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Groups > alt.usage.english > #1148514 > unrolled thread
| Started by | occam <occam@nowhere.nix> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-08-10 08:16 +0200 |
| Last post | 2026-08-13 02:46 +0800 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 333 — 25 participants |
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Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-10 08:16 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-10 08:02 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-10 10:21 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-10 21:32 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-11 07:00 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-11 17:45 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-08-11 15:19 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-11 20:46 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> - 2026-08-11 16:40 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-12 06:15 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-12 15:26 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-12 09:49 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-12 09:57 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-08-12 15:25 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-12 20:38 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-12 22:28 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-08-13 01:02 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-13 08:37 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-13 10:39 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-13 21:05 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-13 11:54 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-08-13 14:26 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-13 17:11 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-13 21:58 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-14 08:22 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-14 11:53 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-14 21:26 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-14 20:48 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-13 22:40 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-08-13 09:56 -0700
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-08-13 10:16 -0700
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-13 21:06 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-08-13 19:14 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-14 08:02 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> - 2026-08-14 15:05 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 09:30 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-14 19:56 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 10:17 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-15 07:42 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-15 05:31 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 20:36 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 16:45 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 17:27 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-15 22:22 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-15 20:20 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 09:11 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-16 08:37 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-16 10:15 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-16 10:55 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-16 11:03 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 20:52 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 11:43 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-08-15 01:59 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 22:08 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> - 2026-08-17 11:51 -0400
Woke, wokest? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-15 07:38 +0200
Re: Woke, wokest? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-15 12:18 +0200
Re: Woke, wokest? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-15 20:44 +0200
Re: Woke, wokest? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-15 20:20 +0100
Re: Woke, wokest? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 09:18 +1000
Re: Woke, wokest? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-16 08:04 +0200
Re: Woke, wokest? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-16 09:25 +0200
Re: Woke, wokest? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-16 09:32 +0100
Re: Woke, wokest? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-15 22:29 +0100
Re: Woke, wokest? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-16 11:22 +0200
Re: Woke, wokest? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 20:54 +1000
Re: Woke, wokest? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-17 07:50 +0200
Re: Woke, wokest? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-17 21:36 +0100
Re: Woke, wokest? wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-08-17 22:38 +0000
Re: Woke, wokest? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-16 13:00 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-14 08:33 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-15 07:32 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-14 09:09 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-14 12:00 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-14 21:13 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-14 13:35 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-14 13:14 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-14 14:31 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-14 17:48 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-14 19:07 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-13 22:40 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-13 20:31 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2026-08-13 19:55 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-15 19:53 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-15 20:48 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-15 22:31 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-16 06:02 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 09:27 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-13 22:02 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-14 14:25 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-14 15:30 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-14 10:00 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-14 15:49 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-14 11:09 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-14 16:50 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 10:38 -0700
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-14 19:48 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-15 19:54 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 09:42 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 07:38 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 16:37 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 10:30 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-15 09:46 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-15 09:47 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 16:48 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 09:37 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-16 08:16 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-16 08:36 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-16 10:17 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-16 11:17 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-16 14:02 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-16 12:11 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 20:59 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 21:04 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-16 18:05 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-17 08:28 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-17 10:54 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-08-16 19:21 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-16 21:10 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-16 21:05 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-15 22:36 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 20:39 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-15 13:25 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 10:52 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-14 11:12 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2026-08-14 15:45 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-14 13:24 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2026-08-14 17:36 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-08-14 18:47 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-14 15:03 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 15:44 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 07:47 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 16:40 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 10:36 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 20:44 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 16:53 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-15 10:00 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-15 02:24 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 21:49 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 07:53 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-15 06:41 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-15 07:57 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-15 10:13 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 16:59 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-15 05:41 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-15 11:22 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-15 19:35 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 12:07 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-14 13:29 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 11:35 -0700
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-14 14:59 -0400
Cycle Helmets (was: Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-15 19:46 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 15:46 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-15 10:16 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2026-08-15 10:46 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-15 10:41 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-08-15 19:29 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-15 17:33 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-15 22:52 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 17:05 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Charles Hope <clh@candehope.me.uk> - 2026-08-15 17:15 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-15 20:31 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 21:37 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-08-15 19:38 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-15 21:18 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-15 22:45 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-15 22:11 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-16 08:59 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-16 10:38 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-16 12:11 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-14 21:05 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-15 20:04 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 10:42 -0700
