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Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #30035 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2020-10-29 20:17 -0700 |
| Last post | 2020-11-18 03:20 -0800 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 81 — 23 participants |
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Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-10-29 20:17 -0700
Re: Good Hardware Tools Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-10-29 23:52 -0700
Re: Good Hardware Tools Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-10-30 10:19 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-10-31 00:21 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools Dave Nadler <drn@nadler.com> - 2020-10-30 17:56 -0700
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-10-30 20:40 -0700
Re: Good Hardware Tools Philip Martel <pmartel@alum.mit.edu> - 2020-10-31 14:54 -0400
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-04 20:13 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools kegs@provalid.com (Kent Dickey) - 2020-11-13 17:10 -0600
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-15 19:43 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Brett <ggtgp@yahoo.com> - 2020-11-16 19:31 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-17 01:50 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Stef <stef33d@yahooI-N-V-A-L-I-D.com.invalid> - 2020-11-17 11:14 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Brett <ggtgp@yahoo.com> - 2020-11-18 04:14 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2020-11-17 12:05 -0500
Re: Good Hardware Tools Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-17 10:06 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2020-11-17 16:02 -0500
Re: Good Hardware Tools Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2020-11-17 22:28 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-11-18 11:11 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2020-11-18 12:40 +0200
Re: Good Hardware Tools Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2020-11-18 14:51 +0200
Re: Good Hardware Tools Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2020-11-18 21:46 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-11-18 22:29 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-18 12:45 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-11-18 21:08 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2020-11-19 00:35 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2020-11-18 16:12 -0500
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-18 17:30 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-18 23:36 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2020-11-19 22:31 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-19 14:43 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2020-11-20 22:13 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-20 18:01 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools James Brakefield <jim.brakefield@ieee.org> - 2020-11-21 11:39 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-18 03:15 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-11-17 22:25 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Dave Nadler <drn@nadler.com> - 2020-11-17 16:30 -0500
Re: Good Hardware Tools Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-17 14:18 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2020-11-23 13:39 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-23 07:49 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2020-11-24 08:53 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-24 10:46 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-24 13:46 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2020-11-27 08:11 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-27 06:58 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-11-27 10:17 -0500
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-27 08:04 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2020-11-28 17:04 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2020-11-28 09:54 -0700
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-28 09:05 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2020-11-29 17:30 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-29 11:10 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2020-11-30 08:19 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-30 07:46 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2020-12-06 17:55 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-12-06 15:04 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Mat Nieuwenhoven <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2021-01-03 11:03 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools Brett <ggtgp@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-04 09:03 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2021-01-04 04:09 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Mat Nieuwenhoven <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2021-01-04 21:57 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-01-04 02:55 -0700
Re: Good Hardware Tools Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-11-28 20:53 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-28 15:16 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-11-28 20:57 -0500
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-28 18:07 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2020-11-29 10:43 +0200
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-29 11:00 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2020-11-30 08:01 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-30 07:40 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-11-30 15:41 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2020-11-29 15:22 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-29 11:04 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2020-11-29 14:46 -0700
Re: Good Hardware Tools "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2020-11-29 15:11 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-11-29 23:24 +0000
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-29 17:57 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> - 2020-11-30 08:32 +0100
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-30 08:03 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2020-11-16 13:13 -0800
Re: Good Hardware Tools kegs@provalid.com (Kent Dickey) - 2020-11-17 22:56 -0600
Re: Good Hardware Tools Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-11-18 03:20 -0800
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| From | "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-24 08:53 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <zavrhjmncnay.qkazxn0.pminews@nntp.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #30128 |
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 07:49:50 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: >On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 7:39:35 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: >> On Mon, 16 Nov 2020 19:31:28 -0000 (UTC), Brett wrote: >> >> <snip> >> >> In the winter I might have to turn off the HP during my electricity peak >> >> billing time and in the summer I'd have to chill the house in the AM to >> >> keep the temperatures down in the afternoon. lol, just kidding of >> >> course, but they do use a lot of power which gets turned into heat. At >> >> this moment, the laptop is the highest power drain that's running. I'd >> >> like to keep it that way. Heck, I'm considering replacing my fridge >> >> because the web says buying a new one will save enough electricity to pay >> >> for itself in five years or less. It's 30 years old too. >> >> >> > >> >The new fridge will fail in 5 years, planned obsolescence. >> >And the cost to run for your old fridge is a lie to get you to buy a new >> >one. >> >> It can really save money. My 21 year old 210/85L cool/freeze Bosch >> fridge failed, and it used 270 kWh/a (measured with an energy meter). >> And that one was for its time very efficient, 6 cm think walls of the >> cooling section. It needed one electronic repair on those 21 years. >> The replacement Liebherr, slightly larger inside, saves about 130 >> kWh/a . I fully expect it to last 20 years. >> >> Depending on your electricity price, it might not be a good idea to >> keep an old fridge running. >> >> Mat Nieuwenhoven > >What is kWh/a? Is that per year? The marginal cost of 130 kWh to me is hard to estimate as I'm on ToU metering so it varies from $0.08 per kWh to $0..33 per kWh. The lower bound for the electricity savings would be $10.40 per year. That's not very much. An average cost considering the time duration of the peak charges would be about twice that amount. > >If I could find a reliable timing device I would have the fridge not run during the expensive peak times. The longest peak time is 4 hours and I fully expect the temperature to not increase significantly in that time. When the AC turns off the house warms up by 2-3°F. I expect the fridge would rise a lesser amount given the very good insulation they now have. kWh/a is per year (annum), sorry. If you have an energy meter, measure your old fridge. I measured during two weeks in spring and again in autumn to estimate year use. A 30 years old fridge probably uses a lot of energy. I am on a constant price of 0.21eurocent (1 year contract), and the savings on electricity won't quite recoup the investment in the new fridge. But it had to be replaced anyway, and who knows what the price will do in the future, with ever more electirc cars. Mat Nieuwenhoven
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-24 10:46 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <8f76a370-6d9c-48f6-88b3-1a09939c028cn@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30129 |
On Tuesday, November 24, 2020 at 2:53:57 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: > > kWh/a is per year (annum), sorry. > If you have an energy meter, measure your old fridge. I measured > during two weeks in spring and again in autumn to estimate year use. > A 30 years old fridge probably uses a lot of energy. I am on a > constant price of 0.21eurocent (1 year contract), and the savings on > electricity won't quite recoup the investment in the new fridge. But > it had to be replaced anyway, and who knows what the price will do in > the future, with ever more electirc cars. Ok, so I guessed right. So far my fridge is working ok. It used to keep the freezer at 0°F (-18°C) and the fridge at <45°F (<10°C). Lately the fridge is warmer than 45 and my milk goes bad faster that I'd like. This might be ice blocking air flow from the freezer to the fridge or something. They use flaps to control the difference between the two compartments. I need to remove some covers and check it out. I expect it's not mice or the cats haven't been doing their jobs and they are all about patrolling for mice. A new fridge won't help me debug logic either. -- Rick C. -++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-24 13:46 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <87a6v6zauz.fsf@nightsong.com> |
| In reply to | #30131 |
Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> writes: > Ok, so I guessed right. So far my fridge is working ok. It used to > keep the freezer at 0°F (-18°C) and the fridge at <45°F (<10°C). 45F is too warm for a fridge--it should be below 40F: https://www.fsis.usda.gov/shared/PDF/Danger_Zone.pdf Your idea of leaving the fridge compressor off for 4 hours at a time should really be tested by logging the internal temperature during the 4 hour period. I'm a little bit skeptical of leaving a kitchen fridge turned off for that long, especially during the part of the day when people will be opening it. It might be a reasonable approach for a chest freezer that's rarely opened.
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| From | "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-27 08:11 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <zavrhjmncnay.qkghzc0.pminews@nntp.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #30131 |
On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 10:46:15 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: >On Tuesday, November 24, 2020 at 2:53:57 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: >> >> kWh/a is per year (annum), sorry. >> If you have an energy meter, measure your old fridge. I measured >> during two weeks in spring and again in autumn to estimate year use. >> A 30 years old fridge probably uses a lot of energy. I am on a >> constant price of 0.21eurocent (1 year contract), and the savings on >> electricity won't quite recoup the investment in the new fridge. But >> it had to be replaced anyway, and who knows what the price will do in >> the future, with ever more electirc cars. > >Ok, so I guessed right. So far my fridge is working ok. It used to keep the freezer at 0°F (-18°C) and the fridge at <45°F (<10°C). Lately the fridge is warmer than 45 and my milk goes bad faster that I'd like. This might be ice blocking air flow from the freezer to the fridge or something. They use flaps to control the difference between the two compartments. I need to remove some covers and check it out. I expect it's not mice or the cats haven't been doing their jobs and they are all about patrolling for mice. I keep ours at -18/+4 Centigrade. If I was in the habit of turning it off for a few hours every day, I'd use -19/-3 or so. If your fridge uses flaps it sure is old. I suggest you measure its energyconsumption. >A new fridge won't help me debug logic either. No, hot coffee does it for me :-) Mat Nieuwenhoven
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-27 06:58 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <948ca361-1dd7-4092-86bc-4dd8aae83ed0n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30143 |
On Friday, November 27, 2020 at 2:11:43 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: > On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 10:46:15 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: > > >On Tuesday, November 24, 2020 at 2:53:57 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: > >> > >> kWh/a is per year (annum), sorry. > >> If you have an energy meter, measure your old fridge. I measured > >> during two weeks in spring and again in autumn to estimate year use. > >> A 30 years old fridge probably uses a lot of energy. I am on a > >> constant price of 0.21eurocent (1 year contract), and the savings on > >> electricity won't quite recoup the investment in the new fridge. But > >> it had to be replaced anyway, and who knows what the price will do in > >> the future, with ever more electirc cars. > > > >Ok, so I guessed right. So far my fridge is working ok. It used to keep the freezer at 0°F (-18°C) and the fridge at <45°F (<10°C). Lately the fridge is warmer than 45 and my milk goes bad faster that I'd like. This might be ice blocking air flow from the freezer to the fridge or something. They use flaps to control the difference between the two compartments. I need to remove some covers and check it out. I expect it's not mice or the cats haven't been doing their jobs and they are all about patrolling for mice. > I keep ours at -18/+4 Centigrade. If I was in the habit of turning it > off for a few hours every day, I'd use -19/-3 or so. If your fridge > uses flaps it sure is old. I suggest you measure its > energyconsumption. > >A new fridge won't help me debug logic either. > No, hot coffee does it for me :-) > > Mat Nieuwenhoven How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two compartments when using a single compressor? If you set your refrigerator to -3°C, don't things freeze? My fridge would sometimes freeze things in the bottom when the temperature was set below 40°F (5°C). -- Rick C. +-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging +-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-27 10:17 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <xM8wH.7018$xQ7.5469@fx28.iad> |
| In reply to | #30145 |
On 11/27/20 9:58 AM, Rick C wrote: > How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two compartments when using a single compressor? > Same way your furnace can heat different parts of the house to different temperatures, you use zones. You allow the chiller coils in the freezer to be able to run at different timing then the coils in the refrigerator. This does require more complicated control systems then the simple loop with a diverter.
