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Re: Resources to learn common lisp?

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  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-07-31 07:17 +0800
    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-07-31 12:21 -0300
      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-01 01:48 +0800
        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-05 13:13 -0300
          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-05 21:48 +0000
            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-08-06 09:05 +0200
            Manipulating C code at the AST level, in C (was: Re: Resources to learn common lisp?) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-09 05:33 +0800
              Re: Manipulating C code at the AST level, in C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-08-10 01:11 -0700
                Re: Manipulating C code at the AST level, in C "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-10 13:10 -0700
              Re: Manipulating C code at the AST level, in C Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-10 17:41 -0300
                Re: Manipulating C code at the AST level, in C Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-10 23:53 +0000
                  Re: Manipulating C code at the AST level, in C scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-08-11 14:29 +0000
                  kqueues and port_create() (was: Re: Manipulating C code at the AST level, in C) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-12 07:51 +0800
                    Re: kqueues and port_create() Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-08-11 20:59 -0700
                      Re: kqueues and port_create() Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-12 13:07 +0800
                        Re: kqueues and port_create() Alan Bawden <alan@csail.mit.edu> - 2026-08-12 03:23 -0400
                          Re: kqueues and port_create() Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-12 07:50 +0000
                            Re: kqueues and port_create() Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-13 11:33 +0800
                          Re: kqueues and port_create() Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-08-12 02:22 -0700
                            Re: kqueues and port_create() Alan Bawden <alan@csail.mit.edu> - 2026-08-12 20:55 -0400
                          Re: kqueues and port_create() Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-13 11:37 +0800
                      Re: kqueues and port_create() "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-12 12:59 -0700
                  Re: Manipulating C code at the AST level, in C Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-14 12:26 +0100
                D.N.S. in Common Lisp (was: Re: Manipulating C code at the AST level, in C) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-12 07:59 +0800
                  Re: D.N.S. in Common Lisp Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-12 09:01 -0300
          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-12 13:18 +0800
            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? bixbox <noreply@example.invalid> - 2026-08-12 10:16 +0200
              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-13 02:18 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-08-13 04:56 +0200
                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-12 21:13 -0700
                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-13 12:25 -0300
                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-08-13 19:01 +0200
                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-13 14:50 -0700
                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-14 08:27 -0300
                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-15 03:18 +0000
                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-14 02:47 +0000
                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-08-14 12:20 +0000
                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-16 15:37 -0300
                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-08-14 12:17 +0000
                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-08-14 16:31 +0200
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-13 11:29 +0800
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-08-14 15:30 +0300
                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-08-14 16:45 +0200
                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-08-14 17:15 +0200
                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-08-14 19:51 +0200
                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 12:05 -0700
      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-31 22:46 +0000
        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-01 07:38 +0800
          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-04 22:26 -0400
        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-01 09:08 +0000
          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-08-01 07:49 -0400
            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-01 23:37 +0000
              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-01 16:54 -0700
            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-02 07:39 +0000
          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-04 22:39 -0400
      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-07-31 23:59 -0400
        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-01 16:12 +0800
          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-04 22:50 -0400
            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-05 19:02 +0800
              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-06 19:36 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-09 02:11 +0800
                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-09 18:49 -0400
                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-10 13:08 -0700

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#401097 — Re: kqueues and port_create()

On 12/08/2026 3:23 PM, Alan Bawden wrote:
> Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> writes:
> 
>> On 12/08/2026 11:59 AM, Paul Rubin wrote:
>>> Is this something like io_uring?  Is it just for i/o on open fd's or can
>>> you also use it for stuff like opening files?
>> The kqueue() is for open file descriptors, created as sockets or open
>> files, or anything else the FreeBSD kernel decides is a file.  I'm not
>> aware of any interface to create one and open a file with the same func-
>> tion call.
> 
> I _think_ what Paul was asking was is it possible to get notified when a
> specific file in the file system is opened.  If that's what he's asking,
> then the answer is: yes kqueue/kevent can do that.  You open the file in
> question using O_PATH, and then create a kevent using that descriptor
> with filter EVFILT_VNODE and event NOTE_OPEN.
> 

Thank you.  Are you aware of any book on this subject?  One that teaches
the ins and outs of how to use kqueues in FreeBSD?  Something similar to
/Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment/ by Stevens?
-- 
Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com
https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:;

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#401082 — Re: kqueues and port_create()

On 8/11/2026 8:59 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> writes:
>>    https://man.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?kqueue
> 
> Is this something like io_uring?  Is it just for i/o on open fd's or can
> you also use it for stuff like opening files?

io_uring is meant for io completion. Its more low level than IOCP over 
on the windozer. Heck, on win, we can use it (IOCP) for files and 
sockets. io_uring takes special care with padding and alignment to get 
the mmapped memory to work with the kernel.

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#401155 — Re: Manipulating C code at the AST level, in C

(Given I'm commenting on the content of the online manual on a Linux
system, I'm adding and followingup-to comp.os.linux.misc.)

On 2026-08-11, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:

> On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 17:41:30 -0300, Anton Antimo wrote:
>
>> For select (called unix-fast-select in SBCL), see sb-unix.
>
> select(2) is considered an archaic way of doing things these days,
> because of its ABI limitations. The modern way is poll()
> <https://manpages.debian.org/poll(2)> (POSIX) or even epoll()
> <https://manpages.debian.org/epoll(7)> (Linux-specific).

