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Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator

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  Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-23 23:13 +0800
    Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-08-23 11:20 -0700
      Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-25 01:15 +0800
        Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-25 03:28 +0800
          Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-25 12:20 +0800
            Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-08-25 15:34 +0000
              Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-08-25 09:35 -0700
                Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-28 20:07 +0800
                  Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-29 16:59 +0800
                    Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-30 04:13 +0800
              Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-08-25 11:22 -0700
                Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-29 17:08 +0800
              Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-28 20:12 +0800
                Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-08-28 21:02 -0400
                  Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-29 10:15 +0800
                    Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-29 11:55 +0800
                      Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-29 17:38 +0800
                        Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-30 04:09 +0800
                      Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-08-31 09:34 -0700
                        Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-09-02 22:59 +0800
                          Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-09-02 08:29 -0700
                            Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-02 12:36 -0700
                              Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-09-02 13:00 -0700
                                Re: Origin Of Filename ... Babylon cuneiforms etched on bread? Exorcism? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-09-04 12:24 +0800
                              Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-02 21:55 +0000
                                The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-03 18:29 +0800
                                  Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-09-03 08:02 -0700
                                    Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-03 15:49 +0000
                                    Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-09-03 14:08 -0400
                                      Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-09-03 11:34 -0700
                                        Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-09-03 18:01 -0400
                                          Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-03 15:26 -0700
                                        Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-09-04 04:51 +0200
                                          Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) James Dow Allen <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-04 04:27 +0000
                                            Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-04 12:52 +0800
                                              Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-09-04 08:15 -0700
                                            Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-09-05 06:05 +0200
                                              Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) James Dow Allen <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-05 09:13 +0000
                                                Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-05 21:09 +0000
                                      Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-03 21:11 +0000
                                        Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-09-03 18:08 -0400
                                    Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? Malcolm Purvis <malcolm@purvis.id.au> - 2026-09-04 06:49 +1000
                                      Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-03 21:27 +0000
                                Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-03 08:28 -0700
                          Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-09-02 15:37 -0400
                    Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-08-29 05:25 +0000
                      Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-29 13:35 +0800
                        Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-08-29 17:35 +0000
                          Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-08-29 15:42 -0400
                            Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-08-29 21:07 +0000
                              Re: Origin Of .... "say what?" "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-30 18:00 +0800
                          Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-30 04:17 +0800
                  Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Charles Hope <clh@candehope.me.uk> - 2026-08-29 09:45 +0000
                Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-29 17:14 +0800
                  Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-30 03:52 +0800
                  Re: Origin Of ..... Darklands the video game? Medieval Europe? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-30 04:24 +0800
                    Re: Origin Of ..... Darklands & the Holy Roman Empire? 15th century?? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-30 16:47 +0800
                    Re: Origin Of ..... Darklands the video game? Medieval Europe? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-31 17:08 +0800
                      Re: Origin Of ..... Darklands the video game? Medieval Europe? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-31 16:40 +0100
                      Re: Origin Of ..... Darklands the video game? Medieval Europe? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-09-02 23:02 +0800

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#1149854 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?

On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 22:59:44 +0800
"Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Cuneiform is pictographic in origin too; but it was developed by
> > scribes who mainly used wedge-shaped reeds to stamp on clay tablets,
> > rather than ink and pen to write on papyrus (or paint on walls,) so
> > the shapes were more abstract than hieroglyphs. IIRC, as it changed
> > over time the characters eventually became unrecognizable as even
> > abstract pictures unless you compare them against the earlier
> > forms.  
> 
> Maybe the clay tablets we found were just student work to master
> etching tools.

One does wonder, but I'd imagine that, much as medieval scribes used
wax for an erasable "scratchpad" medium, they probably did the same.
I'd have to read up on it, though.

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#1149865 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?

On 9/2/26 08:29, John Ames wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 22:59:44 +0800
> "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>> Cuneiform is pictographic in origin too; but it was developed by
>>> scribes who mainly used wedge-shaped reeds to stamp on clay tablets,
>>> rather than ink and pen to write on papyrus (or paint on walls,) so
>>> the shapes were more abstract than hieroglyphs. IIRC, as it changed
>>> over time the characters eventually became unrecognizable as even
>>> abstract pictures unless you compare them against the earlier
>>> forms.
>>
>> Maybe the clay tablets we found were just student work to master
>> etching tools.
> 
> One does wonder, but I'd imagine that, much as medieval scribes used
> wax for an erasable "scratchpad" medium, they probably did the same.
> I'd have to read up on it, though.

