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Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth

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anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
> At EuroForth Andrew Read gave an impromptu talk where he suggested a
> next-standard effort that would not be shackled by

Are there any slides or video about this?

> the talk got me thinking about what is essential in the current line
> of Forth standards 

I'd be interested in your thoughts about what is essential in the
current line of Forth standards, and which parts if any of that are NOT
essential to a (subjective) higher-level concept of what Forth is.

> Possibly essential: The syntax difference between machine Forth and
> Color Forth (color that indicates how to text-interpret the string)
> cannot be accommodated in the current line of standards; while it's
> just syntax ...

Is it really just syntax?  I don't really understand how Colorforth
works but I gather that it separates "edit time" from "compile time"
much more than traditional or ANS Forth does.  Also its treatment of
macros (black words) seems different, though I don't know exactly how.
I've been wondering about this.

> Pretty essential: Statically determined stack depth: Requiring that,
> as sketched for PAF, 

At that point maybe you want to depart from Forth tradition and have
named stack slots (ouch!).  I do think dynamic stack effects (while
misused sometimes) have valid uses, like variable sized arg lists, e.g.

   : foo ( a1 a2 .. an n -- ) ...     \ n is # of args

Most languages have some mechanism for that, such as varargs in C etc.

Also, do you want for conforming implementations to actually enforce
this rule?  Overall it sounds like a difficult sell even though PAF and
other compilers would benefit from it.

> Static type checking: StrongForth did that

This also seems like a hard sell, since StrongForth didn't get much
traction.  It also sounds harder to implement than traditional Forth.
Do you really think of it as essential?  

> Floats: There is one suggestion (and a Russion system that works this
> way) to use floats as stack items, with words like + working on
> floats, and IIRC addresses represented by NaNs (or maybe by
> interpreting the bit pattern as address). 

No please don't do that ;-).  It's one of the fail points of Javascript
and older versions of Lua and maybe others as well.  And users of low
level languages like Forth will often expect to be able to twiddle the
bits in cells.

> Dynamically typed stack items (e.g., Factor, 8th, Oforth,...)

I wonder how many users of those systems actually started out as Forth
users.  I haven't tried them since I lump them with other dynamic
languages such as Python, so their attractiveness mostly comes from
features like GUI toolkit integration, which I haven't needed so far.
If Forth users are actually willing to try this approach, it might be a
good way to move the community forward.

Another idea is to have a standard Forth with pseudo-static typing:
i.e., have a testing/debugging mode where every cell is accompanied by a
tag field that's checked at runtime, signalling errors that might
otherwise be missed.  Then once debugged, you can turn off the checks.
No idea how useful this is.

Meanwhile some other imho essentials missing from your list: 1) design
changes to accomodate processors with flash program storage, 2) changes
to accomodate cross-compilation, 3, 4...) (forgot).

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Essential properties of current standard Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-09-15 14:19 +0000
  Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-09-15 17:58 -0700
    Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth tabcomputing@gmail.com - 2016-09-24 18:48 -0700
      Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-09-24 21:47 -0700
        Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth tabcomputing@gmail.com - 2016-09-25 08:11 -0700
          Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-09-25 20:14 -0700
            Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-09-26 11:12 +0200
              Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-09-26 12:16 +0100
                Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-09-26 14:30 +0200
                Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth Coos Haak <htrofhc@gmail.com> - 2016-09-26 15:10 +0200
                Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-09-26 16:07 +0200
                Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-09-26 13:43 +0000
                Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-09-26 16:36 +0200
        Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@zxdehrnyya.cam> - 2016-09-25 15:18 -0400
  Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth anotherreepca@gmail.com - 2016-09-18 09:01 -0700
    Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-09-18 11:35 -0500
      Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth minforth@arcor.de - 2016-09-19 03:21 -0700
        Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-09-19 09:49 -0500
          Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth minforth@arcor.de - 2016-09-19 12:38 -0700
            Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-09-20 11:23 -0500
              Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-09-20 12:55 -0700
                Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-09-21 02:24 +0200
              Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-09-20 14:52 -0700
      Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-09-19 10:12 -0700
        Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-09-19 12:40 -0500
    Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-09-21 10:09 +0000
  Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-09-19 13:29 +0200
    Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-09-19 07:16 -0700
    Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-09-19 17:10 +0000
  Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2016-09-20 22:43 -0700
    Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-09-21 12:39 +0000
      Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-09-22 11:40 -0700
        Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2016-09-23 09:28 -0700
      Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2016-09-23 09:19 -0700
  Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-09-23 20:11 -0700
    Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-09-24 10:55 +0000
      Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth Matthias Trute <matthias.trute@gmail.com> - 2016-09-24 11:14 -0700
        Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-09-25 03:01 -0500
          Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth Matthias Trute <matthias.trute@gmail.com> - 2016-09-25 02:21 -0700
            Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-09-25 14:01 -0700
            Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-09-25 15:04 -0700
              Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-09-25 17:39 -0700
                Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-09-25 17:56 -0700
              Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2016-09-25 20:34 -0700
                Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-09-25 22:37 -0700
              Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-09-26 02:34 -0500
                Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-09-26 14:04 +0000
                Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-09-26 10:40 -0500
                Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-09-28 06:43 +0000
                Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-09-28 04:48 -0500
          Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-09-26 14:58 +0000
            Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-09-26 11:02 -0500
              Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-09-26 23:28 +0000
                Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-09-27 03:49 -0500
              Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-09-27 11:43 +0100
        Standardization (was: Essential properties of current standard Forth) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-09-26 16:01 +0000
          Re: Standardization (was: Essential properties of current standard Forth) stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-09-26 20:06 +0000
            Re: Standardization (was: Essential properties of current standard Forth) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-09-27 14:49 +0000
              Re: Standardization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-09-27 11:20 -0500
              Re: Standardization (was: Essential properties of current standard Forth) stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-09-28 12:07 +0000
                Re: Standardization (was: Essential properties of current standard Forth) Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-09-29 02:07 +0000
                Re: Standardization (was: Essential properties of current standard Forth) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-09-28 19:40 -0700
                Re: Standardization (was: Essential properties of current standard Forth) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-09-29 15:22 -0700
                Re: Standardization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-09-29 04:12 -0500
                Re: Standardization (was: Essential properties of current standard Forth) stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-09-29 10:15 +0000
                Re: Standardization (was: Essential properties of current standard Forth) Matthias Trute <matthias.trute@gmail.com> - 2016-09-29 10:38 -0700
      Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth trans <transfire@gmail.com> - 2016-09-26 18:04 -0700
        Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-09-27 13:37 +0000
  Re: Essential properties of current standard Forth jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2016-09-28 13:54 -0700

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