Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]
Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #12586 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Don Y <this@isnotme.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2013-07-21 02:47 -0700 |
| Last post | 2013-07-23 21:42 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 115 — 25 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.arch.embedded
Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 02:47 -0700
Re: Cutting panels John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> - 2013-07-21 08:05 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-07-21 10:38 -0400
Re: Cutting panels "Carl Ijames" <carl.ijames@nonono.verizon.net> - 2013-07-21 12:36 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:48 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:29 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:10 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:23 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 21:04 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 15:07 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:11 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:27 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 21:50 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:24 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:09 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 16:02 -0700
Re: Cutting panels hamilton <hamilton@nothere.com> - 2013-07-21 16:52 -0600
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 12:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2013-07-21 09:54 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:32 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:36 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:04 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:14 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:26 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:06 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:08 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Rich Webb <webb.ra@example.net> - 2013-07-21 19:42 -0400
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 07:51 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 05:57 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 14:46 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Lancaster <don@tinaja.com> - 2013-07-23 16:41 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 17:21 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:26 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 12:11 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-25 16:04 -0400
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 13:03 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:40 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?]/summary Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 15:18 -0700
Re: Cutting panels andrews@sdf.lonestar.org - 2013-07-21 12:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:17 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-21 19:45 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 17:07 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Peter Bennett <peterbb@somewhere.invalid> - 2013-07-21 16:57 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 20:58 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 21:02 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 09:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 12:15 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 16:17 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 18:52 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:00 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:09 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 10:03 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:59 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:54 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-24 13:09 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 15:51 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 09:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 11:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 12:06 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <panteltje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-26 19:44 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 22:21 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-27 08:12 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 13:42 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 18:50 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 22:49 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-27 00:53 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 10:16 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 23:52 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 17:36 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 09:22 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 12:31 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-28 13:48 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 14:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 16:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 17:39 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 19:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 11:15 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 16:30 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 17:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 21:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-30 12:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2013-07-21 21:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 00:39 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 01:39 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 19:09 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 20:10 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:07 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-22 18:33 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-22 13:44 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:00 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 10:09 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 11:45 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 13:46 +0100
Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-23 13:06 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:19 +0100
Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-24 08:05 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 10:07 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:26 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:18 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 11:38 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:32 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2013-07-23 21:37 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:16 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-24 10:37 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:27 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Gonadicus <gonadicus@no_spam.com> - 2013-07-23 12:46 +0800
Re: Cutting panels sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> - 2013-07-23 04:58 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:25 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:42 -0700
Page 3 of 6 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 Next page →
| From | Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-07-23 07:38 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: Cutting panels [solved?] |
| Message-ID | <b57is1F4ml1U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #12661 |
Jasen Betts wrote: > On 2013-07-21, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote: > >> Hey, can you elaborate on that Costco deal? I am always looking for a >> fast way to make nice-looking front panels. Do they offer some sort of >> thick-plastic printing? > > photocopiers will print on polycarbonate film, and presumably full-on > rigid lexan sheet stock if you've got one with a straight paper path. > Mine wouldn't do that. Thin film, ok, but it has to be able to roll around a tight radius. > If you print a mirror image and then back it with an opaque layer you > can face the clear side to the environment and protect the artwork, > > Else print on ordinary paper and run it through an ordinary laminator, > almost as good (as long as you keep it dry) and less technically > demanding. > I've done that before. It's ok, but not quite "dog and pony show" quality. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Don Y <this@isnotme.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-07-29 15:18 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: Cutting panels [solved?]/summary |
| Message-ID | <kt6pni$2e1$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #12599 |
Hi, Just a summary of my results, to date: On 7/21/2013 1:14 PM, Don Y wrote: > With the veneer approach, you could be *really* crude in how well you > cut the slots. And, "filing" would only be necessary to remove burrs, > etc. > > Yes, I like this idea! It's something that others could easily > reproduce and get "good" results -- all while avoiding the need > to locate some "service" to do the work for you! I tried using "card stock" printed in a Phaser (solid ink, very opaque/glossy results), laminated, then cut (for the "slots" for the connectors). Visually very good (though the lamination alters the finish perceptibly). And, easy to get a precise fit to the dimensions of the panel and openings. But, the card stock "frays" along the edges that have been cut for the connector openings. Over time, the appearance will degrade as these edges see most of the (ab)use that the panel experiences (as cables are plugged/unplugged). I then tried printing the imagery and *pre*cutting the openings before lamination. This allows the plastic laminate to be in place as the edge of the opening instead of the "compressed fiber" card stock. Once laminated, the openings are cut through the lamination. The problem with this approach is you need to leave a margin of plastic to "self-adhere" causing the resulting opening to be smaller than desired. I.e., you have to cut the opening in the card stock to be *larger* than necessary so you leave room for the lamination to come together *inside* that opening. This means your "overlay" has a transparent ring around each opening cut through it. (and, means the legends are that much further from the actual openings!) The cheap remedy is to paint the backside of the lamination with a solid color that mimics the basic color of the printed overlay (e.g., I printed a black overlay and then used a black marker pen to color the clear plastic laminate in this area to be equally black. This would obviously have varying degrees of success with other colors... I then tried using heavy "photo paper" (I have a large selection of papers, here). Again, printing the imagery in the Phaser (so I didn't change too many variables in one step), laminating and then cutting windows. (i.e., just like the first attempt but using different "paper"). With a bit of double-sided celo tape to adhere it to the metal panel, this seems like it will do the trick. Sure, it won't stand up to lots of abuse but this isn't the sort of thing that will *see* lots of abuse. Wire it and forget it. Other ideas I might explore are printing on thin plastic (though I'll see if I can find a service bureau willing to do it!); cutting "tabs" on the inside of the slots in the laminate instead of cutting clean openings (so that those tabs could then be folded normal to the page to cling to the inside edge of the panel hole -- the small gap between the metal plate and the connectors protruding through it). I may also try a sheet of wood veneer as this would be the utmost in "swank". Currently, I am exploring a choice for appropriate graphics to use as icons. I think if the panel had been mounted at eye level (even if you were squatting at the time), the icons wouldn't be as critical. But, located inches above the floor means there is a lot more reliance on overall shape and (ick!) color (white snowman for "freezer", orange sun for "weather", red thermometer for "temperature", etc.). Maybe I can coerce some of my artist friends to lend a hand (though small and stylized is probably not something they are accustomed to dealing with!) --don
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | andrews@sdf.lonestar.org |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-07-21 12:45 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <be519328-a676-427f-a1f5-c32946ba0473@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #12586 |
On Sunday, July 21, 2013 10:47:35 AM UTC+1, Don Y wrote: > My problem is cutting these long slots in some material > (e.g., aluminum) in a manner that doesn't look amateurish. > [I suspect these slots are punched in commercial offerings > so they are nice and square, etc.] > > You *know* aluminum with a file is going to look like > "aluminum with a file" :< I just can't imagine keeping > nice hard, straight edges going that route! Personally that would be my preferred route. My experience with trying to be "clever" with one-off fabrication is that it inevitably ends up being more trouble than doing the job the proper way to start with. The trick to something like that is roughing out the piece quickly and easily. The small carborundum cutting/grinding discs that fit in a PCB drill save a hell of a lot of time. A scroll saw with a fine blade saves even more. If you only need to pull out the files to shave off the last fraction of a millimetre the job takes a little time but it's not hard and the results can be quite satisfactory. In your case keystone jecks have mounting lugs on the front panel that will visually break up the straight lines in any event - I doubt you'd really notice any minor imperfections. OTOH I really would prefer brass to aluminium even if it does cost substantially more - aluminium always seems a lot less forgiving, in that one accidental light contact with a tool creates a ding you can't polish out. Since you are cutting long thin slots in sheet you may well want the additional strength too. > Is there some other trick I can explore? Anything *strong* that > can be "molded"/poured? (the panels have to support a fair bit > of force as things are plugged/unplugged "carelessly") Two possibilities come to mind. The first would be photo-etching, as for PCBs but on metal sheet. Etching from both sides you can cut through moderate thicknesses - perhaps say 1.5mm. I'd suggest a grid pattern of holes (one for each connector) as opposed to slots in thin material - it's no extra work and will strengthen things up quite nicely. You can also add surface detail by etching those only from one side, so for example you can have labels etched in the front and fold lines in the back. Again I'd prefer brass for strength at a given thickness. You can certainly etch aluminium but you need weak etchant - either well diluted or almost spent. With "good" etchant things are rather too fast and uncontrolled, and you get uneven results because of it. On a similiar vein would be a CNC mill of the style you sometimes see advertised for PCB manufacture. In the long term those would probably be the best bet but of course the capital cost is rather high for a one-off project. I've no experience of those for this kind of thing but I must admit I've been tempted to blow £1000 on one. -- Andrew Smallshaw andrews@sdf.lonestar.org
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Don Y <this@isnotme.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-07-22 19:17 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <kskp4e$ffr$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #12598 |
Hi Andrew,
On 7/21/2013 12:45 PM, andrews@sdf.lonestar.org wrote:
> On Sunday, July 21, 2013 10:47:35 AM UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
>> My problem is cutting these long slots in some material
>> (e.g., aluminum) in a manner that doesn't look amateurish.
>> [I suspect these slots are punched in commercial offerings
>> so they are nice and square, etc.]
>>
>> You *know* aluminum with a file is going to look like
>> "aluminum with a file" :< I just can't imagine keeping
>> nice hard, straight edges going that route!
>
> Personally that would be my preferred route. My experience with
> trying to be "clever" with one-off fabrication is that it inevitably
> ends up being more trouble than doing the job the proper way to
> start with.