The clay tablets could just be smoothed out and written over.

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#1149869 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?

On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 12:36:10 -0700
Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> wrote:

> >> Maybe the clay tablets we found were just student work to master
> >> etching tools.  
> > 
> > One does wonder, but I'd imagine that, much as medieval scribes used
> > wax for an erasable "scratchpad" medium, they probably did the same.
> > I'd have to read up on it, though.  
> 
> The clay tablets could just be smoothed out and written over.

True enough, at least until they dried out/were fired.

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#1149987 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... Babylon cuneiforms etched on bread? Exorcism?

On 9/3/2026 4:00 AM, John Ames wrote:
>>> One does wonder, but I'd imagine that, much as medieval scribes used
>>> wax for an erasable "scratchpad" medium, they probably did the same.
>>> I'd have to read up on it, though.
>>
>> The clay tablets could just be smoothed out and written over.
> 
> True enough, at least until they dried out/were fired.


Or maybe they were just etched on bread,
baked, then being eaten with water!?

Exorcism? :)

-- 

    @~@   Simplicity is Beauty! Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch!
   / v \  May the Force and farces be with you! Live long and prosper!!
  /( _ )\ https://sites.google.com/site/changmw/
    ^ ^   https://github.com/changmw/changmw
          The game is afoot... Meow...

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#1149884 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?

On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 12:36:10 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:

> The clay tablets could just be smoothed out and written over.

That’s what the ancient Cretans did.

But every now and then, a house or shed or some such structure with a
bunch of clay tablets in it would burn down, and the clay would get
baked in the fire, so that it couldn’t be erased and reused. And so,
samples of their writing survived down through the ages for us to
puzzle over.

Linear B (an old form of Greek) has been cracked, Linear A (even
older) is still a puzzle.

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#1149922 — The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

On 03/09/2026 1:29 PM, James Dow Allen wrote:
> 
> Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> posted:
> 
>> On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 04:44:55 GMT, James Dow Allen wrote:
>>
>>> These tablets are mostly, respectively, letters to the King of Mari
>>> (Zimri-Lin or his predecessor) and letters to Pharaohs Amenhotep III and
>>> Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten) of Egypt.
>>>
>>> ... plus there is one difficult-to-translate word found at both Mari
>>> and Amarna which isn't translated. That word is "Apiru" or "Habiru."
>>> This same word appears in other ancient Near Eastern and Egyptian
>>> texts.
>>>
>>> Most, but certainly not all, scholars believe 'Apiru' to be cognate
>>> with English 'Hebrew.' Best here may be to peer no further down this
>>> rabbit-hole.
>>
>> No rabbit-hole. I think it’s known from elsewhere that the Hebrews
>> were one of the subject tribes of the Egyptian Empire. Just one of
>> many.
> 
> No.  "Apiru" is widely thought to denote "mercenary soldier" or "bandit" or
> "outsider."  Proposed etymologies include "From beyond the river" or
> "(from the land of) dust."
> 

Actually (O^O) -- that's inline A.S.C.I.I. art for a guy pushing up his
glasses, so I've included alt.ascii-art in this discussion -- as I've
talked to a real live Jew, there is an ancient tradition among them-
selves that they were a warrior nation, so the etymology should be con-
sidered -- and maybe rejected -- in a new light.  That they are the
"Apiru" of Egypt.

Now, we have modern examples of such adaptions of /foreign terms/, as
the very own yearly /Viking Festival/ in Iceland.  Of course, that term
didn't get applied to the whole nation, but that can be considered an
accident of history, division between the other Nordic nations, and gen-
eral warfare between themselves; and of coures, having never been sub-
jects to the Bri'ish except for a very short duration during W.W.I.I.