The online manual here (a GNU/Linux system) says:

    "poll, ppoll - wait for some event on a file descriptor"

Perhaps that should be rewritten. Reading further, it's not singular,
but that description with "*A* file descriptor" does make it sound like
poll is not a suitable replacement for select.

-- 
Nuno Silva

(Not subscribed to comp.lang.c)

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#401044 — D.N.S. in Common Lisp (was: Re: Manipulating C code at the AST level, in C)

On 11/08/2026 4:41 AM, Anton Antimo wrote:
> Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> writes:
> 
>> On 06/08/2026 5:48 AM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>> On Wed, 05 Aug 2026 13:13:42 -0300, Anton Antimo wrote:
>>>
>>>> To be fair, a big part of my struggle is the thick layer of Racket
>>>> on top of POSIX. For instance, try to locate the equivalent
>>>> select-call on it. It's so hard to recognize exactly how your Racket
>>>> maps to the lower level. I understand that may a strong point of
>>>> Racket's design, but it certainly hits my weakness.
>>> Sounds very Java-like. Though perhaps not as irritating as Java.
>>> Compare Python <https://docs.python.org/3/library/select.html> --
>>> that’s less than 10 pages (i.e. number of times I have to hit
>>> Page-Down in the browser) of docs.
>>
>>
>> I admit I'm not sure why the select system call seems to be missing from
>> this selection of networking functions, [...]
> 
> It would be like writing C in Lisp notation.  For select (called
> unix-fast-select in SBCL), see sb-unix.
> 
> (defun wait-for-stdin-select ()
>    (sb-alien:with-alien ((read-fds (sb-alien:struct sb-unix:fd-set)))
>      (sb-unix:fd-zero read-fds)
>      (sb-unix:fd-set 0 read-fds)
>      (format t "Waiting up to 5 seconds for input on stdin... Type something!~%")
>      (force-output)
>      (multiple-value-bind (count err)
>          (sb-unix:unix-fast-select 1 (sb-alien:addr read-fds) nil nil 5 0)
>        (cond
>          ((null count)
>           (format t "Select failed with errno: ~A~%" err))
>          ((zerop count)
>           (format t "Timeout! No input received.~%"))
>          ((sb-unix:fd-isset 0 read-fds)
>           (format t "Data is ready to be read from stdin!~%"))
>          (t
>           (format t "Something else woke up select!~%"))))))
> 
> ;; run it
> (wait-for-stdin-select)

Thank you.  This is indeed helpful.  Unhelpfully, Lawrence is always
talking about some sort of select in Python, and then talks about
polling in Linux, when he knows we don't care about the Linux kernel
here in comp.lang.lisp, because the Steel Banks Common Lisp encapsulates
the kernel for us.

I also admit to just using the two or three available socket libraries
in QuickLisp, whenever I need to deal with raw sockets.  I once imple-
mented a D.N.S. server -- or service -- in Common Lisp, that replied un-
helpfully with an error message to every query, as a practice in the
D.N.S. protocol.  I'm not sure if that source code is still public.

You can trivially make your own, if you need the D.N.S. protocol in
Common Lisp.

That code was then adopted and the D.N.S. protocol removed, to do some-
thing with raw U.D.P. datagrams.  That is the beauty of sharing source
code; one never knows what other people do with it.

And no, I don't know why Lawrence is always pretending to be a Python
influencer here in comp.lang.lisp.  I hope he's getting paid for it.


Happy network coding in Common Lisp!
-- 
Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com
https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:;

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#401070 — Re: D.N.S. in Common Lisp

Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> writes:

> On 11/08/2026 4:41 AM, Anton Antimo wrote:
>> Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> writes:
>> 
>>> On 06/08/2026 5:48 AM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 05 Aug 2026 13:13:42 -0300, Anton Antimo wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> To be fair, a big part of my struggle is the thick layer of Racket
>>>>> on top of POSIX. For instance, try to locate the equivalent
>>>>> select-call on it. It's so hard to recognize exactly how your Racket
>>>>> maps to the lower level. I understand that may a strong point of
>>>>> Racket's design, but it certainly hits my weakness.
>>>> Sounds very Java-like. Though perhaps not as irritating as Java.
>>>> Compare Python <https://docs.python.org/3/library/select.html> --
>>>> that’s less than 10 pages (i.e. number of times I have to hit
>>>> Page-Down in the browser) of docs.
>>>
>>>
>>> I admit I'm not sure why the select system call seems to be missing from
>>> this selection of networking functions, [...]
>>
>> It would be like writing C in Lisp notation.  For select (called
>> unix-fast-select in SBCL), see sb-unix.
>> (defun wait-for-stdin-select ()
>>    (sb-alien:with-alien ((read-fds (sb-alien:struct sb-unix:fd-set)))
>>      (sb-unix:fd-zero read-fds)
>>      (sb-unix:fd-set 0 read-fds)
>>      (format t "Waiting up to 5 seconds for input on stdin... Type something!~%")
>>      (force-output)
>>      (multiple-value-bind (count err)
>>          (sb-unix:unix-fast-select 1 (sb-alien:addr read-fds) nil nil 5 0)
>>        (cond
>>          ((null count)
>>           (format t "Select failed with errno: ~A~%" err))
>>          ((zerop count)
>>           (format t "Timeout! No input received.~%"))
>>          ((sb-unix:fd-isset 0 read-fds)
>>           (format t "Data is ready to be read from stdin!~%"))
>>          (t
>>           (format t "Something else woke up select!~%"))))))
>> ;; run it
>> (wait-for-stdin-select)
>
> Thank you.  This is indeed helpful.