My experience filing thick stock is that it is too hard to
get the edges straight in all three dimensions! I.e., the
file has to remain normal to the front surface at all times.
If you tilt it, the front edge gets "rounded" in one or
more spots -- which makes the slot look "not straight".
(i.e., even deburring becomes something that you can't do casually)
If you file too far in one spot, then there is no way to build
that area back up. And, this is right up front for all to see.
> The trick to something like that is roughing out the piece quickly
> and easily. The small carborundum cutting/grinding discs that fit
> in a PCB drill save a hell of a lot of time. A scroll saw with a
> fine blade saves even more. If you only need to pull out the files
> to shave off the last fraction of a millimetre the job takes a
> little time but it's not hard and the results can be quite
> satisfactory.
>
> In your case keystone jecks have mounting lugs on the front panel
> that will visually break up the straight lines in any event - I
> doubt you'd really notice any minor imperfections.
No. The jacks tend to exist in clusters. Either single jacks
soldered onto a PCB assembly or groups of 4/6/8/12. I have one
panel that has a custom "snap in" module of 6 connectors -- but
it requires a really weird shaped hole:
+---+ +---+
+--+ +----------------------------------+ +--+
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
+-+ +--------------------------------+ +-+
+-----+ +-----+
(not to scale)
> OTOH I really would prefer brass to aluminium even if it does cost
> substantially more - aluminium always seems a lot less forgiving,
> in that one accidental light contact with a tool creates a ding you
> can't polish out. Since you are cutting long thin slots in sheet
> you may well want the additional strength too.
But, if you can *cover* the surface, then all mistakes are
forgiven! :>
>> Is there some other trick I can explore? Anything *strong* that
>> can be "molded"/poured? (the panels have to support a fair bit
>> of force as things are plugged/unplugged "carelessly")
>
> Two possibilities come to mind. The first would be photo-etching,
> as for PCBs but on metal sheet. Etching from both sides you can
> cut through moderate thicknesses - perhaps say 1.5mm. I'd suggest
> a grid pattern of holes (one for each connector) as opposed to
> slots in thin material - it's no extra work and will strengthen
> things up quite nicely. You can also add surface detail by etching
> those only from one side, so for example you can have labels etched
> in the front and fold lines in the back.
I had thought of having a *thick* "board" fabbed out of FR4 or
whatever - hoping the PCB house could do the cutouts in that
board as a matter of course. But, that started to look
pricey. And, for other people to try to do the same it would
require too much technical expertice on their part.
> Again I'd prefer brass for strength at a given thickness. You can
> certainly etch aluminium but you need weak etchant - either well
> diluted or almost spent. With "good" etchant things are rather too
> fast and uncontrolled, and you get uneven results because of it.
>
> On a similiar vein would be a CNC mill of the style you sometimes
> see advertised for PCB manufacture. In the long term those would
> probably be the best bet but of course the capital cost is rather
> high for a one-off project. I've no experience of those for this
> kind of thing but I must admit I've been tempted to blow £1000 on
> one.
I think I am going to try a *thick* piece of lexan (or some other
plastic) as an alternative technique. This should be relatively easy
to cut, readily available (local hardware store) and, with the
overlay approach, very tolerant of imperfections. I can pull
the PCB connector assemblies off of one of the spare panels and
*reposition* them so there is more lexan available to support
each successive row of connectors. I can accommodate the increased
thickness of the lexan (over that of the existing aluminum panel)
by simply shortening the standoffs by which it mounts *to* the
panel!
At the very least, I will be able to comment, first-hand, as to the
(un?)suitability of that approach!
(sigh) Tomorrow will involve lots of "running around" <frown>
Hopefully it won't be *too* hot/humid! (Gack! Maybe I will
have to get up *early*... before NOON!! :-/ )
--don
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-07-21 19:45 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <3ksou89mqn88v4o9s9st04hh31os3tdp87@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #12586 |
On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 02:47:35 -0700, the renowned Don Y <this@isnotme.com> wrote: >Hi, > >I need to fabricate a "patch panel" for a network >distribution point. Most COTS panels are fabricated >in multiples of 12 or 24. > >E.g., 1x12, 1x24 (as 12+12), 4x24, etc. > >Graphically, something like: > >1x12 XXXXXXXXXXXX > >1x24 XXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX > >4x24 XXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX > >Each 'X' being an 8P8C RJ45S connector. > >Typically, these "connector assemblies" are fastened >to the rear of an aluminum plate while the connectors >themselves protrude through holes in that plate >(actually, since the connectors typically abut each other, >the holes are really long *slots*) > >[Sorry if all this is obvious -- if you've seen one such >panel, you'd understand what I mean] > >In my particular case (1-off), I need to fabricate two >"3x12" panels: > >XXXXXXXXXXXX >XXXXXXXXXXXX >XXXXXXXXXXXX > >My problem is cutting these long slots in some material >(e.g., aluminum) in a manner that doesn't look amateurish. >[I suspect these slots are punched in commercial offerings >so they are nice and square, etc.] > >You *know* aluminum with a file is going to look like >"aluminum with a file" :< I just can't imagine keeping >nice hard, straight edges going that route! > >So, I'm exploring other fabrication options. E.g., perhaps >replace the aluminum with lexan? (though I'm not sure that >will be any easier to machine -- "hot knife"?) > >[I have a friend with several wire EDM's but can't bring myself >to ask for that big of a favor! :-/ ] > >Currently, I figure the easiest solution is to find a couple of >4x24 panels and cut them each in "half" (more like 55/45%] >discarding the undersized "halves". > >Is there some other trick I can explore? Anything *strong* that >can be "molded"/poured? (the panels have to support a fair bit >of force as things are plugged/unplugged "carelessly") > >Thanks! >--don Hi, Don:- Protocase does this sort of thing at a fairly reasonable price- they'll put markings on too. I think frontpanelexpress.com as well, but never tried them. They use CNC punching so you get almost smooth edges (a bit of a burr where the successive punch hits overlap, which could be smoothed off with a file, but is usually unnecessary). You could also make a relatively crappy panel with a scroll saw and file (lots of light, magnifier lamp or safety glasses up close, and clear the chips often), and cover it with a (eg. plastic) bezel that is thin enough to cut with an Xacto(tm) knife. I assume you're using something like 3mm hard Al so hand punching or pneumatic nibbling would be a bear. Oh, and use appropriate file sizes and the type with no teeth on the sides so as to get sharp corners. A skilled person can do wonders with a file. ;-) Supposedly one 'hiring' test for machinists was to make a square peg and square hole with nothing more than a file and a hacksaw. Had to fit within a thou or two to pass. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Don Y <this@isnotme.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-07-21 17:07 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ksht44$3pl$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #12614 |
Hi Spehro! On 7/21/2013 4:45 PM, Spehro Pefhany wrote: > Hi, Don:- > > Protocase does this sort of thing at a fairly reasonable price- > they'll put markings on too. I think frontpanelexpress.com as well, > but never tried them. They use CNC punching so you get almost smooth > edges (a bit of a burr where the successive punch hits overlap, which > could be smoothed off with a file, but is usually unnecessary). Ah, so they sort of tackle it like an oversized "nibbler"? > You could also make a relatively crappy panel with a scroll saw and > file (lots of light, magnifier lamp or safety glasses up close, and > clear the chips often), and cover it with a (eg. plastic) bezel that > is thin enough to cut with an Xacto(tm) knife. Yes. I think this is the right approach. Separate the cosmetic from the structural/functional. In my case, I can take a pair of panels and cut each slightly beyond the halfway point. E.g., given something LIKE: <http://www.genesistems.com/office/pics/PatchPanel.JPG> imagine cutting vertically, halfway between the "13" and "14" markers. So, you end up with as much "panel" extending to the right of the 12th (and 36th and 60th) connectors as you do to the left of the *1st* connector. This acts as an "ear" with which the panel can be mounted to <whatever>. [You must cut *outside* the "black dots" that mark the locations of the studs/standoffs/bosses onto which the PCB *behind* the panel is fastened. And, still leave enough material to provide a mounting surface] But, cutting at the 13-14 point leaves you with a real mess! I.e., the right edge of this new panel now has these big cutouts into it (for connectors #13, #37, #61, #85). If, however, you can apply some thin sheet of plastic (0.062") over the whole thing, it *appears* to be a much finer product. [The connectors can be coaxed into protruding further through the panel -- to align with the outer surface of this plastic overlay -- by trimming down the standoffs on the rear of the panel] > I assume you're using > something like 3mm hard Al so hand punching or pneumatic nibbling > would be a bear. Exactly. Trying to "machine" it turns it into a project of its own! (sort of like making your own spark plugs *before* you start on that tune-up!) > Oh, and use appropriate file sizes and the type with > no teeth on the sides so as to get sharp corners. A skilled person can > do wonders with a file. ;-) Supposedly one 'hiring' test for > machinists was to make a square peg and square hole with nothing more > than a file and a hacksaw. Had to fit within a thou or two to pass. I'd rather come up with a solution that lets more folks achieve "acceptable" results than require people to expend a lot of effort in something as "unimportant" (?) as a "device to hold connectors". I think the more you can do to cause "good" results encourages people to undertake projects that by which they might otherwise be intimidated. E.g., the "Photoshop overlay" lets folks feel like they've done something completely unique -- without having to understand some other (more important!) detail... This also lets folks adapt the solution to their particular needs and the materials that they have available to them. E.g., I also have a bunch of 12-port panels intended for vertical orientation. Rotate them 90 degrees and slap something on top and no one knows that the *obscured* legend is now "sideways". Keep cool! Regards to wife. --don
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Peter Bennett <peterbb@somewhere.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-07-21 16:57 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <b6tou8dsaelkbkngodta8rf46pvf9a11o7@news.supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #12586 |
On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 02:47:35 -0700, Don Y <this@isnotme.com> wrote: >Hi, > >I need to fabricate a "patch panel" for a network >distribution point. Most COTS panels are fabricated >in multiples of 12 or 24. > >E.g., 1x12, 1x24 (as 12+12), 4x24, etc. > >Graphically, something like: > >1x12 XXXXXXXXXXXX > >1x24 XXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX > >4x24 XXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX > >Each 'X' being an 8P8C RJ45S connector. > >Typically, these "connector assemblies" are fastened >to the rear of an aluminum plate while the connectors >themselves protrude through holes in that plate >(actually, since the connectors typically abut each other, >the holes are really long *slots*) <snippage> Try Front Panel Express (http://www.frontpanelexpress.com/) -- Peter Bennett, VE7CEI Vancouver BC peterbb (at) telus.net Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Don Y <this@isnotme.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-07-21 20:58 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ksiakp$vds$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #12616 |
Hi Peter,
On 7/21/2013 4:57 PM, Peter Bennett wrote:
> Try Front Panel Express (http://www.frontpanelexpress.com/)
I *crudely* threw together a minimalist panel design just
to get an idea as to what their pricing was likely to be.
