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Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis

From Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid>
Subject Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
References (4 earlier) <ac332281-5f87-463a-8bcd-de34e1cb5f90@t6g2000pba.googlegroups.com> <kdlhv8$25n$1@speranza.aioe.org> <d44429cc-c638-49ce-b490-74005fea0faf@z9g2000vbx.googlegroups.com> <QrOdnZqmZNr8wWPNnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@supernews.com> <kdmplt$daq$1@speranza.aioe.org>
Message-ID <Mc6dnf2Fjp7_gmLNnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@supernews.com> (permalink)
Date 2013-01-22 17:23 -0600

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Rod Pemberton <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> wrote:
> "Andrew Haley" <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote in message
> news:QrOdnZqmZNr8wWPNnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@supernews.com...
>> Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> > There's a point to JIT too, though there's less of a benefit
>> > (just my opinion) - applications start up much much much
>> > faster if the entire application does not have to be compiled
>> > end-to-end.
>>
>> The biggest purely technical advantage of a JIT is that
>> compliation is optimized for the exact environment in
>> which a program is run,
> 
> A compiler can do that, if implemented.  Most do.

You haven't been paying attention.

>> [...] and the characteristics of the dataset it's being run on.
>> You can't do that ahead of time.
> 
> What language requires information from the dataset in order to
> optimize the code? 

All of them.  Compilers have to guess all the time about the dynamic
execution frequency of code.  Sometimes they get it right, sometimes
not.  When you have a JIT, you know.

> ...  I.e., that defeats the purpose of having code in the first
> place.  Separation of code and data affects all sorts of computer
> science concepts: Harvard architecture, data independence, locality
> of reference, etc.

What rubbish.  The whole point is that different optimizations are
possible if you know the dynamic types of the objects you're working
on.  And, later in the run, you can recompile as things change.  You
can specially optimize hot paths through the code, and so on.

>> The most advanced JITs will even recompile a routine that is live
>> on the call stack.
> 
> Modern processors should be able to block that.  Active code on
> the call stack is part of the typical method behind buffer
> overflow exploits.

No, the code is not on the call stack: the activation record is on the
call stack.

>> Compare this with native compilers that typically have no idea
>> of which processor the code will be run on -- could be Pentium
>> Pro, could be K8, could be Sandy Bridge -- and have to do the
>> best they can.
> 
> A compiler can query or be told what target to compile for.  I
> prefer telling the compiler what to do instead of having it guess.
> In the case of JIT, as an end-user, I can't tell the JIT what
> target to compile for, if it's incorrect or there is some issue
> with the generated code for the appropriate target.

It's not incorrect.  The JIT knows what machine it's running on;
there's no need to guess.

> I'm stuck with whatever was implemented, even if broken.
> 
>> This isn't a problem when you're compiling a program for
>> yourself, but it is when you're distributing binaries.
> 
> No, it's not a problem for code coded in assembly.  Checking the
> execution target and executing appropriate code is done all the time
> in assembly.  It's a problem for lazy HLL programmers who refuse to
> code multiple versions of a routine for each target.  It's the "one
> and done" mentality.

This is meaningless nonsense.  The whole point of a compiler, JIT or
otherwise, is to generate code from a high-level language.

Andrew.

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Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Oliver Bach <decfreak@googlemail.com> - 2013-01-10 17:28 -0800
  Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-10 19:52 -0800
  Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-01-11 03:35 -0500
    Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-14 15:13 -0800
      Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-01-14 21:16 -0500
        Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-15 14:47 -0800
          Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-18 23:24 -0500
  Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 04:08 -0800
  Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-01-11 13:09 -0500
    Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-01-12 11:59 +0100
  Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-13 07:41 +1300
    Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Chris <xrissmith@me.com> - 2013-01-12 21:05 -0800
      Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-13 22:26 +1300
  Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 18:41 -0800
  Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-17 23:42 -0800
    Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-19 18:21 -0800
      Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-20 14:26 +0100
        Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-20 10:58 -0600
        Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-20 15:46 -0800
          Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-21 01:51 -0800
            Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 04:10 -0800
              Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-21 04:45 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-21 04:48 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-21 22:01 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-21 13:42 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-22 02:18 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-22 01:06 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Lauri Alanko <la@iki.fi> - 2013-02-01 04:54 +0000
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-31 19:34 -1000
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-02 16:32 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-02-02 18:17 +0000
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-02 17:51 +0000
            Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-01-21 14:55 +0000
          Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-01-22 03:18 -0500
            Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 01:10 -0800
              Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-22 03:31 -0600
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-22 03:41 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-01-22 14:36 -0500
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-22 17:23 -0600
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-25 09:38 -0500
              Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-22 12:52 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 04:31 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 04:35 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-22 18:22 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-22 09:40 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-22 21:02 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-22 13:30 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-22 23:07 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-22 15:16 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-23 13:07 -0500
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-25 08:33 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-25 16:46 -0500
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-25 23:31 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-26 18:09 -0500
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-27 10:15 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-31 14:41 -0500
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-31 21:03 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-01-31 21:44 +0200
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-31 23:16 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-31 12:47 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-02-01 08:23 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-22 04:48 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-22 17:30 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 04:32 -0800
              Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-01-22 14:35 -0500
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-22 17:29 -0600
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-23 02:21 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-23 04:43 -0600
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-23 03:28 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-23 09:19 -0600
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-23 09:24 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-23 12:01 -0600
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2013-02-04 03:09 -0500
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-25 09:59 -0500
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-26 03:05 -0600
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-26 04:38 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-26 07:19 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-26 13:13 -0600
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-26 17:00 -0500
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis None <vandys@vsta.org> - 2013-01-26 22:04 +0000
            Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2013-01-22 18:20 -0600
              Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 23:25 -0800
              Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-23 03:02 -0600
            Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-24 18:28 -0800
              Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-25 16:57 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-25 08:41 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-01-25 20:04 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-26 09:25 +1300
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-26 13:16 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-30 18:40 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-31 15:15 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-01-31 15:55 +0000
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-02-24 00:57 +0200
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-01-31 09:01 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-31 19:41 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-01 16:08 +0000
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-02 02:16 +0000
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-02 16:38 +0100
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-04 14:50 +0000
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-02-06 00:32 -0800
                Re: Examples of current implementations in Forth for bachelor thesis Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-06 19:39 +0100

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