Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic?

From	Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic?
Date	2020-01-11 09:35 -0800
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<864kx13ngm.fsf@linuxsc.com> (permalink)
References	(7 earlier) <h2e87qFq967U1@mid.individual.net> <86bltlej42.fsf@linuxsc.com> <h2ojbdF4cl5U4@mid.individual.net> <86imn38qov.fsf@linuxsc.com> <h4gb6qFft80U1@mid.individual.net>

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Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> writes:

> On 29/11/2019 13:35, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>
>> Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 09/11/2019 18:03, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 06/11/2019 01:57, Thiago Adams wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> C is dangerous but it is simple.  When you know the tool you
>>>>>> know exactly what the compiler is doing and you know from a long
>>>>>> time what is important to do and check.  How to deal with the
>>>>>> details.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> C++ is complex and nobody knows happens under the hood.  This is why
>>>>>> site that shows the compiler output are so useful nowadays for C++
>>>>>> community.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> C is not perfect and C++ is not so bad.  Personally I wish I could
>>>>>> select some features from both and add some extra ones.
>>>>>> This is why I created my own C front end.
>>>>>
>>>>> The complexity in a programming problem is a constant.  You can solve
>>>>> it in the C way with a large number of simple steps, which introduces
>>>>> extra complexity in making sure they all work together.  You can solve
>>>>> it with fewer step in a higher level language, which introduces extra
>>>>> complexity to the language.  The overall complexity remains constant.
>>>>
>>>> Mother Goose comes to comp.lang.c.
>>>
>>> I assume by your recent tone that you have been smoking something...
>>
>> Ahh, and here we have another ad hominem remark.  When one
>> doesn't have either the facts or the law on their side, all
>> that's left is attacking the character of one's opponent.
>
> Pot, kettle?

None of my comments here have been ad hominem remarks.  I have said
things about what you have said, but nothing of what I have said
has been about you as opposed to what you have said.

>>> Take a concrete example:  resource management.
>>>
>>> In C resource management is transparent but manual, the programmer has
>>> to track what has been allocated and know when to free it.  This,
>>> along with the opportunity for error, gets quite complex when a
>>> resource is shared, especially between threads.
>>>
>>> In C++, adding some extra complexity in the language (constructors and
>>> automatic object destruction) removes the complexity and the
>>> opportunities for error from the user code.
>>>
>>> The code is still doing the same work and may well compile down to
>>> equivalent assembler.  The overall complexity remains constant.
>>
>> Two problems:  this assumes complexity is a scalar, which it
>> isn't, and that it is simply additive, which it also isn't.
>
> In the example I mentioned, the complexity could be a measure of the
> generated object code required to solve the problem.  If C and C++
> generate the same or very similar object code, it's fair to say the
> code is doing the same work and to compare the complexity of (and
> opportunities for error in) the source code.

If you think the complexity of a programming _problem_ is
constant, then measuring generated object code cannot be a
valid complexity metric.


>> Furthermore it ignores the cost of all the other complexity in
>> C++ that must be paid whether the program needs it or not.
>
> C++ has always had the philosophy of if you don't need it, you don't
> pay for it.

Having a philosophy doesn't mean it has been achieved.  The idea
that you don't need to know about language features you don't use
has long been debunked.

>> Very few programs, if any, need all of the complex features that C++
>> provides.
>
> And very few, if any, use all of the complex features that C++ provides.

See above.

>> I think it was Tony Hoare who pointed out that a
>> programming language shouldn't the union of all features needed
>> by any program, but rather the intersection of features needed
>> in every program.  Otherwise essentially every program is paying
>> a complexity cost for some unneeded features.
>
> David has already said all I would have said in replay to this.

If you mean David Brown, I didn't see his comments.

Thread

Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-04 22:55 -0800
  Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 08:12 +0100
    Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 03:52 -0800
      Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 13:12 +0100
        Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 04:24 -0800
          Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 13:33 +0100
            Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 04:57 -0800
              Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 14:08 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 05:21 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 14:27 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 05:42 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 14:51 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-05 14:49 +0000
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 15:53 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-05 15:59 +0000
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 17:11 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 09:19 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 07:00 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-05 16:30 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 15:31 +0100
              Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-06 10:34 +1300
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-05 22:16 +0000
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-06 11:34 +1300
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-05 23:12 +0000
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-06 12:29 +1300
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-06 10:17 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 10:56 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 10:02 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-06 10:43 +0000
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 04:56 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 14:05 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-08 21:03 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-11-10 08:45 +1300
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-28 16:35 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-29 12:41 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-29 04:08 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-29 13:01 +0000
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-29 06:43 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-29 17:31 +0000
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-29 14:31 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-11-30 13:16 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-12-02 03:31 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-02 23:30 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-12-01 12:10 +1300
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-01-11 09:35 -0800
              Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2019-11-05 22:49 +0000
            Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 05:12 -0800
              Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 14:20 +0100
    Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? guinness.tony@gmail.com - 2019-11-05 16:19 -0800
    Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 00:06 -0800
  Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 03:19 -0800
    Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-05 22:38 -0800
      Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 04:50 -0800
        Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 05:32 -0800
          Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 05:56 -0800
            Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-11-06 14:26 +0000
              Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2019-11-06 09:04 -0800
              Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-11-06 22:45 +0100
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-29 14:35 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-11-29 23:23 +0000
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-29 19:08 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-29 19:12 -0800
                Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-11-30 10:44 +0000
            Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-09 23:21 -0800
            Re: Is this kosher wrt Generic? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-11-09 23:22 -0800

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