I.e., I just set out to reproduce the existing panel -- trimmed
down to 3x12 instead of 4x(12+12). Recall I will need two
that are that size...
This results in a panel 5.25 x 10.5 x 0.125. I chose black
anodized aluminum as it seemed to be close to the cheapest
option ("natural" would require painting)
The panel with three 7.5 x 0.625 slots was $43.
Adding the 72 countersunk holes that allow the PCB's
located behind the panel to be attached to the panel
increased this to $72.
Adding 6 countersunk mounting holes to mount the panel
to <whatever> increased this to $96 (OK, maybe I could
omit two of those holes... perhaps this saves $5-10?).
Lettering the 36 connector positions with simple numeric
designators (i.e., 1-36) brings the price up to $118.
[Perhaps there are cheaper options that I didn't explore?]
Repeat for the second set of 36 means we're in the $230+
ballpark. For essentially a blank sheet of aluminum with
a few holes in it (surely no descriptive legend... that
would have to be written on a sheet of paper taped to the
wall by the panel? :> )
I can't imagine many folks going this route. Esp when you see
how many PC's have replaced/added optical drives that don't
bother to "match" the original color scheme of the machine! :>
--don
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Don Y <this@isnotme.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-07-21 21:02 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ksiat2$dv$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #12622 |
On 7/21/2013 8:58 PM, Don Y wrote: > The panel with three 7.5 x 0.625 slots was $43. > > Adding the 72 countersunk holes that allow the PCB's Grrr... typo. sb "24" holes (8 for each group of 12 connectors); $72 for the new price. > located behind the panel to be attached to the panel > increased this to $72.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-07-22 09:20 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <b554dsFj3euU2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #12622 |
Don Y wrote:
> Hi Peter,
>
> On 7/21/2013 4:57 PM, Peter Bennett wrote:
>
>> Try Front Panel Express (http://www.frontpanelexpress.com/)
>
> I *crudely* threw together a minimalist panel design just
> to get an idea as to what their pricing was likely to be.
> I.e., I just set out to reproduce the existing panel -- trimmed
> down to 3x12 instead of 4x(12+12). Recall I will need two
> that are that size...
>
> This results in a panel 5.25 x 10.5 x 0.125. I chose black
> anodized aluminum as it seemed to be close to the cheapest
> option ("natural" would require painting)
>
> The panel with three 7.5 x 0.625 slots was $43.
>
> Adding the 72 countersunk holes that allow the PCB's
> located behind the panel to be attached to the panel
> increased this to $72.
>
> Adding 6 countersunk mounting holes to mount the panel
> to <whatever> increased this to $96 (OK, maybe I could
> omit two of those holes... perhaps this saves $5-10?).
>
> Lettering the 36 connector positions with simple numeric
> designators (i.e., 1-36) brings the price up to $118.
>
> [Perhaps there are cheaper options that I didn't explore?]
>
> Repeat for the second set of 36 means we're in the $230+
> ballpark. For essentially a blank sheet of aluminum with
> a few holes in it (surely no descriptive legend... that
> would have to be written on a sheet of paper taped to the
> wall by the panel? :> )
>
> I can't imagine many folks going this route. Esp when you see
> how many PC's have replaced/added optical drives that don't
> bother to "match" the original color scheme of the machine! :>
>
For a professional-looking panel that ain't bad at all. Just think about
what your own time is worth per hour, and then you still need to buy the
stock somewhere. Which probably means another hour just for the drive
into town, plus 2-3 gallons of gas at $4 a pop.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Don Y <this@isnotme.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-07-22 12:15 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ksk0ck$je7$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #12634 |
Hi Joerg, On 7/22/2013 9:20 AM, Joerg wrote: > Don Y wrote: >> The panel with three 7.5 x 0.625 slots was $43. >> >> Adding the 72 countersunk holes that allow the PCB's >> located behind the panel to be attached to the panel >> increased this to $72. >> >> Adding 6 countersunk mounting holes to mount the panel >> to <whatever> increased this to $96 (OK, maybe I could >> omit two of those holes... perhaps this saves $5-10?). >> >> Lettering the 36 connector positions with simple numeric >> designators (i.e., 1-36) brings the price up to $118. >> >> Repeat for the second set of 36 means we're in the $230+ >> ballpark. For essentially a blank sheet of aluminum with >> a few holes in it (surely no descriptive legend... that >> would have to be written on a sheet of paper taped to the >> wall by the panel? :> ) >> >> I can't imagine many folks going this route. Esp when you see >> how many PC's have replaced/added optical drives that don't >> bother to "match" the original color scheme of the machine! :> > > For a professional-looking panel that ain't bad at all. How many folks, realistically, do you think would drop that sort of money on a "piece of metal"? You can buy 3 or 4 quality security cameras for that price. Or, several of the little satellite processors that I use. I.e., things that give you functionality ... not just cosmetic. As I said elsewhere, think of how many folks with "black" color scheme PC's have added/replaced CD/DVD drives and used *white* ones... because the *black* ones weren't on sale? Or, a brandX keyboard on a brandY computer? Or, who label things with pen/pencil instead of a real "labeler" (or, don't bother to label at all!! :> ) And, that's just a "generic" panel. I.e., *exactly* what I already HAVE... all it's buying me is "cut it in half" and don't make it *look* like it has been cut in half! And, it still doesn't really legend the connections (other than numbering them). E.g., with a graphic overlay, I can put pictures (icons) of cameras with "NNW", "NNE", "SSW", "SSE", etc. to identify the various security camera connections; icons of speakers with "N Kit" (kitchen), "S Kit", "NW Fam", "SE Fam", "SW Fam", etc. to identify each of the network speaker connections; little "antenna beacon" icons legended to identify the connections associated with the beacons; icons of "CRTs" legended to identify the connectors associated with the various control panels; a bell to mark the connector for the alarm system; a big "drip" for the irrigation system; etc. (I have mixed feelings about icons. But, you could also arrange the connectors in *groups* and use the space below each group to identify the group -- "Security Cameras" -- with shorter indications to further qualify each individual connector: NNW, NNE, SSW, etc.) Shirley, trying to do anything like this on that "custom" panel from fabricator is going to be outrageously expensive (and, if it is engraved, probably pretty unusable, visually). And, if you change some wiring or add some new connections, you just print a new overlay! Also, if you've screwed up *measuring* the locations of the various mounting studs, etc. *required* to make the custom panel usable, you don't learn $100/200 later! Screw up a graphic overlay and you're out $2. It doesn't *care* where the studs are located because the studs are already present on the panel *beneath* the overlay! > Just think about > what your own time is worth per hour, and then you still need to buy the > stock somewhere. It's called a photograph. You buy them at Walgreens, Target, Costco, Walmart, etc. With the custom panel, you still are spending time. And, waiting days/weeks to see if you've screwed up. > Which probably means another hour just for the drive > into town, plus 2-3 gallons of gas at $4 a pop. Some of us have indoor plumbing, Joerg (i.e., we don't live 35+ miles from <wherever>) :> Even a thin sheet of rigid plastic can be purchased from any of the local craft stores. Remember, it doesn't have to *do* anything -- just cover some holes that we want to pretend don't exist and "support" a photograph. I think the graphic overlay would appeal to the sort of person who *isn't* going to just settle for "using an equipment rack". (I know several folks who *will* go the equipment rack route!) It's a very low bar to cross -- low cost of admission. And, very low cost for failure (print paper copies until you are sure all is correct). And, lets them point to something that is exclusively *their* creation -- since so much else *won't* be! And, hey, if he wanted to spend extra money on a fancy piece of metal, there's nothing to stop him! He can even machine it out of *platinum* if he wants! :> (chances are, that sort of sod would not be doing *anything* himself so I won't worry about him!) --don
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-07-22 16:17 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <b55sruFoba5U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #12637 |