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-27 08:04 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <b1e41f15-486e-4f8b-8d90-d9e22b2721cen@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30146 |
On Friday, November 27, 2020 at 10:17:56 AM UTC-5, Richard Damon wrote: > On 11/27/20 9:58 AM, Rick C wrote: > > > How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two compartments when using a single compressor? > > > Same way your furnace can heat different parts of the house to > different temperatures, you use zones. You allow the chiller coils in > the freezer to be able to run at different timing then the coils in the > refrigerator. > > This does require more complicated control systems then the simple loop > with a diverter. I've never seen a fridge that bothers with that. They just direct airflow. Why add needless complexity and cost to a simple device that works well? So your refrigerator has one compressor, but two sets of coils and a valve to change the flow of coolant and two thermostats? Yeah, that's a lot of money when designing a consumer item. I just checked and my fridge is now running at 34°F (1°C) and the freezer at -3°F (-20°C). I must have had the air flow blocked in the freezer. It was really packed tight. That was likely preventing adequate airflow to the refrigerator part of the unit. I've eaten a lot of the stores now and the air flow is restored. I have my power monitor on the Tesla at the moment. Once it is done charging later today I'll drag the fridge out and measure the wattage it uses. -- Rick C. +-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging +-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-28 17:04 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <zavrhjmncnay.qkj1as0.pminews@nntp.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #30145 |
On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: <snip> > >How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two compartments when using a single compressor? I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ years old Bosch) did it too. There is no air connection between freeze and cool department. Both the old and new fridge both have a digital display where you set freeze and cool temperatures independently. They must have some valve or other control thing for it. In fact, some fridges have even different temparature zones inside the cooler department. >If you set your refrigerator to -3°C, don't things freeze? My fridge would sometimes freeze things in the bottom when the temperature was set below 40°F (5°C). Never, because cool and freeze are completely independent, even though they must share the same motor, at least on my model, a Liebherr CP4813. The energy differences between modern fridges can run in the hundreds of kWhs per year, according to a consumer test here; energy use was a selection criteria for us. Mat Nieuwenhoven
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| From | Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-28 09:54 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <rptvca$kvg$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #30150 |
On 11/28/2020 9:04 AM, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: > I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ > years old Bosch) did it too. There is no air connection between > freeze and cool department. Both the old and new fridge both have a > digital display where you set freeze and cool temperatures > independently. They must have some valve or other control thing for > it. In fact, some fridges have even different temparature zones > inside the cooler department. This is increasingly common, here, with "multiple compartment" (> 2) units. A separate evaporator in each compartment allows the temperature in each to be independently controlled. So, you can opt to have two freezer compartments, a refrigerator compartment and a "chiller" compartment. Or, some other combination (up to and including all refrigerator or freezer) Each compartment independently "calls for cooling", as needed. If any do so, the compressor is started and refrigerant gated through the applicable evaporator. Sadly, we've been "waved off" of many of the units we've looked at as too costly and short lifespan (based on industry insiders). I'd rather spend money for electricity and KNOW my 'frig is going to keep running than worry about it sh*tting the bed while full of foodstuffs! Then I'd be faced with needing to find a repair/replacement ASAP (and there is some opportunity cost, there)
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-28 09:05 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <6063c61e-aa61-429d-94fc-bec7f5209f41n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30150 |
On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 11:04:11 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: > On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: > > <snip> > > > >How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two compartments when using a single compressor? > I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ > years old Bosch) did it too. There is no air connection between > freeze and cool department. Both the old and new fridge both have a > digital display where you set freeze and cool temperatures > independently. They must have some valve or other control thing for > it. In fact, some fridges have even different temparature zones > inside the cooler department. Being able to set independent temperatures does not mean there are two coils with valves. It is much more likely to have a controlled damper to modulate the amount of cold air from the freezer entering the refrigerator. My refrigerator has a fan, but I can't say for sure where it blows, freezer only or freezer and refrigerator. > >If you set your refrigerator to -3°C, don't things freeze? My fridge would sometimes freeze things in the bottom when the temperature was set below 40°F (5°C). > Never, because cool and freeze are completely independent, even > though they must share the same motor, at least on my model, a > Liebherr CP4813. The energy differences between modern fridges can > run in the hundreds of kWhs per year, according to a consumer test > here; energy use was a selection criteria for us. Sorry, I can't follow your reasoning. If you set the refrigerator temperature to -3°C, it should freeze things. Do I misunderstand the Celsius scale? Or does your refrigerator not keep things at the set temperature? -- Rick C. ++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging ++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-29 17:30 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <zavrhjmncnay.qkkx680.pminews@nntp.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #30152 |
