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More problems with lcc-win

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  More problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 00:29 -0700
    Re: More problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-15 11:27 +0100
      Re: More problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-15 13:18 +0000
        Re: More problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-15 15:22 +0100
          Re: More problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-15 08:26 -0700
      Re: More problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-15 08:25 -0700
        Re: More problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-15 16:46 +0100
          Re: More problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-15 17:07 +0100
            Re: More problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-15 09:52 -0700
              Re: More problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-15 16:57 +0000
                Re: More problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-15 10:11 -0700
                  Re: More problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-15 18:17 +0000
              Re: More problems with lcc-win Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2017-03-15 17:21 +0000
                Re: More problems with lcc-win GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 18:42 +0100
                  Re: More problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-15 18:20 +0000
                    Re: More problems with lcc-win Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2017-03-15 18:59 +0000
                  Re: More problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-15 18:20 +0000
                    Re: More problems with lcc-win GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-03-15 19:39 +0100
                    Re: More problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-15 12:44 -0700
                      Re: More problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-15 20:19 +0000
                        Re: More problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-16 10:03 +0100
                          Re: More problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-16 11:15 +0000
                            Re: More problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-16 11:32 +0000
                            Re: More problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-16 13:41 +0100
                    Re: More problems with lcc-win GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-03-16 08:52 +0100
                    Re: More problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-16 09:57 +0100
                  Re: More problems with lcc-win antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2017-03-16 13:53 +0000
                    Re: More problems with lcc-win jm.bourguet@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 07:14 -0700
                    Re: More problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-16 08:59 -0700
                Re: More problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-15 12:43 -0700
                  Re: More problems with lcc-win Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2017-03-15 20:39 +0000
              Re: More problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-15 23:56 +0100
          Re: More problems with lcc-win Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2017-03-15 16:33 +0000
            Re: More problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-15 17:47 +0100
              Re: More problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-15 10:04 -0700
                Re: More problems with lcc-win jacob navia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-16 00:52 +0100
                  Re: More problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-15 18:02 -0700
                    Re: More problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-15 18:23 -0700
                      Re: More problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-17 13:45 -0700
                        Re: More problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-18 00:23 +0100
                          Re: More problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-18 00:29 +0100
                            Re: More problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-18 00:31 +0100
                            Re: More problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-17 17:01 -0700
                              Re: More problems with lcc-win Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2017-03-20 16:41 +0000
                                Re: More problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-20 18:32 +0100
                                  Re: More problems with lcc-win Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2017-03-20 18:18 +0000
                                    Re: More problems with lcc-win bart4858@gmail.com - 2017-03-20 12:31 -0700
                                      Re: More problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-20 21:05 +0100
                                        Re: More problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-20 20:45 +0000
                                      Re: More problems with lcc-win Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-03-20 20:18 +0000
                                      Re: More problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-21 09:56 +0100
                                        Re: More problems with lcc-win Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2017-03-21 21:08 +0000
                                          Re: More problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-21 22:19 +0100
                                            Re: More problems with lcc-win Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2017-03-22 06:29 +0000
                                          Re: More problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-03-21 16:12 -0700
                                            Re: More problems with lcc-win gordonb.s97bd@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2017-03-24 01:13 -0500
                                              Re: More problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-03-24 08:16 -0700
                                            Re: More problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-26 03:18 -0700
                                              Re: More problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-26 12:35 +0100
                                                Re: More problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-29 05:17 -0700
                                              Re: More problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-03-26 14:04 -0700
                                                Re: More problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-29 05:48 -0700
                                          Re: More problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-21 23:21 +0000