Don Y wrote: > Hi Joerg, > > On 7/22/2013 9:20 AM, Joerg wrote: >> Don Y wrote: > >>> The panel with three 7.5 x 0.625 slots was $43. >>> >>> Adding the 72 countersunk holes that allow the PCB's >>> located behind the panel to be attached to the panel >>> increased this to $72. >>> >>> Adding 6 countersunk mounting holes to mount the panel >>> to <whatever> increased this to $96 (OK, maybe I could >>> omit two of those holes... perhaps this saves $5-10?). >>> >>> Lettering the 36 connector positions with simple numeric >>> designators (i.e., 1-36) brings the price up to $118. >>> >>> Repeat for the second set of 36 means we're in the $230+ >>> ballpark. For essentially a blank sheet of aluminum with >>> a few holes in it (surely no descriptive legend... that >>> would have to be written on a sheet of paper taped to the >>> wall by the panel? :> ) >>> >>> I can't imagine many folks going this route. Esp when you see >>> how many PC's have replaced/added optical drives that don't >>> bother to "match" the original color scheme of the machine! :> >> >> For a professional-looking panel that ain't bad at all. > > How many folks, realistically, do you think would drop that sort > of money on a "piece of metal"? You can buy 3 or 4 quality > security cameras for that price. Or, several of the little > satellite processors that I use. I.e., things that give you > functionality ... not just cosmetic. > Hobbyists won't, of course. But I can see myraid uses in the professional world. For example, when you present an idea to venture capitalists (just did that recently) there will often be demo hardware you have built. A professional front panel versus a "duck tape and Sharpie" approach can make all the difference. Well worth $100. > As I said elsewhere, think of how many folks with "black" color > scheme PC's have added/replaced CD/DVD drives and used *white* > ones... because the *black* ones weren't on sale? Or, a brandX > keyboard on a brandY computer? Or, who label things with > pen/pencil instead of a real "labeler" (or, don't bother to label > at all!! :> ) > > And, that's just a "generic" panel. I.e., *exactly* what I already > HAVE... all it's buying me is "cut it in half" and don't make it > *look* like it has been cut in half! And, it still doesn't really > legend the connections (other than numbering them). > > E.g., with a graphic overlay, I can put pictures (icons) of cameras > with "NNW", "NNE", "SSW", "SSE", etc. to identify the various security > camera connections; icons of speakers with "N Kit" (kitchen), "S Kit", > "NW Fam", "SE Fam", "SW Fam", etc. to identify each of the network > speaker connections; little "antenna beacon" icons legended to identify > the connections associated with the beacons; icons of "CRTs" legended > to identify the connectors associated with the various control panels; > a bell to mark the connector for the alarm system; a big "drip" for > the irrigation system; etc. (I have mixed feelings about icons. But, > you could also arrange the connectors in *groups* and use the space > below each group to identify the group -- "Security Cameras" -- with > shorter indications to further qualify each individual connector: NNW, > NNE, SSW, etc.) > Man, you guys must have a full-blown NSA setup going there :-) > Shirley, trying to do anything like this on that "custom" panel > from fabricator is going to be outrageously expensive (and, if it > is engraved, probably pretty unusable, visually). > > And, if you change some wiring or add some new connections, you just > print a new overlay! > Sure, if you need flexibility you can't have things engraved. In that case it is better to have slots for paper strip, like the quick-dial numbers on a fax machine. > Also, if you've screwed up *measuring* the locations of the various > mounting studs, etc. *required* to make the custom panel usable, you > don't learn $100/200 later! Screw up a graphic overlay and you're > out $2. It doesn't *care* where the studs are located because the > studs are already present on the panel *beneath* the overlay! > You plan to screw the panels straight onto the studs? That sure is a true minimalist approach. >> Just think about >> what your own time is worth per hour, and then you still need to buy the >> stock somewhere. > > It's called a photograph. You buy them at Walgreens, Target, Costco, > Walmart, etc. > Yeah, but those photos don't last. > With the custom panel, you still are spending time. And, waiting > days/weeks to see if you've screwed up. > >> Which probably means another hour just for the drive >> into town, plus 2-3 gallons of gas at $4 a pop. > > Some of us have indoor plumbing, Joerg (i.e., we don't live 35+ > miles from <wherever>) :> Even a thin sheet of rigid plastic can > be purchased from any of the local craft stores. Remember, it > doesn't have to *do* anything -- just cover some holes that we want > to pretend don't exist and "support" a photograph. > Ain't no crafts store in this here town. But we can get saddles, boots, spurs, and glow plugs for the John Deere. > I think the graphic overlay would appeal to the sort of person > who *isn't* going to just settle for "using an equipment rack". > (I know several folks who *will* go the equipment rack route!) > It's a very low bar to cross -- low cost of admission. And, > very low cost for failure (print paper copies until you are > sure all is correct). And, lets them point to something that > is exclusively *their* creation -- since so much else *won't* be! > > And, hey, if he wanted to spend extra money on a fancy piece of > metal, there's nothing to stop him! He can even machine it out of > *platinum* if he wants! :> (chances are, that sort of sod would > not be doing *anything* himself so I won't worry about him!) > For hobby or residential use it can be ok. But not really in the pro world, like industrial of when looking for venture funding. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Don Y <this@isnotme.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-07-22 18:52 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ksknl5$c7c$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #12641 |
Hi Joerg,
On 7/22/2013 4:17 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> Repeat for the second set of 36 means we're in the $230+
>>>> ballpark. For essentially a blank sheet of aluminum with
>>>> a few holes in it (surely no descriptive legend... that
>>>> would have to be written on a sheet of paper taped to the
>>>> wall by the panel? :> )
>>>>
>>>> I can't imagine many folks going this route. Esp when you see
>>>> how many PC's have replaced/added optical drives that don't
>>>> bother to "match" the original color scheme of the machine! :>
>>>
>>> For a professional-looking panel that ain't bad at all.
>>
>> How many folks, realistically, do you think would drop that sort
>> of money on a "piece of metal"? You can buy 3 or 4 quality
>> security cameras for that price. Or, several of the little
>> satellite processors that I use. I.e., things that give you
>> functionality ... not just cosmetic.
>
> Hobbyists won't, of course. But I can see myraid uses in the
> professional world. For example, when you present an idea to venture
> capitalists (just did that recently) there will often be demo hardware
> you have built. A professional front panel versus a "duck tape and
> Sharpie" approach can make all the difference. Well worth $100.
Ah, sorry. We're speaking under different assumptions. :<
*I'm* talking about someone trying to reproduce my system
and facing the same sorts of challenges: a variable number of
"connections"; servicing a variety of *different* purposes;
with an *individual's* budget; etc.
E.g., patch panels make sense fabricated the way they are when
they are being used to connect a bunch of "computers" together.
You probably already *have* several equipment racks for your
network switches, UPS, servers, patch panels, etc. This is where
the patch panel "belongs".
And, "1" means just as much as "37" as far as identifiers are
concerned. And, having a cheat sheet that expounds on those
identifiers is almost a requirement as you typically are
describing a sh*tload of drops in a variety of different
offices throughout a building. "Workstation 3 in Electronics Lab",
"Supervisor's Office", "Cubicle 3B77A2 South", etc. So, the 0.625"
of horizontal space available for a "label" can suffice to carry
*just* a number.
OTOH, when you (me) are using the panel to interconnect a bunch
of different *systems* (HVAC, Irrigation, Surveillance Camera 3,
Hot Water Heater, Garage Door Opener, Weather Station, etc.)
then its more helpful if you can indicate what each connector
services *on* the panel (since people misplace cheat sheets;
businesses tend to have *staff* responsible for tracking what's
where on their patch panels!).
You probably *don't* have an equipment rack anywhere in your
home. And, probably don't want to see a mess of cables and
equipment. Or *hear* them (fans, etc.). Instead, you want to
tuck it all into some corner where it is just barely accessible.
"Make it fit".
E.g., here, I have the various processors, switches, UPS, etc.
hiding in the bottom of a "closet" off the kitchen. Space that
isn't easily used for anything that we would want to get at
often (because it's too low to the ground).
I can imagine others wanting to put it all in a big box and hide
it in a bedroom closet. (I'm not sure I would recommend locating
it in "non-living" space -- reliability! :< ) My goal is to
shrink things to about 10U -- I'm about double that, currently
(because I have lots of COTS components in the current implementation)
I'd like to come up with a "solution" that lets folks figure out
how best to package/deploy their own version instead of imposing
a solution. You want to use an equipment rack? Fine! *You*
figure out where to put it... (I have a friend with one of these
5,000sq ft palaces that *likes* making his toys visible. He'd
probably set it in a 42U rack with glass doors sitting in a
corner of his living room! "Conversation Piece" :-/ Sheesh!)
The idea of "custom panels" IN GENERAL makes perfect sense (e.g.,
the examples you cite). I just don't think many would pursue it
for *this* project (which would already be hard to get past your
S.O. -- regardless of how many shoes she has!! :> )
>> As I said elsewhere, think of how many folks with "black" color
>> scheme PC's have added/replaced CD/DVD drives and used *white*
>> ones... because the *black* ones weren't on sale? Or, a brandX
>> keyboard on a brandY computer? Or, who label things with
>> pen/pencil instead of a real "labeler" (or, don't bother to label
>> at all!! :> )
>>
>> And, that's just a "generic" panel. I.e., *exactly* what I already
>> HAVE... all it's buying me is "cut it in half" and don't make it
>> *look* like it has been cut in half! And, it still doesn't really
>> legend the connections (other than numbering them).
>>
>> E.g., with a graphic overlay, I can put pictures (icons) of cameras
>> with "NNW", "NNE", "SSW", "SSE", etc. to identify the various security
>> camera connections; icons of speakers with "N Kit" (kitchen), "S Kit",
>> "NW Fam", "SE Fam", "SW Fam", etc. to identify each of the network
>> speaker connections; little "antenna beacon" icons legended to identify
>> the connections associated with the beacons; icons of "CRTs" legended
>> to identify the connectors associated with the various control panels;
>> a bell to mark the connector for the alarm system; a big "drip" for
>> the irrigation system; etc. (I have mixed feelings about icons. But,
>> you could also arrange the connectors in *groups* and use the space
>> below each group to identify the group -- "Security Cameras" -- with
>> shorter indications to further qualify each individual connector: NNW,
>> NNE, SSW, etc.)