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-14 21:01 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-14 16:13 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 16:26 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 16:24 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-15 06:59 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-15 22:59 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Phil <phil@anonymous.invalid> - 2026-08-16 00:18 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 07:59 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 09:39 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 19:44 -0700
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-15 10:27 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-15 09:55 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-15 21:42 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-15 12:28 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-15 23:03 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2026-08-15 10:51 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 20:59 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-15 13:02 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-15 20:32 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-13 23:03 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-14 08:43 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-14 13:04 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-15 13:06 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-15 13:59 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-15 17:25 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-15 15:46 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-15 16:54 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-15 19:53 +0200
There was a crroked man and he stole a crooked straight Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-16 06:14 +0200
Re: There was a crroked man and he stole a crooked straight Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-16 21:14 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-15 21:28 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-15 23:10 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-16 03:17 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> - 2026-08-16 18:42 +1200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-08-17 04:10 -0300
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-17 10:54 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-18 08:51 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-18 11:56 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-18 10:48 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-18 19:28 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-18 23:15 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-08-19 18:49 -0300
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-19 17:56 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-20 02:36 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-19 21:48 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-20 09:57 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-20 11:34 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Charles Hope <clh@candehope.me.uk> - 2026-08-15 17:15 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 10:20 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-18 11:56 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-16 09:41 +0200
North and South Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-15 20:35 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-16 09:41 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-15 16:54 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-15 20:37 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-15 23:14 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 10:30 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-16 03:20 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-15 20:47 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-16 06:19 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-16 21:21 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-17 07:48 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-17 21:39 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-18 04:28 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-18 14:12 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-16 09:41 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-14 14:19 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-14 18:10 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-14 13:30 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-15 10:07 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-15 13:32 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-15 21:41 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-14 21:10 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-15 19:46 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-15 22:01 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-16 06:48 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-13 22:40 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Madhu <enometh@meer.net> - 2026-08-14 12:17 +0530
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-14 12:04 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-14 13:55 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-14 13:04 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-14 21:19 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-14 15:25 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-14 21:15 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 16:30 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 10:05 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 08:08 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-14 23:24 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 10:12 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-15 12:54 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 21:06 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-15 13:08 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 17:20 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-15 14:16 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Charles Hope <clh@candehope.me.uk> - 2026-08-15 15:15 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-15 21:29 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-15 23:26 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 10:54 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-16 03:22 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-15 19:56 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-15 18:43 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-16 09:00 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-15 18:55 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-16 09:07 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 10:42 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-15 15:29 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-15 21:26 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-16 09:17 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-15 20:09 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 11:25 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 10:01 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 08:14 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-15 05:28 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> - 2026-08-15 14:24 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-12 22:26 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-10 10:41 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-10 11:36 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-10 13:58 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-10 21:36 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-11 10:47 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-11 09:31 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-11 08:39 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-11 17:54 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-11 09:07 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-11 11:07 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> - 2026-08-11 22:03 +1200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-11 10:53 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-10 13:11 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-10 15:41 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-11 10:52 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-11 06:52 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-11 10:53 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-11 20:33 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2026-08-11 10:45 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-11 10:32 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-11 15:56 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-11 21:02 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-11 22:53 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-12 11:09 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-12 20:14 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-12 11:24 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-13 14:45 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-12 10:40 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-13 15:09 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-12 14:59 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-12 22:40 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-12 22:38 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-08-10 14:22 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-10 16:26 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-11 11:21 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-10 11:05 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-10 11:48 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-10 17:30 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-10 21:42 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-11 11:58 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-11 06:02 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2026-08-11 09:38 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Madhu <enometh@meer.net> - 2026-08-12 21:55 +0530
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-13 07:46 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-13 02:46 +0800
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| From | occam <occam@nowhere.nix> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-10 08:16 +0200 |
| Subject | Why does the Devil need an advocate? |
| Message-ID | <ndt8m8FtbfkU1@mid.individual.net> |
To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend the devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that these advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the indefensible is a bad thing? I haven't done much bible research, but I'm guessing the devil has his own support hierarchy, just as God has his - Son, holy ghost, holy Mary, saints, seraphim, angels, cherubs, etc. Surely the devil's anti-hierarchy must have some lawyers, accountants, and heating engineers to see to the running of the inferno and its related affairs? Why does he need Earthly advocates?
