Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.dcom.telecom > #275 > unrolled thread

Does FiOS support rotary phones? [telecom]

Back to article view | Back to comp.dcom.telecom

Contents

  Does FiOS support rotary phones? [telecom] "AJB Consulting" <ajbcs@frontier.com> - 2011-04-02 19:01 -0400
    Re: Does FiOS support rotary phones? [telecom] moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2011-04-04 02:44 +0000
    Re: Does FiOS support rotary phones?  [telecom] John Stahl <aljon@stny.rr.com> - 2011-04-04 07:13 -0400
      Re: Does FiOS support rotary phones?  [telecom] T <kd1s.nospam@cox.nospam.net> - 2011-04-11 07:51 -0400
    Re: Does FiOS support rotary phones? [telecom] David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> - 2011-04-04 16:38 +0000
      Re: Does FiOS support rotary phones? [telecom] "Gary" <bogus-email@hotmail.com> - 2011-04-10 14:10 -0400
      Re: Does FiOS support rotary phones? [telecom] tls@panix.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) - 2011-04-30 13:02 +0000
        Re: Does FiOS support rotary phones? [telecom] "D. W." <indianut@gmail.com> - 2011-06-07 15:39 -0700
      Re: Does FiOS support rotary phones? [telecom] tls@panix.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) - 2011-04-28 14:37 +0000
        Re: Does FiOS support rotary phones? [telecom] T <kd1s.nospam@cox.nospam.net> - 2011-04-29 19:15 -0400
    Re: Does FiOS support rotary phones? [telecom] "Gary" <bogus-email@hotmail.com> - 2011-04-10 14:30 -0400
    Re: Does FiOS support rotary phones? [telecom] tls@panix.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) - 2011-04-28 14:35 +0000
      Re: Does FiOS support rotary phones? [telecom] tls@panix.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) - 2011-04-28 15:55 +0000

#275 — Does FiOS support rotary phones? [telecom]

Our esteemed moderator wrote:

>***** Moderator's Note *****

>AFAIK, FiOS terminates the "fiber" portion of the path at a local CEV,
>and the physical layer is Coaxial cable from there to the homes. That,
>at least, is the way my sister's FiOS install happened, and I don't
>think the CEV equipment is powered from the CO. That means that FiOS
>is subject to the same limits as any SLC-served POTS line.

>FWIW. YMMV. My 2 cents.

>Bill Horne
>Moderator 

Bill, what you described sounds more like the AT&T U-verse system.

Every FiOS install I have ever seen uses an ONT [Optical Network 
Termination] in the subscriber's home. The acronym dissects [supposedly] 
to "Fiber In Off the Street," after all... Or else it is named after 
a parish in Northern Spain. ;)

Jim
**************************************************
Speaking from a secure undisclosed location.

***** Moderator's Note *****

I suppose it's possible that the cable which came in from the street
was, in fact, a fiber-optic cable: the Verizon tech told me it was
coaxial, but that might be a misnomer.

The tech told me that the cable used "Moca" format, and when I asked
how it compared to Docsis, he just said "It's better".

I'll leave it to the experts to explain my confusion away.

--
Bill Horne
Moderator

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#288

>***** Moderator's Note *****

>I suppose it's possible that the cable which came in from the street
>was, in fact, a fiber-optic cable: the Verizon tech told me it was
>coaxial, but that might be a misnomer.

>The tech told me that the cable used "Moca" format, and when I asked
>how it compared to Docsis, he just said "It's better".

>I'll leave it to the experts to explain my confusion away.

I have FiOS.  They did run fiber from the pole out front.  I examined
the "cable" myself.  Definitely not coax.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#291 — Re: Does FiOS support rotary phones? [telecom]

>***** Moderator's Note *****
>
>I suppose it's possible that the cable which came in from the street
>was, in fact, a fiber-optic cable: the Verizon tech told me it was
>coaxial, but that might be a misnomer.
>
>The tech told me that the cable used "Moca" format, and when I asked
>how it compared to Docsis, he just said "It's better".
>
>I'll leave it to the experts to explain my confusion away.
>
>--
>Bill Horne
>Moderator

According to info gleaned from the Internet, the Verizon techie's
answer (above) that the house drop is "Moca" format instead of
fiber. seems to be based on yet another "service" which has industry
support through an organization. The organization known as Multimedia
over Coax Alliance (MoCA) which (according to their web site) has a
diverse corporation membership which includes equipment supplier
companies as: Broadcom, Cisco, Motorola, Panasonic, and Trident. Plus
has end users such as: Verizon, Comcast, Cox, and Echostar.

