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Debugger Recommendation

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  Debugger Recommendation Joseph Hesse <joeh@gmail.com> - 2011-08-29 09:40 -0500
    Re: Debugger Recommendation Victor Bazarov <v.bazarov@comcast.invalid> - 2011-08-29 11:01 -0400
    Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-08-29 19:19 +0200
      Re: Debugger Recommendation "Waldek M." <wm@localhost.localdomain> - 2011-08-29 21:37 +0200
        Re: Debugger Recommendation Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-08-30 07:51 +1200
          Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-08-29 22:52 +0200
            Re: Debugger Recommendation Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-08-30 08:56 +1200
              Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-08-29 23:00 +0200
                Re: Debugger Recommendation Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-08-30 09:21 +1200
                Re: Debugger Recommendation Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2011-08-30 04:58 +0100
          Re: Debugger Recommendation "Waldek M." <wm@localhost.localdomain> - 2011-08-31 21:45 +0200
        Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-08-29 22:51 +0200
          Re: Debugger Recommendation "Waldek M." <wm@localhost.localdomain> - 2011-08-31 21:11 +0200
            Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-08-31 22:17 +0200
              Re: Debugger Recommendation "Waldek M." <wm@localhost.localdomain> - 2011-09-01 07:26 +0200
    Re: Debugger Recommendation Paul <pchristor@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-08-29 22:02 -0700
      Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-08-30 11:09 +0200
        Re: Debugger Recommendation Paul <pchristor@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-08-30 05:26 -0700
          Re: Debugger Recommendation Oliver Jackson <chexmofo@hotmail.com> - 2011-08-30 08:25 -0700
            Re: Debugger Recommendation Paul <pchristor@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-08-30 10:34 -0700

#9438 — Debugger Recommendation

Hi,

I have never used a debugger and would like to know which one(s) are the 
best.  I prefer one with a graphic interface.

I use gnu c++ and Linux.

Thank you,
Joe

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#9439

On 8/29/2011 10:40 AM, Joseph Hesse wrote:
> I have never used a debugger and would like to know which one(s) are the
> best.

There can only be one "best".  At the same time, it very much depends on 
what your definition of "the best" is, doesn't it?

 > I prefer one with a graphic interface.
>
> I use gnu c++ and Linux.

Then perhaps you should ask in a Linux newsgroup.  Incidentally, I used 
'ddd' and it was acceptable.  During my time working on Linux, 
developers weren't a choosy bunch.

V
-- 
I do not respond to top-posted replies, please don't ask

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#9440

Le 29/08/11 16:40, Joseph Hesse a écrit :
> Hi,
>
> I have never used a debugger and would like to know which one(s) are the
> best. I prefer one with a graphic interface.
>
> I use gnu c++ and Linux.
>
> Thank you,
> Joe

Buy TotalView, it is the best. It comes vith a good GUI

http://www.roguewave.com/products/totalview-family/totalview.aspx

And avoid gdb... It is the worst

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#9443

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:19:39 +0200, jacob navia wrote:
>> I have never used a debugger and would like to know which one(s) are the
>> best. I prefer one with a graphic interface.
>>
> Buy TotalView, it is the best. It comes vith a good GUI
> http://www.roguewave.com/products/totalview-family/totalview.aspx

The "best" because...?

> And avoid gdb... It is the worst

The "worst", because...?

I'm asking because I've been using gdb for years and I haven't seen
anything better than this. It's also free, it's available
everywhere on Linux and it just works. 
True, for GUI users, it may suck. But not because it's a bad
debugger, only.. it has no GUI, and third party GUIs are not
state-of-art.
However to me, lack of GUI is actually an advantage.

Br.
Waldek

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#9445

On 08/30/11 07:37 AM, Waldek M. wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:19:39 +0200, jacob navia wrote:
>>> I have never used a debugger and would like to know which one(s) are the
>>> best. I prefer one with a graphic interface.
>>>
>> Buy TotalView, it is the best. It comes vith a good GUI
>> http://www.roguewave.com/products/totalview-family/totalview.aspx
>
> The "best" because...?
>
>> And avoid gdb... It is the worst
>
> The "worst", because...?
>
> I'm asking because I've been using gdb for years and I haven't seen
> anything better than this. It's also free, it's available
> everywhere on Linux and it just works.
> True, for GUI users, it may suck. But not because it's a bad
> debugger, only.. it has no GUI, and third party GUIs are not
> state-of-art.

I guess those who use Eclipse or NetBeans would disagree with you about 
the state of the art!

