Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C

From	Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C
Date	2019-10-28 01:08 +0000
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<87a79lsmm7.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References	(11 earlier) <90254a82-7571-4767-9d6e-90f0d51e6d4c@googlegroups.com> <87wocrtr2y.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <qp408d$mco$1@dont-email.me> <87lft6rqy6.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <5a9c3f4b-1204-4d40-8d5b-438b4cfe3bf3@googlegroups.com>

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Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sunday, 27 October 2019 18:20:20 UTC, Ben Bacarisse  wrote:
>>
>> Eh?  A learner see how insertion sort can be usefully replaced with
>> merge sort, heap sort, shell sort, quick sort, etc.  Is bubble sort's
>> advantage that it is bad enough to replace with another quadratic
>> algorithm?  That's an odd reason to teach it.
>> 
> Usually bubble sort will be the first algorithm taught (other than
> things like the pencil and paper method for long multiplication,
> which aren't understood at the time to be algorithms).

Most such courses include data structures, so many algorithms may well
have been covered by the time in-place array sorting is discussed.
Anyway, the question is why bother with bubble sort when the time comes?

> Next lesson is other sort methods the students can devise themselves,
> which will usually be O(N^2) algorithms, and a discussion of the advantages
> and disadvantages. So you are teaching that some algorithms are better
> than others in different circumstances.

All good provided (a) bubble sort isn't taught unless it comes up as a
student-devised algorithm, and (b) the students understand that there
are no situations in which bubble sort would be the best choice.  In
practice the problem is that, after taking some courses, the students
/can't/ choose because they can't remember any other algorithm than the
not-really-bubble-sort that's being discussed here.

A key outcome should be that the students understand that insertion sort
is the best choice when a simple quadratic algorithm will do.  They
should be able to come up with this:

  for (int i = 1; i < n; i++)
    for (int j = i; j > 0 && A[j-1] > A[j]; j--)
      swap(&A[j-1], &A[j]);

as easily as the dreaded quasi bubble sort.  It's not hard -- all the
bounds are logical.

> Third lesson is quicksort, and the concept of big O notation for
> algorithms.

I would have already covered big O.  Sorting algorithms have actual,
average and worst-case complexities so it's better, in my opinion, to
have big O already reasonably well understood by having used it for
simpler algorithms.

-- 
Ben.

Thread

Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-20 18:12 -0400
  Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@delq.com> - 2019-10-20 18:33 -0700
    Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-20 23:16 -0400
      Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-21 13:15 +0100
        Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-21 14:40 -0400
          Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-22 00:54 +0100
            Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-10-22 10:05 +0200
            Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-10-23 07:18 -0700
          Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2019-10-26 20:01 +0200
            Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-26 17:50 -0400
              Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-10-28 16:33 +0100
      Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@delq.com> - 2019-10-21 07:56 -0700
      Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-21 16:46 +0100
        Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-21 14:57 -0400
          Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-21 20:53 +0100
            Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-21 16:05 -0400
              Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-21 21:12 +0100
            Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-21 20:08 -0400
              Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-10-22 10:27 +0200
          Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-22 19:45 +0100
            Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2019-10-22 19:58 +0000
            Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-23 11:46 -0400
              Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-23 20:02 +0100
              Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-24 01:38 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-23 22:10 -0400
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ike Naar <ike@sdf.lonestar.org> - 2019-10-24 07:24 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-24 09:29 -0400
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-10-24 08:45 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-24 11:56 -0400
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-10-24 09:13 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-24 18:28 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-24 10:36 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-24 09:26 -0400
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-24 18:29 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-24 14:38 -0400
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-24 21:30 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-24 11:30 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-24 20:36 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-24 21:34 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-24 22:42 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-24 18:59 -0400
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-25 02:48 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-10-26 04:33 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-26 17:21 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-26 18:47 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-26 23:24 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-27 00:29 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-27 01:58 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-27 12:02 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-28 02:08 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2019-10-26 14:29 -0600
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-10-26 13:36 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-26 22:06 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-26 23:04 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-10-27 12:49 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-27 18:20 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-10-27 22:45 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-28 00:08 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-10-27 14:57 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-28 01:08 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-28 01:44 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-28 02:31 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-28 10:42 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-28 12:45 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-28 17:39 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-10-28 20:31 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-28 20:22 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-10-28 22:07 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-28 22:22 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-10-29 10:17 +0100
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-29 11:21 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2019-10-28 11:05 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-28 19:26 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-28 21:08 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-28 21:57 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-28 23:59 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-29 00:53 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-29 01:09 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-29 01:32 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-28 22:44 -0400
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-10-29 03:05 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-29 11:12 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2019-10-29 04:19 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-29 11:47 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-10-29 05:03 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-29 13:16 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-29 17:13 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-29 17:35 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ike Naar <ike@sdf.lonestar.org> - 2019-10-30 07:19 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-29 16:19 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-29 16:50 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-10-29 10:03 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-29 17:13 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2019-10-29 10:23 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-29 22:20 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2019-10-30 03:04 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-30 15:39 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2019-10-30 09:02 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-30 19:35 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2019-10-30 14:11 -0700
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-10-31 03:34 +0000
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-11-04 17:02 -0800
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2019-10-26 12:30 -0400
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2019-10-26 12:03 -0500
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2019-10-26 14:25 -0600
                Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-10-24 18:06 -0700
        Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-21 22:44 +0100
          Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-21 19:00 -0400
  Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2019-10-21 10:20 +0800
    Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-10-21 12:44 +0100
  Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2019-10-21 10:24 +0800
    Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2019-10-20 23:05 -0400
      Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2019-10-21 11:32 +0800
  Re: Challenge for Feeb: dealing with large numbers in C Autist <autist69@gmail.com> - 2019-10-29 15:15 +0100

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