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Groups > alt.os.linux > #51439 > unrolled thread

Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!

Started byNomen Nescio <noreply@mixnym.net>
First post2018-10-31 20:24 -0500
Last post2018-11-08 15:38 +0100
Articles 20 on this page of 42 — 16 participants

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Contents

  Here you go, Apple lovers!  Eat this! Nomen Nescio <noreply@mixnym.net> - 2018-10-31 20:24 -0500
    Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! NumbLock <789456123@0.com> - 2018-10-31 20:20 -0700
      Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-11-01 14:40 +0000
        Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2018-11-19 08:12 +0000
      Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2018-11-01 07:50 -0700
    Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2018-11-01 07:09 +0000
      Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2018-11-01 04:02 -0400
        Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2018-11-01 09:24 -0400
          Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2018-11-01 09:30 -0400
            Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Eric Stevens <eric.stevens@sum.co.nz> - 2018-11-02 11:46 +1300
              Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2018-11-01 19:06 -0400
              Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2018-11-02 08:42 +0000
                Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-11-02 13:02 +0000
                Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Eric Stevens <eric.stevens@sum.co.nz> - 2018-11-03 14:34 +1300
          Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-11-01 14:43 +0000
          Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2018-11-01 11:46 -0400
            Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2018-11-01 21:53 -0400
              Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2018-11-02 04:23 +0000
                Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2018-11-02 01:45 -0400
                Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2018-11-02 02:16 -0400
      Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Nomen Nescio <noreply@mixnym.net> - 2018-11-01 08:45 -0500
        Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2018-11-01 15:00 +0000
          Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-11-01 11:27 -0500
            Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Nomen Nescio <noreply@mixnym.net> - 2018-11-01 15:25 -0500
              Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2018-11-08 10:06 +0100
                Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2018-11-08 08:11 -0500
                  Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-11-08 08:37 -0600
                  Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-11-09 16:49 +0000
                    Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@WizardsTower.invalid> - 2018-11-09 15:25 -0600
                      Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2018-11-10 00:42 -0500
                Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Eric Stevens <eric.stevens@sum.co.nz> - 2018-11-09 13:56 +1300
            Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2018-11-01 22:04 -0400
              Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2018-11-02 06:41 +0000
                Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2018-11-02 04:20 -0400
                  Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2018-11-02 05:51 -0700
                    Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-11-02 19:47 +0000
                      Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Wolf K <wolfmac@sympatico.ca> - 2018-11-02 16:31 -0400
                        Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-11-02 21:14 +0000
                Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-11-02 13:06 +0000
                Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-11-02 07:19 -0500
              Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-11-02 07:15 -0500
            Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this! Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2018-11-08 15:38 +0100

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#51439 — Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!

FromNomen Nescio <noreply@mixnym.net>
Date2018-10-31 20:24 -0500
SubjectHere you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Message-ID<prdkl7$5hp$1@news.mixmin.net>
Why a Helium Leak Disabled Every iPhone in a Medical Facility

<https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/gye4aw/why-a-helium-leak-disabled-every-iphone-in-a-medical-facility>

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#51440 — Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!

FromNumbLock <789456123@0.com>
Date2018-10-31 20:20 -0700
SubjectRe: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Message-ID<prdrep$9s2$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#51439
On 10/31/2018 06:24 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> Why a Helium Leak Disabled Every iPhone in a Medical Facility
>
> <https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/gye4aw/why-a-helium-leak-disabled-every-iphone-in-a-medical-facility>

Was everyone was talking like chipmunks?

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#51449 — Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!