-- 
Ian Collins

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#9448

Le 29/08/11 21:51, Ian Collins a écrit :
> On 08/30/11 07:37 AM, Waldek M. wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:19:39 +0200, jacob navia wrote:
>>>> I have never used a debugger and would like to know which one(s) are
>>>> the
>>>> best. I prefer one with a graphic interface.
>>>>
>>> Buy TotalView, it is the best. It comes vith a good GUI
>>> http://www.roguewave.com/products/totalview-family/totalview.aspx
>>
>> The "best" because...?
>>
>>> And avoid gdb... It is the worst
>>
>> The "worst", because...?
>>
>> I'm asking because I've been using gdb for years and I haven't seen
>> anything better than this. It's also free, it's available
>> everywhere on Linux and it just works.
>> True, for GUI users, it may suck. But not because it's a bad
>> debugger, only.. it has no GUI, and third party GUIs are not
>> state-of-art.
>
> I guess those who use Eclipse or NetBeans would disagree with you about
> the state of the art!
>

STATE OF THE ART!!!

GDB STATE OF THE ART!!!

Its interface hasn't changed at least since 1990.

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#9449

On 08/30/11 08:52 AM, jacob navia wrote:
> Le 29/08/11 21:51, Ian Collins a écrit :
>> On 08/30/11 07:37 AM, Waldek M. wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm asking because I've been using gdb for years and I haven't seen
>>> anything better than this. It's also free, it's available
>>> everywhere on Linux and it just works.
>>> True, for GUI users, it may suck. But not because it's a bad
>>> debugger, only.. it has no GUI, and third party GUIs are not
>>> state-of-art.
>>
>> I guess those who use Eclipse or NetBeans would disagree with you about
>> the state of the art!
>>
>
> STATE OF THE ART!!!
>
> GDB STATE OF THE ART!!!
>
> Its interface hasn't changed at least since 1990.

I was referring to the IDEs, not the debugger.

Dressing mutton as lamb is part of an IDE designer's job!

-- 
Ian Collins

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#9450

Le 29/08/11 22:56, Ian Collins a écrit :
> On 08/30/11 08:52 AM, jacob navia wrote:
>> Le 29/08/11 21:51, Ian Collins a écrit :
>>> On 08/30/11 07:37 AM, Waldek M. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm asking because I've been using gdb for years and I haven't seen
>>>> anything better than this. It's also free, it's available
>>>> everywhere on Linux and it just works.
>>>> True, for GUI users, it may suck. But not because it's a bad
>>>> debugger, only.. it has no GUI, and third party GUIs are not
>>>> state-of-art.
>>>
>>> I guess those who use Eclipse or NetBeans would disagree with you about
>>> the state of the art!
>>>
>>
>> STATE OF THE ART!!!
>>
>> GDB STATE OF THE ART!!!
>>
>> Its interface hasn't changed at least since 1990.
>
> I was referring to the IDEs, not the debugger.
>
> Dressing mutton as lamb is part of an IDE designer's job!
>
No. I wrote a debugger complete with GUI for the lcc-win
system and I did not use any underlying gdb or other debugger.

 > Dressing mutton as lamb is part of an IDE designer's job!

That's exactly what many "ide" designers think, and that is
why the "ide"s of linux SUCK so much. They are completely USELESS.

An IDE must IMPROVE the command line programs.

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#9451

On 08/30/11 09:00 AM, jacob navia wrote:
> Le 29/08/11 22:56, Ian Collins a écrit :
>> On 08/30/11 08:52 AM, jacob navia wrote:
>>> Le 29/08/11 21:51, Ian Collins a écrit :
>>>> On 08/30/11 07:37 AM, Waldek M. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm asking because I've been using gdb for years and I haven't seen
>>>>> anything better than this. It's also free, it's available
>>>>> everywhere on Linux and it just works.
>>>>> True, for GUI users, it may suck. But not because it's a bad
>>>>> debugger, only.. it has no GUI, and third party GUIs are not
>>>>> state-of-art.
>>>>
>>>> I guess those who use Eclipse or NetBeans would disagree with you about
>>>> the state of the art!
>>>>
>>>
>>> STATE OF THE ART!!!
>>>
>>> GDB STATE OF THE ART!!!
>>>
>>> Its interface hasn't changed at least since 1990.
>>
>> I was referring to the IDEs, not the debugger.
>>
>> Dressing mutton as lamb is part of an IDE designer's job!
>>
> No. I wrote a debugger complete with GUI for the lcc-win
> system and I did not use any underlying gdb or other debugger.

Does it do the hard but useful stuff like following the child and parent 
across process creation?  We all have different needs in a debugger.