But don't assume I'd ever write something like that in Lisp.  Again,
that's like C programming in Lisp notation.  See IOLib, for example.

> Unhelpfully, Lawrence is always talking about some sort of select in
> Python, and then talks about polling in Linux, when he knows we don't
> care about the Linux kernel here in comp.lang.lisp, because the Steel
> Banks Common Lisp encapsulates the kernel for us.

No sarcasm here. Lawrence has been doing a great service to the current
USENET.  We can say whatever we want about his knowledge or opinions or
whatever, but he keeps a lot of people distracted here and I'm sure
these people are all looking for a distraction.  And his distractions
are not all inadequate.  He's usually bring up on-topic things that
allows people here to exercise their own skills.  If these contributions
are too shallow---well---I'd say that's something we can say about most
USENET traffic these days.  Because we're very low volume these days, I
think shallow contributions are better than nothing.  I prefer the
shallow chat than no chat at all.

> And no, I don't know why Lawrence is always pretending to be a Python
> influencer here in comp.lang.lisp.  I hope he's getting paid for it.

From what I can tell, Lawrence never really caught the Lisp culture---it
can be seen in how he writes Lisp in the occasion he does it.  This
means his criticism aren't very serious.  He loves Python, which is a
way of saying---``thanks, Lisp, for the things you've done for me.''

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#401053

On 09/08/2026 4:52 PM, tfb wrote:
> Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> I've found the Common Lisp macro system annoying enough that I rarely
>> use it.  I'm OK with functions most of the time, and CLOS the rest of
>> the time.  And only resort to macros when I can't do anything else in
>> the situation.
>>
> 
> It is so weird that people use a language whose defining feature is the
> incremental construction of languages and then say they don't use that
> feature.  I mean, I'm aware people do that, but it's just so fucking weird.
> 

No the subject of /weird/, I've also found it highly bizarre, if not
outright disturbing, that people don't use do ... while(); in C.  It's
an eminently useful structured programming pattern.

On the subject of Common Lisp, I find it more than disturbing when a
codebase lacks the basic usage of hash tables.

   https://www.sbcl.org/manual/#hash-table-extensions


Happy coding disturbing things!
-- 
Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com
https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:;

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#401062

Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> writes:

> On 09/08/2026 4:52 PM, tfb wrote:
>> Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
> No the subject of /weird/, I've also found it highly bizarre, if not
> outright disturbing, that people don't use do ... while(); in C.  It's
> an eminently useful structured programming pattern.

Finally, every time that I open a PR with that pattern I get questioned
and frown. It's such disturbing.

>
> On the subject of Common Lisp, I find it more than disturbing when a
> codebase lacks the basic usage of hash tables.
>
>   https://www.sbcl.org/manual/#hash-table-extensions

unless you find some code base that use hash table all over the place.
:)

bix

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#401092

On Wed, 12 Aug 2026 10:16:25 +0200, bixbox wrote:

>> On the subject of Common Lisp, I find it more than disturbing when
>> a codebase lacks the basic usage of hash tables.
>>
>>   https://www.sbcl.org/manual/#hash-table-extensions
>
> unless you find some code base that use hash table all over the place.
> :)

Perl was a major advance on, I would say, two counts: it popularized
regular expressions, and it popularized hash tables. Putting those two
features together made for an extremely useful high-level language,
which is what I think finally killed BASIC.

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#401094

On 2026-08-13 04:18, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Aug 2026 10:16:25 +0200, bixbox wrote:
> 
>>> On the subject of Common Lisp, I find it more than disturbing when
>>> a codebase lacks the basic usage of hash tables.
>>>
>>>    https://www.sbcl.org/manual/#hash-table-extensions
>>
>> unless you find some code base that use hash table all over the place.
>> :)
> 
> Perl was a major advance on, I would say, two counts: it popularized
> regular expressions, and it popularized hash tables.

Regexps were popular from many Unix tools before Perl came up.
And hash tables were popular from Awk, which influenced Perl
as well.

> Putting those two
> features together made for an extremely useful high-level language,
> which is what I think finally killed BASIC.

I don't see how you could come to that conclusion. Some folks
abandoned BASIC as early as possible, i.e. with any language
that is in any respect "better" (and there were many), and I
know other folks that still use a MS BASIC variant these days
for scripting. - Is it dead, is it alive? - Who cares...