The web site address is: http://www.mocalliance.org/

The techie stuff on the site seems to indicate that the supplier of
"entertainment" services can utilize existing coax drops to the
premise thus (I guess) saving costs by not having to replace the last
connection drop. Since Verizon is a group member, it seems logical for
them to utilize this "standard" to help cut their installed costs.

John
______________________________
John Stahl
Aljon Enterprises
Data and Telecom Consultants
email: aljon-at-stny.rr.com

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#337 — Re: Does FiOS support rotary phones? [telecom]

John Stahl said:
> In article <E8.00.22479.DC7A99D4@hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com>, 
> aljon@stny.rr.com says...
> 
>> ***** Moderator's Note *****
>>
>> I suppose it's possible that the cable which came in from the
>> street was, in fact, a fiber-optic cable: the Verizon tech told me
>> it was coaxial, but that might be a misnomer.

[Moderator snip]

> The techie stuff on the site seems to indicate that the supplier of
> "entertainment" services can utilize existing coax drops to the
> premise thus (I guess) saving costs by not having to replace the last
> connection drop. Since Verizon is a group member, it seems logical for
> them to utilize this "standard" to help cut their installed costs.

The way I've seen FiOS implement here is as follows:

Fiber drop to an Alcatel box. The Alcatel box puts out a coppper pair 
for phone service and coaxial for television and net service. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#295

>***** Moderator's Note *****

> I suppose it's possible that the cable which came in from the street
> was, in fact, a fiber-optic cable: the Verizon tech told me it was
> coaxial, but that might be a misnomer.

> The tech told me that the cable used "Moca" format, and when I asked
> how it compared to Docsis, he just said "It's better".

> I'll leave it to the experts to explain my confusion away.

He's the confused one....not you.

I see no way that Verizontal ever puts the ONT anywhere but inside the
residence, for a basic reason: what would power it out there on the
pole? Further, since it's the vict^H^H^H^H subscriber's job to not
just supply it power but also buy & install new batteries..who will
climb the pole...?

Obviously in a MDU, where there's one multiport unit; it's slightly
different. There, your unit does get POTS via existing twisted pair
and TV & TCP/IP via MOCA/coax.

They do use MOCA, but the reason to do so is to save time {money} on
installations. They need their Set Top Box to have both TV and TCP/IP
feeds; if it does not get TCP/IP, it can't sell you pay per view.

BUT, while the ONT can supply TCP/IP out either the RJ45 jacks 
OR atop the coax via MOCA. it can not [do] both. And since there's
{presumably} coax to the TV now, but not CAT5, they started providing
routers with MOCA in, RJ45 out.

In fact, it's a screwy mess, as the router has to back-feed back
to the ONT to deliver TCP/IP via MOCA to the STB's. Somewhere
there's a good writeup on same. 

I wonder if we're ever see a MOCA -> POTS adapter unit as well.
Unlikely.

Further, the first generation of MOCA "Actiontec" routers sucked
sharp rocks and brought howls. Later ones may be better; there
are now pages telling you how to turn the miserable Actiontecs
into a bridge where it does less damage.

As for power backup, I can't grasp why people are putting the
ONT's on a UPS. A UPS takes AC and makes DC to charge a battery
to later turn it back into AC again...so the ONT can make DC
from it. And loses efficiency at every step.

