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[ OT ] C - Open Standards

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  [ OT ] C - Open Standards Real Troll <real.troll@trolls.com> - 2021-07-08 01:00 +0100
    Re: [ OT ] C - Open Standards Real Troll <real.troll@trolls.com> - 2021-07-08 01:20 +0100
    Re: [ OT ] C - Open Standards "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2021-07-08 03:53 +0200
      Re: [ OT ] C - Open Standards Real Troll <real.troll@trolls.com> - 2021-07-08 02:30 +0000
    Re: [ OT ] C - Open Standards David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-07-08 08:46 +0200
    Re: [ OT ] C - Open Standards Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-07-08 08:21 +0000
      Re: [ OT ] C - Open Standards Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-07-08 10:31 +0200
      Re: [ OT ] C - Open Standards Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2021-07-08 12:19 +0200
    Re: [ OT ] C - Open Standards Real Troll <real.troll@trolls.com> - 2021-07-09 03:41 +0100
    Re: [ OT ] C - Open Standards Cholo Lennon <chololennon@hotmail.com> - 2021-07-10 19:47 -0300

#80684 — [ OT ] C - Open Standards

I have managed to find direct links to the official standard and they
are here:

<http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1336.pdf>
<http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1256.pdf>
<http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1124.pdf>

I am not sure if there are any official standards after n1336.pdf.
Perhaps there are or perhaps there aren't unless you pay for them. Let
me know if there are any for free use.

Microsoft has defined what Open Standard Means:

> Let's look at what an open standard means: 'open' refers to it being
> royalty-free, while 'standard' means a technology approved by
> formalized committees that are open to participation by all interested
> parties and operate on a consensus basis. _*An open standard is
> publicly available*_, and developed, approved and maintained via a
> collaborative and consensus driven process.

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#80685

On 08/07/2021 01:00, Real Troll wrote:
> I have managed to find direct links to the official standard and they
> are here:
>
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1336.pdf>
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1256.pdf>
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1124.pdf>
>
> I am not sure if there are any official standards after n1336.pdf.
> Perhaps there are or perhaps there aren't unless you pay for them. Let
> me know if there are any for free use.
>
> Microsoft has defined what Open Standard Means:
>
>> Let's look at what an open standard means: 'open' refers to it being
>> royalty-free, while 'standard' means a technology approved by
>> formalized committees that are open to participation by all interested
>> parties and operate on a consensus basis. _*An open standard is
>> publicly available*_, and developed, approved and maintained via a
>> collaborative and consensus driven process.
>
>
>
>
>
>

I have now found the official download link to "ISO/IEC 9899:2018".� The 
link is here:

<http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n2310.pdf>

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#80686

On 8 Jul 2021 02:00, Real Troll wrote:
> I have managed to find direct links to the official standard and they
> are here:
> 
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1336.pdf>
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1256.pdf>
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1124.pdf>
> 
> I am not sure if there are any official standards after n1336.pdf.
> Perhaps there are or perhaps there aren't unless you pay for them. Let
> me know if there are any for free use.
> 
> Microsoft has defined what Open Standard Means:
> 
>> Let's look at what an open standard means: 'open' refers to it being
>> royalty-free, while 'standard' means a technology approved by
>> formalized committees that are open to participation by all interested
>> parties and operate on a consensus basis. _*An open standard is
>> publicly available*_, and developed, approved and maintained via a
>> collaborative and consensus driven process.

N1256 (in your list) is the amalgamated C99 + TC1 + TC2 + TC3 document, 
very nice.

I believe N1570 (not in your list) was the last draft of C11.

- Alf

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#80687

On 08/07/2021 02:53, Alf P. Steinbach wrote:
>
> N1256 (in your list) is the amalgamated C99 + TC1 + TC2 + TC3 
> document, very nice.
>
> I believe N1570 (not in your list) was the last draft of C11.
>
>

OK Thanks for informing about N1570. I have found the official download 
link so the complete list is as follows:

<http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n2310.pdf>
<http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1570.pdf>
<http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1336.pdf>
<http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1256.pdf>
<http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1124.pdf>

Please let us know if anything else is missing from the list. The next 
standard is 23xx and it won't be approved until 2023 at the latest 
unless something drastic happens in the interim.

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#80688

On 08/07/2021 02:00, Real Troll wrote:
> I have managed to find direct links to the official standard and they
> are here:
> 
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1336.pdf>
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1256.pdf>
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1124.pdf>
> 
> I am not sure if there are any official standards after n1336.pdf.
> Perhaps there are or perhaps there aren't unless you pay for them. Let
> me know if there are any for free use.
> 

That's a useful list - thanks.

> Microsoft has defined what Open Standard Means:
> 
>> Let's look at what an open standard means: 'open' refers to it being
>> royalty-free, while 'standard' means a technology approved by
>> formalized committees that are open to participation by all interested
>> parties and operate on a consensus basis. _*An open standard is
>> publicly available*_, and developed, approved and maintained via a
>> collaborative and consensus driven process.
> 

As usual, Microsoft has a somewhat different definition from other
people...

