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who believes EV batteries are good for 10 years? haha!

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  who believes EV batteries are good for 10 years? haha! Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2023-03-29 13:58 +0200
    Re: who believes EV batteries are good for 10 years? haha! Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> - 2023-03-30 00:13 +1100
      Re: who believes EV batteries are good for 10 years? haha! not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2023-03-30 07:49 +1000
        Re: who believes EV batteries are good for 10 years? haha! Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> - 2023-03-30 12:13 +1100
    Re: who believes EV batteries are good for 10 years? haha! Daryl <dwalford@westpine.com.au> - 2023-03-30 12:45 +1100
      Re: who believes EV batteries are good for 10 years? haha! Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> - 2023-03-30 14:59 +1100

#174 — who believes EV batteries are good for 10 years? haha!

I mean the lithium batteries in a laptop computer only
last a few years.

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#175

On 29/3/2023 10:58 pm, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> I mean the lithium batteries in a laptop computer only
> last a few years.
> 
You *might* benefit from a good read of this.

https://au.renogy.com/blog/everything-you-need-to-know-about-lithium-battery-charging-cycles/

It's the charging cycle and the usage style that are the critical 
things. I know of a number of hybrid cars where the batteries are in 
excess of 10 years old. At 10 years, if charged and used correctly, they 
should still have better than 80% capacity remaining. Same applies to BEVs.


-- 
Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
       (with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

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#176

In aus.science Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> On 29/3/2023 10:58 pm, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>> I mean the lithium batteries in a laptop computer only
>> last a few years.
>> 
> You *might* benefit from a good read of this.
> 
> https://au.renogy.com/blog/everything-you-need-to-know-about-lithium-battery-charging-cycles/
> 
> It's the charging cycle and the usage style that are the critical 
> things. I know of a number of hybrid cars where the batteries are in 
> excess of 10 years old. At 10 years, if charged and used correctly, they 
> should still have better than 80% capacity remaining.

The numbers from that article suggest (vaguely) that "used
correctly" means you only use 25% of the available capacity before
recharging, so that's rather a big chunk off the advertised range
of the vehicles. It probably does apply to many urban commuters,
but EVs are advertised now as being replacements for internal
combustion powered cars, so presumably many are used as such in
longer trips.

Also the article's about solar power, not electric vehicles, so
their conversion of charge cycles to years probably isn't based on
factors relevent to vehicle use.

My guess is that many won't make it to 10 years in useful
condition, but some will, which is actually the same as I've
experienced with laptops from different users. My laptop experience
also suggests that battery quality is a big factor as well (cheap
no-name replacement packs die much sooner than OEM batteries).

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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#177

On 30/3/2023 8:49 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> In aus.science Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>> On 29/3/2023 10:58 pm, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>>> I mean the lithium batteries in a laptop computer only
>>> last a few years.
>>>
>> You *might* benefit from a good read of this.
>>
>> https://au.renogy.com/blog/everything-you-need-to-know-about-lithium-battery-charging-cycles/
>>
>> It's the charging cycle and the usage style that are the critical
>> things. I know of a number of hybrid cars where the batteries are in
>> excess of 10 years old. At 10 years, if charged and used correctly, they
>> should still have better than 80% capacity remaining.
> 
> The numbers from that article suggest (vaguely) that "used
> correctly" means you only use 25% of the available capacity before
> recharging, so that's rather a big chunk off the advertised range
> of the vehicles. It probably does apply to many urban commuters,
> but EVs are advertised now as being replacements for internal
> combustion powered cars, so presumably many are used as such in
> longer trips.

Research suggests that most people could easily substitute a BEV for 
their daily driver since they drive less than 50 kilometres daily. 
Certainly, were either or both of our cars BEVs, then we would use less 
than 20% of battery capacity daily with occasional long trips. Some of 
those trips would be 100-200 km round trip, some rarer trips would 
exceed that. I consider my self an average car user though not a 
commuter since I'm retired, certainly my annual mileage indicates that.

> 
> Also the article's about solar power, not electric vehicles, so
> their conversion of charge cycles to years probably isn't based on
> factors relevent to vehicle use.