Janis

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#401101

On 8/12/2026 7:56 PM, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 2026-08-13 04:18, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Wed, 12 Aug 2026 10:16:25 +0200, bixbox wrote:
>>
>>>> On the subject of Common Lisp, I find it more than disturbing when
>>>> a codebase lacks the basic usage of hash tables.
>>>>
>>>>    https://www.sbcl.org/manual/#hash-table-extensions
>>>
>>> unless you find some code base that use hash table all over the place.
>>> :)
>>
>> Perl was a major advance on, I would say, two counts: it popularized
>> regular expressions, and it popularized hash tables.
> 
> Regexps were popular from many Unix tools before Perl came up.
> And hash tables were popular from Awk, which influenced Perl
> as well.
> 
>> Putting those two
>> features together made for an extremely useful high-level language,
>> which is what I think finally killed BASIC.
> 
> I don't see how you could come to that conclusion. Some folks
> abandoned BASIC as early as possible, i.e. with any language
> that is in any respect "better" (and there were many), and I
> know other folks that still use a MS BASIC variant these days
> for scripting. - Is it dead, is it alive? - Who cares...

Basic is fun. Care a bit. Fwiw:

 From the thread Macro issue...
(kind of miss google groups wrt linking...)

Basically using C++ to help generate BASIC code:




Humm... Actually, is this use of my macro(s), CT_ASB_*, okay for this 
little code example I wrote to "help" me write AppleSoft BASIC? Can you 
run it, is the code Kosher, so to speak, well, does it work for you or 
not...? Any undefined behavior in my macro? The macros seem a bit 
hackish, but they seem to work okay for now:
______________________________________
#include <iostream>
#include <sstream>


// Macro kosher? Seems to be...
namespace ct_basic {

     struct program_counter {
         unsigned long m_origin;
         unsigned long m_cur;
         unsigned long m_inc;
         std::stringstream m_prog;

         program_counter(
             unsigned long cur = 0,
             unsigned long inc = 10
         ) : m_origin(cur), m_cur(cur), m_inc(inc) {
         }

         void line(std::stringstream const& line0) {
             m_prog << m_cur << " " << line0.str() << std::endl;
             m_cur += m_inc;
         }
     };

     #define CT_ASB_LINE(mp_pc, mp_x) \
         { \
             std::stringstream line0; \
             line0 << mp_x; \
             (mp_pc).line(line0); \
         }


     #define CT_ASB_GOSUB(mp_pc0, mp_pc1, mp_indent) \
         CT_ASB_LINE(mp_pc0, mp_indent "GOSUB " << mp_pc1.m_origin)
}


int
main()
{
     {
         std::cout << "ctBasic testing 123... :^)\n";
         std::cout << "__________________________\n";

         {

             ct_basic::program_counter pc0(100);
             ct_basic::program_counter pc1(1000);

             // ct_main
             {
                 ct_basic::program_counter& PC = pc0;

                 CT_ASB_LINE(PC, "REM ct_main");
                 CT_ASB_LINE(PC, "    PRINT \"ct_main\"");
                 CT_ASB_GOSUB(PC, pc1, "    ");
                 CT_ASB_LINE(PC, "END");
             }

             // ct_init
             {
                 ct_basic::program_counter& PC = pc1;

                 CT_ASB_LINE(PC, "REM ct_init");
                 CT_ASB_LINE(PC, "    PRINT \"ct_init\"");
                 CT_ASB_LINE(PC, "RETURN");
             }

             std::cout << pc0.m_prog.str() << "\n\n";
             std::cout << pc1.m_prog.str() << "\n\n";
         }

         std::cout << "__________________________\n";
     }

     std::cout << "Complete! Well, time to test the\n";
     std::cout << "generated AppleSoft BASIC";

     return 0;
}
______________________________________


Fwiw, I get an output of:

ctBasic testing 123... :^)
__________________________
100 REM ct_main
110     PRINT "ct_main"
120     GOSUB 1000
130 END


1000 REM ct_init
1010     PRINT "ct_init"
1020 RETURN


__________________________
Complete! Well, time to test the
generated AppleSoft BASIC







100 REM ct_vfield_applesoft_basic
110     HOME
120     HGR: HCOLOR = 3: VTAB 22
130     PRINT "ct_vfield_applesoft_basic"
140     GOSUB 1000
150     GOSUB 3000
160     SP = 0
170     RS(SP, 0) = 0
180     RS(SP, 1) = -1
190     RS(SP, 2) = 0
200     RS(SP, 3) = 1
210     RS(SP, 4) = 0
220     GOSUB 8000
230     V1(1) = 0: V1(2) = 0: V1(3) = 1: V1(4) = 128
240     GOSUB 6000
245     PRINT "Chris Thomasson's Koch Complete!"
250 END

1000 REM ct_init
1010     PRINT "ct_init"
1020     DIM A0(6)
1030     DIM V0(4)
1040     DIM V1(4)
1050     DIM V2(4)
1060     DIM V3(4)
1070     DIM V4(4)
1080     DIM V5(4)
1090     RN = 3
1100     DIM RS(RN, 16)
1110         GOSUB 2000
1120 RETURN

2000 REM ct_init_plane
2010     PRINT "ct_init_plane"
2020     A0(1) = 279: REM m_plane.m_width
2030     A0(2) = 191: REM m_plane.m_height
2040     A0(3) = 0.0126106: REM m_plane.m_xstep
2050     A0(4) = 0.0126316: REM m_plane.m_ystep
2060     A0(5) = -1.75288: REM m_plane.m_axes.m_xmin
2070     A0(6) = 1.2: REM m_plane.m_axes.m_ymax
2080 RETURN