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| From | Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-10 08:02 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <ndtbcfFtk6aU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #1148514 |
Le 10/08/2026 à 07:16, occam a écrit : > > To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend the > devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that these > advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the indefensible > is a bad thing? > > I haven't done much bible research, but I'm guessing the devil has his > own support hierarchy, just as God has his - Son, holy ghost, holy Mary, > saints, seraphim, angels, cherubs, etc. > > Surely the devil's anti-hierarchy must have some lawyers, accountants, > and heating engineers to see to the running of the inferno and its > related affairs? Why does he need Earthly advocates? Devil's advocates now oppose ideas in order to test them. Historically, an advocatus diaboli took a sceptical view of people's lives before they were declared saints. The Devil is unfairly demonised, in my opinion. Look at God's actions as reported in the Bible: sending the Flood to kill almost everyone (that was genocide, surely?); obliterating cities with fire and brimstone; sending plagues and killing firstborn sons…. I mean, Jesus! The Devil's actions are not in the same league. By comparison, He's a bit of a saint. Hmm. Are Donald Trump's lawyers a new sort of devil's advocate?
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| From | occam <occam@nowhere.nix> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-10 10:21 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ndtfvjFue7iU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #1148516 |
On 10/08/2026 09:02, Hibou wrote: > Le 10/08/2026 à 07:16, occam a écrit : >> >> To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend the >> devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that these >> advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the indefensible >> is a bad thing? >> >> I haven't done much bible research, but I'm guessing the devil has his >> own support hierarchy, just as God has his - Son, holy ghost, holy Mary, >> saints, seraphim, angels, cherubs, etc. >> >> Surely the devil's anti-hierarchy must have some lawyers, accountants, >> and heating engineers to see to the running of the inferno and its >> related affairs? Why does he need Earthly advocates? > > > Devil's advocates now oppose ideas in order to test them. Historically, > an advocatus diaboli took a sceptical view of people's lives before they > were declared saints. > > The Devil is unfairly demonised, in my opinion. Look at God's actions as > reported in the Bible: sending the Flood to kill almost everyone (that > was genocide, surely?); obliterating cities with fire and brimstone; > sending plagues and killing firstborn sons…. I mean, Jesus! > > The Devil's actions are not in the same league. By comparison, He's a > bit of a saint. > By all accounts, the devil was a senior angel, who got demoted and condemned to hell for plotting against Him. (Saints are human, so he was never a saint.)
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-10 21:32 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <wzqeS.2668$xiy3.322@fx16.ams1> |
| In reply to | #1148516 |
On 10/08/2026 08:02, Hibou wrote: > Le 10/08/2026 à 07:16, occam a écrit : >> >> To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend the >> devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that these >> advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the indefensible >> is a bad thing? >> >> I haven't done much bible research, but I'm guessing the devil has his >> own support hierarchy, just as God has his - Son, holy ghost, holy Mary, >> saints, seraphim, angels, cherubs, etc. >> >> Surely the devil's anti-hierarchy must have some lawyers, accountants, >> and heating engineers to see to the running of the inferno and its >> related affairs? Why does he need Earthly advocates? > > > Devil's advocates now oppose ideas in order to test them. Historically, > an advocatus diaboli took a sceptical view of people's lives before they > were declared saints. > > The Devil is unfairly demonised, in my opinion. Look at God's actions as > reported in the Bible: sending the Flood to kill almost everyone (that > was genocide, surely?); obliterating cities with fire and brimstone; > sending plagues and killing firstborn sons…. I mean, Jesus! > > The Devil's actions are not in the same league. By comparison, He's a > bit of a saint. > > Hmm. Are Donald Trump's lawyers a new sort of devil's advocate? A junior or trainee barrister who assists a more senior barrister is called a devil - but I suspect you knew that. All the people who enable Trump's behaviour... -- Sam Plusnet
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| From | Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-11 07:00 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <ndvs4dFb0htU3@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #1148552 |
Le 10/08/2026 à 21:32, Sam Plusnet a écrit : > On 10/08/2026 08:02, Hibou wrote: >> >> Hmm. Are Donald Trump's lawyers a new sort of devil's advocate? > > A junior or trainee barrister who assists a more senior barrister is > called a devil - but I suspect you knew that. I've heard it, yes, though I doubt I could have come out with it without your reminder. > All the people who enable Trump's behaviour... "All rulers in all ages have tried to impose a false view of the world upon their followers…" - Orwell, 'Nineteen Eighty-Four'. The astonishing thing about Mr Trump is that he's so brazen (and inept) in doing this, and the astonishing thing about the Americans is that so many of them swallow his nonsense "easily, with the stupidity of an animal" (ibid.). I worry about humanity's future.