                                            Re: More problems with lcc-win Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2017-03-22 06:18 +0000
                                          Re: More problems with lcc-win gordonb.1neik@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2017-03-21 18:45 -0500
                                          Re: More problems with lcc-win jm.bourguet@gmail.com - 2017-03-22 01:02 -0700
                                          Re: More problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-22 10:35 +0100
                                          Re: More problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-22 13:21 +0000
                                            Re: More problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-22 14:08 +0000
                                              Re: More problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-22 15:37 +0000
                                          Re: More problems with lcc-win Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2017-03-22 21:09 +0000
                                      Re: More problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-21 13:09 +0000
                                        Re: More problems with lcc-win Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2017-03-21 21:15 +0000
                          Re: More problems with lcc-win Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-18 12:44 +1300
                          Re: More problems with lcc-win jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2017-03-17 16:59 -0700
                        Re: charsets Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2017-03-18 18:30 +0100
                  Re: More problems with lcc-win David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-03-16 10:18 +0100
              Re: More problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 15:06 -0700
                Re: More problems with lcc-win Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2017-03-15 22:23 +0000
                  Re: More problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 15:43 -0700
                    Re: More problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-15 23:53 +0100
                      Re: More problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 08:35 -0700
                    Re: More problems with lcc-win Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2017-03-15 23:13 +0000
                      Re: More problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 06:28 -0700
                        Re: More problems with lcc-win Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2017-03-16 16:56 +0000
                          Re: More problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 14:53 -0700
                Re: More problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-15 16:18 -0700
                  Re: More problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-16 18:03 +0000
                    Re: More problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-16 19:29 +0100
                      Re: More problems with lcc-win Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-03-16 21:38 +0000
                      Re: More problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-17 08:58 -0700
                  Re: More problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-17 09:45 -0700
                    Re: More problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-17 10:33 -0700
                      Re: More problems with lcc-win "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-03-17 14:20 -0400
                      Re: More problems with lcc-win GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-03-17 20:18 +0100
                        Re: More problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 00:44 -0700
                          Re: More problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-18 13:31 +0000
                            Re: More problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 15:54 -0700
                            Re: More problems with lcc-win scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-03-20 13:27 +0000
                          Re: More problems with lcc-win GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-03-18 15:15 +0100
                            Re: More problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 11:39 -0700
                              Re: More problems with lcc-win GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-03-18 20:11 +0100
                                Re: More problems with lcc-win BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-03-18 19:45 +0000
                                  Re: More problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-20 00:35 -0700
                                Re: More problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 14:22 -0700
                                  Re: More problems with lcc-win GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-03-18 22:46 +0100
                                    Re: More problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 16:12 -0700
                                    Re: More problems with lcc-win supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-03-18 18:01 -0700
                                      Re: More problems with lcc-win GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-03-19 03:21 +0100
                                        Re: More problems with lcc-win Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-03-19 15:32 +1300
                                      Re: More problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-19 02:17 -0700
      Re: More problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 14:25 -0700
        Re: More problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-15 23:49 +0100
    Re: More problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-15 11:28 +0100
      Re: More problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 14:35 -0700
        Re: More problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-15 23:44 +0100
    Re: More problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-15 13:06 +0100
      Re: More problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 14:43 -0700
        Re: More problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-15 23:43 +0100
    Re: More problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-15 13:19 +0100
      Re: More problems with lcc-win mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 14:50 -0700
    Re: More problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-15 08:24 -0700
      Re: More problems with lcc-win jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2017-03-15 16:47 +0100
        Re: More problems with lcc-win jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2017-03-15 09:04 -0700
        Re: More problems with lcc-win Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-03-15 09:15 -0700
          Re: More problems with lcc-win gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2017-03-15 19:59 +0000
        Re: More problems with lcc-win Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2017-03-15 16:32 +0000