3000 REM ct_display_plane
3010     PRINT "ct_display_plane"
3020     FOR I0 = 1 TO 6
3030         PRINT "A0("; I0; ") = " A0(I0)
3040     NEXT I0
3050 RETURN

4000 REM ct_project_point
4010     REM PRINT "ct_project_point"
4020     V0(3) = (V0(1) - A0(5)) / A0(3)
4030     V0(4) = (A0(6) - V0(2)) / A0(4)
4040     IF V0(3) < 0 THEN V0(3) = INT(V0(3) - .5)
4050     IF V0(3) >= 0 THEN V0(3) = INT(V0(3) + .5)
4060     IF V0(4) < 0 THEN V0(4) = INT(V0(4) - .5)
4070     IF V0(4) >= 0 THEN V0(4) = INT(V0(4) + .5)
4080 RETURN

5000 REM ct_plot_point
5010     REM PRINT "ct_plot_point"
5020     GOSUB 4000
5030     IF V0(3) > -1 AND V0(3) <= A0(1) AND V0(4) > -1 AND V0(4) <= 
A0(2) THEN HPLOT V0(3), V0(4)
5040 RETURN

6000 REM ct_plot_circle
6010     PRINT "ct_plot_circle"
6020     AB = 6.28318 / V1(4)
6030     FOR I1 = 0 TO 6.28318 STEP AB
6040         V0(1) = V1(1) + COS(I1) * V1(3)
6050         V0(2) = V1(2) + SIN(I1) * V1(3)
6060         GOSUB 5000
6070     NEXT I1
6080 RETURN

7000 REM ct_plot_line
7010     PRINT "ct_plot_line"
7020     V0(1) = V5(1): V0(2) = V5(2)
7030     GOSUB 4000
7040     IF V0(3) < 0 THEN V0(3) = 0
7050     IF V0(3) > A0(1) THEN V0(3) = A0(1)
7060     IF V0(4) < 0 THEN V0(4) = 0
7070     IF V0(4) > A0(2) THEN V0(4) = A0(2)
7080     HPLOT V0(3), V0(4)
7090     V0(1) = V5(3): V0(2) = V5(4)
7100     GOSUB 4000
7110     IF V0(3) < 0 THEN V0(3) = 0
7120     IF V0(3) > A0(1) THEN V0(3) = A0(1)
7130     IF V0(4) < 0 THEN V0(4) = 0
7140     IF V0(4) > A0(2) THEN V0(4) = A0(2)
7150     HPLOT TO V0(3), V0(4)
7160 RETURN

8000 REM ct_koch
8010     IF RS(SP, 0) >= RN THEN RETURN
8020     PRINT "ct_koch = "; RS(SP, 0); " "; RS(SP, 1); " "; RS(SP, 2); 
" "; RS(SP, 3); " "; RS(SP, 4)"
8030     RS(SP, 5) = RS(SP, 3) - RS(SP, 1) : REM difx
8040     RS(SP, 6) = RS(SP, 4) - RS(SP, 2) : REM dify
8050     RS(SP, 7) = RS(SP, 1) + RS(SP, 5) / 2 : REM dify
8060     RS(SP, 8) = RS(SP, 2) + RS(SP, 6) / 2 : REM dify
8070     RS(SP, 9) = -RS(SP, 6) : REM perpx
8080     RS(SP, 10) = RS(SP, 5) : REM perpy
8090     RS(SP, 11) = RS(SP, 7) + RS(SP, 9) / 3 : REM tipx
8100     RS(SP, 12) = RS(SP, 8) + RS(SP, 10) / 3 : REM tipy
8110     RS(SP, 13) = RS(SP, 1) + RS(SP, 5) / 3 : REM k0x
8120     RS(SP, 14) = RS(SP, 2) + RS(SP, 6) / 3 : REM k0y
8130     RS(SP, 15) = RS(SP, 3) - RS(SP, 5) / 3 : REM k1x
8140     RS(SP, 16) = RS(SP, 4) - RS(SP, 6) / 3 : REM k1y

8145     IF RS(SP, 0) < RN - 1 GOTO 8230
8150     V5(1) = RS(SP, 1): V5(2) = RS(SP, 2): V5(3) = RS(SP, 13): V5(4) 
= RS(SP, 14)
8160     GOSUB 7000
8170     V5(1) = RS(SP, 13): V5(2) = RS(SP, 14): V5(3) = RS(SP, 11): 
V5(4) = RS(SP, 12)
8180     GOSUB 7000
8190     V5(1) = RS(SP, 11): V5(2) = RS(SP, 12): V5(3) = RS(SP, 15): 
V5(4) = RS(SP, 16)
8200     GOSUB 7000
8210     V5(1) = RS(SP, 15): V5(2) = RS(SP, 16): V5(3) = RS(SP, 3): 
V5(4) = RS(SP, 4)
8220     GOSUB 7000

