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Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated???

From Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c, comp.lang.c++
Subject Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated???
Date 2022-09-27 13:26 +0000
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <tgutm0$pp1$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References (3 earlier) <tgk5qc$2h0hh$1@dont-email.me> <tgrnao$3gj$1@gioia.aioe.org> <tgs3un$3nr9v$1@dont-email.me> <tgsd4k$lcr$1@gioia.aioe.org> <tgufba$1dae$1@dont-email.me>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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In comp.lang.c++ David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>>> However, it's taken until C++20 to get designated
>>> initialisers in C++, which suggests that they were not viewed as the
>>> most important feature (though there has certainly been plenty of call
>>> for them in C++).
>> 
>> And C++20 ruined one of the best aspects of them: The fact that you don't
>> need to know the order in which the member variables have been defined
>> in the struct.
> 
> I agree with that.  It strikes me as a strange requirement - just like 
> the insistence that initialisers in a constructor match the declaration 
> order.  Perhaps there is some clear, logical reason for that restriction 
> (and perhaps someone could tell me what it is?).

I understand that C++ wants member variables to be initialized in strict
order of declaration (which in the case of C++ in particular can make
quite a difference if those initializations have side effects), but when
it comes to designated initializers I really think that the C++20 standard
should have allowed any order in the initialization list, and simply
declared that if the initializers are not specified in the same order
as the members have been declared, the behavior is "implementation-defined".
In other words, if the initializers are listed in the correct order, the
behavior is well-defined, but if they are in another order it's up to the
compiler whether it will reorder them to match the declaration order, or
initialize the members in the order specified in the list. (In other
words, if the initializers have side effects, you can't rely on them
being done in any particular order.)

(Another possibility is that it could have made an exception with POD
types, and allow out-of-order initialization with those.)

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“Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated” Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2022-09-21 14:04 -0500
  Re: “Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated” "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-09-21 12:28 -0700
  Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-22 06:16 +0000
    Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-22 09:45 +0200
    Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluemanedhawk@gmail.com> - 2022-09-26 02:07 -0400
      Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-26 08:42 +0200
        Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-09-26 15:24 +0000
          Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-09-26 09:00 -0700
            Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-09-26 16:11 +0000
              Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2022-09-26 09:22 -0700
  Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-22 09:41 +0000
    Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-22 16:46 +0100
      Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2022-09-22 16:15 +0000
      Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-22 20:43 +0200
        Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-22 20:15 +0100
          Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-22 22:56 +0200
            Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-22 23:15 +0100
              g++ with -O6 slower than with  -O2 [was Re: "Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated"] Ralf Goertz <me@myprovider.invalid> - 2022-09-23 13:44 +0200
                Re: g++ with -O6 slower than with -O2 [was Re: "Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated"] Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-23 13:53 +0100
                Re: g++ with -O6 slower than with -O2 [was Re: "Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated"] David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-23 15:31 +0200
                Re: g++ with -O6 slower than with -O2 [was Re: "Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated"] David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-23 15:53 +0200
                Re: g++ with -O6 slower than with -O2 [was Re: "Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated"] Ralf Goertz <me@myprovider.invalid> - 2022-09-23 16:21 +0200
                Re: g++ with -O6 slower than with -O2 [was Re: "Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated"] David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-24 17:05 +0200
                Re: g++ with -O6 slower than with -O2 [was Re: "Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated"] red floyd <no.spam.here@its.invalid> - 2022-09-24 12:33 -0700
                Re: g++ with -O6 slower than with -O2 [was Re: "Microsoft Azure CTO Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-09-25 08:45 +0000
            Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-23 00:08 +0100
            Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-23 07:45 +0000
              Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2022-09-23 12:13 +0300
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-23 10:01 +0000
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2022-09-23 03:14 -0700
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-26 08:01 +0000
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-10-02 12:57 -0700
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2022-10-02 13:53 -0700
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-10-07 16:00 -0700
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2022-10-08 10:57 -0700
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-10-09 08:33 -0700
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-23 11:58 +0100
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-26 08:01 +0000
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluemanedhawk@gmail.com> - 2022-09-26 02:03 -0400
              Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-23 13:32 +0200
              Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? red floyd <no.spam.here@its.invalid> - 2022-09-23 14:43 -0700
        Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-23 07:26 +0000
          Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-23 11:15 +0100
          Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-23 12:35 -0700
            Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-09-23 12:44 -0700
            Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-26 08:09 +0000
    Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-09-24 13:25 +0200
      Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-26 08:13 +0000
        Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-26 10:44 -0700
          Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-27 06:26 +0000
            Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2022-09-27 09:56 -0600
            Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-27 10:50 -0700
    Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluemanedhawk@gmail.com> - 2022-09-26 01:57 -0400
  Re: “Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated” Jens Stuckelberger <Jens_Stuckelberger@nowhere.net> - 2022-09-22 14:01 +0000
  Re: “Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated” Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-23 03:17 +0000
    Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-23 07:50 +0000
      Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-23 13:37 +0200
        Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-26 08:19 +0000
          Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-26 13:55 +0200
            Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-26 14:31 +0000
              Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-09-26 16:05 +0100
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-27 06:36 +0000
              Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-27 11:21 +0200
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-27 13:26 +0000
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2022-09-27 16:53 +0200
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-28 10:32 +0200
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-27 18:18 +0000
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2022-09-28 01:30 -0400
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-28 08:26 +0000
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2022-09-28 10:43 +0200
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2022-09-28 13:15 -0400
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-28 23:38 +0000
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-29 11:46 +0200
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-29 17:58 +0000
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-30 09:17 +0200
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-30 16:39 +0000
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-10-01 12:47 +0200
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-30 17:20 +0000
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2022-09-30 20:59 +0300
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-10-02 07:31 -0700
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-10-02 13:38 +0200
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-10-02 13:00 +0100
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-10-02 16:20 +0200
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-10-02 22:05 +0200
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-10-03 11:58 +0200
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-10-02 07:24 -0700
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-28 09:40 +0200
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-09-28 07:56 -0400
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-28 15:50 +0200
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-28 14:21 +0000
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-28 16:17 +0000
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-28 16:56 +0000
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2022-09-28 20:31 +0200
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) - 2022-09-28 21:45 +0000
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-29 11:50 +0200
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-09-28 19:33 -0400
            Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2022-09-26 09:04 -0600
              Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-27 11:27 +0200
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2022-09-27 08:11 -0600
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-27 18:10 +0200
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2022-09-27 17:30 -0600
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-28 00:26 +0000
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-28 11:00 +0200
                Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-09-28 13:33 +0100
      Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-09-25 19:31 +0200
        Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2022-09-26 04:53 +0000
        Re: ???Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated??? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-10-02 12:59 -0700
  Re: “Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated” Opus <ifonly@youknew.org> - 2022-09-23 18:32 +0200
  Re: “Microsoft Azure CTO Mark Russinovich: C/C++ should be deprecated” Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluemanedhawk@gmail.com> - 2022-09-26 02:08 -0400

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