Re: Is 'extern' necessary?

From	BartC <bc@freeuk.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Is 'extern' necessary?
Date	2017-02-10 20:50 +0000
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<o7l8uh$jip$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
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On 10/02/2017 20:09, jameskuyper@verizon.net wrote:
> On Friday, February 10, 2017 at 1:41:10 PM UTC-5, Bart wrote:
>> On 10/02/2017 17:33, Keith Thompson wrote:
>>> BartC <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
>>>> I've been trying to find out what the point of 'extern' is.
>>>
>>> N1570 6.9.2, tentative definitions.
>>
>> It mentions 'external definition'. What does that mean?
>
> Go up one level. Section 6.9 is titled "External definitions", 6.9p1 defines what an external declaration is, and 6.9p5 defines an external definition as an external declaration that is also a definition, referring back to 6.7p5 for the definition of "definition".
>
>> Presumably it can't mean a definition with 'extern', because if I write:
>>
>>    extern int abc = 100;
>
> In 6.9, "external" means "outside of any function" (6.9p4), whereas in most other parts of the standard it refers to "external linkage".

I remember that from a previous discussion. It comes up in K&R2 1.10 
(p31): "An external variable... must be defined outside of any function. 
...The variable must also be declared in each function that wants to 
access it...". And it goes on to suggest using an explicit 'extern' 
statement.

I think that's just ramped up the confusion by a magnitude or so!

>> But with this extern, tentative, storage and linkage business, it's
>> doing a good job of making it as fiendishly convoluted as possible.
>> Having issues hidden by a compiler, or multiple definitions taken care
>> of by a linker, doesn't help in trying to understand.
>
> It makes things easier for the developer, however. Each of those rules enables idioms that C programmers other than you find convenient.

What sort of idioms?

I can see a couple of ways to share exported data in C. If module A 
wants to share a named object with B:

   A.c:                        B.c:

   extern int abc;             extern int abc;   #include A.h
   ....
   int abc = 100;

But it also seems to work without extern:

   A.c:                        B.c:

   int abc;                    int abc;          #include A.h
   ....
   int abc = 100;

Here, B doesn't know if abc belongs to B, or is imported from elsewhere. 
A can assume that abc does belong because it's initialised. So object 
files for both A and B appear to export abc, so only one is chosen by 
the linker (since A contains init data for abc, that can be chosen).

The same thing applies when abc is a function. and the abc = 100 is 
replaced a function body, except that now B /knows/ that abc has to 
exist elsewhere. There is a link error if both A and B export abc with 
init data or a function body.

So, why is any other idiom needed? The usage pattern required is simple.

-- 
Bartc

Thread

Is 'extern' necessary? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-10 17:16 +0000
  Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-02-10 09:33 -0800
    Re: Is 'extern' necessary? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-10 18:41 +0000
      Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-02-10 12:09 -0800
        Re: Is 'extern' necessary? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-10 20:29 +0000
          Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-02-10 13:26 -0800
            Re: Is 'extern' necessary? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-10 22:56 +0000
              Re: Is 'extern' necessary? jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2017-02-10 20:19 -0800
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-02-11 09:53 -0500
              Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-02-13 05:19 -0800
      Re: Is 'extern' necessary? jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2017-02-10 12:09 -0800
        Re: Is 'extern' necessary? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-10 20:50 +0000
          Re: Is 'extern' necessary? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-02-10 13:09 -0800
          Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-02-10 13:33 -0800
          Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-02-10 23:23 +0000
            Re: Is 'extern' necessary? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-10 23:35 +0000
              Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-02-11 00:34 +0000
            Re: Is 'extern' necessary? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-13 12:41 +0100
              Re: Is 'extern' necessary? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-13 13:14 +0000
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-02-13 14:05 +0000
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2017-02-13 07:49 -0800
          Re: Is 'extern' necessary? jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2017-02-10 19:33 -0800
            Re: Is 'extern' necessary? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-02-11 09:41 -0800
              Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-02-11 10:19 -0800
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-02-11 13:39 -0500
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-02-12 10:10 -0800
      Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-10 14:59 -0800
      Re: Is 'extern' necessary? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-13 12:33 +0100
  Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-10 09:35 -0800
    Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-02-10 12:12 -0800
  Re: Is 'extern' necessary? jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2017-02-10 10:38 -0800
  Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-02-10 21:10 +0000
    Re: Is 'extern' necessary? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-02-10 13:25 -0800
  Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-10 14:53 -0800
    Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-10 15:06 -0800
    Re: Is 'extern' necessary? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-10 23:24 +0000
      Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-11 12:34 +1300
        Re: Is 'extern' necessary? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-13 13:14 +0100
          Re: Is 'extern' necessary? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-02-13 13:44 +0100
            Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-02-13 14:13 +0000
            Re: Is 'extern' necessary? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-13 15:16 +0100
              Re: Is 'extern' necessary? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-02-13 17:24 +0100
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-02-13 14:24 -0500
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-13 23:29 +0100
            Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-02-13 11:06 -0800
            Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-13 11:15 -0800
          Re: Is 'extern' necessary? "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-02-13 11:48 -0500
            Re: Is 'extern' necessary? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-02-13 09:03 -0800
            Re: Is 'extern' necessary? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-13 23:37 +0100
      Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-10 15:40 -0800
      Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-02-13 05:09 -0800
        Re: Is 'extern' necessary? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-13 13:46 +0000
          Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-02-13 09:52 -0800
            Re: Is 'extern' necessary? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-13 19:19 +0000
              Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-02-13 11:34 -0800
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-13 20:13 +0000
              Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-13 13:11 -0800
              Re: Is 'extern' necessary? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-14 00:33 +0100
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-14 01:02 +0000
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-14 09:28 +0100
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-14 03:31 -0600
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-14 11:42 +0000
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-14 13:29 +0100
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-02-14 05:16 -0800
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-14 14:51 +0100
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-02-14 07:24 -0800
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-14 21:35 +0100
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-02-14 15:53 -0500
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-15 09:31 +0100
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-02-15 11:36 -0500
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-02-15 09:12 -0800
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-02-15 12:58 -0500
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-02-15 10:01 -0800
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2017-02-15 10:55 -0800
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-02-15 11:42 -0800
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2017-02-15 12:28 -0800
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-02-15 13:58 -0800
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-02-14 08:54 -0800
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-02-14 08:51 -0800
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2017-02-14 17:32 +0000
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 17:45 +0000
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-14 21:38 +0100
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-14 23:26 +0000
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-02-14 16:33 -0800
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-15 00:47 +0000
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Jean-Marc Bourguet <jm@bourguet.org> - 2017-02-14 18:17 +0100
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-02-14 09:47 -0800
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-14 18:36 +0000
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2017-02-14 11:20 -0800
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-02-14 11:42 -0800
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-14 20:22 +0000
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-14 17:58 -0600
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-15 01:29 +0000
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-16 05:02 -0600
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-16 11:38 +0000
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-02-16 14:37 +0000
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-02-16 15:43 +0000
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-02-16 16:08 +0000
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-02-16 18:42 +0100
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-15 09:47 +0100
                Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-16 05:05 -0600
          Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-02-15 16:53 -0800
    Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-02-10 23:55 +0000
  Re: Is 'extern' necessary? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-02-10 19:24 -0600
  Re: Is 'extern' necessary? void <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2017-02-11 03:17 -0800

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