>
> Man, you guys must have a full-blown NSA setup going there :-)
Yeah. Wanna know what the neighbors had for breakfast this morning?
<grin>
[Actually, I haven't deployed the cameras outside the house, yet,
as that's going to usher in a bunch of "tricky" conversations.
Esp from folks who will think *I* should now monitor activities
outside *their* houses and be willing to sit through hours of
footage trying to identify someone who drove through the neighborhood
squealing their tires, etc.]
>> Shirley, trying to do anything like this on that "custom" panel
>> from fabricator is going to be outrageously expensive (and, if it
>> is engraved, probably pretty unusable, visually).
>>
>> And, if you change some wiring or add some new connections, you just
>> print a new overlay!
>
> Sure, if you need flexibility you can't have things engraved. In that
> case it is better to have slots for paper strip, like the quick-dial
> numbers on a fax machine.
Little paper strips fall out and get lots. Writing *on* the unit
ensures it stays *with* the unit. But, then you're screwed when
you want to change a label (recall, you only have 0.625" to make
your annotation!).
Given that the wiring isn't likely to change often (unless a connector
fails or a cable "in the wall" breaks), simply replacing the entire
overlay seems a good approach.
Of course, folks with larger/wider panels will be stuck having to
get their overlays printed "elsewhere" (unless you have a B size
printer). But, even that isn't a real hassle since it is so
infrequent.
>> Also, if you've screwed up *measuring* the locations of the various
>> mounting studs, etc. *required* to make the custom panel usable, you
>> don't learn $100/200 later! Screw up a graphic overlay and you're
>> out $2. It doesn't *care* where the studs are located because the
>> studs are already present on the panel *beneath* the overlay!
>
> You plan to screw the panels straight onto the studs? That sure is a
> true minimalist approach.
Not sure what you mean.
The panel consists of a sheet of aluminum, a set of PCBs (onto which
are mounted the connectors and punch-down blocks), and a set of
studs/standoffs that "float" the PCBs behind the aluminum sheet.
Opening
===== ==========
S CCCCC S
S CCCCC S
S CCCCC S
---------------
B B
B B
Viewed sighting *down* the edge so the connectors are stacked
normal to the page
Where:
== aluminum sheet
-- PCB
CC connector body (soldered to PCB)
S standoff/stud (fastened to panel and PCB)
B punch-down block (soldered to PCB)
So, the locations of the studs as they meet the panel are
significant. Drill the hole in the wrong place (assuming you
are machining a piece of metal -- or, having someone else
do it for you) and you can't line up the PCBs/connectors
with the slots ("opening") in the aluminum plate.
Since these studs don't appear on (or through!) the graphic overlay,
that's one less (actually, 24 holes) thing to worry about screwing up!
[Remember, I'm thinking about *other* people trying to make
such things!]
>>> Just think about
>>> what your own time is worth per hour, and then you still need to buy the
>>> stock somewhere.
>>
>> It's called a photograph. You buy them at Walgreens, Target, Costco,
>> Walmart, etc.
>
> Yeah, but those photos don't last.
Laminated they will last damn near forever. Remember, you aren't
poking at this every hour/day/week. You plug stuff in and forget
it. Until something stops working or you want to add some capability.
How often do you have to replace the labels on your fuse box
outside (?) your home? And, I suspect you spend far more time
in there (resetting breakers, etc.) than you ever would, here!
(E.g., how often do you reconfigure the cables going to your
network switch(es)?)
>> With the custom panel, you still are spending time. And, waiting
>> days/weeks to see if you've screwed up.
>>
>>> Which probably means another hour just for the drive
>>> into town, plus 2-3 gallons of gas at $4 a pop.
>>
>> Some of us have indoor plumbing, Joerg (i.e., we don't live 35+
>> miles from <wherever>) :> Even a thin sheet of rigid plastic can
>> be purchased from any of the local craft stores. Remember, it
>> doesn't have to *do* anything -- just cover some holes that we want
>> to pretend don't exist and "support" a photograph.
>
> Ain't no crafts store in this here town. But we can get saddles, boots,
> spurs, and glow plugs for the John Deere.
Ah. Perhaps that's why I thought you lived further out (east)!
[I've had an image of a spot near Lake Tahoe in my mind -- even
though I know you don't live in Tahoe!]
I can walk to a Kinkos in less than 15 minutes. E.g., I am planning
on taking my first pass of this "panel overlay" there, tomorrow, to
get it laminated. I used heavy card stock to print it on one of the
Phasers (gives it a high sheen, "magazine page" finish) to increase
it's "rigidity" and I'm hoping the plastic lamination will make it
even stiffer. If it works out, then I'll spend a bit more time
to pretty-up the thing (actually, have to make the second one as
well -- different legend) and call it "done"! :>
>> I think the graphic overlay would appeal to the sort of person
>> who *isn't* going to just settle for "using an equipment rack".
>> (I know several folks who *will* go the equipment rack route!)
>> It's a very low bar to cross -- low cost of admission. And,
>> very low cost for failure (print paper copies until you are
>> sure all is correct). And, lets them point to something that
>> is exclusively *their* creation -- since so much else *won't* be!
>>
>> And, hey, if he wanted to spend extra money on a fancy piece of
>> metal, there's nothing to stop him! He can even machine it out of
>> *platinum* if he wants! :> (chances are, that sort of sod would
>> not be doing *anything* himself so I won't worry about him!)
>
> For hobby or residential use it can be ok. But not really in the pro
> world, like industrial of when looking for venture funding.
Agreed. As I tried to clarify above: I'm concerned with folks
who are trying to do this "for themselves". A commercial offering
would be far less "custom": "This is the Model X. And here is the
Model Y. Which one do you want?"
And, commercial offerings tend to be *less* concerned with cost than
someone who's trying to bankroll a gizmo like this for themselves...
E.g., we've dropped about a kilobuck into *just* the irrigation
system -- with none of that spent on "labor" or "profit". We
could never have justified what it would have cost to *contract*
that job out! If I'd *tried* to contract *this* project out,
neither of us would *ever* retire (to enjoy it!) :>
--don
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-07-23 14:00 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ksm2a4$50m$1@gonzo.reversiblemaps.ath.cx> |
| In reply to | #12645 |
On 2013-07-23, Don Y <this@isnotme.com> wrote: > > Ah, sorry. We're speaking under different assumptions. :< > *I'm* talking about someone trying to reproduce my system > and facing the same sorts of challenges: a variable number of > "connections"; servicing a variety of *different* purposes; > with an *individual's* budget; etc. > > E.g., patch panels make sense fabricated the way they are when > they are being used to connect a bunch of "computers" together. > You probably already *have* several equipment racks for your > network switches, UPS, servers, patch panels, etc. This is where > the patch panel "belongs". I discovered these recently. http://www.dynamix.co.nz/index.html?do=viewproduct&code=HWS-1403&ID=33717035 (admittedly this is a wholesaler who is hiding the original brand, and probably on the wrong side of the world for you - but you may find something similar locally) these will fit flush with the wall between 18" studs, and the holes in the back accept 8-way patch block units (2 across) and a bunch of other things will fit too, the patch blocks are wired on the front so they look kind of ugly, but there's a nice white door with a lock so noone else needs to see that! -- ⚂⚃ 100% natural
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Don Y <this@isnotme.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-07-23 15:13 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ksmv6q$ar6$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #12662 |
Hi Jasen, On 7/23/2013 7:00 AM, Jasen Betts wrote: > On 2013-07-23, Don Y <this@isnotme.com> wrote: >> >> Ah, sorry. We're speaking under different assumptions. :< >> *I'm* talking about someone trying to reproduce my system >> and facing the same sorts of challenges: a variable number of >> "connections"; servicing a variety of *different* purposes; >> with an *individual's* budget; etc. >> >> E.g., patch panels make sense fabricated the way they are when >> they are being used to connect a bunch of "computers" together. >> You probably already *have* several equipment racks for your >> network switches, UPS, servers, patch panels, etc. This is where >> the patch panel "belongs". > > I discovered these recently. > > http://www.dynamix.co.nz/index.html?do=viewproduct&code=HWS-1403&ID=33717035 For some reason, nothing shows up for me (I probably have my browser locked down to tight for something they are using to show what *should* have been a static image! :< ) > (admittedly this is a wholesaler who is hiding the original brand, and > probably on the wrong side of the world for you - but you may find > something similar locally) > > these will fit flush with the wall between 18" studs, Typo? Studs here are 16 inch centers. But, often you will encounter studs spaced at closer distances (especially at the ends of walls, closets, etc. -- where things didn't work out to nice multiples of 16). E.g., in my case, one panel fits between two studs 9.75 apart; the other panel (located on the opposite wall just a few feet away!) fits between studs 13" apart (i.e., 11.25 and 14.5" on center, respectively). Go figure... <shrug> > and the holes in the back accept 8-way patch block units (2 across) > and a bunch of other things will fit too, the patch blocks are wired > on the front so they look kind of ugly, but there's a nice white door > with a lock so noone else needs to see that! Leviton has a boat-load of similar products "for the home". The one thing they have in common is outrageous prices! Everything is sold "a la carte" so a complete solution easily sets you back several hundred dollars. E.g., a 66-block is ~$25 (um, hello! ask your friendly neighborhood telco installer for a couple!); a "door" to cover the wiring center is $30-50; a 24 port panel is $200 (so, I'd need three of those??); they want $4 for a *single* CAT5 keystone jack (WTF?) etc. Folks forced down this route spend (waste?) a lot of money on things of very little value (IMO, YMMV) I'd rather spend that on something that actually *does* something ;-) (if it doesn't spin electrons, it's not doing anything for you!!) --don