It's my understanding that all the ONT's have a 2nd battery
input, and if you feed it 13.8vdc, it runs. So go buy a big
"gel cell" or if you have the space, a 50AH deep cycle marine
battery; and a $5 trickle charger. THAT will keep you going when
Reddy Kilowatt goes on strike.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#332

"David Lesher"  wrote in message news:incs58$5lr$1@reader1.panix.com...
>
> As for power backup, I can't grasp why people are putting the
> ONT's on a UPS. A UPS takes AC and makes DC to charge a battery
> to later turn it back into AC again...so the ONT can make DC
> from it. And loses efficiency at every step.
>
> It's my understanding that all the ONT's have a 2nd battery
> input, and if you feed it 13.8vdc, it runs. So go buy a big
> "gel cell" or if you have the space, a 50AH deep cycle marine
> battery; and a $5 trickle charger. THAT will keep you going when
> Reddy Kilowatt goes on strike.

To answer your question (at least for me):

A) It's easy.  A brand new small (~500VA) UPS can be had for <$50 on sale. 
Plug it in and go.  Buy a new one every few years as they are often cheaper 
on sale than the cost of a new battery.

B) Said small UPS can also run the router and any other necessary network 
gear, so I can still access the internet.  One of my computers is a laptop, 
so it's got it's own built in "back up power;" it's battery.  If I put a 
deep cycle battery on the ONT, I'd still need the UPS to keep the router up 
and running.

C) I don't care about the efficiency looses.  I'm only running an amp or two 
at most through this setup (ONT, router, switch), so the energy lost isn't a 
big concern.

It all boils down to how much runtime you think you need, how much battery 
you need to buy to cover potential outages, and your budget.  For me, I've 
got reliable power.  In the last 10 years, I can't recall an outage over 30 
minutes.  So, a small UPS is perfect for my home.  If I lived somewhere with 
longer outages, I might have a deep cycle battery and a big UPS, or even a 
back up gas fired generator depending on what I felt like spending.

Hope that helps you grasp why a small UPS is okay, at least for me.  YMMV.

Thanks,

-Gary

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#518

In article <MPG.282510b45aa72c30989d2f@news.eternal-september.org>,
T  <kd1s.nospam@cox.nospam.net> wrote:
>In article <ipbu44$72m$2@reader1.panix.com>, tls@panix.com says...
>> 
>> In article <incs58$5lr$1@reader1.panix.com>,
>> David Lesher  <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >Obviously in a MDU, where there's one multiport unit; it's slightly
>> >different. There, your unit does get POTS via existing twisted pair
>> >and TV & TCP/IP via MOCA/coax.
>> 
>> It's not different.  This isn't how Verizon wires multiple dwellings,
>> likely because they do not want to maintain or are (with good reason)
>> concerned they could not get permission to install duplicative coax
>> cable in structures already served by the local cableco.
>
>Ha! Around here they vampire the coax left in place by the predominant 
>carrier to get the net and CATV signal into the domicile. 

But not in multiple dwellings, right?  That would require them to either
install a duplicate network of coax feeding each "lit" unit, or for the
owner of the MDU to have completely kicked the other carrier out -- they
can't run MOCA over the same cable someone else is running digital cable
and DOCSIS on.  Or can they?

-- 
Thor Lancelot Simon	                                         tls@panix.com
    And now he couldn't remember when this passion had flown, leaving him so
  foolish and bewildered and astray: can any man?
						   William Styron

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#731

My Rotary Phones work just fine with the FIOS Service!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#525

In article <incs58$5lr$1@reader1.panix.com>,
David Lesher  <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote:
>>***** Moderator's Note *****
>
>> I suppose it's possible that the cable which came in from the street
>> was, in fact, a fiber-optic cable: the Verizon tech told me it was
>> coaxial, but that might be a misnomer.
>
>> The tech told me that the cable used "Moca" format, and when I asked
>> how it compared to Docsis, he just said "It's better".
>
>> I'll leave it to the experts to explain my confusion away.
>
>He's the confused one....not you.
>
>I see no way that Verizontal ever puts the ONT anywhere but inside the
>residence, for a basic reason: what would power it out there on the
>pole? Further, since it's the vict^H^H^H^H subscriber's job to not
>just supply it power but also buy & install new batteries..who will
>climb the pole...?
>
>Obviously in a MDU, where there's one multiport unit; it's slightly
>different. There, your unit does get POTS via existing twisted pair
>and TV & TCP/IP via MOCA/coax.