>   >  Dressing mutton as lamb is part of an IDE designer's job!
>
> That's exactly what many "ide" designers think, and that is
> why the "ide"s of linux SUCK so much. They are completely USELESS.

Why do you rant so much?  There are probably many tens of thousands of 
happy, productive Eclipse and NetBeans users going about their daily 
business.  If my preferred NetBeans based IDE (Sun Studio) was 
completely useless, I'd be in a bit of a bind.

> An IDE must IMPROVE the command line programs.

They do that through visualisation and hyper-links.  Being able to see 
more than one view of a call stack, more than one collection of data or 
the status of multiple threads is where the IDE shines.

-- 
Ian Collins

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#9460

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 23:00:42 +0200, jacob navia wrote:

> No. I wrote a debugger complete with GUI for the lcc-win
> system and I did not use any underlying gdb or other debugger.

How good is its macro system? E.g. can you define custom printing
functions for key data types?

Without this feature, debugging the C portions of a high-level language
(where practically all of the data are Lisp_Object or PyObject* or
whatever) is a nightmare.

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#9575

On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 07:51:32 +1200, Ian Collins wrote:
>> True, for GUI users, it may suck. But not because it's a bad
>> debugger, only.. it has no GUI, and third party GUIs are not
>> state-of-art.
> 
> I guess those who use Eclipse or NetBeans would disagree with you about 
> the state of the art!

Well... I do sometimes use Eclipse, never used NetBeans though.
The first one does suck for the debugging part *IMVHO* but
that's just IMO. I like it how it indexes the code though,
and how it integrates the plugins for almost everything I can think of.

Yet, I prefer pure gdb when it comes to debugging.

Br.
Waldek

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#9447

Le 29/08/11 21:37, Waldek M. a écrit :
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:19:39 +0200, jacob navia wrote:
>>> I have never used a debugger and would like to know which one(s) are the
>>> best. I prefer one with a graphic interface.
>>>
>> Buy TotalView, it is the best. It comes vith a good GUI
>> http://www.roguewave.com/products/totalview-family/totalview.aspx
>
> The "best" because...?
>
>> And avoid gdb... It is the worst
>
> The "worst", because...?
>
> I'm asking because I've been using gdb for years and I haven't seen
> anything better than this. It's also free, it's available
> everywhere on Linux and it just works.
> True, for GUI users, it may suck. But not because it's a bad
> debugger, only.. it has no GUI, and third party GUIs are not
> state-of-art.
> However to me, lack of GUI is actually an advantage.
>


Why I hate gdb?

Let me count the ways:

1) No user interface that is conceived to help the user
   debug its program. Obscure commands full of exceptions and
   gotchas, and cryptic commands. For instance to get the registers
   you write:

   info registers

   And then you discover that the floating point registers
   are missing. How do you print those?

   info float

   Why "float"? They are registers like any other! But
   remember: "Do NOT try to undertand gdb. It has to be
   learnt by heart"

   I have never figured out how do I print the MMX registers
   alone. Apparently is impossible.

   The original poster said: "I have never used a debugger".
   Gdb couldn't be a worst introduction to a debugger.

2) Commands are difficult to use. Example "disassemble".
    When entered, this command doesn't intermix C source code
    with the disassembly as almost all other debuggers do.
    It will print the whole current function scrolling away
    all your context. It will not (as Microsoft debugger does)
    give you the symbolic name of addresses, even if it does
    know that information since the program was compiled with
    debug info.

3) Commands use a special syntax with some commands having
    a special "mini language" that you have to know by heart.

    x/10i $pc

    Clear isn't it? And very easy to remember of course.

4) Not to speak about its completely outdated command line
    interface, that forces you to write "list" again and again
    to see where you are in the source code. If emacs (another
    gnu product) can use termcaps and have a text mode "full
    screen" console why gdb can't?

This debugger hasn't improved anything in its user interface
since 1980 more or less. But all people that love GNU love
gdb and I will get flamed endlessly by them for telling that
gdb has no clothes!

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#9574

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 22:51:46 +0200, jacob navia wrote:
> Let me count the ways:
> 
> 1) No user interface that is conceived to help the user
>    debug its program. Obscure commands full of exceptions and
>    gotchas, and cryptic commands. For instance to get the registers
>    you write:
[CUT]

All your arguments are actually one argument: you hate it that
it has no built-in GUI. And I can accept it, sure. Just use one that has
one. And works. As simple as that.
Or use ddd/kdbg/whatever if you don't hate them as much.
Don't if you don't. Use some other. Write your own.
Maintain your own. You do? Oh, great. Share it with others,
if you like.

