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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #19153

Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis

From rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis
Date 2013-01-25 09:38 -0500
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <kdurrf$bs5$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (4 earlier) <ac332281-5f87-463a-8bcd-de34e1cb5f90@t6g2000pba.googlegroups.com> <kdlhv8$25n$1@speranza.aioe.org> <d44429cc-c638-49ce-b490-74005fea0faf@z9g2000vbx.googlegroups.com> <QrOdnZqmZNr8wWPNnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@supernews.com> <kdmplt$daq$1@speranza.aioe.org>

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On 1/22/2013 2:36 PM, Rod Pemberton wrote:
> "Andrew Haley"<andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid>  wrote in message
> news:QrOdnZqmZNr8wWPNnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@supernews.com...
>>
>> The biggest purely technical advantage of a JIT is that
>> compliation is optimized for the exact environment in
>> which a program is run,
>
> A compiler can do that, if implemented.  Most do.

Yep, and that code runs optimally on just that one machine.  Andrew is 
talking about using a common distribution and the JIT optimizing the 
execution for whatever machine it is run on.  In essence, the JIT is the 
compiler back end, but because it is running in only one environment, 
your machine, it can optimize for exactly that one environment without 
any input from you.

...snip...

>> The most advanced JITs will even recompile a routine
>> that is live on the call stack.
>
> Modern processors should be able to block that.  Active code on
> the call stack is part of the typical method behind buffer
> overflow exploits.

You are confused.  The term "buffer overflow" should be the clue.  They 
depend on writing to code space by overflowing a buffer in data space 
and having that data write into the executable region.  At no time does 
this exploit expect to be able to execute code "on the stack".  The two 
concepts are totally unrelated.


>> Compare this with native compilers that typically have no idea
>> of which processor the code will be run on -- could be Pentium
>> Pro, could be K8, could be Sandy Bridge -- and have to do the
>> best they can.
>
> A compiler can query or be told what target to compile for.  I
> prefer telling the compiler what to do instead of having it guess.
> In the case of JIT, as an end-user, I can't tell the JIT what
> target to compile for, if it's incorrect or there is some issue
> with the generated code for the appropriate target.  I'm stuck
> with whatever was implemented, even if broken.

Isn't that true for all software?  If it is broken, it is broken.


>> This isn't a problem when you're compiling a program for
>> yourself, but it is when you're distributing binaries.
>
> No, it's not a problem for code coded in assembly.  Checking the
> execution target and executing appropriate code is done all the
> time in assembly.  It's a problem for lazy HLL programmers who
> refuse to code multiple versions of a routine for each target.
> It's the "one and done" mentality.

You mean adding the specifics of the target optimization to the run time 
code?  That would be *very* inefficient.

Multiple code versions is not a matter of being lazy, it is a logistics 
nightmare.  Most distributions have perhaps two versions, 32 bit and 64 
bit.  Imagine the trouble in managing some dozen or more variations! 
The users will never know which to download.

Rick

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Thread

Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Oliver Bach <decfreak@googlemail.com> - 2013-01-10 17:28 -0800
  Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-10 19:52 -0800
  Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-01-11 03:35 -0500
    Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-14 15:13 -0800
      Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-01-14 21:16 -0500
        Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-15 14:47 -0800
          Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-18 23:24 -0500
  Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 04:08 -0800
  Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-01-11 13:09 -0500
    Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-01-12 11:59 +0100
  Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-13 07:41 +1300
    Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Chris <xrissmith@me.com> - 2013-01-12 21:05 -0800
      Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-13 22:26 +1300
  Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 18:41 -0800
  Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-17 23:42 -0800
    Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-19 18:21 -0800
      Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-20 14:26 +0100
        Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-20 10:58 -0600
        Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-20 15:46 -0800
          Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-21 01:51 -0800
            Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 04:10 -0800
              Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-21 04:45 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-21 04:48 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-21 22:01 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-21 13:42 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-22 02:18 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-22 01:06 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Lauri Alanko <la@iki.fi> - 2013-02-01 04:54 +0000
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-31 19:34 -1000
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-02 16:32 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-02-02 18:17 +0000
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-02 17:51 +0000
            Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-01-21 14:55 +0000
          Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-01-22 03:18 -0500
            Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 01:10 -0800
              Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-22 03:31 -0600
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-22 03:41 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-01-22 14:36 -0500
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-22 17:23 -0600
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-25 09:38 -0500
              Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-22 12:52 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 04:31 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 04:35 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-22 18:22 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-22 09:40 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-22 21:02 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-22 13:30 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-22 23:07 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-22 15:16 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-23 13:07 -0500
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-25 08:33 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-25 16:46 -0500
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-25 23:31 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-26 18:09 -0500
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-27 10:15 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-31 14:41 -0500
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-31 21:03 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-01-31 21:44 +0200
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-31 23:16 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-31 12:47 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-02-01 08:23 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-22 04:48 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-22 17:30 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 04:32 -0800
              Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-01-22 14:35 -0500
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-22 17:29 -0600
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-23 02:21 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-23 04:43 -0600
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-23 03:28 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-23 09:19 -0600
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-23 09:24 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-23 12:01 -0600
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2013-02-04 03:09 -0500
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-25 09:59 -0500
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-26 03:05 -0600
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-26 04:38 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-26 07:19 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-26 13:13 -0600
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-26 17:00 -0500
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis None <vandys@vsta.org> - 2013-01-26 22:04 +0000
            Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2013-01-22 18:20 -0600
              Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 23:25 -0800
              Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-23 03:02 -0600
            Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-24 18:28 -0800
              Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-25 16:57 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-25 08:41 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-01-25 20:04 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-26 09:25 +1300
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-26 13:16 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-30 18:40 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-31 15:15 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-01-31 15:55 +0000
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-02-24 00:57 +0200
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-01-31 09:01 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-31 19:41 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-01 16:08 +0000
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-02 02:16 +0000
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-02 16:38 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-04 14:50 +0000
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-02-06 00:32 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-06 19:39 +0100

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