FromWilliam Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca>
Date2018-11-01 14:40 +0000
SubjectRe: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Message-ID<prf392$q9k$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#51440
On 2018-11-01, NumbLock <789456123@0.com> wrote:
> On 10/31/2018 06:24 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>> Why a Helium Leak Disabled Every iPhone in a Medical Facility
>>
>> <https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/gye4aw/why-a-helium-leak-disabled-every-iphone-in-a-medical-facility>
>
> Was everyone was talking like chipmunks?
>
That is just silly. To change the velocity of sound (which is what the
chipmunk voice is due to) requires a substantial fraction of the air be
Helium. In that case the problem would not have been Apple watches, the
problem would have been that everyone was passed out on the floor.
because there was not enough oxygen. 
Remember there was venting some of which leaked into the hospital. Ie
only a fraction of that 120 liters ended up in the atmosphere of the
hospital. And hopitals are typically very big buildings. Ie, the
fraction of He in the air was almost certainly at most a few percent.
Again, it is hard to see how that would have altered the frequency of
the mems by much. Maybe they are so sensitive to frequency changes.
Note that sticking a phone/watch into a bag and putting in He, would
have been a concentration of 50-100 % which is hardly the equivalent of
the hospital. 

This story sounds to me like and urban legend that has escaped from its
zoo.

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#51726 — Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!

FromAndy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
Date2018-11-19 08:12 +0000
SubjectRe: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Message-ID<g5f9k8FnfosU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#51449
William Unruh wrote:

> Nomen Nescio wrote:
>
>> Why a Helium Leak Disabled Every iPhone in a Medical Facility
>> <https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/gye4aw/why-a-helium-leak-disabled-every-iphone-in-a-medical-facility>
>
> That is just silly. To change the velocity of sound (which is what the
> chipmunk voice is due to) requires a substantial fraction of the air be
> Helium. 

Ben Kraznow's take is that it takes a 2% helium atmosphere to kill MEMS 
devices ...

<https://youtu.be/vvzWaVvB908>

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#51452 — Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!

FromBobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com>
Date2018-11-01 07:50 -0700
SubjectRe: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Message-ID<prf3s1$2cd$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#51440
On 10/31/18 8:20 PM, NumbLock wrote:
> On 10/31/2018 06:24 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>> Why a Helium Leak Disabled Every iPhone in a Medical Facility
>>
>> <https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/gye4aw/why-a-helium-leak-disabled-every-iphone-in-a-medical-facility> 
>>
> 
> Was everyone was talking like chipmunks?
> 
	Read the fine article.  Otherwise you are ignorant
and even worse, sound as though you are ignorant.
	Let us stop feeding a cross posting troll.
	bliss

-- 
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

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#51441 — Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!

FromAndy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
Date2018-11-01 07:09 +0000
SubjectRe: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Message-ID<g3vn5jFc84bU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#51439
Nomen Nescio wrote:

> Why a Helium Leak Disabled Every iPhone in a Medical Facility

Wonder if the Helium affected the MEMS barometers in non-Apple devices?

Maybe accelerometers, and compasses too, but I can't see why those 
couldn't be airtight.

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#51442 — Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!

Fromnospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date2018-11-01 04:02 -0400
SubjectRe: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Message-ID<011120180402308647%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to#51441
In article <g3vn5jFc84bU1@mid.individual.net>, Andy Burns
<usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> 
> Wonder if the Helium affected the MEMS barometers in non-Apple devices?

of course. they're standard parts, and it's not exactly a real world
risk factor anyway.

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#51444 — Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!

FromPaul <nospam@needed.invalid>
Date2018-11-01 09:24 -0400
SubjectRe: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Message-ID<preupu$34p$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#51442
nospam wrote:
> In article <g3vn5jFc84bU1@mid.individual.net>, Andy Burns
> <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> 
>> Wonder if the Helium affected the MEMS barometers in non-Apple devices?
> 
> of course. they're standard parts, and it's not exactly a real world
> risk factor anyway.

Yeah, when my $1000 phone acts up, I just
flush it down the toilet.

The part that amazes me, is how quickly the
helium seems to incapacitate the phone. It's
like there's no seal at all around these things.

They could have designed a free-wheeling backup
oscillator to take over from the MEMS when it
takes a snooze. It didn't have to fail that
way. They could also gate off the free-wheeling
oscillator until it's needed.

