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Groups > comp.lang.c > #148315
| From | Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c |
| Subject | Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? |
| Date | 2019-12-01 12:10 +1300 |
| Message-ID | <h4gb6qFft80U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink) |
| References | (6 earlier) <dbc11ea8-b3c1-4862-9e27-9d75708f7643@googlegroups.com> <h2e87qFq967U1@mid.individual.net> <86bltlej42.fsf@linuxsc.com> <h2ojbdF4cl5U4@mid.individual.net> <86imn38qov.fsf@linuxsc.com> |
On 29/11/2019 13:35, Tim Rentsch wrote: > Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> writes: > >> On 09/11/2019 18:03, Tim Rentsch wrote: >> >>> Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> writes: >>> >>>> On 06/11/2019 01:57, Thiago Adams wrote: >>>> >>>>> C is dangerous but it is simple. When you know the tool you >>>>> know exactly what the compiler is doing and you know from a long >>>>> time what is important to do and check. How to deal with the >>>>> details. >>>>> >>>>> C++ is complex and nobody knows happens under the hood. This is why >>>>> site that shows the compiler output are so useful nowadays for C++ >>>>> community. >>>>> >>>>> C is not perfect and C++ is not so bad. Personally I wish I could >>>>> select some features from both and add some extra ones. >>>>> This is why I created my own C front end. >>>> >>>> The complexity in a programming problem is a constant. You can solve >>>> it in the C way with a large number of simple steps, which introduces >>>> extra complexity in making sure they all work together. You can solve >>>> it with fewer step in a higher level language, which introduces extra >>>> complexity to the language. The overall complexity remains constant. >>> >>> Mother Goose comes to comp.lang.c. >> >> I assume by your recent tone that you have been smoking something... > > Ahh, and here we have another ad hominem remark. When one > doesn't have either the facts or the law on their side, all > that's left is attacking the character of one's opponent. Pot, kettle? >> Take a concrete example: resource management. >> >> In C resource management is transparent but manual, the programmer has >> to track what has been allocated and know when to free it. This, >> along with the opportunity for error, gets quite complex when a >> resource is shared, especially between threads. >> >> In C++, adding some extra complexity in the language (constructors and >> automatic object destruction) removes the complexity and the >> opportunities for error from the user code. >> >> The code is still doing the same work and may well compile down to >> equivalent assembler. The overall complexity remains constant. > > Two problems: this assumes complexity is a scalar, which it > isn't, and that it is simply additive, which it also isn't. In the example I mentioned, the complexity could be a measure of the generated object code required to solve the problem. If C and C++ generate the same or very similar object code, it's fair to say the code is doing the same work and to compare the complexity of (and opportunities for error in) the source code. > Furthermore it ignores the cost of all the other complexity in > C++ that must be paid whether the program needs it or not. C++ has always had the philosophy of if you don't need it, you don't pay for it. > Very few programs, if any, need all of the complex features that C++ > provides. And very few, if any, use all of the complex features that C++ provides. > I think it was Tony Hoare who pointed out that a > programming language shouldn't the union of all features needed > by any program, but rather the intersection of features needed > in every program. Otherwise essentially every program is paying > a complexity cost for some unneeded features. David has already said all I would have said in replay to this. -- Ian.
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Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-04 22:55 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 08:12 +0100
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 03:52 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 13:12 +0100
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 04:24 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 13:33 +0100
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 04:57 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 14:08 +0100
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 05:21 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 14:27 +0100
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 05:42 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 14:51 +0100
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-05 14:49 +0000
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 15:53 +0100
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-05 15:59 +0000
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 17:11 +0100
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 09:19 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 07:00 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-05 16:30 +0100
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 15:31 +0100
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-06 10:34 +1300
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-05 22:16 +0000
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-06 11:34 +1300
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-05 23:12 +0000
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-06 12:29 +1300
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-06 10:17 +0100
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 10:56 +0100
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 10:02 +0100
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-06 10:43 +0000
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 04:56 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 14:05 +0100
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-08 21:03 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-10 08:45 +1300
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-28 16:35 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-29 12:41 +0100
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-29 04:08 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-29 13:01 +0000
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-29 06:43 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-29 17:31 +0000
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-29 14:31 +0100
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-11-30 13:16 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-12-02 03:31 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-02 23:30 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-12-01 12:10 +1300
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-01-11 09:35 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2019-11-05 22:49 +0000
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 05:12 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 14:20 +0100
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? guinness.tony@gmail.com - 2019-11-05 16:19 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 00:06 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 03:19 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 22:38 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 04:50 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 05:32 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 05:56 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-06 14:26 +0000
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 09:04 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-06 22:45 +0100
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-29 14:35 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-11-29 23:23 +0000
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-29 19:08 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-29 19:12 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-11-30 10:44 +0000
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-09 23:21 -0800
Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-09 23:22 -0800
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