Something maybe not even the Bri'ish of alt.folklore.computers nor alt.
english.usage may remember.

Anyway, we now have history thread to uncover.  Whether we're successful
or not remains to be seen, as there's ample evidence that Egyptologists
do not like it when people from other fields /butt in/ on their expert-
iese.  For a good -- and by Usenet standards -- ancient flamewar, see
Bernal's /Black Athena/ and the relevant counter arguments, all publish-
ed in physical book form; which may also appear an archive.org but I
didn't check this time.  Nowadays, real life Egyptologists agree that
the study of classics -- I believe they call themselves classicists wi-
thout any relation to C++ -- was indeed liberally literatted [sic] with
racism; and that without any race horses.

I personally admit little interested in reading the /Amarna Letters/ --
I believe that's the term Egyptologists use for the stash -- because I'm
quite frankly tired of Akhenaten and his ilk; side not for alt.usage.
english, is "ilk" considered a common word, or one of the /ChatGPT voca-
bulary/? -- so I will not be undertaking this endeavour [sic] myself.

> Several of the Amarna letters appeal to Pharaoh for soldiers or archers
> to defend from invading Apiru.  There is a very intriguing mention of
> "hapiru" in the more ancient Mari letters.  Rather than wading through
> my maze of notes and bookmarks, just now I asked the bot for a summary.
> Urkesh was Mari's northernmost province, bordering on Hurrian lands.
> Terru was its Governor.


Ah, there you confirm my terminology; thank you.

> 
> Google's Gemini wrote:
>>> In ARM 28, 46, Terru writes a letter to King Zimri-Lim of Mari explaining
>>> that after being forced from power at Urkesh, he had to abandon his
>>> house and leave to live as a displaced outsider (ḫapiru) in the town
>>> of Šinaḫ. The Akkadian phrase "ana ḫapīrūtim attaṣi" reflects a shift
>>> into a stateless, socio-political exile rather than an ethnic transition.
> 
> In Genesis, "Hebrew" appears almost exclusively as an exonym.  Among themselves
> the enslaved "Hebrews" refer to themselves as "Children of Israel."

That would indeed strengthen my hypothesis, but you're free to refute
me as I am not a Hebrew, nor a Jew.

In addition to the other groups, I've added alt.history.ancient-egypt.


Best wishes, and happy studies of the veritable Amarna letters, sans the
English translations!
-- 
Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com
https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:;

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#1149931 — Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 18:29:16 +0800
Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:

> side not for alt.usage.english, is "ilk" considered a common word, or
> one of the /ChatGPT vocabulary/?

"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd say
if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not just some-
thing the chatbots dredge up.

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#1149935 — Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> posted:

> On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 18:29:16 +0800
> Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
> 
> > side not for alt.usage.english, is "ilk" considered a common word, or
> > one of the /ChatGPT vocabulary/?
> 
> "Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd say
> if trying to put on a "literary affect." 

As used today by people trying to give an impression of literary culture, it 
usually just means "sort": "Donald Trump and politicians of that ilk" means 
"Donald Trump and similarly corrupt politicians". Historically (and today in 
Scottish clan names) it means "same": the Macduff of that ilk is the Macduff 
of Macduff.

It's definitely not just some-
> thing the chatbots dredge up.
> 


-- 
athel

Living in Marseilles for 39 years; mainly in England before that,
with long periods in Singapore, California, Chile and Canada 

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#1149951 — Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 08:02:04 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 18:29:16 +0800
>Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
>
>> side not for alt.usage.english, is "ilk" considered a common word, or
>> one of the /ChatGPT vocabulary/?
>
>"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd say
>if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not just some-
>thing the chatbots dredge up.


I disagree.  It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
some politician "of that ilk".  In this county (USA), political
discussions are very common.  

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#1149955 — Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

> > "Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
> > say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
> > just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.  
> 
> I disagree.  It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
> some politician "of that ilk".  In this county (USA), political
> discussions are very common.  

Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street
vernacular, is all.

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#1149969 — Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 11:34:09 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
>Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > "Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
>> > say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
>> > just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.  
>> 
>> I disagree.  It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
>> some politician "of that ilk".  In this county (USA), political
>> discussions are very common.  
>
>Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street
>vernacular, is all.

