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Groups > comp.lang.c > #129865
| From | Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c |
| Subject | Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet |
| Date | 2018-04-27 10:36 -0700 |
| Organization | None to speak of |
| Message-ID | <ln7eosft5v.fsf@kst-u.example.com> (permalink) |
| References | (5 earlier) <752bbd42-4649-4537-bb9a-01ecc72d3b0c@googlegroups.com> <87in8etgms.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <4330b8c3-bcd0-4213-a276-a0c4fb25c810@googlegroups.com> <87y3h9sha3.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <5da45b9b-6b02-4e92-ac51-1abf1e8fe4c4@googlegroups.com> |
Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:
> On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 12:02:38 AM UTC+1, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> > On Thursday, April 26, 2018 at 11:19:03 AM UTC+1, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> >> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:
>> >>
>> >> What do you believe this shows? Do you think the errors here make
>> >> things simpler?
>> >>
>> > The tutorial was obviously written when everyone used DOS. Except a
>> > few Unix types in academic or high end professional computing who
>> > mostly knew C anyway.
>>
>> The reason for the error is beside the point. I wondered why you
>> thought making it simplified anything.
>>
> The header file itself was called STDIO.H on DOS systems, which didn't
> allow lower case filenames at the time. But the compiler accepted
> stdio.h in lower case. So that's potentially confusing. Schildt is
> telling his readers that they might see upper case, whilst telling
> them to prefer lower case. Which is correct enough.
He could simply have told them to use lower case for standard headers.
There is no good reason to even consider writing `#include <STDIO.H>`.
Schildt stated as "the traditional method" something that should be
treated, for simplicity, as an absolute rule.
If he wanted to abandon the simplification you advocate and discuss
the fact that the file (which users needn't even be aware of)
is named "STDIO.H", he could have gotten into that, and explained
that what appears between the <> isn't simply a file name. But all
a beginning programmer needs to know is that you need to write
#include <stdio.h>
at the top of the source file. C identifiers and keywords are
case-sensitive and usually lowercase; the fact that header names
follow the same pattern shouldn't confuse anyone.
You're grasping at straws.
>> > The books were very popular, and part of the reason is the informal style,
>> > avoiding over-qualification or the premature use of technical
>> > terms.
>>
>> But this example introduces more technical terms whose only purpose
>> appears to make a mistake. Surely it's just better to leave out any
>> talk about letter cases.
>>
>> And I find the part about the semi-colon and keywords defining
>> statements to be excessively technical without being particularly
>> clear.
>>
> He's just explained the anatomy of a C statement. It ends in a semi-colon.
> It's not always clear to a beginner where semicolons go and where
> they don't. They don't terminate #include directives. That of course
> is because these are preprocessing directives rather than actual
> C statements. But he's withholding some of the full truth there for
> pedagogical purposes. That's why the writing is clear and engaging.
C statements end in semicolons (except that compound statements
don't). So do declarations. So do the first two clauses of a
for statement. So do struct member definitions, due to a distinct
syntax rule separate from the one for declarations.
#include directives don't end in a semicolon because that's the syntax.
The underlying reason, which Schildt could have gone into if he had
wanted to, is that preprocessor directives are strictly line-oriented,
so there's no need for semicolons as a separator. His claim that it's
because "it is an instruction to the C compiler itself" is nonsense.
Everything in a C source file is an instruction to the C compiler.
And again, the *simple* way to explain it would be just to say that
a #include directive does not end in a semicolon. More generally,
preprocessor directives are line-oriented, begin with #, and do
not include semicolons as part of their syntax. His explanation
is both more complicated and wrong.
<sarcasm>But his writing is clear end engaging, so that's ok.<sarcasm>
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Working, but not speaking, for JetHead Development, Inc.