Page 4 of 7 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7  Next page →

#107119

On Sunday, March 26, 2017 at 5:18:49 AM UTC-5, mertes...@gmail.com wrote:
> supercat wrote:
>>   ... In MS-DOS, if a program outputs a prompt,
>> reads a character without echo, outputs another prompt, and reads a line,
>> the first character will not echo to the console, and the line of input will
>> echo following the second prompt.  This behavior will occur even if the user
>> typed the characters before the program began execution.
>> 
>> Is there any way to achieve comparable behavior in a Unix console application?
> 
> With standard C such things are not possible. When you use Posix
> (with terminfo, termcap, curses, tcsetattr, poll, etc.) and Win32
> (with ReadConsoleInputW, etc.) then you can achieve comparable
> behaviour for Unix (LInux, BSD, OS X, etc.) and Windows.

Can programs in Unix achieve such behavior even with input that's typed
before they start execution?

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#107376

Am Sonntag, 26. März 2017 23:05:02 UTC+2 schrieb supe...@casperkitty.com:
> On Sunday, March 26, 2017 at 5:18:49 AM UTC-5, mertes...@gmail.com wrote:
> > supercat wrote:
> >>   ... In MS-DOS, if a program outputs a prompt,
> >> reads a character without echo, outputs another prompt, and reads a line,
> >> the first character will not echo to the console, and the line of input will
> >> echo following the second prompt.  This behavior will occur even if the user
> >> typed the characters before the program began execution.
> >> 
> >> Is there any way to achieve comparable behavior in a Unix console application?
> > 
> > With standard C such things are not possible. When you use Posix
> > (with terminfo, termcap, curses, tcsetattr, poll, etc.) and Win32
> > (with ReadConsoleInputW, etc.) then you can achieve comparable
> > behaviour for Unix (LInux, BSD, OS X, etc.) and Windows.
> 
> Can programs in Unix achieve such behavior even with input that's typed
> before they start execution?

A program should do something before it is executed?
This sounds strange.

In principle an operating system could maintain the typed keys and
a program could decide what to do with this keys. As a consequence
your would not see what you typed, when the program is busy.

In the old days many remote terminals were connected to Unix.
You could enter a line locally (and you would see what you typed).
To get single key strokes without echo the terminal driver and/or
the terminal must be in a different mode.

The Seed7 console driver does exactly that. The terminal is put
into "single key strokes without echo" mode (with tcsetattr, etc.).
When you read lines the echo is done by the library (written in
Seed7). When you read single keypresses no echo is produced.

If a Seed7 program decides to read from standard input instead
of the console no driver is used and you get the lines as they
are typed (with echo).

Back in the old days sending single keys (without echo) to a
program was considered an unnecessary overhead. Sending whole
lines over the serial line allowed more terminals to be connected.

I have heard of a story where Control Data (with line oriented
terminals) lost a contract against IBM (where the terminal sent
a whole screen of data). The bigger data blocks allowed to connect
more terminals. Fortunately this times are over.


Regards,
Thomas Mertes

-- 
Seed7 Homepage: http://seed7.sourceforge.net
Seed7 - The extensible programming language: User defined statements
and operators, abstract data types, templates without special
syntax, OO with interfaces and multiple dispatch, statically typed,
interpreted or compiled, portable, runs under linux/unix/windows.

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#106719

On 21/03/2017 21:08, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
> On Tue, 2017-03-21, David Brown wrote:

> Still wouldn't call it "appallingly bad keyboard support" though. I
> wonder what Bart is referring to.

It's being able to access special keys, together with combinations of 
ctrl, shift and alt.

So PageUp might work, and Ctrl-PageUp, and even Alt-PageUp, but not 
Shift-PageUp. On another Linux, only PageUp works; shift keys have no 
effect. Support is patchy, and variable across Linuxes.

Another example, pressing Enter returns 10. Ctrl-Enter returns 10. 
Shift-Enter returns 10. Ctrl-J returns 10. Ctrl-M returns 10. But 
Alt-Enter returns Esc-10.

Special keys are returned with as an escape sequence starting with 27. 
But different schemes are used. F1 to F4 might use one; F5 onwards 
another. Or schemes change across Linuxes even for the same function keys.

The program below can be used to give an idea of what is supported.