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-07-23 07:09 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <b57h5gF4ahrU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #12645 |
Don Y wrote: > Hi Joerg, > > On 7/22/2013 4:17 PM, Joerg wrote: > [...] > You probably *don't* have an equipment rack anywhere in your > home. And, probably don't want to see a mess of cables and > equipment. Or *hear* them (fans, etc.). Instead, you want to > tuck it all into some corner where it is just barely accessible. > "Make it fit". > We do, in a utility closet. Phone, LAN, TV distribution, vidoe modulator feedback lines, central sprinkler circuit control, things like that. > E.g., here, I have the various processors, switches, UPS, etc. > hiding in the bottom of a "closet" off the kitchen. Space that > isn't easily used for anything that we would want to get at > often (because it's too low to the ground). > > I can imagine others wanting to put it all in a big box and hide > it in a bedroom closet. (I'm not sure I would recommend locating > it in "non-living" space -- reliability! :< ) My goal is to > shrink things to about 10U -- I'm about double that, currently > (because I have lots of COTS components in the current implementation) > I would recommend locating it in non-living space. It is best to have a utility closet in a house but unfortunately many builders skimp or want to boast the highest living square-footage possible. That's how stuff ends in garages where it cooks all summer long and gets dirty. > I'd like to come up with a "solution" that lets folks figure out > how best to package/deploy their own version instead of imposing > a solution. You want to use an equipment rack? Fine! *You* > figure out where to put it... (I have a friend with one of these > 5,000sq ft palaces that *likes* making his toys visible. He'd > probably set it in a 42U rack with glass doors sitting in a > corner of his living room! "Conversation Piece" :-/ Sheesh!) > With smoked glass doors and mood lighting :-) > The idea of "custom panels" IN GENERAL makes perfect sense (e.g., > the examples you cite). I just don't think many would pursue it > for *this* project (which would already be hard to get past your > S.O. -- regardless of how many shoes she has!! :> ) > Mine was real happy after I installed the system, when I showed her how we can now watch a movie anywhere, including outside. [...] > >>> Also, if you've screwed up *measuring* the locations of the various >>> mounting studs, etc. *required* to make the custom panel usable, you >>> don't learn $100/200 later! Screw up a graphic overlay and you're >>> out $2. It doesn't *care* where the studs are located because the >>> studs are already present on the panel *beneath* the overlay! >> >> You plan to screw the panels straight onto the studs? That sure is a >> true minimalist approach. > > Not sure what you mean. > > The panel consists of a sheet of aluminum, a set of PCBs (onto which > are mounted the connectors and punch-down blocks), and a set of > studs/standoffs that "float" the PCBs behind the aluminum sheet. > > Opening > ===== ========== > S CCCCC S > S CCCCC S > S CCCCC S > --------------- > B B > B B > > Viewed sighting *down* the edge so the connectors are stacked > normal to the page > > Where: > == aluminum sheet > -- PCB > CC connector body (soldered to PCB) > S standoff/stud (fastened to panel and PCB) > B punch-down block (soldered to PCB) > Ah, ok. It was a misunderstanding. I thought you meant wall studs. [...] >>>> Just think about >>>> what your own time is worth per hour, and then you still need to buy >>>> the >>>> stock somewhere. >>> >>> It's called a photograph. You buy them at Walgreens, Target, Costco, >>> Walmart, etc. >> >> Yeah, but those photos don't last. > > Laminated they will last damn near forever. Remember, you aren't > poking at this every hour/day/week. You plug stuff in and forget > it. Until something stops working or you want to add some capability. > > How often do you have to replace the labels on your fuse box > outside (?) your home? And, I suspect you spend far more time > in there (resetting breakers, etc.) than you ever would, here! > > (E.g., how often do you reconfigure the cables going to your > network switch(es)?) > Never. But I keep a number system. 1, 2, 3, 4 ... and then there is a printed sheet next to it saying what goes where. Reconfiguring would be totally easy. The numbers correspond to laocations and are followed by a 2nd number which indicated the kind of connection (Phone, LAN, TV, modulator feedback). Some locations only have TV going there. >>> With the custom panel, you still are spending time. And, waiting >>> days/weeks to see if you've screwed up. >>> >>>> Which probably means another hour just for the drive >>>> into town, plus 2-3 gallons of gas at $4 a pop. >>> >>> Some of us have indoor plumbing, Joerg (i.e., we don't live 35+ >>> miles from <wherever>) :> Even a thin sheet of rigid plastic can >>> be purchased from any of the local craft stores. Remember, it >>> doesn't have to *do* anything -- just cover some holes that we want >>> to pretend don't exist and "support" a photograph. >> >> Ain't no crafts store in this here town. But we can get saddles, boots, >> spurs, and glow plugs for the John Deere. > > Ah. Perhaps that's why I thought you lived further out (east)! > [I've had an image of a spot near Lake Tahoe in my mind -- even > though I know you don't live in Tahoe!] > Between Placerville and Folsom. There might be a crafts store in Folsom, somewhere. Placerville has the oldest hardware store west of the Mississippi. > I can walk to a Kinkos in less than 15 minutes. E.g., I am planning > on taking my first pass of this "panel overlay" there, tomorrow, to > get it laminated. I used heavy card stock to print it on one of the > Phasers (gives it a high sheen, "magazine page" finish) to increase > it's "rigidity" and I'm hoping the plastic lamination will make it > even stiffer. If it works out, then I'll spend a bit more time > to pretty-up the thing (actually, have to make the second one as > well -- different legend) and call it "done"! :> > [...] > E.g., we've dropped about a kilobuck into *just* the irrigation > system -- with none of that spent on "labor" or "profit". We > could never have justified what it would have cost to *contract* > that job out! If I'd *tried* to contract *this* project out, > neither of us would *ever* retire (to enjoy it!) :> > Same here. We just painted the house. It would have cost us around 7k. This way it cost about $400 in paint and several Saturdays. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-07-23 10:03 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <2bdtu8l117nag6eie53i1kg0a1a1e7btvr@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #12664 |
Just finished a project for a friend who wanted to update his home entertainment system. Replaced his 10 year old HDTV, AV received, new blu ray, added in a separate amp for his whole house speaker system. Boss wanted to know why it took so long! She had to just sit there while I seemed to take 10 minutes just to plug in one cable. The reason? The carpenter who had built the cabinetry had made each shelf just big enough for the equipment that went into it, probably 17.5 inches. He then put on a front piece and door that was about 2" narrower! You couldn't put out any of the equipment without removing all the shelves and turning it on its side. You could only access the connections on the back using a flashlight and mirror without pulling them out or moving the shelves to give you enough room to get a hand back there. Running a new cable was a multi-step process of lower equipment shelf A, making connection on back, drop cable down behind shelf. Raise shelf back into position, drop cable behind next shelf. Raise that last shelf as high as it could go to reach behind it and feed it through hole in bottom or side to get to next cabinet, etc.... I usually design with racks that I can either open up the rear panel, or slide out to get to the rear! Charlie
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Don Y <this@isnotme.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-07-23 21:59 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ksnmv1$t74$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #12669 |
On 7/23/2013 10:03 AM, Charlie E. wrote: > Just finished a project for a friend who wanted to update his home > entertainment system. Replaced his 10 year old HDTV, AV received, new > blu ray, added in a separate amp for his whole house speaker system. > > Boss wanted to know why it took so long! She had to just sit there > while I seemed to take 10 minutes just to plug in one cable. The > reason? The carpenter who had built the cabinetry had made each shelf > just big enough for the equipment that went into it, probably 17.5 > inches. He then put on a front piece and door that was about 2" > narrower! You couldn't put out any of the equipment without removing > all the shelves and turning it on its side. You could only access the > connections on the back using a flashlight and mirror without pulling > them out or moving the shelves to give you enough room to get a hand > back there. Running a new cable was a multi-step process of lower > equipment shelf A, making connection on back, drop cable down behind > shelf. Raise shelf back into position, drop cable behind next shelf. > Raise that last shelf as high as it could go to reach behind it and > feed it through hole in bottom or side to get to next cabinet, etc.... Sounds like some of the cars I've owned! :> (current vehicle you remove the front tires to change the plugs!) > I usually design with racks that I can either open up the rear panel, > or slide out to get to the rear! But a rack declares a certain amount of space/volume to be set aside for the kit. As well as defining the *shape* it will take. I've been trying hard to make all the "technology" disappear in this process. So you *don't* see lots of little boxes doing various different things "sitting around" with lots of cabling, controls, etc. I.e., when I'm done, the "bookshelf" stereos, DVD players, DVRs, telephones, thermostats, doorbells, garage door opener buttons, irrigation controllers, etc will "vanish". Get rid of all that stuff hanging on walls, shelves, etc. I.e., *know* it's there (somewhere) just not intruding on my perception!
