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Groups > comp.lang.c++ > #89455
| From | Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c++ |
| Subject | Re: Is this safe? |
| Date | 2023-03-05 20:44 +0000 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <87ilfflyh2.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink) |
| References | (16 earlier) <25e79655-f3a1-457e-afdd-f8004e4d4104n@googlegroups.com> <87o7p9wluy.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <55764440-3765-4f08-9b48-05853042ab52n@googlegroups.com> <87fsaknn3c.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <369f1c30-4041-4461-bfbc-628e76aed744n@googlegroups.com> |
Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:
> On Saturday, 4 March 2023 at 22:55:37 UTC, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.ar...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> > On Friday, 3 March 2023 at 21:45:09 UTC, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> >> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.ar...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >>
>> >> > On Wednesday, 1 March 2023 at 21:13:59 UTC, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> >> >> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.ar...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Wednesday, 1 March 2023 at 19:56:23 UTC, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> >> >> >> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.ar...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > On Wednesday, 1 March 2023 at 09:38:08 UTC, Mut...@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 28 Feb 2023 18:34:10 +0100
>> >> >> >> >> David Brown <david...@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >On 28/02/2023 16:56, Mut...@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >> A function can follow specifications to the letter and still have hidden
>> >> >> >> >> >> bugs.
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >The /specification/ can have bugs or be inappropriate in some way. The
>> >> >> >> >> >/hardware/ can have bugs. But if a piece of code gives the specified
>> >> >> >> >> >output and effects for the specified inputs, then it is correct and
>> >> >> >> >> >bug-free.
>> >> >> >> >> Really?
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Spec: function always returns 10
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> int func()
>> >> >> >> >> {
>> >> >> >> >> char *ptr = 0;
>> >> >> >> >> for(int i=0;i < 100000;++i) ptr[i] = 0;
>> >> >> >> >> return 10;
>> >> >> >> >> }
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Bug free?
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > A better example would be
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > int func()
>> >> >> >> > {
>> >> >> >> > char *ptr = malloc(1);
>> >> >> >> > return 10;
>> >> >> >> > }
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > This function will always return 10, so it's to specification. But
>> >> >> >> > it's the source of a bug.
>> >> >> >> This is a better example (because it has defined behaviour), but does
>> >> >> >> the function meet the specification? I would say that, speaking
>> >> >> >> informally, specifications are taken to be minimal. Would
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> int func() { getchar(); return 10; }
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> meet the specification as well?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> > This is where you get trapped by C's misuse of the term "function".
>> >> >> > If the term "function" were used in the proper mathematical sense,
>> >> >> > then the program's memory would be in one state on function entry and
>> >> >> > another on function return, and so you can't have a function without a
>> >> >> > specification.
>> >> >> No, that's not the issue. Of course it would help if functions were
>> >> >> functions, but the terminology is not the issue here. A sin function
>> >> >> (in some unimpeachable language like Haskell) that did all sorts of
>> >> >> other computations and took an hour, or used half the available memory,
>> >> >> would not meet the specification because, in my book, the specification
>> >> >> should be taken to be minimal.
>> >> >> > But C "functions" can perform actions. Specifying correct actions is a whole
>> >> >> > different ball game to specifying functions, which are just mappings from
>> >> >> > one set to another.
>> >> >> So lets' call them all "procedures" for the moment and get back to the
>> >> >> question at hand. Should a specification be taken to be essentially
>> >> >> minimal? I would say so.
>> >> >>
>> >> > If functions are functions then the bits on function entry define the
>> >> > state of the bits on function exit, and if they match, the function is
>> >> > correct.
>> >> I think the first "functions" refers to C function but second does not
>> >> refer to either mathematical functions nor, say, functions in Haskell so
>> >> I think you are talking about what I once referred to as
>> >> Malcolm-functions. Unfortunately I don't remember enough about what you
>> >> mean by the term to do anything but agree with the consequent.