-----------------------------------------

#include <termios.h>
#include <stdio.h>
#include <stddef.h>

static struct termios old, new;

/* Initialize new terminal i/o settings */
void initTermios(int echo)
{
   tcgetattr(0, &old); /* grab old terminal i/o settings */
   new = old; /* make new settings same as old settings */
   new.c_lflag &= ~ICANON; /* disable buffered i/o */
   new.c_lflag &= echo ? ECHO : ~ECHO; /* set echo mode */
   tcsetattr(0, TCSANOW, &new); /* use these new terminal i/o settings 
now */
}

/* Restore old terminal i/o settings */
void resetTermios(void)
{
   tcsetattr(0, TCSANOW, &old);
}

/* Read 1 character - echo defines echo mode */
char getch_(int echo)
{
   char ch;
   initTermios(echo);
   ch = getchar();
   resetTermios();
   return ch;
}

int main(void) {
int c;

while(1) {
     c=getch_(0);

     if (c==27)
         printf("\nESC ");
     else if (c>=32 && c<127)
         printf("%c",c);
     else
         printf("<%d>",c);
     fflush(stdout);
}

}

------------------------------

-- 
bartc

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#106742

On Tue, 2017-03-21, BartC wrote:
> On 21/03/2017 21:08, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
>> On Tue, 2017-03-21, David Brown wrote:
>
>> Still wouldn't call it "appallingly bad keyboard support" though. I
>> wonder what Bart is referring to.
>
> It's being able to access special keys, together with combinations of 
> ctrl, shift and alt.
>
> So PageUp might work, and Ctrl-PageUp, and even Alt-PageUp, but not 
> Shift-PageUp. On another Linux, only PageUp works; shift keys have no 
> effect. Support is patchy, and variable across Linuxes.

Ah, *that*.  For example the difference between how you can control
Emacs running in an X11 window, and in a terminal.

I agree that situation isn't good, even though there are reasons it's
like that. I've gotten used to it over the decades, but some of it
still gets in my way.

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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#106723

> Still wouldn't call it "appallingly bad keyboard support" though. I
> wonder what Bart is referring to.

I'd like to see "appallingly *GOOD* keyboard support" for UTF-8.

(1) You can type *ALL* of the characters (including all of the
ancient scripts like Linear A and Egyptian Hieroglyphics).

(2) You do not have to memorize codepoints (hex, decimal, octal,
or any other base) although some kind of escape allowing entry of
codes to be assigned in the future by code is desirable.

(3) It comes with a complete set of Unicode fonts, which by itself
is something I don't think anyone has achieved yet.

(4) The keyboard doesn't take up much more in desk/lap/screen  space
than current keyboards do today.

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#106744

Le mardi 21 mars 2017 22:08:21 UTC+1, Jorgen Grahn a écrit :

> I suspect you're not talking about x.org's XKB, which almost drove me
> crazy trying to understand it well enough to add a few things[0].

XKB for sure was lacking good documentation when I last looked at it.  I haven't made my mind if it was overengineered in general or if it was just my purpose which wasn't part of their design.  I ended by creating a single file which contained all the definition I wanted and avoided to use the mechanisms they use to share things between keyboard definitions.

> And I still haven't figured out how to let each user choose her keymap,
> without using one of those Windows-like desktop environments.

I've just replaced xmodmap by xkbcomp in some initialization files.

Yours,

-- 
Jean-Marc

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#106750

On 21/03/17 22:08, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
> On Tue, 2017-03-21, David Brown wrote:
>> On 20/03/17 20:31, bart4858@gmail.com wrote:
> ...
>>> A world dominated by Unix, Linux, Bash, configure, shell commands,
>>> wildcard expansions, casE sensitive (case sensitive for those who ..
>>> never mind), /etc, root, C language+gcc+Linux so tightly bound
>>> together you cannot prise them apart, auto-conf tools, appallingly
>>> bad keyboard support, a million different distributions, a hundred
>>> different desktop GUIs - or none at all.....?
>>>
>>> More like the stuff of nightmares. If it happened, then time to give
>>> up programming and do more work in the garden I think.
>>
>> A world dominated by /any/ single OS is the stuff of nightmares.
>> Variety and competition leads to progress, innovation, and swapping
>> inspiration and ideas between systems.  Windows copies freely from MacOS
>> and *nix (though it took them 20 years to realise that IT professionals
>> need a decent command line, and 30 years to realise that virtual
>> desktops are useful), just as MacOS and *nix copy ideas from Windows and
>> each other.
> 
> Some of us Unix fiends would prefer if that competition came from some
> new, /interesting/ OS, and wasn't based on monopoly-like situations.