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Don Y <this@isnotme.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-07-23 15:54 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ksn1jb$gda$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #12664 |
Hi Joerg, On 7/23/2013 7:09 AM, Joerg wrote: > Don Y wrote: >> You probably *don't* have an equipment rack anywhere in your >> home. And, probably don't want to see a mess of cables and >> equipment. Or *hear* them (fans, etc.). Instead, you want to >> tuck it all into some corner where it is just barely accessible. >> "Make it fit". > > We do, in a utility closet. As in "tuck it all into some corner"! > Phone, LAN, TV distribution, vidoe modulator > feedback lines, central sprinkler circuit control, things like that. I have these things all scattered around the house as befits their roles. E.g., the CATV distribution amp is located in the "space" above the front door (what would be an "attic" in a normal house but, here, is just a foot or so "tall"). Barely accessible but rarely *needing* access! The irrigation controller is located in the garage near the garage door as it's easy to get out through the wall to the valves (well, actually, the valves are distributed all around the yard -- front/back/sides -- but this is where I chose to bring them all through the wall since it is close to the rest of the "water" stuff (future flow meter, valve, master irrigation valve, softener, filtration, etc.) -- things that are handled by the "water" controller! (i.e., a home may or may not have an irrigation system -- but *should* have "water"!) The HVAC controller is located in with the furnace (d'uh!) as that's a convenient place to get at the wiring for the swamp cooler, furnace, ac compressor and "thermostat" (temperature sensor). Since every home needs one *and* every home needs a doorbell (?), that controller also monitors the various doorbell (buttons) and drives a pair of speakers in the ceiling in two different parts of the house. Since AC power is readily available, there, I can spend a fair bit of power "making noise" when someone comes to one of the doors (front/side/back/garage/driveway). Media gets served from a set of processors in a closet off the kitchen (since I need rotating media, there, and places like "in the ceiling" or "in the garage" would not be appropriate. All of these are integral parts of the automation system so none of them has a user interface, etc. I.e., no silly thermostats, doorbells, etc. hanging off walls in hallways, etc. >> E.g., here, I have the various processors, switches, UPS, etc. >> hiding in the bottom of a "closet" off the kitchen. Space that >> isn't easily used for anything that we would want to get at >> often (because it's too low to the ground). >> >> I can imagine others wanting to put it all in a big box and hide >> it in a bedroom closet. (I'm not sure I would recommend locating >> it in "non-living" space -- reliability! :< ) My goal is to >> shrink things to about 10U -- I'm about double that, currently >> (because I have lots of COTS components in the current implementation) > > I would recommend locating it in non-living space. It is best to have a > utility closet in a house but unfortunately many builders skimp or want > to boast the highest living square-footage possible. That's how stuff > ends in garages where it cooks all summer long and gets dirty. Closet is considered "living space". I.e., heated/cooled. You *could* survive in a closet whereas you couldn't in a garage. Here, garage is a death sentence for all things electronic. Even with our insulated door it still gets pretty warm in there! (before the new door, it would easily hit 140) I keep debating running "air" into the store room in the garage and moving the doorway to open into the interior of the house (instead of into the garage). That's a fairly large space that would be a great home for the freezer (currently in the garage!), my larger printers, plotter, etc. But... <shrug> >> I'd like to come up with a "solution" that lets folks figure out >> how best to package/deploy their own version instead of imposing >> a solution. You want to use an equipment rack? Fine! *You* >> figure out where to put it... (I have a friend with one of these >> 5,000sq ft palaces that *likes* making his toys visible. He'd >> probably set it in a 42U rack with glass doors sitting in a >> corner of his living room! "Conversation Piece" :-/ Sheesh!) > > With smoked glass doors and mood lighting :-) I have another friend with a small rack in his *bedroom*! Dunno what the appeal of that is supposed to be... <frown> [Though, having said that, I've thought of replacing the library card catalog I have with a pair of short racks and put much of this rack-mountable kit in them instead of treating them all as free-standing devices. Problem is finding racks that are the right height (I want to use the top of the racks as a "standing" work surface) *and* not too deep (front to back).] >> The idea of "custom panels" IN GENERAL makes perfect sense (e.g., >> the examples you cite). I just don't think many would pursue it >> for *this* project (which would already be hard to get past your >> S.O. -- regardless of how many shoes she has!! :> ) >> > > Mine was real happy after I installed the system, when I showed her how > we can now watch a movie anywhere, including outside. Mine is getting more and more nervous as the "controls" are disappearing. "Why can't I just use change (radio) stations like I used to? What do you mean, there soon will be *no* remote for the TV??" As a concession, I had to install three "control panels" so she can interact with the system in a more "traditional" manner. I've rationalized this to myself by locating them in the three places where you would typically want a quick summary of system status and presenting this visually would be most efficient: the two primary doors by which we enter/exit the house and the hallway to the bedrooms (where you "say good night/morning" to the house). [There's also a panel located in the closet that houses the media servers but that's more of a convenience for *me*... so I can do maintenance work without having to boot up a PC to "talk" to the system.] >>>> It's called a photograph. You buy them at Walgreens, Target, Costco, >>>> Walmart, etc. >>> >>> Yeah, but those photos don't last. >> >> Laminated they will last damn near forever. Remember, you aren't >> poking at this every hour/day/week. You plug stuff in and forget >> it. Until something stops working or you want to add some capability. >> >> How often do you have to replace the labels on your fuse box >> outside (?) your home? And, I suspect you spend far more time >> in there (resetting breakers, etc.) than you ever would, here! >> >> (E.g., how often do you reconfigure the cables going to your >> network switch(es)?) > > Never. But I keep a number system. 1, 2, 3, 4 ... and then there is a > printed sheet next to it saying what goes where. Reconfiguring would be > totally easy. The numbers correspond to laocations and are followed by a > 2nd number which indicated the kind of connection (Phone, LAN, TV, > modulator feedback). Some locations only have TV going there. I have two sorts of "connection points" in the house. One type is dedicated for specific needs. E.g., the drop for the irrigation controller is *just* a network drop FOR THE IRRIGATION CONTROLLER. The "uncommitted" points in the house (24 of them) each have a network drop, CATV drop and a POTS drop. So, you can plug in a laptop, phone or "conventional" (i.e., non-IP) TV in any of those locations. All the POTS drops terminate at a pair of punchdown blocks mounted on the wall alongside the furnace. All the CATV drops terminate at the distribution amp above the front door. All the CAt5 drops terminate in this small closet (the subject of this "panel" design). >>>> With the custom panel, you still are spending time. And, waiting >>>> days/weeks to see if you've screwed up. >>>> >>>>> Which probably means another hour just for the drive >>>>> into town, plus 2-3 gallons of gas at $4 a pop. >>>> >>>> Some of us have indoor plumbing, Joerg (i.e., we don't live 35+ >>>> miles from <wherever>) :> Even a thin sheet of rigid plastic can >>>> be purchased from any of the local craft stores. Remember, it >>>> doesn't have to *do* anything -- just cover some holes that we want >>>> to pretend don't exist and "support" a photograph. >>> >>> Ain't no crafts store in this here town. But we can get saddles, boots, >>> spurs, and glow plugs for the John Deere. >> >> Ah. Perhaps that's why I thought you lived further out (east)! >> [I've had an image of a spot near Lake Tahoe in my mind -- even >> though I know you don't live in Tahoe!] > > Between Placerville and Folsom. There might be a crafts store in Folsom, > somewhere. Placerville has the oldest hardware store west of the > Mississippi. Ah, OK. I knew a guy from (?) placerville. *Small* town (?) >> E.g., we've dropped about a kilobuck into *just* the irrigation >> system -- with none of that spent on "labor" or "profit". We >> could never have justified what it would have cost to *contract* >> that job out! If I'd *tried* to contract *this* project out, >> neither of us would *ever* retire (to enjoy it!) :> > > Same here. We just painted the house. It would have cost us around 7k. > This way it cost about $400 in paint and several Saturdays. Yup. Though it's not just "saving money". I find these sorts of "puzzles" to help keep my thinking "pliable" since the sorts of constraints that you face are very different than the "9 to 5" sorts. E.g., deciding how to plumb the pressure regulator/master valve/ anti-siphon device/main shutoff assembly required a fair bit of 3 dimensional thinking: "Yeah, I can envision all these parts *assembled*. But, will I be able to *disassemble* them once they are positioned in this particular location? Will I be able to unscrew this fitting? Do I need to add a union? You also learn things like: galvanized pipe sucks! (e.g., I've replaced everything with copper pipe and brass fittings -- *threaded* fittings instead of slip fittings so it's easier for *me* to service in the future!) And, you can control the *quality* of the workmanship. E.g., the *hired* plumber initially installed some of this kit -- and didn't seem to know what "vertical" meant! (No, 80 degrees isn't vertical... it might be considered "upright" by some but it sure isn't vertical!) Finally, it avoids the "Olde Farte" syndrome -- folks who rationalize hiring people to do things because they are too lazy/unambitious to do/learn for themselves! Sooner or later, the body will limit what I can do. Until then, I'd like to "try" as much as I can! :> [12 tons of rock coming this fall... at least I was smart enough to schedule it when its COOLER!] Having said all that (rant!), I may change my tune after I replace the roof next year... <frown> I guess a lot will depend on how much heavy stuff I have to carry up there! (so far, I've only dealt with 80 pound felt -- heavy but manageable!) --don
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-07-24 13:09 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <b5aqkhFq6uqU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #12676 |