On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 09:05:12 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: >On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 11:04:11 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: >> On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: >> >> <snip> >> > >> >How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two compartments when using a single compressor? >> I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ >> years old Bosch) did it too. There is no air connection between >> freeze and cool department. Both the old and new fridge both have a >> digital display where you set freeze and cool temperatures >> independently. They must have some valve or other control thing for >> it. In fact, some fridges have even different temparature zones >> inside the cooler department. > >Being able to set independent temperatures does not mean there are two coils with valves. It is much more likely to have a controlled damper to modulate the amount of cold air from the freezer entering the refrigerator. My refrigerator has a fan, but I can't say for sure where it blows, freezer only or freezer and refrigerator. Like I wrote above, there is _no_ connection between freeze and cool compartments. Not on our old and not on our current fridge. Both are combined freeze/cool fridges with the 3-drawer freeze section at the bottom. The cooler section has its coil after the back wall of the compartment, you can feel it getting colder if it's running. I wonder too if a controlled air movement damper is not more expensive than two on-off valves for freeze/cool coils, plus less prone to error. >> >If you set your refrigerator to -3°C, don't things freeze? My fridge would sometimes freeze things in the bottom when the temperature was set below 40°F (5°C). >> Never, because cool and freeze are completely independent, even >> though they must share the same motor, at least on my model, a >> Liebherr CP4813. The energy differences between modern fridges can >> run in the hundreds of kWhs per year, according to a consumer test >> here; energy use was a selection criteria for us. > >Sorry, I can't follow your reasoning. If you set the refrigerator temperature to -3°C, it should freeze things. Do I misunderstand the Celsius scale? Or does your refrigerator not keep things at the set temperature? Ah, I missed the minus sign, sorry. Yes it would freeze up, if I could do that, but the fridge won't allow me. I never tried it on the old one (also digitally controlled), but the current one allows selection only from +1 to +9 C for the cooler compartment. The freeze section is adjustable from -26 to -16 C. Control seems to be accurate too. If I measure the white back wall of the cooler compartment with an infrared thermometer, it is within 0.1 C of the set 4 degrees centigrade. On white painted metal the measurement should be fairly accurate. Mat Nieuwenhoven
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-29 11:10 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <2c2d5f1b-29f1-45c2-8d6c-01e962b86bd6n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30165 |
On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 11:30:16 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: > On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 09:05:12 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: > > >On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 11:04:11 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: > >> On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: > >> > >> <snip> > >> > > >> >How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two compartments when using a single compressor? > >> I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ > >> years old Bosch) did it too. There is no air connection between > >> freeze and cool department. Both the old and new fridge both have a > >> digital display where you set freeze and cool temperatures > >> independently. They must have some valve or other control thing for > >> it. In fact, some fridges have even different temparature zones > >> inside the cooler department. > > > >Being able to set independent temperatures does not mean there are two coils with valves. It is much more likely to have a controlled damper to modulate the amount of cold air from the freezer entering the refrigerator. My refrigerator has a fan, but I can't say for sure where it blows, freezer only or freezer and refrigerator. > Like I wrote above, there is _no_ connection between freeze and cool > compartments. Not on our old and not on our current fridge. Both are > combined freeze/cool fridges with the 3-drawer freeze section at the > bottom. The cooler section has its coil after the back wall of the > compartment, you can feel it getting colder if it's running. I wonder > too if a controlled air movement damper is not more expensive than > two on-off valves for freeze/cool coils, plus less prone to error. > >> >If you set your refrigerator to -3°C, don't things freeze? My fridge would sometimes freeze things in the bottom when the temperature was set below 40°F (5°C). > >> Never, because cool and freeze are completely independent, even > >> though they must share the same motor, at least on my model, a > >> Liebherr CP4813. The energy differences between modern fridges can > >> run in the hundreds of kWhs per year, according to a consumer test > >> here; energy use was a selection criteria for us. > > > >Sorry, I can't follow your reasoning. If you set the refrigerator temperature to -3°C, it should freeze things. Do I misunderstand the Celsius scale? Or does your refrigerator not keep things at the set temperature? > Ah, I missed the minus sign, sorry. Yes it would freeze up, if I > could do that, but the fridge won't allow me. I never tried it on the > old one (also digitally controlled), but the current one allows > selection only from +1 to +9 C for the cooler compartment. The freeze > section is adjustable from -26 to -16 C. > > Control seems to be accurate too. If I measure the white back wall of > the cooler compartment with an infrared thermometer, it is within 0.1 > C of the set 4 degrees centigrade. On white painted metal the > measurement should be fairly accurate. The infrared thermometer you are using is likely ±3°C at best. You'll be luck to see ±2°C of consistency in temperatures around the inside of the fridge, so talking about that sort of accuracy is delving into fantasy. I would also point out that white is a poor color for emissivity and will give the worst result. Black gives a more accurate indication of it's own temperature, but the thermometer is calibrated for some value of emissivity and any other value gives additional error. The -3°C refrigerator temperature setting was from your post, so I'll let you figure that out. -- Rick C. ---++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging ---++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-30 08:19 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <zavrhjmncnay.qkm2c51.pminews@nntp.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #30168 |