It's not different.  This isn't how Verizon wires multiple dwellings,
likely because they do not want to maintain or are (with good reason)
concerned they could not get permission to install duplicative coax
cable in structures already served by the local cableco.

-- 
Thor Lancelot Simon	                                         tls@panix.com
    And now he couldn't remember when this passion had flown, leaving him so
  foolish and bewildered and astray: can any man?
						   William Styron

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#549

In article <ipbu44$72m$2@reader1.panix.com>, tls@panix.com says...
> 
> In article <incs58$5lr$1@reader1.panix.com>,
> David Lesher  <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote:
> >>***** Moderator's Note *****
> >
> >> I suppose it's possible that the cable which came in from the street
> >> was, in fact, a fiber-optic cable: the Verizon tech told me it was
> >> coaxial, but that might be a misnomer.
> >
> >> The tech told me that the cable used "Moca" format, and when I asked
> >> how it compared to Docsis, he just said "It's better".
> >
> >> I'll leave it to the experts to explain my confusion away.
> >
> >He's the confused one....not you.
> >
> >I see no way that Verizontal ever puts the ONT anywhere but inside the
> >residence, for a basic reason: what would power it out there on the
> >pole? Further, since it's the vict^H^H^H^H subscriber's job to not
> >just supply it power but also buy & install new batteries..who will
> >climb the pole...?
> >
> >Obviously in a MDU, where there's one multiport unit; it's slightly
> >different. There, your unit does get POTS via existing twisted pair
> >and TV & TCP/IP via MOCA/coax.
> 
> It's not different.  This isn't how Verizon wires multiple dwellings,
> likely because they do not want to maintain or are (with good reason)
> concerned they could not get permission to install duplicative coax
> cable in structures already served by the local cableco.

Ha! Around here they vampire the coax left in place by the predominant 
carrier to get the net and CATV signal into the domicile. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#333

***** Moderator's Note *****
>
> I suppose it's possible that the cable which came in from the street
> was, in fact, a fiber-optic cable: the Verizon tech told me it was
> coaxial, but that might be a misnomer.
>
> The tech told me that the cable used "Moca" format, and when I asked
> how it compared to Docsis, he just said "It's better".
>
> I'll leave it to the experts to explain my confusion away.

DOCSIS was developed to pass data over coax used for cable TV services.  As 
such, a single DOCSIS channel uses exactly one (analog) TV channel's worth 
of bandwidth.  This is 6 MHz in the United States (8 MHz elsewhere in the 
world).  DOCSIS uses QAM modulation to pass 38 Mbps of data (after error 
correction) downstream using one of the 100's of channels available in a 
typical cable systems.  Typical cable systems use RF spectrum from around 
100 MHz to 650 MHz, 750 MHz, 850 MHz or even 1GHz.  Upstream channels are 
carried in the low end of the spectrum and are much slower.

DOCSIS signals pass through the cable system just like any other video 
signal (in fact, they are identical to digital video at the lowest OSI 
layers).  If a cable system can pass digital video, it can pass DOCSIS.

DOCSIS 3.0 allows channels to be bonded to get data rates higher than 38 
Mbps.

MoCA, on the other hand, was developed to distribute high speed data WITHIN 
a home.  It runs over coax, based on the assumption that most homes have a 
coax distribution network but not cat-5 or cat-6.  It operates above the 
frequencies used for cable channels (including DOCSIS) so as not to 
interfere with the TV services on the coax.  I think it is centered around 
1.5 GHz, but I could be wrong.  I don't recall the data rate of MoCA, but I 
believe it is higher than DOCSIS.  MoCA is designed to go backwards through 
coax splitters to allow most home coax topologies to be supported.

Verizon uses MoCA to communicate between the set-top boxes and the ONT.  The 
router acts as a gateway and manager for the control communications.  MoCA 
carries upstream commands from the set top boxes to the ONT, then the ONT 
sends them over the fiber back to the video head end.  Video on demand can 
also be carried over MoCA, as the data bandwidth is sufficient for video 
service.

In my home, I've FiOS for data and phone - no video.  I've got Ethernet from 
the ONT to my router.  I don't use MoCA or coax.  If I ever use FiOS for 
video, I'll have to change to coax/MoCA.