Only, please don't tell everyone around that the debugger
is of low quality because you don't like its interface.
Just write that for you its UI is crappy. Do we have a deal? ;-)

> This debugger hasn't improved anything in its user interface
> since 1980 more or less. But all people that love GNU love
> gdb and I will get flamed endlessly by them for telling that
> gdb has no clothes!

You're point being...? 
(a rethorical question, just in case)

Best regards,
Waldek

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#9576

Le 31/08/11 21:11, Waldek M. a écrit :
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 22:51:46 +0200, jacob navia wrote:
>> Let me count the ways:
>>
>> 1) No user interface that is conceived to help the user
>>     debug its program. Obscure commands full of exceptions and
>>     gotchas, and cryptic commands. For instance to get the registers
>>     you write:
> [CUT]
>

You CUT all arguments that prove why I think the interface is a pile
of Sh$t.

And I am speaking about the command line interface please, no GUI.


Because, as you (may) know, a command line INTERFACE is exactly
that, an interface that allows the human to control the software.

No Mouse, no windows. But INTERFACE anyway.

> All your arguments are actually one argument: you hate it that
> it has no built-in GUI.

No. It coud have a better command line interface, even if it
doesn't have any GUI.

> And I can accept it, sure. Just use one that has
> one. And works. As simple as that.
> Or use ddd/kdbg/whatever if you don't hate them as much.
> Don't if you don't. Use some other. Write your own.
> Maintain your own. You do? Oh, great. Share it with others,
> if you like.
>
> Only, please don't tell everyone around that the debugger
> is of low quality because you don't like its interface.
> Just write that for you its UI is crappy. Do we have a deal? ;-)
>

I wrfote just that with examples, and you ignored them.

Just CUT, of course, no discussion whatsoever.

>> This debugger hasn't improved anything in its user interface
>> since 1980 more or less. But all people that love GNU love
>> gdb and I will get flamed endlessly by them for telling that
>> gdb has no clothes!
>
> You're point being...?

That GNU has forgotten what *innovation* and *redesign* mean.

It is impossible to criticize anything GNU because of its
political goals: either you are FOR us, and then you should
swallow our pile of sh$t without any complaints, or you are
against us, then you are a micro$oft moron etc.

Look how you *avoided* any concrete discussion about the concrete
examples I underscored. Nothing, no concrete discussion
in your reply.

Why?

Because of the "political" goals of GNU.

GNU?

*G*nu is *N*ot *U*sable


  (a rethorical answer, just in case)
>
> Best regards,
> jacob

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#9580

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:17:23 +0200, jacob navia wrote:

> Le 31/08/11 21:11, Waldek M. a écrit :
>> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 22:51:46 +0200, jacob navia wrote:
>>> Let me count the ways:
>>>
>>> 1) No user interface that is conceived to help the user
>>>     debug its program. Obscure commands full of exceptions and
>>>     gotchas, and cryptic commands. For instance to get the registers
>>>     you write:
>> [CUT]
>>
> 
> You CUT all arguments that prove why I think the interface is a pile
> of Sh$t.

And what exactly is the point of repeating 4 different reasons for one
simple thing: you hate gdb UI? I really got the message :-)


>> All your arguments are actually one argument: you hate it that
>> it has no built-in GUI.
> 
> No. It coud have a better command line interface, even if it
> doesn't have any GUI.

All right then, I must have misunderstood then. You hate the gdb
UI, and you'd prefer that it has GUI.

[...]
> I wrfote just that with examples, and you ignored them.
> 
> Just CUT, of course, no discussion whatsoever.

That's because there's nothing to discuss with.
I accept it that those are the reasons why *you* hate gdb, while at the
same time, this reasons are either meaningless to me, or are actually an
advantage.

>> You're point being...?
> 
> That GNU has forgotten what *innovation* and *redesign* mean.

I might have agreed somewhat with you at that: see gmake development cycle,
and yes - that of gdb. One could argue whether that's because of innovation
or because of lack of support. But your generalization has proven you
wrong, so I say: Yeah, right.

Especially the Gnu Compiler Collection, which also
has been abandoned since 1990, right? ;)
And Gnome, which has never changed since its first release.
And all that GPL and LGPL software that Google can display and lots of
people use everyday: Audacity, Pidgin, Octave, Blender... no, they don't
exist, they must have been my dream.