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| From | Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-11 17:45 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <115ejvu$3pgun$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #1148564 |
On 11/08/26 16:00, Hibou wrote: > > The astonishing thing about Mr Trump is that he's so brazen (and > inept) in doing this, and the astonishing thing about the Americans > is that so many of them swallow his nonsense "easily, with the > stupidity of an animal" (ibid.). > > I worry about humanity's future. That has bothered me too. There's nothing subtle about Trump. It's easy to tell when he's lying (his mouth is open), and he doesn't hide the fact that he doesn't have a clue what is going on. Not long ago he did a dementia assessment and he thought it was an IQ test. So why has he fooled so many people? Just recently I was reading an article about the general decline of reading and writing skills, caused by an excessive dependence on getting the answers from computers. Just in passing the author mentioned that the USA had already entered the post-literate period. So maybe the country's political ills arise from a failure of education. -- Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org Newcastle, NSW
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| From | wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-11 15:19 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <115feio$13vh$1@usenet.csail.mit.edu> |
| In reply to | #1148570 |
In article <115ejvu$3pgun$1@dont-email.me>, Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote: >That has bothered me too. There's nothing subtle about Trump. It's easy >to tell when he's lying (his mouth is open), and he doesn't hide the >fact that he doesn't have a clue what is going on. Not long ago he did a >dementia assessment and he thought it was an IQ test. So why has he >fooled so many people? I do not think he has fooled many people. About 60% of the US population pays no attention to the news and is frankly just indifferent to what's happening in Washington; these are the people who drive the "thermostatic public opinion" effect, because they fail to make the connection between policies pursued by politicians and what happens in their everyday lives. Among the remaining 40% who do pay attention, the great majority have made political partisanship part of their identity and what matters to them is that Trump has the magic "(R)" after his name. You probably recall years ago, that Trump said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and still win? (Similarly, a century ago it was said that Democrats could nominate a yellow dog in the South and it would still win, because a century ago the South still hated the Republicans for having freed the slaves.) -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can, wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together." my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-11 20:46 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <q_KeS.3173$l417.2581@fx11.ams1> |
| In reply to | #1148570 |
On 11/08/2026 08:45, Peter Moylan wrote: > On 11/08/26 16:00, Hibou wrote: >> >> The astonishing thing about Mr Trump is that he's so brazen (and >> inept) in doing this, and the astonishing thing about the Americans >> is that so many of them swallow his nonsense "easily, with the >> stupidity of an animal" (ibid.). >> >> I worry about humanity's future. > > That has bothered me too. There's nothing subtle about Trump. It's easy > to tell when he's lying (his mouth is open), and he doesn't hide the > fact that he doesn't have a clue what is going on. Not long ago he did a > dementia assessment and he thought it was an IQ test. So why has he > fooled so many people? > > Just recently I was reading an article about the general decline of > reading and writing skills, caused by an excessive dependence on getting > the answers from computers. Just in passing the author mentioned that > the USA had already entered the post-literate period. So maybe the > country's political ills arise from a failure of education. > Stories which portray Trump in a good light are rarely going to show up in left-leaning US media - MS Now for example, (formerly MSNBC). It is equally unlikely for anything which does not flatter Trump to show up in right wing media. Those on the right who _do_ follow politics are going to see a carefully curated version of the current White House. -- Sam Plusnet
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| From | Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-11 16:40 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <orvm7ld40t42tv1vgbm0eonmrgh4eimpk9@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #1148594 |