I can agree on that.  It is hard for completely new OS's to gain
traction in the marketplace, at least in the PC world (the embedded
world has vary more varied needs, and far more varied OS's).  But there
has been a lot of fine ideas from systems like AmigaOS, RiscOS, Next,
BeOS, etc. (Sorry if the capitalisation is not correct on some of these.)

> 
>> But of all your rants above, the one I cannot comprehend is "bad
>> keyboard support".  Here are a few things I can type directly with my
>> keyboard in Linux that I cannot do with Windows (I've got a Norwegian
>> keyboard layout, so both systems can write ÅØÆ):
> ...
>>
>> And if I want to change them, or add new keys, it's just a simple change
>> to a text file.
> 
> I suspect you're not talking about x.org's XKB, which almost drove me
> crazy trying to understand it well enough to add a few things[0].
> 
> And I still haven't figured out how to let each user choose her keymap,
> without using one of those Windows-like desktop environments.

Sorry - I use Gnome2, Mate or Cinnamon for most purposes, which make it
fairly easy to change languages or keymaps.  (I use the command line
heavily within these - but I don't use plain terminals much except for
serious recovery work, or setting up systems that are normally
headless.)  And while I have a few computers that are shared amongst
different users, they also share the keyboard and therefore the keyboard
setup!

> 
> Still wouldn't call it "appallingly bad keyboard support" though. I
> wonder what Bart is referring to.
> 
> /Jorgen
> 
> [0] More things than I wanted to/could add via xmodmap(1). I use an
>     English layout, but with the latin-1 extras and some other symbols
>     on Alt-<key>, like the xterm eightBitInput option.
> 

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#106755

Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> writes:
>On Tue, 2017-03-21, David Brown wrote:

>
>> But of all your rants above, the one I cannot comprehend is "bad
>> keyboard support".  Here are a few things I can type directly with my
>> keyboard in Linux that I cannot do with Windows (I've got a Norwegian
>> keyboard layout, so both systems can write ÅØÆ):
>...
>>
>> And if I want to change them, or add new keys, it's just a simple change
>> to a text file.
>
>I suspect you're not talking about x.org's XKB, which almost drove me
>crazy trying to understand it well enough to add a few things[0].
>
>And I still haven't figured out how to let each user choose her keymap,
>without using one of those Windows-like desktop environments.

man 1 xmodmap

In my ~/.xsession:

# Remap the control and shift-lock keys, but only for the native
# display
#
if [ "$DISPLAY" = ":0" -o \
     "$DISPLAY" = "unix:0" ] ;
then
        xmodmap ~/.modmap
fi


~/.modmap contains:
!
! Swap Caps_Lock and Control_L
!
remove Lock = Caps_Lock
remove Control = Control_L
keysym Control_L = Caps_Lock
keysym Caps_Lock = Control_L
add Lock = Caps_Lock
add Control = Control_L

