Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic?

From	Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic?
Date	2019-11-28 16:35 -0800
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<86imn38qov.fsf@linuxsc.com> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <qprq74$rl6$1@news.albasani.net> <dbc11ea8-b3c1-4862-9e27-9d75708f7643@googlegroups.com> <h2e87qFq967U1@mid.individual.net> <86bltlej42.fsf@linuxsc.com> <h2ojbdF4cl5U4@mid.individual.net>

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Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> writes:

> On 09/11/2019 18:03, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>
>> Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 06/11/2019 01:57, Thiago Adams wrote:
>>>
>>>> C is dangerous but it is simple.  When you know the tool you
>>>> know exactly what the compiler is doing and you know from a long
>>>> time what is important to do and check.  How to deal with the
>>>> details.
>>>>
>>>> C++ is complex and nobody knows happens under the hood.  This is why
>>>> site that shows the compiler output are so useful nowadays for C++
>>>> community.
>>>>
>>>> C is not perfect and C++ is not so bad.  Personally I wish I could
>>>> select some features from both and add some extra ones.
>>>> This is why I created my own C front end.
>>>
>>> The complexity in a programming problem is a constant.  You can solve
>>> it in the C way with a large number of simple steps, which introduces
>>> extra complexity in making sure they all work together.  You can solve
>>> it with fewer step in a higher level language, which introduces extra
>>> complexity to the language.  The overall complexity remains constant.
>>
>> Mother Goose comes to comp.lang.c.
>
> I assume by your recent tone that you have been smoking something...

Ahh, and here we have another ad hominem remark.  When one
doesn't have either the facts or the law on their side, all
that's left is attacking the character of one's opponent.

> Take a concrete example:  resource management.
>
> In C resource management is transparent but manual, the programmer has
> to track what has been allocated and know when to free it.  This,
> along with the opportunity for error, gets quite complex when a
> resource is shared, especially between threads.
>
> In C++, adding some extra complexity in the language (constructors and
> automatic object destruction) removes the complexity and the
> opportunities for error from the user code.
>
> The code is still doing the same work and may well compile down to
> equivalent assembler.  The overall complexity remains constant.

Two problems:  this assumes complexity is a scalar, which it
isn't, and that it is simply additive, which it also isn't.

Furthermore it ignores the cost of all the other complexity in
C++ that must be paid whether the program needs it or not.  Very
few programs, if any, need all of the complex features that C++
provides.  I think it was Tony Hoare who pointed out that a
programming language shouldn't the union of all features needed
by any program, but rather the intersection of features needed
in every program.  Otherwise essentially every program is paying
a complexity cost for some unneeded features.

Thread

Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-04 22:55 -0800
  Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 08:12 +0100
    Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 03:52 -0800
      Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 13:12 +0100
        Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 04:24 -0800
          Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 13:33 +0100
            Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 04:57 -0800
              Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 14:08 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 05:21 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 14:27 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 05:42 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 14:51 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-05 14:49 +0000
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 15:53 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-05 15:59 +0000
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 17:11 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 09:19 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 07:00 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-05 16:30 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 15:31 +0100
              Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-06 10:34 +1300
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-05 22:16 +0000
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-06 11:34 +1300
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-05 23:12 +0000
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-06 12:29 +1300
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-06 10:17 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 10:56 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 10:02 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-06 10:43 +0000
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 04:56 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 14:05 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-08 21:03 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-10 08:45 +1300
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-28 16:35 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-29 12:41 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-29 04:08 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-29 13:01 +0000
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-29 06:43 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-29 17:31 +0000
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-29 14:31 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-11-30 13:16 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-12-02 03:31 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-02 23:30 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-12-01 12:10 +1300
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-01-11 09:35 -0800
              Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2019-11-05 22:49 +0000
            Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 05:12 -0800
              Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 14:20 +0100
    Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? guinness.tony@gmail.com - 2019-11-05 16:19 -0800
    Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 00:06 -0800
  Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 03:19 -0800
    Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 22:38 -0800
      Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 04:50 -0800
        Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 05:32 -0800
          Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 05:56 -0800
            Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-06 14:26 +0000
              Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 09:04 -0800
              Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-06 22:45 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-29 14:35 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-11-29 23:23 +0000
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-29 19:08 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-29 19:12 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-11-30 10:44 +0000
            Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-09 23:21 -0800
            Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-09 23:22 -0800

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