    Paul

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#51445 — Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!

Fromnospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date2018-11-01 09:30 -0400
SubjectRe: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Message-ID<011120180930135575%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to#51444
In article <preupu$34p$1@dont-email.me>, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

> >> Wonder if the Helium affected the MEMS barometers in non-Apple devices?
> > 
> > of course. they're standard parts, and it's not exactly a real world
> > risk factor anyway.
> 
> Yeah, when my $1000 phone acts up, I just
> flush it down the toilet.

no need to do that.

> The part that amazes me, is how quickly the
> helium seems to incapacitate the phone. It's
> like there's no seal at all around these things.

there are seals for liquid incursion, so if you do drop it in the
toilet (which *is* surprisingly common), it will not fail.

there is no reason to seal a phone against helium. 

> They could have designed a free-wheeling backup
> oscillator to take over from the MEMS when it
> takes a snooze. It didn't have to fail that
> way. They could also gate off the free-wheeling
> oscillator until it's needed.

no point for what is an extreme edge case.

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#51463 — Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!

FromEric Stevens <eric.stevens@sum.co.nz>
Date2018-11-02 11:46 +1300
SubjectRe: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Message-ID<0d0ntdlj72rogk1ucu7kdl8fae5bqhq9kr@4ax.com>
In reply to#51445
On Thu, 01 Nov 2018 09:30:13 -0400, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>In article <preupu$34p$1@dont-email.me>, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>> >> Wonder if the Helium affected the MEMS barometers in non-Apple devices?
>> > 
>> > of course. they're standard parts, and it's not exactly a real world
>> > risk factor anyway.
>> 
>> Yeah, when my $1000 phone acts up, I just
>> flush it down the toilet.
>
>no need to do that.
>
>> The part that amazes me, is how quickly the
>> helium seems to incapacitate the phone. It's
>> like there's no seal at all around these things.
>
>there are seals for liquid incursion, so if you do drop it in the
>toilet (which *is* surprisingly common), it will not fail.
>
>there is no reason to seal a phone against helium. 

Besides, its almost impossible. For practical purposes helium is the
ultimate leak-test fluid.
>
>> They could have designed a free-wheeling backup
>> oscillator to take over from the MEMS when it
>> takes a snooze. It didn't have to fail that
>> way. They could also gate off the free-wheeling
>> oscillator until it's needed.
>
>no point for what is an extreme edge case.
-- 

Regards,

Eric Stevens

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#51464 — Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!

Fromnospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
Date2018-11-01 19:06 -0400
SubjectRe: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Message-ID<011120181906345549%nospam@nospam.invalid>
In reply to#51463
In article <0d0ntdlj72rogk1ucu7kdl8fae5bqhq9kr@4ax.com>, Eric Stevens
<eric.stevens@sum.co.nz> wrote:

> >> The part that amazes me, is how quickly the
> >> helium seems to incapacitate the phone. It's
> >> like there's no seal at all around these things.
> >
> >there are seals for liquid incursion, so if you do drop it in the
> >toilet (which *is* surprisingly common), it will not fail.
> >
> >there is no reason to seal a phone against helium. 
> 
> Besides, its almost impossible. For practical purposes helium is the
> ultimate leak-test fluid.

that too.

although wd/hgst did do it for hard drives...

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#51476 — Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!

FromChris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
Date2018-11-02 08:42 +0000
SubjectRe: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Message-ID<prh2lj$km4$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#51463
Eric Stevens <eric.stevens@sum.co.nz> wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Nov 2018 09:30:13 -0400, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
> wrote:
> 
>> In article <preupu$34p$1@dont-email.me>, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
>> wrote:
>> there are seals for liquid incursion, so if you do drop it in the
>> toilet (which *is* surprisingly common), it will not fail.
>> 
>> there is no reason to seal a phone against helium. 
> 
> Besides, its almost impossible. For practical purposes helium is the
> ultimate leak-test fluid.