"Open standard" usually means that the standard is /available/ to anyone
who wants it - but not necessarily for free.  There are a great many
open standards that are only available for a fee, or if you join the
relevant group.  "Open" in this context means that anyone can get the
standards - there are no restrictions by country, company, contract,
etc.  This also applies to the C and C++ standards, which are published
by ISO - anyone can get the standards, but you have to pay for them.
What is unusual (but /very/ nice) is that the ISO working groups here
publish their drafts at zero cost.

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#80692

In comp.lang.c++ Real Troll <real.troll@trolls.com> wrote:
> I have managed to find direct links to the official standard and they
> are here:
> 
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1336.pdf>
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1256.pdf>
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1124.pdf>

Note that something being directly available for download, even if it's
hosted at the IP owners' own servers, doesn't make it somehow automatically
legal to download if the documents are under a commercial license.
Making something available without technical barriers is not in itself
any sort of implicit free license.

(I don't know if those documents are commercial. Merely pointing out
that fact.)

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#80693

Am 08.07.21 um 10:21 schrieb Juha Nieminen:
> In comp.lang.c++ Real Troll <real.troll@trolls.com> wrote:
>> I have managed to find direct links to the official standard and they
>> are here:
>>
>> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1336.pdf>
>> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1256.pdf>
>> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1124.pdf>
> 
> Note that something being directly available for download, even if it's
> hosted at the IP owners' own servers, doesn't make it somehow automatically
> legal to download if the documents are under a commercial license.
> Making something available without technical barriers is not in itself
> any sort of implicit free license.
> 
> (I don't know if those documents are commercial. Merely pointing out
> that fact.)
> 

I understand that the WG14 / ISO copyright situation can be somewhat
complicated (and in the past ISO expressed some dislike about the
existance of that WG14 website). On the other hand, what you write would
hold for any text, website, etc, which is kind of impractical (how do I
know then I am allowed to read your message that I'm replying to here?).

Anyway, those N documents are not meant to be hidden by WG14. There is a
list of them
(http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/wg14_document_log.htm),
which is linked from the WB14 website
(http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/).
AFAIK, it is disputed who own the copyright to the individual N
documents there, and it might even differ by legislation (in particular
there might be US vs. EU law differences).

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#80695

On 2021-07-08 at 10:21, Juha Nieminen wrote:
> In comp.lang.c++ Real Troll <real.troll@trolls.com> wrote:
>> I have managed to find direct links to the official standard and they
>> are here:
>>
>> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1336.pdf>
>> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1256.pdf>
>> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1124.pdf>
> 
> Note that something being directly available for download, even if it's
> hosted at the IP owners' own servers, doesn't make it somehow automatically
> legal to download if the documents are under a commercial license.
> Making something available without technical barriers is not in itself
> any sort of implicit free license.
> 
> (I don't know if those documents are commercial. Merely pointing out
> that fact.)
> 

I am not a lawyer :-), but these papers are not official ISO documents, 
so no commercial license.

Especially humorous is n1256. ISO official documents are the C99 
official standard, plus three separate corrigenda - TC1, TC2, and TC3. 
ISO never published a "corrected" standard, just these four separate 
documents.

In preparation for the C11 work, the committee then produced a "working 
draft" with the TCs applied to the C99 standard. You need to have a base 
document, right? And arguably a lot better than the official one, as the 
bugs have been removed.

However, ISO never published this intermediate version, only the 
completed C11 standard.

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#80697

On 08/07/2021 04:34, Keith Thompson wrote:
>
> I haven't been able to find any public drafts of C17.


It looks like the University link has got a copy that is not password 
protected:

<https://teaching.csse.uwa.edu.au/units/CITS2002/resources/n2176.pdf>

I will try keep updating this list so that we have up to date copies 
when ever possible.

<http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n2310.pdf>
<https://teaching.csse.uwa.edu.au/units/CITS2002/resources/n2176.pdf>
<http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1570.pdf>
<http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1336.pdf>
<http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1256.pdf>
<http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1124.pdf>

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#80698

On 7/7/21 9:00 PM, Real Troll wrote:
> I have managed to find direct links to the official standard and they
> are here:
> 
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1336.pdf>
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1256.pdf>
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1124.pdf>
> 
> I am not sure if there are any official standards after n1336.pdf.
> Perhaps there are or perhaps there aren't unless you pay for them. Let
> me know if there are any for free use.
> 
> Microsoft has defined what Open Standard Means:
> 
>> Let's look at what an open standard means: 'open' refers to it being
>> royalty-free, while 'standard' means a technology approved by
>> formalized committees that are open to participation by all interested
>> parties and operate on a consensus basis. _*An open standard is
>> publicly available*_, and developed, approved and maintained via a
>> collaborative and consensus driven process.
> 
> 

I always return to this page when I need a reference/link to some 
particular C/C++ standard document:

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/81656/where-do-i-find-the-current-c-or-c-standard-documents


--
Cholo Lennon
Bs.As.
ARG

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