On Tue, 11 Aug 2026 20:46:30 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote: >On 11/08/2026 08:45, Peter Moylan wrote: >> On 11/08/26 16:00, Hibou wrote: >>> >>> The astonishing thing about Mr Trump is that he's so brazen (and >>> inept) in doing this, and the astonishing thing about the Americans >>> is that so many of them swallow his nonsense "easily, with the >>> stupidity of an animal" (ibid.). >>> >>> I worry about humanity's future. >> >> That has bothered me too. There's nothing subtle about Trump. It's easy >> to tell when he's lying (his mouth is open), and he doesn't hide the >> fact that he doesn't have a clue what is going on. Not long ago he did a >> dementia assessment and he thought it was an IQ test. So why has he >> fooled so many people? >> >> Just recently I was reading an article about the general decline of >> reading and writing skills, caused by an excessive dependence on getting >> the answers from computers. Just in passing the author mentioned that >> the USA had already entered the post-literate period. So maybe the >> country's political ills arise from a failure of education. >> >Stories which portray Trump in a good light are rarely going to show up >in left-leaning US media - MS Now for example, (formerly MSNBC). >It is equally unlikely for anything which does not flatter Trump to show >up in right wing media. The problem with this analysis is - FACTs "which portray Trump in a good light" are relatively rare. Stories start with the facts, and given somewhat-expert explication. But Trump is at odds with the experts, as a usual thing. So he condemns experts, the NY Times, the Wall Street Journal, etc., as 'fake news' that good MAGA-heads should tune out. There is a reason that it is the rightwing which gets characterized as "ensiloed" and out of touch -- they are. Trump says that his poor poll ratings are fake, that 'really' he is more popular than ever. I expect that some of the riightwing outlets, therefore, never cite or mention any of the polls that show him near all-time lows for popularity overall and on most issues. That is just one clear example. "Partial" describes their coverage both in terms of bias and in the crude, literal meaning of the word -- they omit coverage of stories. Where MS NOW can cite experts (with credentials) as well as snarky opinions, the Right is stuck with snarky opinions and omitting the whole story. At one time, I thought it was mere snark when MS NOW quoted anchors (from Fox, usually) giving pro-Trump opinions. When I considered fairness and impartiality, I recognized that what they give us is the OTHER side of the story (even though, maybe with a sneer). (Mis)quoting an outrageous, single opinion from the biggest loudmouth interviewed for the other side is not as fair as playing the news report which has gone out to millions. > >Those on the right who _do_ follow politics are going to see a carefully >curated version of the current White House. I agree with the general sentiment, but "follow politics" is almost too generous to describe their commitment. -- Rich Ulrich
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| From | Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-12 06:15 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <ne2dqtFnph1U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #1148594 |
Le 11/08/2026 à 20:46, Sam Plusnet a écrit : > > Stories which portray Trump in a good light are rarely going to show up > in left-leaning US media - MS Now for example, (formerly MSNBC). > It is equally unlikely for anything which does not flatter Trump to show > up in right wing media. > > Those on the right who _do_ follow politics are going to see a carefully > curated version of the current White House. But but, Mr Trump's assertions are not self-consistent. He has, for example, repeatedly said, over months and months, that his war in Iran is nearly over: <https://www.cbsnews.com/news/when-will-the-iran-war-end-what-trump-has-said/> 2026-06-11 That article was published in June and here we are in August. Mr Trump's supporters don't need any other source. All they have to do is listen to him, and set the little grey cells in motion. I quoted from Orwell. Here he is again: "Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four hours? Yes, they swallowed it. Parsons swallowed it easily, with the stupidity of an animal. The eyeless creature at the other table swallowed it fanatically, passionately, with a furious desire to track down, denounce, and vaporise anyone who should suggest that last week the ration had been thirty grams. Syme, too - in some more complex way, involving doublethink - Syme swallowed it." Are Trump's supporters just stupid or are they using doublethink?