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#106757

On 22/03/2017 13:21, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> writes:
>> On Tue, 2017-03-21, David Brown wrote:
>
>>
>>> But of all your rants above, the one I cannot comprehend is "bad
>>> keyboard support".  Here are a few things I can type directly with my
>>> keyboard in Linux that I cannot do with Windows (I've got a Norwegian
>>> keyboard layout, so both systems can write ÅØÆ):
>> ...
>>>
>>> And if I want to change them, or add new keys, it's just a simple change
>>> to a text file.
>>
>> I suspect you're not talking about x.org's XKB, which almost drove me
>> crazy trying to understand it well enough to add a few things[0].
>>
>> And I still haven't figured out how to let each user choose her keymap,
>> without using one of those Windows-like desktop environments.
>
> man 1 xmodmap
>
> In my ~/.xsession:
>
> # Remap the control and shift-lock keys, but only for the native
> # display
> #
> if [ "$DISPLAY" = ":0" -o \
>      "$DISPLAY" = "unix:0" ] ;
> then
>         xmodmap ~/.modmap
> fi
>
>
> ~/.modmap contains:
> !
> ! Swap Caps_Lock and Control_L
> !
> remove Lock = Caps_Lock
> remove Control = Control_L
> keysym Control_L = Caps_Lock
> keysym Caps_Lock = Control_L
> add Lock = Caps_Lock
> add Control = Control_L
>

What did you do when you used to go to an internet cafe; did you modify 
all their machines too? What about when using machines belonging to 
others? And what about when someone uses your machine, and overrides all 
your settings with theirs?

Keyboard setup (eg. making " and @ match their respective keys) is 
usually done once on a new machine, then you forget about it.

This sort of confirms what I suspect that Linux people spend too much 
time doing configuration...

-- 
Bartc

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#106765

BartC <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
>On 22/03/2017 13:21, Scott Lurndal wrote:

>>>
>>> And I still haven't figured out how to let each user choose her keymap,
>>> without using one of those Windows-like desktop environments.
>>
>> man 1 xmodmap
>>
>> In my ~/.xsession:
>>
>> # Remap the control and shift-lock keys, but only for the native
>> # display
>> #
>> if [ "$DISPLAY" = ":0" -o \
>>      "$DISPLAY" = "unix:0" ] ;
>> then
>>         xmodmap ~/.modmap
>> fi
>>
>>
>> ~/.modmap contains:
>> !
>> ! Swap Caps_Lock and Control_L
>> !
>> remove Lock = Caps_Lock
>> remove Control = Control_L
>> keysym Control_L = Caps_Lock
>> keysym Caps_Lock = Control_L
>> add Lock = Caps_Lock
>> add Control = Control_L
>>
>
>What did you do when you used to go to an internet cafe;

 Why would I go to an internet cafe?


> did you modify 
>all their machines too? What about when using machines belonging to 
>others?

  Why would I use a machine belonging to others?  In the infrequent
case where I log into a multiuser system, I use ssh and tunnel the
X11 protocol back to my desktop/laptop.

? And what about when someone uses your machine, and overrides all 
>your settings with theirs?

  Why would someone use my machine?  Even if they did, they'd log
into the system as themselves, not me, so the keyboard configuration
would be up to them.   '.xsession' is run when you log in.

  Unix/Linux systems were designed from day one as multiuser systems,
unlike the mess from redmond.

>
>This sort of confirms what I suspect that Linux people spend too much 
>time doing configuration...

Total nonsense.  I've been using the above .xsession file since 1989,
on both unix systems and linux systems from pretty much
every major vendor and haven't had to touch the keyboard configuration
stuff once in the last 28 years.

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#106782

Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> writes:

> I suspect you're not talking about x.org's XKB, which almost drove me
> crazy trying to understand it well enough to add a few things[0].
>
> And I still haven't figured out how to let each user choose her keymap,
> without using one of those Windows-like desktop environments.

xmodmap is baroque, but not completely impenetrable.

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#106660

bart4858@gmail.com writes:
>On Monday, 20 March 2017 18:18:19 UTC, Richard Heathfield  wrote:
>> On 20/03/17 17:32, jacobnavia wrote:
>> > Le 20/03/2017 =C3=A0 17:41, Richard Heathfield a =C3=A9crit :
>> >> I discovered that it was indeed sending in windows-1252, which is
>> >> bizarre because it's never been anything other than a Linux system
>> >
>> > My Thunderbird is under Mac OS X since 2010... But you can't get rid of
>> > windows anyway.
>>=20
>> A man can dream, can't he?
>
>A world dominated by Unix, Linux, Bash, configure, shell commands, wildcard=
> expansions, casE sensitive (case sensitive for those who .. never mind), /=
>etc, root, C language+gcc+Linux so tightly bound together you cannot prise =
>them apart, auto-conf tools, appallingly bad keyboard support, a million di=
>fferent distributions, a hundred different desktop GUIs - or none at all...=
>..?