>> >>
>> > A Malcolm function is that subset of mathematical functions which can
>> > be implemented by programming languages. A mathematical function is a
>> > mapping from an input set to an output set such that for every member
>> > of the input set there is one and only member of the output set. Since
>> > Malcolm functions are programming entities, the input set has to
>> > ultimately be bits, and the output set also ultimately has to be
>> > bits. So bits on function entry determines bits on function
>> > exit. Unlike "pure functions" there are no special syntactical or data
>> > hiding requirement on Malcolm functions. To all intents and purposes,
>> > the term is identical in meaning to the term "function", used in the
>> > accepted sense in a computer context, not in the C sense to mean
>> > "subroutine".
>> I don't know what bits are involved. You can't mean just the bits in
>> the parameter and return values or
>> int func() { getchar(); return 10; }
>> would be a Malcolm function, and you can't mean all the bits in the
>> entire (virtual) system or the specification for such a function would
>> be ridiculous.
>>
> A mathematical function doesn't cease to be a mathematical function
> because its specification is ridiculous.
Of course. And the same would be true of non-mathematical functions as
well. I'm trying to find out how your functions are specified. How is
the Malcolm function that "just returns 10" specified?
> If each possible bit state on code entry maps to one and only one
> possible bit state on code exit, and the code doesn't do anything
> else, like turn LEDs on or off, then the code is a "function" or if
> you prefer, a "Malcolm function".
So
int f(int x) { extern int inc; return x + inc++; }
is a Malcolm function, yes?
--
Ben.
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Is this safe? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-02-20 16:45 +0000
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Re: Is this safe? Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2023-02-23 18:24 +0200
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Re: Is this safe? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-02-24 15:24 -0800
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Re: Is this safe? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-02-23 22:12 -0500
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Re: Is this safe? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-02-25 16:25 +0100
Re: Is this safe? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-02-25 15:45 +0000
Re: Is this safe? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-02-25 19:15 +0100
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Re: Is this safe? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-02-27 10:40 +0100
Re: Is this safe? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-02-27 10:24 +0000
Re: Is this safe? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-02-27 18:31 +0100
Re: Is this safe? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-02-28 08:38 +0000
Re: Is this safe? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2023-02-28 01:33 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-02-28 10:17 +0000
Re: Is this safe? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2023-02-28 02:43 -0800
Re: Is this safe? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-02-28 16:50 +0100
Re: Is this safe? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2023-02-28 03:19 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-02-28 08:10 -0500
Re: Is this safe? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2023-02-28 05:42 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-02-28 09:39 -0500
Re: Is this safe? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2023-02-28 07:12 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-02-28 11:29 -0500
Re: Is this safe? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-02-28 16:45 +0100
Re: Is this safe? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2023-02-28 11:31 -0800
Re: Is this safe? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-02-28 20:59 +0100
Re: Is this safe? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-03-01 14:29 -0800
Re: Is this safe? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-02-28 16:37 +0100
Re: Is this safe? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-02-28 15:56 +0000
Re: Is this safe? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-02-28 18:34 +0100
Re: Is this safe? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-03-01 09:37 +0000
Re: Is this safe? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2023-03-01 02:29 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-03-01 19:56 +0000
Re: Is this safe? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2023-03-01 12:53 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-03-01 21:13 +0000
Re: Is this safe? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2023-03-02 01:48 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-03-03 21:44 +0000
Re: Is this safe? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2023-03-03 20:16 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-03-04 22:55 +0000
Re: Is this safe? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2023-03-05 07:11 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-03-05 20:44 +0000
Re: Is this safe? Mr Flibble <flibble2@reddwarf.jmc.corp> - 2023-03-05 21:00 +0000
Re: Is this safe? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-03-05 13:59 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Mr Flibble <flibble2@reddwarf.jmc.corp> - 2023-03-05 23:07 +0000
Re: Is this safe? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-03-06 00:22 +0000
Re: Is this safe? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2023-03-05 14:26 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-03-06 00:51 +0000
Re: Is this safe? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2023-03-06 02:17 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-03-05 08:13 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2023-03-05 09:05 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-03-14 09:47 -0700