Depends.  If the "man on the street" is talking about sports, he's not
going to say that a player on some team is "of that ilk".  But, if
he's in a discussion about poltitics, "ilk" might be in his active
vocabulary.

Politics _are_ a daily subject of discussion.

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#1149976 — Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew?

On 9/3/26 15:01, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 11:34:09 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
>> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> "Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
>>>> say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
>>>> just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.
>>>
>>> I disagree.  It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
>>> some politician "of that ilk".  In this county (USA), political
>>> discussions are very common.
>>
>> Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street
>> vernacular, is all.
> 
> Depends.  If the "man on the street" is talking about sports, he's not
> going to say that a player on some team is "of that ilk".  But, if
> he's in a discussion about poltitics, "ilk" might be in his active
> vocabulary.
> 
> Politics _are_ a daily subject of discussion.

Of course, "ilk" is always pejorative (except in the Nash couplet).

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#1149985 — Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 11:34:09 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
>Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > "Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
>> > say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
>> > just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.  
>> 
>> I disagree.  It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
>> some politician "of that ilk".  In this county (USA), political
>> discussions are very common.  
>
>Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street
>vernacular, is all.

Of course it's not common. 

Very few people have names the same as the place they live in, and
most of those that do and would refer to themselves as "of that Ilk"
live in Scotland.

I believe there is a place called Hayes in a place that used to be
called Middlesex, and perhaps if I lived there I might, in a jocular
manner, refer to myself as "Hayes of that Ilk" but even then the
occasions for using it would be few.




-- 
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

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#1149988 — Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> posted:
> On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 11:34:09 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
> >Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> > "Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
> >> > say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
> >> > just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.  
> >> 
> >> I disagree.  It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
> >> some politician "of that ilk".  In this county (USA), political
> >> discussions are very common. 

In my experience. "of that ilk" in USA is almost always derogatory,
especially when applied to political alignment, e.g.
"racists, MAGA nuts, conspiracy theorists and others of that ilk."
 
> >
> >Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street
> >vernacular, is all.
> 
> Of course it's not common. 
> 
> Very few people have names the same as the place they live in, and
> most of those that do and would refer to themselves as "of that Ilk"
> live in Scotland.

The duplication of a surname in Great Britain, with or without the "of" is
often associated with a title: the present Prince of Wales' uncle is Charles
Spencer, Earl Spencer (though this may be abbreviated to Charles Earl Spencer?).

I'm probably wrong but when a surname is duplicated in Scotland it
often denotes that the person is the Chief of the same-named Clan (or,
if Master instead of Chief, the chief's oldest son).

Are the following  all essentially the same?
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Clan Buchanan
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Buchanan
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] of Buchanan
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] of That Ilk
The optional ordinal number ("9th" in this example) shows how many prior
Chiefs there were, and emphasizes that the person is a Chief.  But would
Chiefdom be implicit from the "of" anyway?

Instead of a Chief, the title-holder might be a Laird.
Of course "of That Ilk" is used only when the Clan or Lairdship has
the same name as the surname.
Sir William Fraser, 6th of Philorth may have been a de facto Chief of Fraser,
but wasn't titled such and thus couldn't abbreviate his suffix to "of that Ilk."

Apologies for all the errors!
(And what has this to do with the Amarna Letters?  :-)
James

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#1149989 — Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew?