http://programmer.97things.oreilly.com/wiki/index.php/The_Unix_Tools_Are_Your_Friends

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#106713

On Tue, 2017-03-21, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> bart4858@gmail.com writes:
...
>>A world dominated by Unix, Linux, Bash, configure, shell commands, wildcard=
>> expansions, casE sensitive (case sensitive for those who .. never mind), /=
>>etc, root, C language+gcc+Linux so tightly bound together you cannot prise =
>>them apart, auto-conf tools, appallingly bad keyboard support, a million di=
>>fferent distributions, a hundred different desktop GUIs - or none at all...=
>>..?
>
> http://programmer.97things.oreilly.com/wiki/index.php/The_Unix_Tools_Are_Your_Friends

IMO, Eric Raymond says it better it "The Art of Unix Programming" ...
although he needs a full book to do it.

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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#106409

On 03/18/17 12:23 PM, jacobnavia wrote:
>
> Look I am sending you the message from
> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0)
>    Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0
>
> Why should I use a windows charset?
>
> Because Thunderbird defaults in the news server to encoding in
> "Occidental". You have along list of languages (arab, chines whatever)
> and then "Occidental", what was the default.
>
> And look what?
>
> "Occidental" means in thunderbird "windows"!!!
>
> Mystery solved. I changed the encoding to UTF8, and maybe it will be better.

It was:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
-- 
Ian

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#106412

On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 7:24:04 PM UTC-4, jacobnavia wrote:
...
> Look I am sending you the message from
> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0)
>   Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0
> 
> Why should I use a windows charset?
> 
> Because Thunderbird defaults in the news server to encoding in 
> "Occidental". You have along list of languages (arab, chines whatever) 
> and then "Occidental", what was the default.
> 
> And look what?
> 
> "Occidental" means in thunderbird "windows"!!!
> 
> Mystery solved. I changed the encoding to UTF8, and maybe it will be better.

"Occidental" is probably specific to the French version. Using the English
version (where I think the corresponding term is "Western"), I see the
following:

Edit/Preferences/Display/Formatting/Advanced/Incoming Mail allows a choice
between Unicode(UTF-8), Western(ISO-8859-1), Western(Windows-1252) and 13 other
choices. There's an identical list of options for Outgoing Mail.

When I post a new message, in the pop-up window, Options/Text Encoding offers
me a choice between Unicode, Western, and 24 other options, it doesn't
distinguish between Western(ISO-8859-1), Western(Windows-1252), but it includes
several other encodings not available in the Preferences menu. It defaults to
the choice corresponding to the Preference I specified for Outgoing Mail. When
viewing incoming messages, View/Text Encoding/takes me to the same list of
choices, but the default seems unaffected by my Preferences settings.

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#106443 — Re: charsets

On 17/03/2017 21:45, Keith Thompson wrote:

> Incidentally, I've since noticed that a lot of other posters have
> "charset=windows-1252" in their articles (perhaps because they post from
> Windows?).  I hadn't noticed because most of them only have ASCII
> content, while jacob quite understandably uses some accented letters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows-1252

"Most modern web browsers and e-mail clients treat the media type charset ISO-8859-1 as Windows-1252 to accommodate such mislabeling. This is now standard behavior in the HTML5 specification, which requires that documents advertised as ISO-8859-1 actually be parsed with the Windows-1252 encoding."

Sadly, Mozilla discarded support of 8859-1 and 8859-15 in favor
of Windows-1252.

Regards.