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| From | Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-12 15:26 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <115h06h$icjt$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #1148598 |
On 12/08/26 15:15, Hibou wrote: > > But but, Mr Trump's assertions are not self-consistent. He has, for > example, repeatedly said, over months and months, that his war in Iran > is nearly over: > > <https://www.cbsnews.com/news/when-will-the-iran-war-end-what-trump-has-said/> > 2026-06-11 > > That article was published in June and here we are in August. Mr Trump's > supporters don't need any other source. All they have to do is listen to > him, and set the little grey cells in motion. The time will come when he announces that the first year of the war is nearly over. -- Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org Newcastle, NSW
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| From | Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-12 09:49 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <115h8hu$kp5b$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #1148598 |
Hibou hat am 12.08.2026 um 07:15 geschrieben: > Le 11/08/2026 à 20:46, Sam Plusnet a écrit : >> >> Stories which portray Trump in a good light are rarely going to show >> up in left-leaning US media - MS Now for example, (formerly MSNBC). >> It is equally unlikely for anything which does not flatter Trump to >> show up in right wing media. >> >> Those on the right who _do_ follow politics are going to see a >> carefully curated version of the current White House. > > > But but, Mr Trump's assertions are not self-consistent. He has, for > example, repeatedly said, over months and months, that his war in Iran > is nearly over: > > <https://www.cbsnews.com/news/when-will-the-iran-war-end-what-trump-has-said/> > 2026-06-11 > > That article was published in June and here we are in August. Mr Trump's > supporters don't need any other source. All they have to do is listen to > him, and set the little grey cells in motion. > > I quoted from Orwell. Here he is again: > > "Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four > hours? Yes, they swallowed it. Parsons swallowed it easily, with the > stupidity of an animal. The eyeless creature at the other table > swallowed it fanatically, passionately, with a furious desire to track > down, denounce, and vaporise anyone who should suggest that last week > the ration had been thirty grams. Syme, too - in some more complex way, > involving doublethink - Syme swallowed it." > > Are Trump's supporters just stupid or are they using doublethink? I don't know about his supporters, but I'm pretty sure that he sees Nineteen Eighty-Four as a script.
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| From | occam <occam@nowhere.nix> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-12 09:57 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ne2nbsFpdcqU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #1148598 |
On 12/08/2026 07:15, Hibou wrote: > Are Trump's supporters just stupid or are they using doublethink? Is the Pope Catholic? Does Dolly Parton sleep on her back? (P.S. The answer to your questions is 'yes'. If only they were smart enough to care, they'd recognise that 'Trumpspeak' is 'doublethink' for dumb people.)
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| From | wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-12 15:25 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <115i39t$22c9$1@usenet.csail.mit.edu> |
| In reply to | #1148598 |
In article <ne2dqtFnph1U1@mid.individual.net>, Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote: >Are Trump's supporters just stupid or are they using doublethink? The only thing that matters to Trump's supporters is that he wants to hurt the same people as they do. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can, wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together." my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
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| From | Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-12 20:38 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <scfp7ltu5ha00ntgtfcdhqbt6u6629pgda@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #1148618 |
On Wed, 12 Aug 2026 15:25:49 -0000 (UTC), wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) wrote: >The only thing that matters to Trump's supporters is that he wants to >hurt the same people as they do. In a nutshell. -- Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
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| From | Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-12 22:28 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <cA5fS.3880$yTD7.2941@fx12.ams1> |
| In reply to | #1148618 |
On 12/08/2026 16:25, Garrett Wollman wrote: > In article <ne2dqtFnph1U1@mid.individual.net>, > Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote: > >> Are Trump's supporters just stupid or are they using doublethink? > > The only thing that matters to Trump's supporters is that he wants to > hurt the same people as they do. You mean the _real_ enemy. Not Iran or China or North Korea etc. It's them Dems! -- Sam Plusnet