Have a nice day :-)

Waldek

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#9461

On Aug 29, 3:40 pm, Joseph Hesse <j...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have never used a debugger and would like to know which one(s) are the
> best.  I prefer one with a graphic interface.
>
> I use gnu c++ and Linux.
>
> Thank you,
> Joe

http://xkcd.com/272/

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#9465

Le 30/08/11 07:02, Paul a écrit :
> On Aug 29, 3:40 pm, Joseph Hesse<j...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have never used a debugger and would like to know which one(s) are the
>> best.  I prefer one with a graphic interface.
>>
>> I use gnu c++ and Linux.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Joe
>
> http://xkcd.com/272/

I did not understand that comic. Should I understand that:

o Linux users are a "show off" kind of people that like to use dangerous 
things?

o Non-linux users (that need antivurus software) are lame
   people thatare unable to do anything?

o Both?

o None?

And what I understand even less is what that has to do with a debugger
discussion?

Thanks for enlightening me.

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#9469

On Aug 30, 10:09 am, jacob navia <ja...@spamsink.net> wrote:
> Le 30/08/11 07:02, Paul a écrit :
>
> > On Aug 29, 3:40 pm, Joseph Hesse<j...@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >> Hi,
>
> >> I have never used a debugger and would like to know which one(s) are the
> >> best.  I prefer one with a graphic interface.
>
> >> I use gnu c++ and Linux.
>
> >> Thank you,
> >> Joe
>
> >http://xkcd.com/272/
>
> I did not understand that comic. Should I understand that:
>
> o Linux users are a "show off" kind of people that like to use dangerous
> things?
>
> o Non-linux users (that need antivurus software) are lame
>    people thatare unable to do anything?
>
> o Both?
>
> o None?

The comic strip can be interpreted any way you want to interpret it. I
thought it was quite funny because of the way the author portrayed the
linux user v's non linux user, if that is the case or just how I
interpreted it ( maybe the salesman is also a linux user.
>
> And what I understand even less is what that has to do with a debugger
> discussion?
>
It has nothing to do with the debugger , it is only related to the
post becuase of Linux.

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#9494

On Aug 30, 5:26 am, Paul <pchris...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On Aug 30, 10:09 am, jacob navia <ja...@spamsink.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Le 30/08/11 07:02, Paul a écrit :
>
> > > On Aug 29, 3:40 pm, Joseph Hesse<j...@gmail.com>  wrote:
> > >> Hi,
>
> > >> I have never used a debugger and would like to know which one(s) are the
> > >> best.  I prefer one with a graphic interface.
>
> > >> I use gnu c++ and Linux.
>
> > >> Thank you,
> > >> Joe
>
> > >http://xkcd.com/272/
>
> > I did not understand that comic. Should I understand that:
>
> > o Linux users are a "show off" kind of people that like to use dangerous
> > things?
>
> > o Non-linux users (that need antivurus software) are lame
> >    people thatare unable to do anything?
>
> > o Both?
>
> > o None?
>
> The comic strip can be interpreted any way you want to interpret it. I
> thought it was quite funny because of the way the author portrayed the
> linux user v's non linux user, if that is the case or just how I
> interpreted it ( maybe the salesman is also a linux user.

In other words you don't get it either.

Posting a link to a comic that you don't get, without any accompanying
commentary, falls under the category of a non-contribution.  Yet
another post you should not have made.

>
> > And what I understand even less is what that has to do with a debugger
> > discussion?
>
> It has nothing to do with the debugger , it is only related to the
> post becuase of Linux.

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#9499

On Aug 30, 4:25 pm, Oliver Jackson <chexm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 30, 5:26 am, Paul <pchris...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 30, 10:09 am, jacob navia <ja...@spamsink.net> wrote:
>
> > > Le 30/08/11 07:02, Paul a écrit :
>
> > > > On Aug 29, 3:40 pm, Joseph Hesse<j...@gmail.com>  wrote:
> > > >> Hi,
>
> > > >> I have never used a debugger and would like to know which one(s) are the
> > > >> best.  I prefer one with a graphic interface.
>
> > > >> I use gnu c++ and Linux.
>
> > > >> Thank you,
> > > >> Joe
>
> > > >http://xkcd.com/272/
>
> > > I did not understand that comic. Should I understand that:
>
> > > o Linux users are a "show off" kind of people that like to use dangerous
> > > things?
>
> > > o Non-linux users (that need antivurus software) are lame
> > >    people thatare unable to do anything?
>
> > > o Both?
>
> > > o None?
>
> > The comic strip can be interpreted any way you want to interpret it. I
> > thought it was quite funny because of the way the author portrayed the
> > linux user v's non linux user, if that is the case or just how I
> > interpreted it ( maybe the salesman is also a linux user.
>
> In other words you don't get it either.
>
Not at all.

I get it, do you?

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