On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 11:10:59 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: >On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 11:30:16 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: >> On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 09:05:12 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: >> >> >On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 11:04:11 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: >> >> On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: >> >> >> >> <snip> >> >> > >> >> >How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two compartments when using a single compressor? >> >> I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ >> >> years old Bosch) did it too. There is no air connection between >> >> freeze and cool department. Both the old and new fridge both have a >> >> digital display where you set freeze and cool temperatures >> >> independently. They must have some valve or other control thing for >> >> it. In fact, some fridges have even different temparature zones >> >> inside the cooler department. >> > >> >Being able to set independent temperatures does not mean there are two coils with valves. It is much more likely to have a controlled damper to modulate the amount of cold air from the freezer entering the refrigerator. My refrigerator has a fan, but I can't say for sure where it blows, freezer only or freezer and refrigerator. >> Like I wrote above, there is _no_ connection between freeze and cool >> compartments. Not on our old and not on our current fridge. Both are >> combined freeze/cool fridges with the 3-drawer freeze section at the >> bottom. The cooler section has its coil after the back wall of the >> compartment, you can feel it getting colder if it's running. I wonder >> too if a controlled air movement damper is not more expensive than >> two on-off valves for freeze/cool coils, plus less prone to error. >> >> >If you set your refrigerator to -3°C, don't things freeze? My fridge would sometimes freeze things in the bottom when the temperature was set below 40°F (5°C). >> >> Never, because cool and freeze are completely independent, even >> >> though they must share the same motor, at least on my model, a >> >> Liebherr CP4813. The energy differences between modern fridges can >> >> run in the hundreds of kWhs per year, according to a consumer test >> >> here; energy use was a selection criteria for us. >> > >> >Sorry, I can't follow your reasoning. If you set the refrigerator temperature to -3°C, it should freeze things. Do I misunderstand the Celsius scale? Or does your refrigerator not keep things at the set temperature? >> Ah, I missed the minus sign, sorry. Yes it would freeze up, if I >> could do that, but the fridge won't allow me. I never tried it on the >> old one (also digitally controlled), but the current one allows >> selection only from +1 to +9 C for the cooler compartment. The freeze >> section is adjustable from -26 to -16 C. >> >> Control seems to be accurate too. If I measure the white back wall of >> the cooler compartment with an infrared thermometer, it is within 0.1 >> C of the set 4 degrees centigrade. On white painted metal the >> measurement should be fairly accurate. > >The infrared thermometer you are using is likely ±3°C at best. You'll be luck to see ±2°C of consistency in temperatures around the inside of the fridge, so talking about that sort of accuracy is delving into fantasy. I would also point out that white is a poor color for emissivity and will give the worst result. Black gives a more accurate indication of it's own temperature, but the thermometer is calibrated for some value of emissivity and any other value gives additional error. You're right of course, the accuracy was unwarranted because of the unknown emissivity. The spec of the thermometer says +/- 1.5 % or +/- 1.5 % of the measured value (it goes up to 380 C). So in case it displays 4.0 C the accuracy is 0.06 C, and the single decimal is fully warranted. The emissivity is unknown, but I've measured multiple items with different colors on the same item, and it does not seem to vary much. The only significant deviation so far is on our central heating radiators where the thermostat valve is some kind of shiny metal: the radiator itself just behind the valve might read 61C, the valve itself through which the hot water enters the radiator reads 29C, and it is all metal. Mat Nieuwenhoven
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-11-30 07:46 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <dd651bed-5904-4c47-b516-aa52a74783ecn@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30173 |
On Monday, November 30, 2020 at 2:19:23 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: > On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 11:10:59 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: > > >On Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 11:30:16 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: > >> On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 09:05:12 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: > >> > >> >On Saturday, November 28, 2020 at 11:04:11 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: > >> >> On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 06:58:53 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: > >> >> > >> >> <snip> > >> >> > > >> >> >How does your refrigerator control the temperatures of the two compartments when using a single compressor? > >> >> I have not looked into it, but it does. The previous one (an 20+ > >> >> years old Bosch) did it too. There is no air connection between > >> >> freeze and cool department. Both the old and new fridge both have a > >> >> digital display where you set freeze and cool temperatures > >> >> independently. They must have some valve or other control thing for > >> >> it. In fact, some fridges have even different temparature zones > >> >> inside the cooler department. > >> > > >> >Being able to set independent temperatures does not mean there are two coils with valves. It is much more likely to have a controlled damper to modulate the amount of cold air from the freezer entering the refrigerator. My refrigerator has a fan, but I can't say for sure where it blows, freezer only or freezer and refrigerator. > >> Like I wrote above, there is _no_ connection between freeze and cool > >> compartments. Not on our old and not on our current fridge. Both are > >> combined freeze/cool fridges with the 3-drawer freeze section at the > >> bottom. The cooler section has its coil after the back wall of the > >> compartment, you can feel it getting colder if it's running. I wonder > >> too if a controlled air movement damper is not more expensive than > >> two on-off valves for freeze/cool coils, plus less prone to error. > >> >> >If you set your refrigerator to -3°C, don't things freeze? My fridge would sometimes freeze things in the bottom when the temperature was set below 40°F (5°C). > >> >> Never, because cool and freeze are completely independent, even > >> >> though they must share the same motor, at least on my model, a > >> >> Liebherr CP4813. The energy differences between modern fridges can > >> >> run in the hundreds of kWhs per year, according to a consumer test > >> >> here; energy use was a selection criteria for us. > >> > > >> >Sorry, I can't follow your reasoning. If you set the refrigerator temperature to -3°C, it should freeze things. Do I misunderstand the Celsius scale? Or does your refrigerator not keep things at the set temperature? > >> Ah, I missed the minus sign, sorry. Yes it would freeze up, if I > >> could do that, but the fridge won't allow me. I never tried it on the > >> old one (also digitally controlled), but the current one allows > >> selection only from +1 to +9 C for the cooler compartment. The freeze > >> section is adjustable from -26 to -16 C. > >> > >> Control seems to be accurate too. If