On 04/09/2026 12:27 PM, James Dow Allen wrote:
> 
> Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> posted:
>> On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 11:34:09 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
>>> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> "Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
>>>>> say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
>>>>> just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.
>>>>
>>>> I disagree.  It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
>>>> some politician "of that ilk".  In this county (USA), political
>>>> discussions are very common.
> 
> In my experience. "of that ilk" in USA is almost always derogatory,
> especially when applied to political alignment, e.g.
> "racists, MAGA nuts, conspiracy theorists and others of that ilk."
>   
>>>
>>> Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street
>>> vernacular, is all.
>>
>> Of course it's not common.
>>
>> Very few people have names the same as the place they live in, and
>> most of those that do and would refer to themselves as "of that Ilk"
>> live in Scotland.
> 
> The duplication of a surname in Great Britain, with or without the "of" is
> often associated with a title: the present Prince of Wales' uncle is Charles
> Spencer, Earl Spencer (though this may be abbreviated to Charles Earl Spencer?).
> 
> I'm probably wrong but when a surname is duplicated in Scotland it
> often denotes that the person is the Chief of the same-named Clan (or,
> if Master instead of Chief, the chief's oldest son).
> 
> Are the following  all essentially the same?
> - Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Clan Buchanan
> - Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Buchanan
> - Maurice Buchanan [9th] of Buchanan
> - Maurice Buchanan [9th] of That Ilk
> The optional ordinal number ("9th" in this example) shows how many prior
> Chiefs there were, and emphasizes that the person is a Chief.  But would
> Chiefdom be implicit from the "of" anyway?
> 
> Instead of a Chief, the title-holder might be a Laird.
> Of course "of That Ilk" is used only when the Clan or Lairdship has
> the same name as the surname.
> Sir William Fraser, 6th of Philorth may have been a de facto Chief of Fraser,
> but wasn't titled such and thus couldn't abbreviate his suffix to "of that Ilk."
> 
> Apologies for all the errors!
> (And what has this to do with the Amarna Letters?  :-)
> James

Dear James,

Nothing at all, and thank you for a wonderful exposition [1] of the nom-
enclature [2] of Scottish clan names.

Are you by any chance a relation of [3] James P. Allen, the author of
several books on Egyptology?  This is his academic profile.

   https://vivo.brown.edu/display/jpallen


Best wishes, and happy studies of Egyptology in alt.usage.english!



[1] Is /exposition/ a common term, or another one now considered /Chat-
GPT vocabulary/?

[2] Is /nomenclature/ also the same?  These are two questions for alt.
usage.english.

[3] Unrelated to schemas in relational databases.  After all, alt.folk-
lore.computers needs to have something to discuss, and why not the re-
lational schemas of Scottish clan names?  Perhaps in I.B.M's. [4] D.B.2?
Or SQlite?  Or PostgreSQL?

[4] I'm taking several liberations [sic] with typography here.
-- 
Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com
https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:;

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#1150041 — Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew?

On Fri, 4 Sep 2026 12:52:28 +0800
Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:

> [1] Is /exposition/ a common term, or another one now considered
> /Chat- GPT vocabulary/?
> 
> [2] Is /nomenclature/ also the same?  These are two questions for alt.
> usage.english.

"Nomenclature" is considered technical, but still in active use.
"Exposition" is pretty common, though it's mostly used in the sense of
(dialogue the author is consciously using to establish information
about the background of their story;) the sense of (a methodical
presentation of a subject in all its aspects) is, AFAIK, mainly used in
a theological context these days.

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#1150072 — Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

On Fri, 04 Sep 2026 04:27:12 GMT, James Dow Allen
<user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:

>I'm probably wrong but when a surname is duplicated in Scotland it
>often denotes that the person is the Chief of the same-named Clan (or,
if Master instead of Chief, the chief's oldest son).
>
>Are the following  all essentially the same?
>- Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Clan Buchanan
>- Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Buchanan
>- Maurice Buchanan [9th] of Buchanan
>- Maurice Buchanan [9th] of That Ilk
>The optional ordinal number ("9th" in this example) shows how many prior
>Chiefs there were, and emphasizes that the person is a Chief.  But would
>Chiefdom be implicit from the "of" anyway?
>
>Instead of a Chief, the title-holder might be a Laird.
>Of course "of That Ilk" is used only when the Clan or Lairdship has
>the same name as the surname.
>Sir William Fraser, 6th of Philorth may have been a de facto Chief of Fraser,
>but wasn't titled such and thus couldn't abbreviate his suffix to "of that Ilk."

I'm no fundi on Scottish titles and social structure, but yes, I think
the chief of a clan would be the one most likely to live in a home
with the same name, so the chief the Buchanan clan would be most
likelyto live in the eponymous place, and so be the Buchanan of
Buchanan, or the Buchanan of that ilk.