Re: Is this safe? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-03-01 14:40 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-03-02 09:07 +0000
Re: Is this safe? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-03-01 21:37 -0500
Re: Is this safe? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2023-03-01 22:30 -0800
Re: Is this safe? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-03-01 14:27 +0100
Re: Is this safe? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-03-01 10:48 -0800
Re: Is this safe? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-03-02 10:29 +0100
Re: Is this safe? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-03-01 19:53 +0000
Re: Is this safe? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-03-02 09:08 +0000
Re: Is this safe? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2023-03-02 01:32 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-03-02 09:56 +0000
Re: Is this safe? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2023-03-02 04:02 -0800
Re: Is this safe? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-03-02 15:00 +0100
Re: Is this safe? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2023-03-02 07:59 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-03-02 15:38 +0000
Re: Is this safe? "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-03-02 11:16 -0800
Re: Is this safe? "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-03-02 11:08 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-03-03 09:53 +0000
Re: Is this safe? "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-03-04 06:47 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-03-02 19:35 +0000
Re: Is this safe? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2023-02-28 17:40 +0100
Re: Is this safe? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-02-24 12:16 -0500
Re: Is this safe? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-02-24 18:39 +0100
Re: Is this safe? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-02-24 10:03 -0800
Re: Is this safe? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-02-24 19:59 +0100
Re: Is this safe? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2023-02-25 06:47 +0100
Re: Is this safe? Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2023-02-25 10:23 +0200
Re: Is this safe? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2023-02-23 07:16 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-02-23 14:31 -0800
Re: Is this safe? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2023-02-23 16:34 +0100
Re: Is this safe? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-02-23 16:15 +0000
Re: Is this safe? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2023-02-24 12:17 +0100
Re: Is this safe? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-02-24 12:24 +0000
Re: Is this safe? Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2023-02-24 15:18 +0200
Re: Is this safe? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-02-24 15:55 +0000
Re: Is this safe? Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2023-02-24 18:20 +0200
Re: Is this safe? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-02-24 17:05 +0000
Re: Is this safe? Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2023-02-24 19:24 +0200
Re: Is this safe? "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-02-24 09:46 -0800
Re: Is this safe? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-02-24 17:30 +0100
Re: Is this safe? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-02-23 17:12 +0000
Re: Is this safe? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2023-02-23 02:47 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-02-23 15:59 +0000
Re: Is this safe? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-02-23 11:55 -0500
Re: Is this safe? "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-02-23 08:37 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-02-23 14:19 -0800
Re: Is this safe? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-02-23 17:09 +0000
Re: Is this safe? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-02-23 12:21 -0500
Re: Is this safe? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-02-23 17:55 +0000
Re: Is this safe? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-02-23 13:57 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2023-02-23 17:28 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-02-23 21:44 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-02-24 08:48 -0800
Re: Is this safe? "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-02-21 10:58 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-02-22 09:26 +0000
Re: Is this safe? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2023-02-22 22:34 +0100
Re: Is this safe? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-02-23 09:29 +0000
Re: Is this safe? "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-02-23 08:28 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-02-23 17:16 +0000
Re: Is this safe? "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-02-23 22:24 -0800
Re: Is this safe? "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-02-22 21:30 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-02-23 09:31 +0000
Re: Is this safe? "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-02-23 22:00 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-02-23 22:20 -0800
Re: Is this safe? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-02-24 01:34 -0500
Re: Is this safe? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-02-24 10:32 +0000
Re: Is this safe? "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-02-25 00:19 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2023-02-22 08:09 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2023-02-21 22:32 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-02-22 08:32 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-02-22 09:17 -0800
Re: Is this safe? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2023-04-04 23:28 -0700
Re: Is this safe? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-04-05 11:08 -0700
Re: Is this safe? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2023-02-21 08:15 -0800
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