I measure the white back wall of > >> the cooler compartment with an infrared thermometer, it is within 0.1 > >> C of the set 4 degrees centigrade. On white painted metal the > >> measurement should be fairly accurate. > > > >The infrared thermometer you are using is likely ±3°C at best. You'll be luck to see ±2°C of consistency in temperatures around the inside of the fridge, so talking about that sort of accuracy is delving into fantasy. I would also point out that white is a poor color for emissivity and will give the worst result. Black gives a more accurate indication of it's own temperature, but the thermometer is calibrated for some value of emissivity and any other value gives additional error. > You're right of course, the accuracy was unwarranted because of the > unknown emissivity. The spec of the thermometer says +/- 1.5 % or > +/- 1.5 % of the measured value (it goes up to 380 C). So in case it > displays 4.0 C the accuracy is 0.06 C, and the single decimal is > fully warranted. > The emissivity is unknown, but I've measured multiple items with > different colors on the same item, and it does not seem to vary much. > The only significant deviation so far is on our central heating > radiators where the thermostat valve is some kind of shiny metal: the > radiator itself just behind the valve might read 61C, the valve > itself through which the hot water enters the radiator reads 29C, and > it is all metal. You need to learn how to read specs. The first 1.5% applies to the full range I suspect and the total error is the sum of the two or the greater of the two. Stop pretending these devices are accurate. Try measuring a dozen different locations in the fridge. You will get a dozen different readings with a ±1°C range. That's just the variation and does not set the accuracy. -- Rick C. -+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | "Mat Nieuwenhoven" <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-06 17:55 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <zavrhjmncnay.qkxx1a0.pminews@nntp.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #30177 |
On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 07:46:30 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: <snip> >You need to learn how to read specs. The first 1.5% applies to the full range I suspect and the total error is the sum of the two or the greater of the two. No, it is 1.5% of the reading OR 1.5 C, whatever is greater. Incomplete spec, because they don't say if it is for C or F (I suspect C as it is an european device), Because it can do F and C, therefore in F 1.5% of reading would be more accurate. Below 0 C is it less accurate, 3% or degrees. >Stop pretending these devices are accurate. Try measuring a dozen different locations in the fridge. You will get a dozen different readings with a ±1°C range. That's just the variation and does not set the accuracy. Well, higher in the fridge is is somewhat warmer, as specified in the user's manual. Different packages inside the fridge give different readings (by several degrees), likeley due to differences in emissivity. I have started to measure the fridge's energy consumption today. While running, the fridge takes 55 to 66 W (it really varies) , I wonder if it has a multispeed compressor. Assuming 60 W average, then after some days, I should be able to determine how much % of the time the fridge is on. Mat Nieuwenhoven
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-06 15:04 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <5d124236-5686-4adf-a16c-7524a7482e59n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30180 |
On Sunday, December 6, 2020 at 11:56:06 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote: > On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 07:46:30 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: > > <snip> > >You need to learn how to read specs. The first 1.5% applies to the full range I suspect and the total error is the sum of the two or the greater of the two. > No, it is 1.5% of the reading OR 1.5 C, whatever is greater. > Incomplete spec, because they don't say if it is for C or F (I > suspect C as it is an european device), Because it can do F and C, > therefore in F 1.5% of reading would be more accurate. Below 0 C is > it less accurate, 3% or degrees. > >Stop pretending these devices are accurate. Try measuring a dozen different locations in the fridge. You will get a dozen different readings with a ±1°C range. That's just the variation and does not set the accuracy. > Well, higher in the fridge is is somewhat warmer, as specified in the > user's manual. Different packages inside the fridge give different > readings (by several degrees), likeley due to differences in > emissivity. > > I have started to measure the fridge's energy consumption today. > While running, the fridge takes 55 to 66 W (it really varies) , I > wonder if it has a multispeed compressor. Assuming 60 W average, then > after some days, I should be able to determine how much % of the time > the fridge is on. I put my fridge on a timer to not run when the power is expensive, 3 hrs, twice a day it is cut off. I measure about 1 or 2 degree rise in temperature, but only by looking in small spaces. Funny thing about emissivity, if you point your thermometer at a shiny box of frozen food or a shiny plastic bag the heat from the outside radiates inward and is reflected back into your thermometer, raising the reading significantly. So if I just take every temperature I see in the freezer, after sitting with the door closed for three hours, I will find up to 10 degree variations which is pure BS. It's the variation in emissivity and the room warmth reflecting back to the thermometer. The low readings can't be false however unless the fridge were actually a heater keeping the food from freezing while in an arctic environment. I turned my thermostat up in the fridge and also adjusted the flap away from the coldest setting. I think the flap was virtually closed cutting off effective cooling from the fridge and causing the motor to run constantly. I can see it now cycles and can even see the defrost cycle where it runs the heater and leaves the compressor off for a while. The power variation is from temperature differences. If the returning gas is warmer it takes more work to compress it. That reminds me, I need to clean the coils. -- Rick C. +--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging +--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | Mat Nieuwenhoven <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-03 11:03 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <rss8ak$1nil$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #30181 |