8230     REM line 0
8240     SP = SP + 1
8250     RS(SP, 0) = RS(SP - 1, 0) + 1
8260     RS(SP, 1) = RS(SP - 1, 1)
8270     RS(SP, 2) = RS(SP - 1, 2)
8280     RS(SP, 3) = RS(SP - 1, 13)
8290     RS(SP, 4) = RS(SP - 1, 14)
8300     GOSUB 8000
8310     SP = SP - 1
8320     REM line 1
8330     SP = SP + 1
8340     RS(SP, 0) = RS(SP - 1, 0) + 1
8350     RS(SP, 1) = RS(SP - 1, 13)
8360     RS(SP, 2) = RS(SP - 1, 14)
8370     RS(SP, 3) = RS(SP - 1, 11)
8380     RS(SP, 4) = RS(SP - 1, 12)
8390     GOSUB 8000
8400     SP = SP - 1
8410     REM line 2
8420     SP = SP + 1
8430     RS(SP, 0) = RS(SP - 1, 0) + 1
8440     RS(SP, 1) = RS(SP - 1, 11)
8450     RS(SP, 2) = RS(SP - 1, 12)
8460     RS(SP, 3) = RS(SP - 1, 15)
8470     RS(SP, 4) = RS(SP - 1, 16)
8480     GOSUB 8000
8490     SP = SP - 1
8500     REM line 3
8510     SP = SP + 1
8520     RS(SP, 0) = RS(SP - 1, 0) + 1
8530     RS(SP, 1) = RS(SP - 1, 15)
8540     RS(SP, 2) = RS(SP - 1, 16)
8550     RS(SP, 3) = RS(SP - 1, 3)
8560     RS(SP, 4) = RS(SP - 1, 4)
8570     GOSUB 8000
8580     SP = SP - 1
8590 RETURN

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#401115

Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> writes:

> On 2026-08-13 04:18, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Wed, 12 Aug 2026 10:16:25 +0200, bixbox wrote:
>> 
>>>> On the subject of Common Lisp, I find it more than disturbing when
>>>> a codebase lacks the basic usage of hash tables.
>>>>
>>>>    https://www.sbcl.org/manual/#hash-table-extensions
>>>
>>> unless you find some code base that use hash table all over the place.
>>> :)
>> Perl was a major advance on, I would say, two counts: it popularized
>> regular expressions, and it popularized hash tables.
>
> Regexps were popular from many Unix tools before Perl came up.

It was Ken Thompson who first put them in such practical use.  And I
would guess it was in ed.  And from ed, grep sprung as an executable.

> And hash tables were popular from Awk, which influenced Perl as well.

And the reason I don't use Perl myself: if the program gets larger, I
choose Common Lisp.  The rich syntax of Perl has never been too kind on
me, but I always wrote Perl happy (unlike Java, which always had the
same fate of Basic [to me]).

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#401122

On 2026-08-13 17:25, Anton Antimo wrote:
> Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> writes:
> 
>> On 2026-08-13 04:18, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>> On Wed, 12 Aug 2026 10:16:25 +0200, bixbox wrote:
>>>
>>>>> On the subject of Common Lisp, I find it more than disturbing when
>>>>> a codebase lacks the basic usage of hash tables.
>>>>>
>>>>>     https://www.sbcl.org/manual/#hash-table-extensions
>>>>
>>>> unless you find some code base that use hash table all over the place.
>>>> :)
>>> Perl was a major advance on, I would say, two counts: it popularized
>>> regular expressions, and it popularized hash tables.
>>
>> Regexps were popular from many Unix tools before Perl came up.
> 
> It was Ken Thompson who first put them in such practical use.  And I
> would guess it was in ed.  And from ed, grep sprung as an executable.

Yes, and add all the grep variants, then sed, awk, pager programs,
ex/vi, expr, and more (tcl, m4, lex may be amongst them but I'm not
sure they had regexps from the beginning).

And there was a C-library available, so one could easily add regexp
functions to own tools!

> 
>> And hash tables were popular from Awk, which influenced Perl as well.
> 
> And the reason I don't use Perl myself: if the program gets larger, I
> choose Common Lisp.  The rich syntax of Perl has never been too kind on
> me, but I always wrote Perl happy (unlike Java, which always had the
> same fate of Basic [to me]).

Oh, I've never seen Java and Basic mentioned in one sentence before.

At least we have got some nice abbreviated forms for regex elements
from Perl; mostly syntactic sugar, maybe, but very useful, IMO. Good
that they spread also into other regexp supporting tools so that you
don't have to buy Perl just for the accommodating regexp formulations.

Janis

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#401129

On 8/13/2026 10:01 AM, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 2026-08-13 17:25, Anton Antimo wrote:
>> Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 2026-08-13 04:18, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 12 Aug 2026 10:16:25 +0200, bixbox wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> On the subject of Common Lisp, I find it more than disturbing when
>>>>>> a codebase lacks the basic usage of hash tables.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     https://www.sbcl.org/manual/#hash-table-extensions
>>>>>
>>>>> unless you find some code base that use hash table all over the place.
>>>>> :)
>>>> Perl was a major advance on, I would say, two counts: it popularized
>>>> regular expressions, and it popularized hash tables.
>>>
>>> Regexps were popular from many Unix tools before Perl came up.
>>
>> It was Ken Thompson who first put them in such practical use.  And I
>> would guess it was in ed.  And from ed, grep sprung as an executable.
> 
> Yes, and add all the grep variants, then sed, awk, pager programs,
> ex/vi, expr, and more (tcl, m4, lex may be amongst them but I'm not
> sure they had regexps from the beginning).
> 
> And there was a C-library available, so one could easily add regexp
> functions to own tools!
> 
>>
>>> And hash tables were popular from Awk, which influenced Perl as well.
>>
>> And the reason I don't use Perl myself: if the program gets larger, I
>> choose Common Lisp.  The rich syntax of Perl has never been too kind on
>> me, but I always wrote Perl happy (unlike Java, which always had the
>> same fate of Basic [to me]).
> 
> Oh, I've never seen Java and Basic mentioned in one sentence before.