Maybe not but EV batteries are generally warranted for 8 years or more. 
That gives a good expectation of a 10+ year average lifespan. My point, 
by including that article, was to demonstrate that *how you charge* and 
*how you use* the EV battery is what ultimately determines the battery 
lifespan. Phones and laptops are no different and this is a point lost 
on most people.

Tesla
Model S and Model X - 8 years (with the exception of the original 60 kWh 
battery manufactured before 2015 that is covered for a period of 8 years 
or 125,000 miles/200,000 km, whichever comes first).
Model 3 with Standard or Mid-Range Battery - 8 years or 100,000 miles 
(160,000 km), whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of 
Battery capacity* over the warranty period.
Model 3 with Long Range Battery - 8 years or 120,000 miles (192,000 km), 
whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity* 
over the warranty period.

Hyundai
8 year battery warranty; Each high voltage lithium-ion battery is backed 
by an 8 year/ 160,000km replacement warranty (whichever occurs first)
> 
> My guess is that many won't make it to 10 years in useful
> condition, but some will, which is actually the same as I've

The reality, with Toyota hybrids at least, is that EV batteries do last 
longer than 10 years and still retain a useful range. I suspect the 
BEVs, once they get up to 10 year lifespans, will be no different.

> experienced with laptops from different users. My laptop experience

Cars *are not* laptops.

> also suggests that battery quality is a big factor as well (cheap
> no-name replacement packs die much sooner than OEM batteries).
> 
That's true for any and all batteries.

-- 
Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
       (with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

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#178

On 29/3/2023 10:58 pm, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> I mean the lithium batteries in a laptop computer only
> last a few years.
> 
Seems to be quite variable, the way they are treated as in the way they 
are charged and discharged makes quite a difference to their life.
A friend owns a 12yr old Prius which still has its OE battery and its 
still working fine but its not difficult to find examples of batteries 
that have failed under 10yrs old.
The big problem for owners is if their battery does fail what do they 
replace the battery or replace the car?
Either way the cost is high.


-- 
Daryl

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#179

On 30/3/2023 12:45 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 29/3/2023 10:58 pm, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>> I mean the lithium batteries in a laptop computer only
>> last a few years.
>>
> Seems to be quite variable, the way they are treated as in the way they 

With the Prius, treatment of the battery is *critical* to longevity. 
Cooling, for instance, is a critical feature of Lithium Ion batteries 
and the early Prius' had an Achilles Heel in that regard. The battery 
cooling system had a critical vent at the back seat area and it was 
possible for the owner to accidentally block this with stuff placed 
carelessly in the back seat/floor area. Also, if you run a Prius at very 
high highway speeds, the Hybrid battery won't get charged by the hybrid 
charging system *or* regeneration. If that happens, and the battery goes 
dead flat, you won't be able to start or drive the car. The charging 
system will need a recalibration/cell balancing in order to get it 
functioning again.

> are charged and discharged makes quite a difference to their life.

I'm sure I mentioned this point in another post!  ;-)

> A friend owns a 12yr old Prius which still has its OE battery and its 

Well, how odd, I too have a friend with a 12 year old Prius. Oops, no, 
it's now 13 years old.  ;-)  It's a 2010 model.

Anyway. be careful mentioning having *friends* around here, you'll be 
pilloried. I guess it's because those doing the pillorying don't have 
any friends or understand the concept of *having friends*.

> still working fine but its not difficult to find examples of batteries 
> that have failed under 10yrs old.

Invariably some aspect of maintenance, cooling or operation is 
responsible for a good proportion of those. The first generation Prius 
had a few issues, as mentioned above but the issue was addressed by 
Toyota early on and reliability has markedly increased.

> The big problem for owners is if their battery does fail what do they 
> replace the battery or replace the car?

Well, according to carsales.com.au, a 2010 Prius is valued at $9000 to 
$15000 depending on condition. Given the Prius engine is 
*understressed*, one could expect it to do 300k-400k kilometres without 
requiring an overhaul if properly serviced. A Prius hybrid battery can 
be replaced for $2,000 - $4,500, you work it out on the *residual* value 
of the car.

> Either way the cost is high.

Bullshit. You will recoup the battery cost in fuel cost savings over the 
life of the battery. Likely *half* the expected battery life. It's a 
value judgement whichever way you address it.

-- 
Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
       (with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

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