I very much doubt that any phone would survive being dropped in liquid He. 

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#51481 — Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!

FromWilliam Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca>
Date2018-11-02 13:02 +0000
SubjectRe: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Message-ID<prhht1$rh1$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#51476
On 2018-11-02, Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
> Eric Stevens <eric.stevens@sum.co.nz> wrote:
>> On Thu, 01 Nov 2018 09:30:13 -0400, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> In article <preupu$34p$1@dont-email.me>, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>> there are seals for liquid incursion, so if you do drop it in the
>>> toilet (which *is* surprisingly common), it will not fail.
>>> 
>>> there is no reason to seal a phone against helium. 
>> 
>> Besides, its almost impossible. For practical purposes helium is the
>> ultimate leak-test fluid.
>
> I very much doubt that any phone would survive being dropped in liquid He. 

A gas is also a fluid.
>
>

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#51502 — Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!

FromEric Stevens <eric.stevens@sum.co.nz>
Date2018-11-03 14:34 +1300
SubjectRe: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Message-ID<jguptd5kjjlv60qsrm3ja3gktm4709tnkk@4ax.com>
In reply to#51476
On Fri, 2 Nov 2018 08:42:27 -0000 (UTC), Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Eric Stevens <eric.stevens@sum.co.nz> wrote:
>> On Thu, 01 Nov 2018 09:30:13 -0400, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> In article <preupu$34p$1@dont-email.me>, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>> there are seals for liquid incursion, so if you do drop it in the
>>> toilet (which *is* surprisingly common), it will not fail.
>>> 
>>> there is no reason to seal a phone against helium. 
>> 
>> Besides, its almost impossible. For practical purposes helium is the
>> ultimate leak-test fluid.
>
>I very much doubt that any phone would survive being dropped in liquid He. 
>
I wasn't suggesting that!   :-)

Many years ago I used to be involved in vacuum-insulated pressure
vessels - like a large thermos bottle. It's very difficult to get
absolutely leak-proof welds in steel and the way the vacuum jackets on
the vessels were tested was by filling them with helium gas. We would
then go round with sniffers looking for traces of leaks.

Hydrogen is the only thing better able to find leaks than helium.
Under the right circumstances, hydrogen can even permeate its way
through solid steel.
-- 

Regards,

Eric Stevens

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#51450 — Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!

FromWilliam Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca>
Date2018-11-01 14:43 +0000
SubjectRe: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Message-ID<prf3el$q9k$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#51444
On 2018-11-01, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> nospam wrote:
>> In article <g3vn5jFc84bU1@mid.individual.net>, Andy Burns
>> <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>> 
>>> Wonder if the Helium affected the MEMS barometers in non-Apple devices?
>> 
>> of course. they're standard parts, and it's not exactly a real world
>> risk factor anyway.
>
> Yeah, when my $1000 phone acts up, I just
> flush it down the toilet.
>
> The part that amazes me, is how quickly the
> helium seems to incapacitate the phone. It's
> like there's no seal at all around these things.
>
> They could have designed a free-wheeling backup
> oscillator to take over from the MEMS when it
> takes a snooze. It didn't have to fail that
> way. They could also gate off the free-wheeling
> oscillator until it's needed.

The clock is ALWAYS needed. And the backup oscillator would have
completely destroyed the value of the mems oscilaltor int ehfirst place
(its value is size. It is like riding a moped and asking why your do not
have a Mac Truck as a backup if the moped fails)

>
>     Paul

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#51454 — Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!

FromJean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net>
Date2018-11-01 11:46 -0400
SubjectRe: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Message-ID<prf74b0d2g@news2.newsguy.com>
In reply to#51444
On 11/1/18 9:24 AM, Paul wrote:
> The part that amazes me, is how quickly the
> helium seems to incapacitate the phone. It's
> like there's no seal at all around these things.