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#106237

On 16/03/17 00:52, jacob navia wrote:
> Le 15/03/2017 à 18:04, Keith Thompson a écrit :
>> (Some of the non-ASCII characters in this followup might
>> not be represented correctly.  jacob, your articles have
>> "charset=windows-1252" in their headers, and apparently my newsreader
>> doesn't recognize that character set.  Would it be possible for
>> you to configure your newsreader to use UTF-8?)
> 
> I am not setting my messages to windows char set please. I am using a
> macintosh pro to post. You are receiving the text as sent by the
> news-eternal-september server.
> 
> In my machine, the text of the message that I sent contains:
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
> 
> Somewhere along the line that gets converted into windows charset.
> Please complain to those guys.
> 

If you go to Thunderbird (since that is what you are using, I believe)
account settings for your news account, under "Server settings" there is
a choice for "default character encoding".  I believe that is used for
new posts.  But for follow-ups, I believe Thunderbird uses what it
thinks the previous post used.  That is not necessarily the same as what
the post /claims/ to have used - Keith's posts claim to be "us-ascii"
yet they contain non-ASCII characters such as your French accented letters.

I don't /think/ the newserver changes the encoding, but maybe it does -
if so, that is interesting and new to me.

One possibility that might help Keith is if it is possible to use
"Western (ISO-8859-1)" or "Western (ISO-8859-15)" instead of
"windows-1252".  They are almost exactly the same, but Emacs probably
prefers an encoding that doesn't have "windows" in its name :-)

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#106183

Am Mittwoch, 15. März 2017 17:47:14 UTC+1 schrieb jacobnavia:
> Le 15/03/2017 à 17:33, Richard Heathfield a écrit :
> > On 15/03/17 15:46, jacobnavia wrote:
> >> Le 15/03/2017 à 16:25, Keith Thompson a écrit :
> >>> jacobnavia writes:
> 
> >> So I changed the function to use a long long and everything is OK, no
> >> need for fseeki64
> >
> > Everything is OK /if/ you no longer require the function to conform to
> > ISO C.
> >
> 
> I do not want to go on with fseeki64, and make another non conforming 
> function. Apparently the standard writers assumed that long would be 64 
> bits, or I do not know what they were thinking, ask them.

AFAIK the standard writers introduced fseeko and ftello, which works
with offsets of type off_t. Off_t does not depend on the size of long
and can be 32-bit or 64-bit.

> In any case fseek works fine with the second argument a long long.

When everybody assumes that fseek expects a long (32-bit) offset
your extended 64-bit functionality will not be used by normal
windows programs. Only when someone ignores, that he programs for
windows, he can use your extended 64-bit functionality of fseek.


Regards,
Thomas Mertes

-- 
Seed7 Homepage: http://seed7.sourceforge.net
Seed7 - The extensible programming language: User defined statements
and operators, abstract data types, templates without special
syntax, OO with interfaces and multiple dispatch, statically typed,
interpreted or compiled, portable, runs under linux/unix/windows. 

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#106187

On 15/03/17 22:06, mertesthomas@gmail.com wrote:
<snip>
>
> AFAIK the standard writers introduced fseeko and ftello, which works
> with offsets of type off_t. Off_t does not depend on the size of long
> and can be 32-bit or 64-bit.

I can find no reference to these functions (fseeko and ftello) in my 
copy of the Standard. Am I out of date again?

-- 
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

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#106193

Am Mittwoch, 15. März 2017 23:23:10 UTC+1 schrieb Richard Heathfield:
> On 15/03/17 22:06, mertesthomas wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> > AFAIK the standard writers introduced fseeko and ftello, which works
> > with offsets of type off_t. Off_t does not depend on the size of long
> > and can be 32-bit or 64-bit.
> 
> I can find no reference to these functions (fseeko and ftello) in my 
> copy of the Standard. Am I out of date again?

See: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/fseek.html


Regards,
Thomas Mertes

-- 
Seed7 Homepage: http://seed7.sourceforge.net
Seed7 - The extensible programming language: User defined statements
and operators, abstract data types, templates without special
syntax, OO with interfaces and multiple dispatch, statically typed,
interpreted or compiled, portable, runs under linux/unix/windows. 

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