When English-speaking people came to South Africa they thought the
social system of the Zulus was similar to that of the Highland Scots,
and so they used Scottish terminology to describe it -- chiefs, clans
etc.

For example the place where the Biyela clan lived was known as
kwaBiyela, and most of the people living there had the surname Biyela,
so the inhabitants of kwaBiyela could probably be quite properly known
as "Biyela of that Ilk". I at one time had a colleague and mentor
called Peter Biyela. He didn't live in kwaBiyela, so he wasn't of that
Ilk, but his ancestors may have been. On comparing family histories we
discovered that his grandfather and my great grandfather had fought on
opposite sides in the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879 and so could have
encountered each other on the battlefield. 


> Apologies for all the errors!
>(And what has this to do with the Amarna Letters?  :-)

I'm not sure. What do the Amarna letters have to do with English
usage?


-- 
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

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#1150098 — Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> posted:
> On Fri, 04 Sep 2026 04:27:12 GMT, James Dow Allen
> <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:
> 
> > ... when a surname is duplicated in Scotland it
> > often denotes that the person is the Chief of the same-named Clan (or,
> > if Master instead of Chief, the chief's oldest son).
> 
> I'm no fundi on Scottish titles and social structure, but yes, I think
> the chief of a clan would be the one most likely to live in a home
> with the same name, so the chief the Buchanan clan would be most
> likelyto live in the eponymous place, and so be the Buchanan of
> Buchanan, or the Buchanan of that ilk.

I don't think so.

Recall that the earliest European Kings were, for example, King of the Franks,
King of the French, King of the Romans, Lady of the English (the title Mathilda
used).  In other words they were King of a PEOPLE.  It was with the increasing
dominance of Christianity and the "Divine Right" of Kings that the titles
generally changed to be King of a TERRITORY.

Of course, that may seem irrelevant here, since we're speaking of Clan Chiefs
rather than Kings.  Lesser nobles were associated with places rather than
people long before the "Divine Right" transition.  BUT that did NOT
apply to Gaelic Clan Chiefs.  A Clan is specifically a group of PEOPLE
not a group of BUILDINGS.  Colin Mor Campbell was
 - Chief of Clan Campbell -- a people
 - Lord of Lochow (Loch Awe) -- a place
His ggg-grandson Duncan built Inveraray Castle - a residence for the Clan Chiefs.
It was Duncan's grandson Colin who first used the title Earl of Argyll (a
LARGE TERRITORY).  The Earls of Argyll were also Chiefs of Clan Campbell,
but felt no need to point this out.

As just one more example to punctuate the point the Chiefs of Clan Drummond
may have titled themselves "of That Ilk" (PEOPLE) in the 14th century
but when they came into possession of 2 pieces of LAND they were known
as the Drummond Lords of Cargill and/or Stobhall.

Thank you for your attention to this matter. :-) :-)  -- JDA

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#1150143 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?

On Sat, 05 Sep 2026 09:13:43 GMT, James Dow Allen wrote:

> Recall that the earliest European Kings were, for example, King of
> the Franks, King of the French, King of the Romans, Lady of the
> English (the title Mathilda used). In other words they were King of
> a PEOPLE. It was with the increasing dominance of Christianity and
> the "Divine Right" of Kings that the titles generally changed to be
> King of a TERRITORY.

That’s because the ancestors of modern Europeans started out as tribal
peoples, and only moved to setting up their own nation-states later.

Elsewhere in the Middle East, Egypt, Greece etc, rulers had been
rulers of nations for thousands of years already.

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#1149963 — Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> writes:
>On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 08:02:04 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 18:29:16 +0800
>>Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> side not for alt.usage.english, is "ilk" considered a common word, or
>>> one of the /ChatGPT vocabulary/?
>>
>>"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd say
>>if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not just some-
>>thing the chatbots dredge up.
>
>
>I disagree.  It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
>some politician "of that ilk".  In this county (USA), political
>discussions are very common.  

Not in alt.folklore.computers.  Please pay attention to cross
posting in the Newsgroups: header before replying.

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