Run the program I posted in this thread on this online applesoft basic 
emulator written i Java:

https://www.calormen.com/jsbasic/

;^)


> 
> At least we have got some nice abbreviated forms for regex elements
> from Perl; mostly syntactic sugar, maybe, but very useful, IMO. Good
> that they spread also into other regexp supporting tools so that you
> don't have to buy Perl just for the accommodating regexp formulations.
> 
> Janis
> 

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#401156

Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> writes:

> On 2026-08-13 17:25, Anton Antimo wrote:
>> Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> writes:
>> 
>>> On 2026-08-13 04:18, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 12 Aug 2026 10:16:25 +0200, bixbox wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> On the subject of Common Lisp, I find it more than disturbing when
>>>>>> a codebase lacks the basic usage of hash tables.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     https://www.sbcl.org/manual/#hash-table-extensions
>>>>>
>>>>> unless you find some code base that use hash table all over the place.
>>>>> :)
>>>> Perl was a major advance on, I would say, two counts: it popularized
>>>> regular expressions, and it popularized hash tables.
>>>
>>> Regexps were popular from many Unix tools before Perl came up.
>> It was Ken Thompson who first put them in such practical use.  And I
>> would guess it was in ed.  And from ed, grep sprung as an executable.
>
> Yes, and add all the grep variants, then sed, awk, pager programs,
> ex/vi, expr, and more (tcl, m4, lex may be amongst them but I'm not
> sure they had regexps from the beginning).
>
> And there was a C-library available, so one could easily add regexp
> functions to own tools!
>> 
>>> And hash tables were popular from Awk, which influenced Perl as well.
>> And the reason I don't use Perl myself: if the program gets larger,
>> I
>> choose Common Lisp.  The rich syntax of Perl has never been too kind on
>> me, but I always wrote Perl happy (unlike Java, which always had the
>> same fate of Basic [to me]).
>
> Oh, I've never seen Java and Basic mentioned in one sentence before.

Lol.  Don't take it seriously.  I've never really used Basic and while I
tried dove into Java with a lot of enthusiasm (as I did with C++ after
feeling I was very good with C), I really couldn't continue---too much
bureaucracy, I felt.

> At least we have got some nice abbreviated forms for regex elements
> from Perl; mostly syntactic sugar, maybe, but very useful, IMO. Good
> that they spread also into other regexp supporting tools so that you
> don't have to buy Perl just for the accommodating regexp formulations.

In ``Let Over Lambda'', Doug Hoyte guides you into implementing this
side of Perl in Common Lisp.  In the prerequisites, he shows very neat
ideas in macro writing.

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#401196

On Fri, 14 Aug 2026 08:27:44 -0300, Anton Antimo wrote:

> I've never really used Basic and while I tried dove into Java with a
> lot of enthusiasm (as I did with C++ after feeling I was very good
> with C), I really couldn't continue---too much bureaucracy, I felt.

“Bureaucracy” is absolutely a good word to sum up Java.

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#401139

On Thu, 13 Aug 2026 12:25:55 -0300, Anton Antimo wrote:

> Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 2026-08-13 04:18, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> Perl was a major advance on, I would say, two counts: it
>>> popularized regular expressions, and it popularized hash tables.
>>
>> Regexps were popular from many Unix tools before Perl came up.
>
> It was Ken Thompson who first put them in such practical use. And I
> would guess it was in ed. And from ed, grep sprung as an executable.
>
>> And hash tables were popular from Awk, which influenced Perl as
>> well.

Notice what’s missing: putting the two together into a common, much more
powerful tool.

Awk was a precursor of this: but Perl does everything Awk can do, just
as concisely, and a lot more besides.

> The rich syntax of Perl has never been too kind on me, but I always
> wrote Perl happy (unlike Java, which always had the same fate of
> Basic [to me]).

I did use Perl a lot for a while. But I always got the feeling that
there were things going on I never quite fully understood. Looking at
frequent examples of “obfuscated Perl” just confirmed that impression.

Then I discovered Python. Maybe not quite as concise (i.e. cryptic) as
Perl in some ways, but actually just as powerful, and in a more
digestible form.

It is not a coincidence that the Python community attracts the best
minds to keep building on it nowadays.

> And the reason I don't use Perl myself: if the program gets larger,
> I choose Common Lisp.

People say “Common Lisp”, but no vanilla implementation of that would
be worth using nowadays.