On Sun, 06 Dec 2020 15:04:45 -0800, Rick C wrote: > On Sunday, December 6, 2020 at 11:56:06 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven > wrote: >> On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 07:46:30 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: >> >> <snip> >> >You need to learn how to read specs. The first 1.5% applies to the >> >full range I suspect and the total error is the sum of the two or the >> >greater of the two. >> No, it is 1.5% of the reading OR 1.5 C, whatever is greater. Incomplete >> spec, because they don't say if it is for C or F (I suspect C as it is >> an european device), Because it can do F and C, therefore in F 1.5% of >> reading would be more accurate. Below 0 C is it less accurate, 3% or >> degrees. >> >Stop pretending these devices are accurate. Try measuring a dozen >> >different locations in the fridge. You will get a dozen different >> >readings with a ±1°C range. That's just the variation and does not set >> >the accuracy. >> Well, higher in the fridge is is somewhat warmer, as specified in the >> user's manual. Different packages inside the fridge give different >> readings (by several degrees), likeley due to differences in >> emissivity. >> >> I have started to measure the fridge's energy consumption today. While >> running, the fridge takes 55 to 66 W (it really varies) , I wonder if >> it has a multispeed compressor. Assuming 60 W average, then after some >> days, I should be able to determine how much % of the time the fridge >> is on. > > I put my fridge on a timer to not run when the power is expensive, 3 > hrs, twice a day it is cut off. I measure about 1 or 2 degree rise in > temperature, but only by looking in small spaces. > > Funny thing about emissivity, if you point your thermometer at a shiny > box of frozen food or a shiny plastic bag the heat from the outside > radiates inward and is reflected back into your thermometer, raising the > reading significantly. So if I just take every temperature I see in > the freezer, after sitting with the door closed for three hours, I will > find up to 10 degree variations which is pure BS. It's the variation in > emissivity and the room warmth reflecting back to the thermometer. The > low readings can't be false however unless the fridge were actually a > heater keeping the food from freezing while in an arctic environment. > > I turned my thermostat up in the fridge and also adjusted the flap away > from the coldest setting. I think the flap was virtually closed cutting > off effective cooling from the fridge and causing the motor to run > constantly. I can see it now cycles and can even see the defrost cycle > where it runs the heater and leaves the compressor off for a while. > > The power variation is from temperature differences. If the returning > gas is warmer it takes more work to compress it. That reminds me, I > need to clean the coils. Well, I've measured the fridge's energy use for 25 days. Extrapolated to a year it used 118 kWh, let's say 130 because in summer our kitchen is warmer. It ran 38% of the time. If I take freezer and cooler volume together (330 liter), then it comes out to 0.39 kWh per liter per year. Mat Nieuwenhoven
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| From | Brett <ggtgp@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-04 09:03 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <rsullj$2r6$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #30243 |
Mat Nieuwenhoven <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: > On Sun, 06 Dec 2020 15:04:45 -0800, Rick C wrote: > >> On Sunday, December 6, 2020 at 11:56:06 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven >> wrote: >>> On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 07:46:30 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: >>> >>> <snip> >>>> You need to learn how to read specs. The first 1.5% applies to the >>>> full range I suspect and the total error is the sum of the two or the >>>> greater of the two. >>> No, it is 1.5% of the reading OR 1.5 C, whatever is greater. Incomplete >>> spec, because they don't say if it is for C or F (I suspect C as it is >>> an european device), Because it can do F and C, therefore in F 1.5% of >>> reading would be more accurate. Below 0 C is it less accurate, 3% or >>> degrees. >>>> Stop pretending these devices are accurate. Try measuring a dozen >>>> different locations in the fridge. You will get a dozen different >>>> readings with a ±1°C range. That's just the variation and does not set >>>> the accuracy. >>> Well, higher in the fridge is is somewhat warmer, as specified in the >>> user's manual. Different packages inside the fridge give different >>> readings (by several degrees), likeley due to differences in >>> emissivity. >>> >>> I have started to measure the fridge's energy consumption today. While >>> running, the fridge takes 55 to 66 W (it really varies) , I wonder if >>> it has a multispeed compressor. Assuming 60 W average, then after some >>> days, I should be able to determine how much % of the time the fridge >>> is on. >> >> I put my fridge on a timer to not run when the power is expensive, 3 >> hrs, twice a day it is cut off. I measure about 1 or 2 degree rise in >> temperature, but only by looking in small spaces. >> >> Funny thing about emissivity, if you point your thermometer at a shiny >> box of frozen food or a shiny plastic bag the heat from the outside >> radiates inward and is reflected back into your thermometer, raising the >> reading significantly. So if I just take every temperature I see in >> the freezer, after sitting with the door closed for three hours, I will >> find up to 10 degree variations which is pure BS. It's the variation in >> emissivity and the room warmth reflecting back to the thermometer. The >> low readings can't be false however unless the fridge were actually a >> heater keeping the food from freezing while in an arctic environment. >> >> I turned my thermostat up in the fridge and also adjusted the flap away >> from the coldest setting. I think the flap was virtually closed cutting >> off effective cooling from the fridge and causing the motor to run >> constantly. I can see it now cycles and can even see the defrost cycle >> where it runs the heater and leaves the compressor off for a while. >> >> The power variation is from temperature differences. If the returning >> gas is warmer it takes more work to compress it. That reminds me, I >> need to clean the coils. > > Well, I've measured the fridge's energy use for 25 days. Extrapolated to > a year it used 118 kWh, let's say 130 because in summer our kitchen is > warmer. Times 11 cents a kWh in Texas that’s about 14 dollars a year if I have done the math right. Never going to be cost effective to replace. Can I assume no kids at home as that could multiply the result by four. > It ran 38% of the time. If I take freezer and cooler volume together (330 > liter), then it comes out to 0.39 kWh per liter per year. > > Mat Nieuwenhoven >
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-04 04:09 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <f60106cd-9582-4a5b-a87f-1007f838260dn@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30249 |