When I had to design stuff to a certain military specification, some
things had to be hermetically sealed. Helium leak detectors are used for
this because helium can penetrate where air cannot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_mass_spectrometer

-- 
  .~.  Jean-David Beyer          Registered Linux User 85642.
  /V\  PGP-Key:166D840A 0C610C8B Registered Machine  1935521.
 /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey    http://linuxcounter.net
 ^^-^^ 11:40:01 up 22 days, 19:23, 2 users, load average: 5.98, 6.01, 5.75

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#51467 — Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!

FromPaul <nospam@needed.invalid>
Date2018-11-01 21:53 -0400
SubjectRe: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Message-ID<prgamm$atn$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#51454
Jean-David Beyer wrote:
> On 11/1/18 9:24 AM, Paul wrote:
>> The part that amazes me, is how quickly the
>> helium seems to incapacitate the phone. It's
>> like there's no seal at all around these things.
> 
> When I had to design stuff to a certain military specification, some
> things had to be hermetically sealed. Helium leak detectors are used for
> this because helium can penetrate where air cannot.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_mass_spectrometer
> 

https://www.sitime.com/support/faqs

    Q: How effective is the hermetic seal of MEMS oscillators??

    A; One of the key elements enabling extremely stable MEMS resonators
       is SiTime's EpiSeal process which hermetically seals the resonators
       during wafer processing, eliminating any need for hermetically sealed
       ceramic packaging. SiTime's EpiSeal resonator is impervious to the
       highest concentration elements in the atmosphere, nitrogen and oxygen,
       and therefore acts as a perfect seal.

       Previous generations of EpiSeal resonators may have been impacted by
       large concentrations of small-molecule gas. <===

       Newer EpiSeal resonators are impervious to all small-molecule gases.
       Please contact SiTime in case you are planning to use a SiTime device
       in large concentrations of small-molecule gas, so that we can recommend
       an appropriate, immune part.

:-)

The devices can also apparently be sensitive to light.
They recommend using a glob-top over the device, to prevent
IR from interfering with device operation. The device itself
is small, so the polymer top layer is thin.

Sample datasheet:

https://www.sitime.com/datasheet/SiT1569

    Paul

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#51470 — Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!

FromJasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz>
Date2018-11-02 04:23 +0000
SubjectRe: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Message-ID<prgjfs$ka1$1@gonzo.alcatraz>
In reply to#51467
On 2018-11-02, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> Jean-David Beyer wrote:
>> On 11/1/18 9:24 AM, Paul wrote:
>>> The part that amazes me, is how quickly the
>>> helium seems to incapacitate the phone. It's
>>> like there's no seal at all around these things.
>> 
>> When I had to design stuff to a certain military specification, some
>> things had to be hermetically sealed. Helium leak detectors are used for
>> this because helium can penetrate where air cannot.
>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_mass_spectrometer
>> 
>
> https://www.sitime.com/support/faqs
>
>     Q: How effective is the hermetic seal of MEMS oscillators??
>
>     A; One of the key elements enabling extremely stable MEMS resonators
>        is SiTime's EpiSeal process which hermetically seals the resonators
>        during wafer processing, eliminating any need for hermetically sealed
>        ceramic packaging. SiTime's EpiSeal resonator is impervious to the
>        highest concentration elements in the atmosphere, nitrogen and oxygen,
>        and therefore acts as a perfect seal.
>
>        Previous generations of EpiSeal resonators may have been impacted by
>        large concentrations of small-molecule gas. <===
>
>        Newer EpiSeal resonators are impervious to all small-molecule gases.
>        Please contact SiTime in case you are planning to use a SiTime device
>        in large concentrations of small-molecule gas, so that we can recommend
>        an appropriate, immune part.

 Helium is not small-molecule, it monatomic. I don't know if they are
relying on that technicality or not.

-- 
  When I tried casting out nines I made a hash of it.

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#51471 — Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!