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| From | wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-13 01:02 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <115j533$2dsm$1@usenet.csail.mit.edu> |
| In reply to | #1148625 |
In article <cA5fS.3880$yTD7.2941@fx12.ams1>, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote: >On 12/08/2026 16:25, Garrett Wollman wrote: >> In article <ne2dqtFnph1U1@mid.individual.net>, >> Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote: >> >>> Are Trump's supporters just stupid or are they using doublethink? >> >> The only thing that matters to Trump's supporters is that he wants to >> hurt the same people as they do. > >You mean the _real_ enemy. >Not Iran or China or North Korea etc. It's them Dems! No, in his case it means anyone who isn't a straight white Christian American cis man. Well, they'll make an exception for Afrikaners, apparently. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can, wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together." my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
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| From | Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-13 08:37 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <ne5agvF7efcU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #1148629 |
Le 13/08/2026 à 02:02, Garrett Wollman a écrit : > Sam Plusnet wrote: >> On 12/08/2026 16:25, Garrett Wollman wrote: >>> >>> The only thing that matters to Trump's supporters is that he wants to >>> hurt the same people as they do. >> >> You mean the _real_ enemy. >> Not Iran or China or North Korea etc. It's them Dems! > > No, in his case it means anyone who isn't a straight white Christian > American cis man. Well, they'll make an exception for Afrikaners, > apparently. And those with less than $1x10⁹ are just 'losers'? It's bleak, isn't it? (I'm amused to hear that, when scared, the bugger hides among the burgers: "The revelation comes after reports that Trump boarded Air Force One on 8 July in view of television cameras, before hiding in a catering truck to be transported to a military aircraft" - <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c980r4wpl9lo>)
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| From | occam <occam@nowhere.nix> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-13 10:39 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ne5e5tF80eeU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #1148640 |
On 13/08/2026 09:37, Hibou wrote: > Le 13/08/2026 à 02:02, Garrett Wollman a écrit : >> Sam Plusnet wrote: >>> On 12/08/2026 16:25, Garrett Wollman wrote: >>>> >>>> The only thing that matters to Trump's supporters is that he wants to >>>> hurt the same people as they do. >>> >>> You mean the _real_ enemy. >>> Not Iran or China or North Korea etc. It's them Dems! >> >> No, in his case it means anyone who isn't a straight white Christian >> American cis man. Well, they'll make an exception for Afrikaners, >> apparently. > > > And those with less than $1x10⁹ are just 'losers'? > > It's bleak, isn't it? > > > (I'm amused to hear that, when scared, the bugger hides among the burgers: > > "The revelation comes after reports that Trump boarded Air Force One on > 8 July in view of television cameras, before hiding in a catering truck > to be transported to a military aircraft" - > <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c980r4wpl9lo>) > Even more telling is that the rest of the Air Force One passengers (journalists etc) were allowed to travel on the suspect airplane, and take the risk on behalf of the Orange One.
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| From | Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-13 21:05 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <2spfS.444$IHg2.255@fx02.ams1> |
| In reply to | #1148645 |
On 13/08/2026 09:39, occam wrote: > On 13/08/2026 09:37, Hibou wrote: >> Le 13/08/2026 à 02:02, Garrett Wollman a écrit : >>> Sam Plusnet wrote: >>>> On 12/08/2026 16:25, Garrett Wollman wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The only thing that matters to Trump's supporters is that he wants to >>>>> hurt the same people as they do. >>>> >>>> You mean the _real_ enemy. >>>> Not Iran or China or North Korea etc. It's them Dems! >>> >>> No, in his case it means anyone who isn't a straight white Christian >>> American cis man. Well, they'll make an exception for Afrikaners, >>> apparently. >> >> >> And those with less than $1x10⁹ are just 'losers'? >> >> It's bleak, isn't it? >> >> >> (I'm amused to hear that, when scared, the bugger hides among the burgers: >> >> "The revelation comes after reports that Trump boarded Air Force One on >> 8 July in view of television cameras, before hiding in a catering truck >> to be transported to a military aircraft" - >> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c980r4wpl9lo>) >> > > Even more telling is that the rest of the Air Force One passengers > (journalists etc) were allowed to travel on the suspect airplane, and > take the risk on behalf of the Orange One. Hegseth went on the second plane with Trump. Rubio and Bessent were left on the threatened plane. Make of that what you will. What a shame they used a catering truck to take him off. It really should have been the honey waggon. -- Sam Plusnet
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