On Monday, January 4, 2021 at 4:03:54 AM UTC-5, Brett wrote: > Mat Nieuwenhoven <mni...@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: > > On Sun, 06 Dec 2020 15:04:45 -0800, Rick C wrote: > > > >> On Sunday, December 6, 2020 at 11:56:06 AM UTC-5, Mat Nieuwenhoven > >> wrote: > >>> On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 07:46:30 -0800 (PST), Rick C wrote: > >>> > >>> <snip> > >>>> You need to learn how to read specs. The first 1.5% applies to the > >>>> full range I suspect and the total error is the sum of the two or the > >>>> greater of the two. > >>> No, it is 1.5% of the reading OR 1.5 C, whatever is greater. Incomplete > >>> spec, because they don't say if it is for C or F (I suspect C as it is > >>> an european device), Because it can do F and C, therefore in F 1.5% of > >>> reading would be more accurate. Below 0 C is it less accurate, 3% or > >>> degrees. > >>>> Stop pretending these devices are accurate. Try measuring a dozen > >>>> different locations in the fridge. You will get a dozen different > >>>> readings with a ±1°C range. That's just the variation and does not set > >>>> the accuracy. > >>> Well, higher in the fridge is is somewhat warmer, as specified in the > >>> user's manual. Different packages inside the fridge give different > >>> readings (by several degrees), likeley due to differences in > >>> emissivity. > >>> > >>> I have started to measure the fridge's energy consumption today. While > >>> running, the fridge takes 55 to 66 W (it really varies) , I wonder if > >>> it has a multispeed compressor. Assuming 60 W average, then after some > >>> days, I should be able to determine how much % of the time the fridge > >>> is on. > >> > >> I put my fridge on a timer to not run when the power is expensive, 3 > >> hrs, twice a day it is cut off. I measure about 1 or 2 degree rise in > >> temperature, but only by looking in small spaces. > >> > >> Funny thing about emissivity, if you point your thermometer at a shiny > >> box of frozen food or a shiny plastic bag the heat from the outside > >> radiates inward and is reflected back into your thermometer, raising the > >> reading significantly. So if I just take every temperature I see in > >> the freezer, after sitting with the door closed for three hours, I will > >> find up to 10 degree variations which is pure BS. It's the variation in > >> emissivity and the room warmth reflecting back to the thermometer. The > >> low readings can't be false however unless the fridge were actually a > >> heater keeping the food from freezing while in an arctic environment. > >> > >> I turned my thermostat up in the fridge and also adjusted the flap away > >> from the coldest setting. I think the flap was virtually closed cutting > >> off effective cooling from the fridge and causing the motor to run > >> constantly. I can see it now cycles and can even see the defrost cycle > >> where it runs the heater and leaves the compressor off for a while. > >> > >> The power variation is from temperature differences. If the returning > >> gas is warmer it takes more work to compress it. That reminds me, I > >> need to clean the coils. > > > > Well, I've measured the fridge's energy use for 25 days. Extrapolated to > > a year it used 118 kWh, let's say 130 because in summer our kitchen is > > warmer. > Times 11 cents a kWh in Texas that’s about 14 dollars a year if I have done > the math right. Never going to be cost effective to replace. > > Can I assume no kids at home as that could multiply the result by four. > > It ran 38% of the time. If I take freezer and cooler volume together (330 > > liter), then it comes out to 0.39 kWh per liter per year. This is a very small refrigerator, approx 11 cu ft. But even so, this energy usage is very, very low, about 13.5 watts. When you open the door and the light bulb comes on the energy use quadruples. I believe he already said his unit has no defrost cycle, so that alone makes it very different from 99.9% of the units sold in the US. Even so, I find the numbers to be surprising. -- Rick C. ++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging ++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | Mat Nieuwenhoven <mnieuw@zap.a2000.nl> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-01-04 21:57 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <rt0305$12qh$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #30251 |
On Mon, 04 Jan 2021 04:09:06 -0800, Rick C wrote: > On Monday, January 4, 2021 at 4:03:54 AM UTC-5, Brett wrote: >> Mat Nieuwenhoven <mni...@zap.a2000.nl> wrote: >> > Well, I've measured the fridge's energy use for 25 days. Extrapolated >> > to a year it used 118 kWh, let's say 130 because in summer our >> > kitchen is warmer. >> Times 11 cents a kWh in Texas that’s about 14 dollars a year if I have >> done the math right. Never going to be cost effective to replace. >> >> Can I assume no kids at home as that could multiply the result by four. Indeed no kids at home normally. But the result doesn't get much higher even then. I saw a minor increase over the festive season when it was used much more.The cooler door bleeps if is it is open for longer than a short time (a minute or so). >> > It ran 38% of the time. If I take freezer and cooler volume together >> > (330 liter), then it comes out to 0.39 kWh per liter per year. > This is a very small refrigerator, approx 11 cu ft. But even so, this > energy usage is very, very low, about 13.5 watts. You mean on average over the year if it were running continuously? White- good equipment like a fridge or washing machine in the EU must be specified in kWh/year based on a prescribed use pattern. Our model is specified for 167 kWh/year. It was not even the most efficient in the catalog, there were other considerations too. It is this model without the no-frost: https://home.liebherr.com/en/deu/products/household-appliances/floor- mounted-appliances-for-households/freestanding-fridge-freezers/details/ cnp-4813_89392.html I guess for most households here this is upper middle class fridge/cooler with vertically stacked cool/freeze section. About 60 cm wide which is a standard here for kitchen cabinets. You can buy side-by-side freeze/ coolers, but they are much less efficient and not many people have the space for it. Those who want a large freezer frequently have a box-type (lid on top) freezer in the cellar of garden shed. Our kitchen is 250x250cm exactly, and I guess that is about normal for standard houses. But you don't really need much storage because the supermarkets are usually close (walking or bicycling distance). I guess if you buy things once a week for the whole week you'd need more. But if we have a three- course meal for 9 persons, indeed space is tight. > When you open the > door and the light bulb comes on the energy use quadruples. 3.6 W according to my power meter. The light is a bright LED at the top front shining downwards, which illuminates the cooling section very well. But even on older fridges we had the bulb was only 5W or so. > I believe > he already said his unit has no defrost cycle, so that alone makes it > very different from 99.9% of the units sold in the US. The cooling section doesn't need one, because it's minimum temperature is + 1 centigrade, and like I wrote before, there is no air connection between freezing and cooling sections. We could get almost the same model with no-frost in the freezer section, but it used like 50% more energy, and that's not worth it for us. There's not much ice accumulating there anyway. > Even so, I find the numbers to be surprising. Energy efficiency is very important here. Most people would pay 23 eurocent/kWh . In test of consumer organizations energy use is a major point for any product. Cheaper models are usually worse on energy use per liter. I don't think there are double-door models that rely on airflow from freezing to cooling section. Mat Nieuwenhoven
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