Re: C++, Ada, ...

From	Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.arch.embedded
Subject	Re: C++, Ada, ...
Date	2021-04-18 10:39 +0300
Organization	Tidorum Ltd
Message-ID	<ie260rFghneU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	<s5f01b$4j3$1@dont-email.me> <s5f3c1$s06$1@dont-email.me>

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On 2021-04-17 19:45, David Brown wrote:
> On 17/04/2021 17:48, pozz wrote:
>> What do you think about different languages than usual C for embedded
>> systems?
>>
>> I mean C++, Ada but also Python. Always more powerful embedded
>> processors are coming, so I expect new and modern languages will enter
>> in the embedded world.
>>
>> ...
>> Is it ok for me to study and learn new things... but it will be more
>> difficult to acquire new skills for real jobs.
>>
>> What do you think?
> 
>   ...
> Ada involves a fair amount of change to how you work, compared to C
> development.  (Disclaimer - I have only done a very small amount of Ada
> coding, and no serious projects.  But I have considered it as an
> option.)  I really don't see it becoming much more common, and outside
> of niche areas (defence, aerospace) it is very rare.  Programming in Ada
> often takes a lot more effort even for simple things, leading quickly to
> code that is so wordy that it is unclear what is going on.

That depends, I guess, on what one considers "simple", and also, of 
course, on how familiar one is with the languages.

Perhaps it is time to link once again to the experience of C versus Ada 
in an introductory embedded-programming class using a model rail-road 
example, where the students using Ada fared much better than those using C:

http://archive.adaic.com/projects/atwork/trains.html

I am (as you guessed) an Ada fan, and find it a pleasure to write, even 
if it takes more keystrokes than the equivalent in C.

For embedded systems in particular, I find portability to be a great 
advantage of Ada. With few exceptions, the embedded program can be 
exercised on the development host, and if the target supports the 
standard Ada tasking system (or a subset of it), this applies even to 
multi-threaded programs (without the need to emulate some embedded 
RTK/OS on the host).

> And most of the advantages of Ada (such as better typing) can be
> achieved in C++ with less effort,

According to the link above, the main Ada advantage was the ability to 
define one's own problem-oriented scalar types, such as integers with 
specific value ranges. AIUI, this is not easily done in C++.

> and at the same time C++ can give additional safety on
> resources that is harder to get on Ada.  (But Ada has some nice features
> introspective that C++ programmers currently only dream about.)

Can you be more specific on those points, please?

> It used to be the case that C++ compilers were expensive and poor
> quality, that the resulting code was very slow on common
> microcontrollers, and that the language didn't have much extra to offer
> small-systems embedded developers.  That, I think, has changed in all
> aspects.  I use gcc 10 with C++17 on Cortex-M devices, and features like
> templates, strong enumerations, std::array, and controlled automatic
> conversions make it easier to write good code.

AdaCore provides the gcc-based GNAT Ada compiler for several embedded 
targets, free to use for open-source projects: libre.adacore.com.

Commercial projects can use Ada on other targets by means of the 
(different) AdaCore compiler that generates C code as an intermediate 
representation.

Thread

C++, Ada, ... pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2021-04-17 17:48 +0200
  Re: C++, Ada, ... David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-04-17 18:45 +0200
    Re: C++, Ada, ... Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2021-04-17 19:55 +0100
      Re: C++, Ada, ... David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-04-18 12:53 +0200
        Re: C++, Ada, ... Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-04-18 18:48 +0300
          Re: C++, Ada, ... David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-04-18 18:59 +0200
            Re: C++, Ada, ... Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-04-19 13:51 +0300
              Re: C++, Ada, ... David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-04-19 14:22 +0200
                Re: C++, Ada, ... Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-04-19 19:16 +0300
                Re: C++, Ada, ... David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-04-19 22:19 +0200
                Re: C++, Ada, ... Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-04-20 01:03 +0300
                Re: C++, Ada, ... Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-04-19 18:09 -0400
                Re: C++, Ada, ... David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-04-20 06:58 +0200
                Re: C++, Ada, ... Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2021-04-19 23:18 -0700
                Re: C++, Ada, ... David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-04-20 09:36 +0200
              Re: C++, Ada, ... Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2021-04-19 12:20 -0700
                Re: C++, Ada, ... Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-04-20 00:26 +0300
                Re: C++, Ada, ... Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2021-04-19 16:01 -0700
                Re: C++, Ada, ... Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-04-20 10:47 +0300
                Re: C++, Ada, ... Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2021-04-19 23:30 +0100
    Re: C++, Ada, ... Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2021-04-18 08:29 +1000
    Re: C++, Ada, ... Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-04-18 10:39 +0300
      Re: C++, Ada, ... David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-04-18 14:59 +0200
        Re: C++, Ada, ... Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-04-18 19:23 +0300
          Re: C++, Ada, ... David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-04-18 19:26 +0200
            Re: C++, Ada, ... Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2021-04-18 19:29 +0100
              Re: C++, Ada, ... David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-04-18 22:23 +0200
                Re: C++, Ada, ... Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2021-04-18 23:09 +0100
                Re: C++, Ada, ... David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-04-19 08:56 +0200
                Re: C++, Ada, ... Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-04-19 14:04 +0300
                Re: C++, Ada, ... Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2021-04-19 15:16 +0300
                Re: C++, Ada, ... Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2021-04-19 12:47 -0700
                Re: C++, Ada, ... Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-04-20 00:37 +0300
                Re: C++, Ada, ... David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-04-20 07:50 +0200
                Re: C++, Ada, ... David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-04-19 14:26 +0200
            Re: C++, Ada, ... Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2021-04-18 19:30 +0100
              Re: C++, Ada, ... David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-04-18 22:17 +0200
                Re: C++, Ada, ... Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2021-04-18 23:17 +0100
                Re: C++, Ada, ... David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-04-19 08:52 +0200
                Re: C++, Ada, ... Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2021-04-19 10:08 +0100
                Re: C++, Ada, ... David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-04-19 12:15 +0200
                Re: C++, Ada, ... Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2021-04-19 12:00 +0100
                Re: C++, Ada, ... Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2021-04-19 16:15 +0300
                Re: C++, Ada, ... David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-04-19 15:43 +0200
    Re: C++, Ada, ... pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2021-04-19 18:38 +0200
      Re: C++, Ada, ... Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2021-04-19 10:48 -0700
      Re: C++, Ada, ... Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2021-04-19 19:33 +0100
        Re: C++, Ada, ... Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2021-04-20 15:09 +0300
          Re: C++, Ada, ... Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2021-04-20 15:29 +0100
      Re: C++, Ada, ... David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-04-19 22:48 +0200
        Re: C++, Ada, ... pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2021-04-19 23:17 +0200
          Re: C++, Ada, ... Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2021-04-19 15:55 -0700
            Re: C++, Ada, ... David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-04-20 08:21 +0200
          Re: C++, Ada, ... David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-04-20 08:20 +0200
  Re: C++, Ada, ... Dave Nadler <drn@nadler.com> - 2021-04-17 21:07 -0400
    Re: C++, Ada, ... Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-04-17 18:53 -0700
    Re: C++, Ada, ... Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2021-04-18 09:42 +0100
  Re: C++, Ada, ... dalai lamah <antonio12358@hotmail.com> - 2021-04-18 14:39 +0200

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