In short, DOCSIS is a WAN technology while MoCA is a LAN.

-Gary

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#526

In article <000501cbf189$db2d6530$01fea8c0@dell8100>,
AJB Consulting <ajbcs@frontier.com> wrote:
>Our esteemed moderator wrote:
>
>>***** Moderator's Note *****
>
>>AFAIK, FiOS terminates the "fiber" portion of the path at a local CEV,
>>and the physical layer is Coaxial cable from there to the homes. That,
>>at least, is the way my sister's FiOS install happened, and I don't
>>think the CEV equipment is powered from the CO. That means that FiOS
>>is subject to the same limits as any SLC-served POTS line.
>
>>FWIW. YMMV. My 2 cents.
>
>>Bill Horne
>>Moderator 
>
>Bill, what you described sounds more like the AT&T U-verse system.
>
>Every FiOS install I have ever seen uses an ONT [Optical Network 
>Termination] in the subscriber's home. The acronym dissects [supposedly] 
>to "Fiber In Off the Street," after all... Or else it is named after 
>a parish in Northern Spain. ;)

I can confirm this.  I happen to have on my desk right now a Verizon
FiOS wiring plan for a 300-unit multiple dwelling in New York City.

It has a separate fiber drop to every apartment and an ONT in each
apartment that is subscribed to Verizon service.  It has two layers
of passive optical hubs and no powered components -- or, at least, no
components that require building power.  Whether any of the optical
components are actually powered to allow remote testing, etc. I do
not know but would tend to speculate likely not.  I believe there
is really, truly, a 300 fiber bundle running in from the street and
that it's not actively multiplexed until that location.  Maybe
there are totally passive ways to do DWDM now so the passive "hubs"
in the building actually have unpowered frequency multipliers/dividers
in them -- I do not know.

But it is unquestionably the case that even in multiple dwellings
(and in this case we are talking about 15 separate buildings served
by a single Verizon cable entrance!) VZ does bring the fiber all the
way to the ONT in the customer's home.

-- 
Thor Lancelot Simon	                                         tls@panix.com
    And now he couldn't remember when this passion had flown, leaving him so
  foolish and bewildered and astray: can any man?
						   William Styron

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#529

In article <ipbu08$72m$1@reader1.panix.com>,
Thor Lancelot Simon <tls@panix.com> wrote:
>
>not know but would tend to speculate likely not.  I believe there
>is really, truly, a 300 fiber bundle running in from the street and
>that it's not actively multiplexed until that location.  Maybe
>there are totally passive ways to do DWDM now so the passive "hubs"
>in the building actually have unpowered frequency multipliers/dividers
>in them -- I do not know.

I have looked into this a bit more; the above is not really correct in
two important respects.

1) The fiber "hubs" used by Verizon appear to be passive optical
   beam splitters/combiners.  The network is fully broadcast for
   downstream communications with a link layer beneath any standard
   Ethernet framing that emulates point-to-point Ethernet behavior
   (it would certainly seem that since there is a single downstream
   transmitter collisions really aren't possible so this should not
   be hard).  Downstream transmissions are encrypted so that, in theory,
   only a specific ONT can decrypt them.

   Upstream is a little funny.  The upstream signal supposedly
   propagates only towards the head end (how this is done optically
   I do not know but I'm sure it's possible), so encryption is not
   used.  I don't know how the head end handles collisions though
   it appears TDM in the upstream direction is used to attempt to
   assure they do not occur.

2) Fully passive DWDM/CWDM equipment is, in fact, available from several
   suppliers, but use of it in a PON deployment such as FiOS would be,
   at least, not something that is standardized.

So, the diagram I have that shows VZ entering the building in question
with two fibers -- not 300 -- is almost certainly correct in that detail,
and I was speaking whereof I knew not.

-- 
Thor Lancelot Simon	                                         tls@panix.com
    And now he couldn't remember when this passion had flown, leaving him so
  foolish and bewildered and astray: can any man?
						   William Styron

[toc] | [prev] | [standalone]

Back to top | Article view | comp.dcom.telecom

csiph-web