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Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C

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Bart <bc@freeuk.com> writes:

> On 28/10/2019 21:08, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> Bart <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
>>
>>> I just have a soft soft for bubble sort; the way it works, the way the
>>> action is always localised, is aesthetically pleasing.
>>
>> I will re-iterate that what you call bubble sort is this:
>>
>>    for (int i = 0; i < n; i++)
>
> I think n-1 will do here.

Yes, but I was transliterating the code you wrote in order to keep
things concrete.

>>       for (int j = 1; j < n; j++)
>>          if (a[j-1] > a[j])
>>             swap(&a[j-1], a&[j]);
>>
>> You praise the way the action is always localised but it is also
>> localised in this version of insertion sort:
>>
>>    for (int i = 1; i < n; i++)
>>       for (int j = i; j > 0 && a[j-1] > a[j]; j--)
>>          swap(&a[j-1], &a[j]);
>>
>> so you will, no doubt, praise that too, yes?
>
> Yes, but it seems insertion can be written in more diverse ways.

Sorry, but this is nonsense.  The two versions of insertion sort that
have come up here are essentially the same.  The one that picks up a[j]
and puts in in place at the end of the loop follows from expanding the
swap out into the usual t = a[j-1], a[j-1] = a[j], a[j] = t; pattern.
It replaces a sequence of consecutive swaps with a rotate.

The two versions of bubble sort doing the rounds in this thread are
radically different in the pattern of comparisons done, in the pattern of
element moved and in the code itself.

> I've already said bubble-sort is more consistent.
>
> The main deviation is whether to opt to finish early, which would be a
> good idea if data might already be nearly sorted.

That is a significant algorithmic change, unlike changing a series of
consecutive swaps with a shift of the elements.

You keep equivocating.  The "stop when sorted" bubble sort is not simple
and elegant, so you don't show that when simple and elegant are the
things you are championing.  But when it's pointed out that this comes
for free with all implementations of insertion sort, you accept that
this is the bubble sort one should use.

>> You like the way the first works, even with its frequent pointless tests
>> when the data is already sorted (or almost sorted), but /I/ like the
>> fact that the second detects this condition and back out early with no
>> extra code or flags (unlike the real bubble sort that needs both).
>> Don't you like that about how insertion sort works?
>>
>> All that's left is aesthetics, and in that department the second
>> algorithm wins hands down for me, but that's harder to argue.
>>
>>> It just has a slightly lower threshold at which it stops being viable
>>> than insertion sort,
>>
>> You may remember Malcolm's original remark about frequently having to
>> sort short collections of almost-sorted data.  Even a small extra cost
>> might be significant when the operation is done often enough.  The
>> algorithm you are championing does n*(n-1) compares /every time/, even
>> when the data are sorted.  The second code does n-1 compares on sorted
>> data.  So that's only 80 more compares on a 10-elements array, or 361
>> more if there are 20 elements, but why pay that price when the second
>> code is so simple and so elegant?
>
> With a 'swapped' flag as I'd normally use it, both are fast when data
> is already sorted. Without that flag, it's only suitable for very
> small data sets.

But that was not the algorithm you've been championing!  Please show
this better bubble sort so we can all see what you think is
aesthetically pleasing about that code.  It will help to clarify what
rage of alternatives you accept whilst still keeping bubble sort "more
consistent" than insertion sort.

> (my tests seems to show bubble is twice as fast as insertion, taking
> 0.2 seconds interpreted even for 1M sorted elements, which is
> extraordinary enough I'd have to double-check. But a quick look
> suggests that my insertion sort will always move each element even if
> it's to the same place.)

One of the few good things about bubble sort (the real one, not the
algorithm you seem to have been talking about up until now) is that the
loop logic is usually very fast when the data are sorted, but the best
algorithm for such data is not bubble sort, it's no sort.  Even less
than one element out of place will usually tip the balance (i.e. one
element out of place every now and then).