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#401158

In article <8733wijb3w.fsf@safunu.org>, Anton Antimo  <anton@safunu.org> wrote:
>Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 2026-08-13 04:18, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>> On Wed, 12 Aug 2026 10:16:25 +0200, bixbox wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> On the subject of Common Lisp, I find it more than disturbing when
>>>>> a codebase lacks the basic usage of hash tables.
>>>>>
>>>>>    https://www.sbcl.org/manual/#hash-table-extensions
>>>>
>>>> unless you find some code base that use hash table all over the place.
>>>> :)
>>> Perl was a major advance on, I would say, two counts: it popularized
>>> regular expressions, and it popularized hash tables.
>>
>> Regexps were popular from many Unix tools before Perl came up.
>
>It was Ken Thompson who first put them in such practical use.  And I
>would guess it was in ed.  And from ed, grep sprung as an executable.

Ken certainly popularized their use, though not in ed: it was in
QED, which predated ed by some number of years, and was used on
CTSS.  Thompson's CACM paper on NFA simulation predated Unix
(and thus ed) by a year or so:
https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/363347.363387

	- Dan C.

(I think I said he targeted the 7090 in another post; it was the
7094, which was an upgraded 7090)

>> And hash tables were popular from Awk, which influenced Perl as well.
>
>And the reason I don't use Perl myself: if the program gets larger, I
>choose Common Lisp.  The rich syntax of Perl has never been too kind on
>me, but I always wrote Perl happy (unlike Java, which always had the
>same fate of Basic [to me]).

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#401251

cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) writes:

> In article <8733wijb3w.fsf@safunu.org>, Anton Antimo  <anton@safunu.org> wrote:
>>Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 2026-08-13 04:18, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 12 Aug 2026 10:16:25 +0200, bixbox wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>> On the subject of Common Lisp, I find it more than disturbing when
>>>>>> a codebase lacks the basic usage of hash tables.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    https://www.sbcl.org/manual/#hash-table-extensions
>>>>>
>>>>> unless you find some code base that use hash table all over the place.
>>>>> :)
>>>> Perl was a major advance on, I would say, two counts: it popularized
>>>> regular expressions, and it popularized hash tables.
>>>
>>> Regexps were popular from many Unix tools before Perl came up.
>>
>>It was Ken Thompson who first put them in such practical use.  And I
>>would guess it was in ed.  And from ed, grep sprung as an executable.
>
> Ken certainly popularized their use, though not in ed: it was in
> QED, which predated ed by some number of years, and was used on
> CTSS.  Thompson's CACM paper on NFA simulation predated Unix
> (and thus ed) by a year or so:
> https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/363347.363387
>
> 	- Dan C.

[...]

Thank you so much for the reference.

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#401157

In article <115jbp0$189sr$1@dont-email.me>,
Janis Papanagnou  <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On 2026-08-13 04:18, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Wed, 12 Aug 2026 10:16:25 +0200, bixbox wrote:
>> 
>>>> On the subject of Common Lisp, I find it more than disturbing when
>>>> a codebase lacks the basic usage of hash tables.
>>>>
>>>>    https://www.sbcl.org/manual/#hash-table-extensions
>>>
>>> unless you find some code base that use hash table all over the place.
>>> :)
>> 
>> Perl was a major advance on, I would say, two counts: it popularized
>> regular expressions, and it popularized hash tables.
>
>Regexps were popular from many Unix tools before Perl came up.
>And hash tables were popular from Awk, which influenced Perl
>as well.

Hash tables for fast lookups had been known for decades before
awk was written, and regular expressions applied to text
processing predate Unix by some years.  Thompson's paper
described a technique (what has come to be known as "Thompson's
Construction") used on the IBM 7090 computer, predating Multics.

To bring this back to C, the expression of Thompson's
construction in C is rather straight-forward and elegant, and an
early example in K&R and K&R2 is implementing a hash table, with
closed addressing and chaining for collision resolution.
(Comparing the algorithms used between the two editions is
constructive).

	- Dan C.

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#401160

On 2026-08-14 14:17, Dan Cross wrote:
> In article <115jbp0$189sr$1@dont-email.me>,
> Janis Papanagnou  <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2026-08-13 04:18, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>> Perl was a major advance on, I would say, two counts: it popularized
>>> regular expressions, and it popularized hash tables.
>>
>> Regexps were popular from many Unix tools before Perl came up.
>> And hash tables were popular from Awk, which influenced Perl
>> as well.
> 
> Hash tables for fast lookups had been known for decades before
> awk was written, and regular expressions applied to text
> processing predate Unix by some years.  Thompson's paper
> described a technique (what has come to be known as "Thompson's
> Construction") used on the IBM 7090 computer, predating Multics.

Yes, sure. (And I didn't claim that Unixes were where they first
appeared.) But above we spoke about their popularization.[*]

Would you also say that these appearances made Regexps "popular"?

With the dissemination of the Unixes they certainly became widely
popular; this is at least my observation.

Concerning hash tables, I haven't the whole historic picture here
(i.e. where they were implemented, their grade of dissemination
and popularity) beyond that they're comparably old as concept; my
point was just that Perl was not the "popularizing factor". In
(standard-)Awk they are actually the only non-primitive data type
available (as opposed to Perl or early Shells, the latter even with
only severely restricted arrays).

Janis

[*] I'm not sure you meant your post as addendum or corrigendum.

>[...]

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