Don Y wrote: > Hi Joerg, > > On 7/23/2013 7:09 AM, Joerg wrote: >> Don Y wrote: >>> You probably *don't* have an equipment rack anywhere in your >>> home. And, probably don't want to see a mess of cables and >>> equipment. Or *hear* them (fans, etc.). Instead, you want to >>> tuck it all into some corner where it is just barely accessible. >>> "Make it fit". >> >> We do, in a utility closet. > > As in "tuck it all into some corner"! > No, it is a wiring panel with enough space. It even has a large box for the WLAN patch connections in case some electronics have to be added later. Such as PoE. The only downside is that I have to scoot the freezer out of the way when I want to work on the TV amp stuff without too much contortion (because the lower back isn't that great anymore). The room itself is so spacious that I could even fit a small desk and chair in there. But that would not be legit (only one path of egress). >> Phone, LAN, TV distribution, vidoe modulator >> feedback lines, central sprinkler circuit control, things like that. > > I have these things all scattered around the house as befits > their roles. E.g., the CATV distribution amp is located in the > "space" above the front door (what would be an "attic" in a > normal house but, here, is just a foot or so "tall"). Barely > accessible but rarely *needing* access! > I don't like such things scattered. > The irrigation controller is located in the garage near the > garage door as it's easy to get out through the wall to the > valves (well, actually, the valves are distributed all around > the yard -- front/back/sides -- but this is where I chose to > bring them all through the wall since it is close to the > rest of the "water" stuff (future flow meter, valve, master > irrigation valve, softener, filtration, etc.) -- things that > are handled by the "water" controller! (i.e., a home may > or may not have an irrigation system -- but *should* have > "water"!) > All in the same utility room here. If anything needs fixing everyone knows where the stuff is. > The HVAC controller is located in with the furnace (d'uh!) > as that's a convenient place to get at the wiring for the > swamp cooler, furnace, ac compressor and "thermostat" > (temperature sensor). Since every home needs one *and* > every home needs a doorbell (?), that controller also > monitors the various doorbell (buttons) and drives a pair > of speakers in the ceiling in two different parts of the > house. Since AC power is readily available, there, I > can spend a fair bit of power "making noise" when someone > comes to one of the doors (front/side/back/garage/driveway). > > Media gets served from a set of processors in a closet > off the kitchen (since I need rotating media, there, and > places like "in the ceiling" or "in the garage" would not > be appropriate. > Over here media gets played where the media gear is, from the living room. But you don't have to watch the movie there, it gets transmitted over coax back to the utility closet and then into the main distribution. Of course with an iso amp so things won't pipe out of the antenna. > All of these are integral parts of the automation system > so none of them has a user interface, etc. I.e., no silly > thermostats, doorbells, etc. hanging off walls in hallways, etc. > I want the thermostat or control where the action is. In our case both the swamp cooler and the central HVAC are controlled from the living room. >>> E.g., here, I have the various processors, switches, UPS, etc. >>> hiding in the bottom of a "closet" off the kitchen. Space that >>> isn't easily used for anything that we would want to get at >>> often (because it's too low to the ground). >>> >>> I can imagine others wanting to put it all in a big box and hide >>> it in a bedroom closet. (I'm not sure I would recommend locating >>> it in "non-living" space -- reliability! :< ) My goal is to >>> shrink things to about 10U -- I'm about double that, currently >>> (because I have lots of COTS components in the current implementation) >> >> I would recommend locating it in non-living space. It is best to have a >> utility closet in a house but unfortunately many builders skimp or want >> to boast the highest living square-footage possible. That's how stuff >> ends in garages where it cooks all summer long and gets dirty. > > Closet is considered "living space". I.e., heated/cooled. You *could* > survive in a closet whereas you couldn't in a garage. > If there's a decent size fridge with beer in the garage I could :-) > Here, garage is a death sentence for all things electronic. Even > with our insulated door it still gets pretty warm in there! > (before the new door, it would easily hit 140) > Then the electronics isn't designed right. After all, garage door openers are full of electronics and they have to live in the nastiest area of a garage, under the ceiling. The cars also have to reside in the garage and nowadays they are chockfull of elecrtronic gizmos, most of them highly unnecessary. > I keep debating running "air" into the store room in the > garage and moving the doorway to open into the interior of > the house (instead of into the garage). That's a fairly > large space that would be a great home for the freezer > (currently in the garage!), my larger printers, plotter, > etc. But... <shrug> > Freezer in the garage? That is tough on its compressor. So yeah, it would make sense to change that. But it's probably as high as on the priority list as painting the pool house is here. >>> I'd like to come up with a "solution" that lets folks figure out >>> how best to package/deploy their own version instead of imposing >>> a solution. You want to use an equipment rack? Fine! *You* >>> figure out where to put it... (I have a friend with one of these >>> 5,000sq ft palaces that *likes* making his toys visible. He'd >>> probably set it in a 42U rack with glass doors sitting in a >>> corner of his living room! "Conversation Piece" :-/ Sheesh!) >> >> With smoked glass doors and mood lighting :-) > > I have another friend with a small rack in his *bedroom*! > Dunno what the appeal of that is supposed to be... <frown> > Strange. It's usually considered uncool to show so much nerdiness. It turns off potential girlfriends. Unless he is already married :-) > [Though, having said that, I've thought of replacing the > library card catalog I have ... What is a library card catalog? > ... with a pair of short racks > and put much of this rack-mountable kit in them instead > of treating them all as free-standing devices. Problem is > finding racks that are the right height (I want to use the top > of the racks as a "standing" work surface) *and* not too > deep (front to back).] > >>> The idea of "custom panels" IN GENERAL makes perfect sense (e.g., >>> the examples you cite). I just don't think many would pursue it >>> for *this* project (which would already be hard to get past your >>> S.O. -- regardless of how many shoes she has!! :> ) >>> >> >> Mine was real happy after I installed the system, when I showed her how >> we can now watch a movie anywhere, including outside. > > Mine is getting more and more nervous as the "controls" are > disappearing. "Why can't I just use change (radio) stations > like I used to? What do you mean, there soon will be *no* > remote for the TV??" ... Oh yeah, that would not go over too well with my wife either. > ... As a concession, I had to install three > "control panels" so she can interact with the system in a more > "traditional" manner. I've rationalized this to myself by > locating them in the three places where you would typically want > a quick summary of system status and presenting this visually > would be most efficient: the two primary doors by which we > enter/exit the house and the hallway to the bedrooms (where you > "say good night/morning" to the house). > > [There's also a panel located in the closet that houses the media > servers but that's more of a convenience for *me*... so I can > do maintenance work without having to boot up a PC to "talk" > to the system.] > But one needs a remote, nowadays. Having to get out of a chair to changes stations is so 1950's, and one could pull a muscle :-) [...] > I have two sorts of "connection points" in the house. One type > is dedicated for specific needs. E.g., the drop for the > irrigation controller is *just* a network drop FOR THE IRRIGATION > CONTROLLER. > > The "uncommitted" points in the house (24 of them) each have > a network drop, CATV drop and a POTS drop. So, you can plug in > a laptop, phone or "conventional" (i.e., non-IP) TV in any of > those locations. > > All the POTS drops terminate at a pair of punchdown blocks > mounted on the wall alongside the furnace. > To be honest, I haven't completed the 66 blocks. While installing our trusty old Cincinnatti Microwave phone quit and I went to buy a new one. They stopped making these, so I ended up with a large "system pack" full of cordless phones. Made the POTS network I just completed almost irrelevant, nothing much plugs into it. [...] >>> Ah. Perhaps that's why I thought you lived further out (east)! >>> [I've had an image of a spot near Lake Tahoe in my mind -- even >>> though I know you don't live in Tahoe!] >> >> Between Placerville and Folsom. There might be a crafts store in Folsom, >> somewhere. Placerville has the oldest hardware store west of the >> Mississippi. > > Ah, OK. I knew a guy from (?) placerville. *Small* town (?) > Yes, and with quite a history: http://www.beachcalifornia.com/hangmans-tree-placerville.html >>> E.g., we've dropped about a kilobuck into *just* the irrigation >>> system -- with none of that spent on "labor" or "profit". We >>> could never have justified what it would have cost to *contract* >>> that job out! If I'd *tried* to contract *this* project out, >>> neither of us would *ever* retire (to enjoy it!) :> >> >> Same here. We just painted the house. It would have cost us around 7k. >> This way it cost about $400 in paint and several Saturdays. > > Yup. Though it's not just "saving money". I find these sorts > of "puzzles" to help keep my thinking "pliable" since the > sorts of constraints that you face are very different than > the "9 to 5" sorts. > It also keeps one appreciative of folks doing non-engineering jobs. > E.g., deciding how to plumb the pressure regulator/master valve/ > anti-siphon device/main shutoff assembly required a fair bit of > 3 dimensional thinking: "Yeah, I can envision all these parts > *assembled*. But, will I be able to *disassemble* them once > they are positioned in this particular location? Will I be > able to unscrew this fitting? Do I need to add a union? > Or it goes like "Oh dang! I should have put a union in there because now ..." > You also learn things like: galvanized pipe sucks! > > (e.g., I've replaced everything with copper pipe and brass > fittings -- *threaded* fittings instead of slip fittings > so it's easier for *me* to service in the future!) > In this area they all happily mixed galvanized and brass and copper. Disgusting. > And, you can control the *quality* of the workmanship. > E.g., the *hired* plumber initially installed some of this > kit -- and didn't seem to know what "vertical" meant! > (No, 80 degrees isn't vertical... it might be considered > "upright" by some but it sure isn't vertical!) > > Finally, it avoids the "Olde Farte" syndrome -- folks > who rationalize hiring people to do things because they > are too lazy/unambitious to do/learn for themselves! > Sooner or later, the body will limit what I can do. Until > then, I'd like to "try" as much as I can! :> > Same here. > [12 tons of rock coming this fall... at least I was smart > enough to schedule it when its COOLER!] > > Having said all that (rant!), I may change my tune after > I replace the roof next year... <frown> I guess a lot will > depend on how much heavy stuff I have to carry up there! > (so far, I've only dealt with 80 pound felt -- heavy but > manageable!) > Ok, there I'd rent a lift. Costs less than the doctor visit for the prescription pills and cortizone shots, followed by several days in bed because you can't move. Happened last time I helped roofing abhouse as a volunteer. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
Page 3 of 6 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 Next page →
Back to top | Article view | comp.arch.embedded
csiph-web