But down among these very fast cases exactly how the loops are coded, as
well as what the optimiser can get hold of, becomes more and more
significant.  It gets to be less and less about algorithms.

>> I think your criteria for code elegance are jumbled.
>
> I like to use simple, linear algorithms where possible. All my
> language projects have very good throughput (100s of thousands to even
> millions of lines per second), yet the most sophisticated data
> structure is a single hash-table, using my own
> hash-function. Everything else is done with linear traversal of linked
> lists or arrays.)

We were talking about sorting.  I've no way of assessing your criteria
for elegance in any other cases.

-- 
Ben.

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Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-20 18:12 -0400
  Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@delq.com> - 2019-10-20 18:33 -0700
    Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-20 23:16 -0400
      Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-21 13:15 +0100
        Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-21 14:40 -0400
          Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-22 00:54 +0100
            Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-10-22 10:05 +0200
            Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-10-23 07:18 -0700
          Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2019-10-26 20:01 +0200
            Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-26 17:50 -0400
              Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-10-28 16:33 +0100
      Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@delq.com> - 2019-10-21 07:56 -0700
      Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-21 16:46 +0100
        Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-21 14:57 -0400
          Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-21 20:53 +0100
            Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-21 16:05 -0400
              Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-21 21:12 +0100
            Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-21 20:08 -0400
              Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-10-22 10:27 +0200
          Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-22 19:45 +0100
            Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2019-10-22 19:58 +0000
            Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-23 11:46 -0400
              Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-23 20:02 +0100
              Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-24 01:38 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-23 22:10 -0400
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ike Naar <ike@sdf.lonestar.org> - 2019-10-24 07:24 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-24 09:29 -0400
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-10-24 08:45 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-24 11:56 -0400
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-10-24 09:13 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-24 18:28 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-24 10:36 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-24 09:26 -0400
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-24 18:29 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-24 14:38 -0400
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-24 21:30 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-24 11:30 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-24 20:36 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-24 21:34 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-24 22:42 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-24 18:59 -0400
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-25 02:48 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-10-26 04:33 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-26 17:21 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-26 18:47 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-26 23:24 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-27 00:29 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-27 01:58 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-27 12:02 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-28 02:08 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2019-10-26 14:29 -0600
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-10-26 13:36 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-26 22:06 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-26 23:04 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-10-27 12:49 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-27 18:20 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-10-27 22:45 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-28 00:08 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-10-27 14:57 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-28 01:08 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-28 01:44 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-28 02:31 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-28 10:42 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-28 12:45 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-28 17:39 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-10-28 20:31 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-28 20:22 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-10-28 22:07 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-28 22:22 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-10-29 10:17 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-29 11:21 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2019-10-28 11:05 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-28 19:26 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-28 21:08 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-28 21:57 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-28 23:59 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-29 00:53 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-29 01:09 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-29 01:32 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-28 22:44 -0400
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-10-29 03:05 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-29 11:12 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2019-10-29 04:19 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-29 11:47 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-10-29 05:03 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-29 13:16 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-29 17:13 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-29 17:35 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ike Naar <ike@sdf.lonestar.org> - 2019-10-30 07:19 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-29 16:19 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-29 16:50 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-10-29 10:03 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-29 17:13 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2019-10-29 10:23 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-29 22:20 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2019-10-30 03:04 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-30 15:39 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-10-30 09:02 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-30 19:35 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2019-10-30 14:11 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-31 03:34 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-04 17:02 -0800
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2019-10-26 12:30 -0400
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2019-10-26 12:03 -0500
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2019-10-26 14:25 -0600
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-10-24 18:06 -0700
        Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-21 22:44 +0100
          Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-21 19:00 -0400
  Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2019-10-21 10:20 +0800
    Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-21 12:44 +0100
  Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2019-10-21 10:24 +0800
    Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-20 23:05 -0400
      Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2019-10-21 11:32 +0800
  Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Autist <autist69@gmail.com> - 2019-10-29 15:15 +0100

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