"We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
-- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"
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Need some help getting to my feet Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-04-24 13:39 +0000
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-04-24 16:38 +0100
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Real Troll <real.troll@trolls.com> - 2018-04-24 13:40 -0400
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-04-24 08:38 -0700
[Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-04-24 18:06 +0000
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-04-25 07:33 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Steven Petruzzellis <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-04-25 07:49 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-04-25 21:28 +0000
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2018-04-28 14:26 +0000
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-04-28 20:25 +0000
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2018-04-29 15:12 +0000
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-04-29 16:49 +0100
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2018-04-30 15:30 +0000
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-04-30 17:06 +0100
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Steven Petruzzellis <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-04-30 09:12 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet C W Rose <cwr@seckford.org> - 2018-05-02 15:19 +0100
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Steven Petruzzellis <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-05-02 07:54 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-05-03 12:45 +0000
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2018-05-05 14:22 +0000
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-05-05 08:42 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet C W Rose <cwr@seckford.org> - 2018-05-07 16:34 +0100
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-05-07 09:37 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-05-04 10:19 +0200
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-05-04 11:31 +0100
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Steven Petruzzellis <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-04-29 08:53 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Steven Petruzzellis <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-04-29 18:14 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-04-25 08:54 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-04-25 09:24 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-04-25 18:10 +0100
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-04-25 10:48 -0700
Casting the return value of malloc() (Was: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-04-25 19:23 +0000
Re: Casting the return value of malloc() (Was: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet) Bruce S <bruces42@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-25 16:55 -0600
Re: Casting the return value of malloc() (Was: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet) "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-04-25 16:03 -0700
Re: Casting the return value of malloc() (Was: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet) Bruce S <bruces42@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-25 18:02 -0600
Re: Casting the return value of malloc() (Was: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet) "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid_chris_thomasson@invalid.invalid> - 2018-04-25 17:14 -0700
Re: Casting the return value of malloc() (Was: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet) Bruce S <bruces42@hotmail.com> - 2018-04-26 13:31 -0600
Re: Casting the return value of malloc() (Was: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-04-26 03:27 +0000
Re: Casting the return value of malloc() (Was: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet) Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-04-26 11:06 +0000
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet 1alvinalbrecht1@gmail.com - 2018-04-25 18:41 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-04-26 07:26 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2018-04-25 16:26 +0000
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-04-25 21:50 +0100
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-04-26 01:47 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Steven Petruzzellis <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-04-26 02:18 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-04-26 11:18 +0100
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-04-26 11:33 +0100
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Steven Petruzzellis <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-04-26 05:26 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-04-27 00:09 +0100
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-04-26 09:14 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-04-26 10:26 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-04-27 00:02 +0100
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-04-27 02:35 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-04-27 11:34 +0100
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2018-04-27 04:14 -0700
STDIO.H vs stdio.h (Was: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-04-27 13:08 +0000
Re: STDIO.H vs stdio.h (Was: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet) Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2018-04-27 18:52 +0200
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Steven Petruzzellis <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-04-27 07:08 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-04-27 10:36 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-04-27 19:04 +0100
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-04-27 11:26 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-04-27 18:45 +0000
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-04-30 03:43 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-04-30 09:10 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Steven Petruzzellis <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-04-30 23:32 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-04-26 07:33 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2018-04-26 08:38 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-04-27 03:30 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-04-27 08:41 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-04-27 17:04 +0000
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-04-27 11:06 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-04-27 20:15 +0000
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-04-27 13:47 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-04-27 22:06 +0100
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-04-27 14:51 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-04-28 00:25 +0100
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-04-27 17:23 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-04-28 01:39 +0100
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-04-27 19:22 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-05-04 10:36 +0200
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-05-04 11:21 +0100
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-05-04 04:03 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-05-04 14:03 +0200
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-05-04 09:19 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-05-04 11:00 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-05-05 18:39 +0200
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-05-07 16:23 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-04-28 12:11 +0000
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2018-04-27 14:12 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-04-28 12:21 +0000
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-05-04 13:31 +0000
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2018-05-04 17:19 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-05-18 21:55 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-05-21 03:26 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-06-14 03:00 -0700
Mixing declarations and statements in C code (Was: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-12-26 06:43 +0000
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2018-12-26 19:02 +0300
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-12-31 18:01 +0000
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2018-12-31 17:16 -0500
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-12-31 22:44 +0000
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2019-01-01 19:14 +0000
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2019-01-01 13:14 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-01-01 12:49 -0800
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2019-01-01 15:55 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-01-01 16:05 -0800
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2019-01-01 22:17 -0700
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-01-01 20:25 +0000
Re: [Solved] Need some help getting to my feet Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-05-04 11:48 +0000
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Ed Kellett <e@kellett.im> - 2018-04-24 16:40 +0100
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Steven Petruzzellis <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-04-24 11:01 -0700
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-04-24 15:50 +0000
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2018-04-24 17:21 +0000
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Real Troll <real.troll@trolls.com> - 2018-04-24 13:20 -0400
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Real Troll <real.troll@trolls.com> - 2018-04-24 13:30 -0400
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2018-04-24 17:42 +0000
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-04-24 18:26 +0000
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-04-25 19:19 +0000
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-04-25 21:30 +0000
Re: Need some help getting to my feet bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-04-25 22:55 +0100
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-04-27 08:49 +0000
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-04-25 15:37 +0000
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-04-25 09:27 -0700
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-04-26 13:22 +0200
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Steven Petruzzellis <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-04-26 09:21 -0700
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-04-27 08:16 +0000
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-04-27 09:36 -0700
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-05-04 10:41 +0200
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2018-04-28 14:27 +0000
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-04-24 11:09 -0700
Re: Need some help getting to my feet C W Rose <cwr@seckford.org> - 2018-04-25 18:59 +0100
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-04-26 10:42 -0700
Re: Need some help getting to my feet Steven Petruzzellis <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-04-27 00:23 -0700
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