FromPaul <nospam@needed.invalid>
Date2018-11-02 01:45 -0400
SubjectRe: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Message-ID<prgo8t$tcv$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#51470
Jasen Betts wrote:
> On 2018-11-02, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>> Jean-David Beyer wrote:
>>> On 11/1/18 9:24 AM, Paul wrote:
>>>> The part that amazes me, is how quickly the
>>>> helium seems to incapacitate the phone. It's
>>>> like there's no seal at all around these things.
>>> When I had to design stuff to a certain military specification, some
>>> things had to be hermetically sealed. Helium leak detectors are used for
>>> this because helium can penetrate where air cannot.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_mass_spectrometer
>>>
>> https://www.sitime.com/support/faqs
>>
>>     Q: How effective is the hermetic seal of MEMS oscillators??
>>
>>     A; One of the key elements enabling extremely stable MEMS resonators
>>        is SiTime's EpiSeal process which hermetically seals the resonators
>>        during wafer processing, eliminating any need for hermetically sealed
>>        ceramic packaging. SiTime's EpiSeal resonator is impervious to the
>>        highest concentration elements in the atmosphere, nitrogen and oxygen,
>>        and therefore acts as a perfect seal.
>>
>>        Previous generations of EpiSeal resonators may have been impacted by
>>        large concentrations of small-molecule gas. <===
>>
>>        Newer EpiSeal resonators are impervious to all small-molecule gases.
>>        Please contact SiTime in case you are planning to use a SiTime device
>>        in large concentrations of small-molecule gas, so that we can recommend
>>        an appropriate, immune part.
> 
>  Helium is not small-molecule, it monatomic. I don't know if they are
> relying on that technicality or not.
> 

Yes, only the He2 causes a problem :-)

They were probably thinking of a hydrogen H2 leak.
And you have more to worry about than your oscillator
if that happens.

    Paul

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#51472 — Re: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!

FromPaul <nospam@needed.invalid>
Date2018-11-02 02:16 -0400
SubjectRe: Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Message-ID<prgq40$5ej$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#51470
Jasen Betts wrote:
> On 2018-11-02, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>> Jean-David Beyer wrote:
>>> On 11/1/18 9:24 AM, Paul wrote:
>>>> The part that amazes me, is how quickly the
>>>> helium seems to incapacitate the phone. It's
>>>> like there's no seal at all around these things.
>>> When I had to design stuff to a certain military specification, some
>>> things had to be hermetically sealed. Helium leak detectors are used for
>>> this because helium can penetrate where air cannot.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_mass_spectrometer

"Output Drifting of Vacuum Packaged MEMS Sensors
  Due to Room Temperature Helium Exposure"

https://file.scirp.org/pdf/JST_2013122009560886.pdf

    Kim et al. [9] found that helium and hydrogen could permeate
    CVD (Chemical Vapor Deposition) oxide sealed MEMS resonators
    at elevated temperatures resulting in a degradation of Q values.
    Annealing in a hydrogen or helium ambient at 170°C - 400°C
    was found to increase microcavity pressure, as did reliability
    testing at 100°C in air due to the 5 ppm helium present in the
    atmosphere. The gradual cavity pressure increase was not observed
    after operating in air 3000 hours at room temperature.

    By sealing the CVD oxide plugs with an aluminum capping layer
    this group could prevent hydrogen permeation into the CVD
    sealed microcavities at elevated temperatures.

    -------

    Vacuum packaged resonating MEMS gyroscopes and voltage controlled
    oscillators may also have a long-term drift problem when operated
    in air if chip-scale packaging methods are employed. This has been
    demonstrated by Kim with CVD sealed devices [9]. Enclosing these
    devices in ceramic or metal packages with Kovar lids, like those
    shown in Figure 2, can be used to prevent this long-term reliability
    issue.

I think the person who wrote that article, is advocating taking
all the "fun" out of using MEMS.

    Paul

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