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Groups > alt.os.linux.debian > #7552 > unrolled thread

version control systems

Started bycrankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid>
First post2015-12-28 04:50 -0700
Last post2015-12-30 20:33 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 54 — 9 participants

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Contents

  version control systems crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-12-28 04:50 -0700
    Re: version control systems "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2015-12-28 13:56 +0100
    Re: version control systems John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2015-12-28 08:03 -0600
      Re: version control systems crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-12-28 19:30 -0700
        Re: version control systems John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2015-12-28 21:31 -0600
          Re: version control systems crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-12-29 06:59 -0700
            Re: version control systems John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2015-12-29 08:47 -0600
              Re: version control systems Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2015-12-29 19:42 -0500
              Re: version control systems crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-12-30 03:01 -0700
                Re: version control systems mm0fmf <none@mailinator.com> - 2015-12-30 10:35 +0000
                  Re: version control systems crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-12-30 04:41 -0700
                    Re: version control systems Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2015-12-30 20:19 +0000
                      Re: version control systems crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-12-31 02:28 -0700
                        Re: version control systems Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2015-12-31 20:46 +0000
                          Re: version control systems crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-12-31 23:12 -0700
                            Re: version control systems Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-01-01 11:40 -0500
                              Re: version control systems Mark Carroll <mtbc@ixod.org> - 2016-01-01 17:16 +0000
                                Re: version control systems Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-01-01 13:37 -0500
                              Re: version control systems crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-01-01 15:01 -0700
                                Re: version control systems Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-01-01 19:19 -0500
                                Re: version control systems Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2016-01-02 02:45 +0000
                                  Re: version control systems crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-01-02 01:33 -0700
                                Re: version control systems Kirk_Von_Rockstein <Kirk_Von_Rockstein@nowhere.invalid> - 2016-01-04 00:55 +0000
                                  Re: version control systems crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-01-04 03:38 -0700
                                    Re: version control systems Mark Carroll <mtbc@ixod.org> - 2016-01-04 12:19 +0000
                                      Re: version control systems crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-01-04 11:19 -0700
                Re: version control systems Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2015-12-30 05:58 -0500
                  Re: version control systems crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-12-30 04:50 -0700
                    Re: version control systems Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2015-12-30 08:02 -0500
                      Re: version control systems crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-12-30 06:43 -0700
                        Re: version control systems mm0fmf <none@mailinator.com> - 2015-12-30 14:42 +0000
                          Re: version control systems crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-12-30 12:14 -0700
                Re: version control systems John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2015-12-30 07:30 -0600
                  Re: version control systems crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-12-30 06:55 -0700
        Re: version control systems "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2015-12-29 09:20 +0100
          Re: version control systems crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-12-29 07:03 -0700
          Re: version control systems John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2015-12-29 08:34 -0600
            Re: version control systems crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-12-30 03:17 -0700
              Re: version control systems Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2015-12-30 05:59 -0500
                Re: version control systems crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-12-30 04:53 -0700
                Re: version control systems Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2015-12-30 12:07 +0000
                  Re: version control systems crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-12-30 05:20 -0700
                    Re: version control systems Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2015-12-30 08:05 -0500
                      Re: version control systems crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-12-30 06:45 -0700
                      Re: version control systems Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2015-12-30 13:59 +0000
                    Re: version control systems John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2015-12-30 08:28 -0600
                      Re: version control systems crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-12-30 12:21 -0700
              Re: version control systems John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2015-12-30 07:45 -0600
                Re: version control systems John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2015-12-30 08:30 -0600
                  Re: version control systems Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2015-12-30 14:28 -0500
                Re: version control systems Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2015-12-30 14:28 -0500
              Re: version control systems John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2015-12-30 08:15 -0600
                Re: version control systems crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-12-30 12:53 -0700
                  Re: version control systems mm0fmf <none@mailinator.com> - 2015-12-30 20:33 +0000

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#7663

FromJasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz>
Date2016-01-02 02:45 +0000
Message-ID<n67dl2$df7$2@gonzo.alcatraz>
In reply to#7661
On 2016-01-01, crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> I don't know what values "rare" might have, but I do know that for 2 of 
> my 3 laptops, it was necessary to manually install the correct driver 
> and firmware.  Both were proprietary (Broadcom), and the installer never 
> even asked if I wanted to enable a non-free repository.

Are you running the installer in expert mode? that enables all sorts
of neat features.

-- 
  \_(ツ)_

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#7665

Fromcrankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date2016-01-02 01:33 -0700
Message-ID<n681r0$2j6$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#7663
Jasen Betts wrote:

> On 2016-01-01, crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> I don't know what values "rare" might have, but I do know that for 2
>> of my 3 laptops, it was necessary to manually install the correct
>> driver
>> and firmware.  Both were proprietary (Broadcom), and the installer
>> never even asked if I wanted to enable a non-free repository.
> 
> Are you running the installer in expert mode? that enables all sorts
> of neat features.

Doesn't that impress you as kind of backwards?  Helping non-experts to 
obtain/install the necessary drivers is something only available in 
"expert mode"?  Go figure. <g>

-- 
http://totally-portable-software.blogspot.com
  [Sun Nov 22: "Total Portability is not binary"]

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#7676

FromKirk_Von_Rockstein <Kirk_Von_Rockstein@nowhere.invalid>
Date2016-01-04 00:55 +0000
Message-ID<n6cft4$m20$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#7661
On 2016-01-01, crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
<snip>
> According to what I've picked up over the airwaves, you have never done 
> a sid install; there *are* no sid ISO images built, so you installed 
> something else then upgraded a copy of it to sid, nyet?
<snip>

Hey crank, On the SID ISO...

http://news.siduction.org/2015/12/release-notes-for-2015-1-dev-release/
http://forum.siduction.org/index.php?page=download-mirrors-en

I think it is what you been looking for...

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#7681

Fromcrankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date2016-01-04 03:38 -0700
Message-ID<n6dhtd$c68$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#7676
Kirk_Von_Rockstein wrote:

> On 2016-01-01, crankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> <snip>
>> According to what I've picked up over the airwaves, you have never
>> done a sid install; there *are* no sid ISO images built, so you
>> installed something else then upgraded a copy of it to sid, nyet?
> <snip>
> 
> Hey crank, On the SID ISO...
> 
> http://news.siduction.org/2015/12/release-notes-for-2015-1-dev-release/
> http://forum.siduction.org/index.php?page=download-mirrors-en
> 
> I think it is what you been looking for...

Interesting, thanks for mentioning it.  OTOH the stretch netinst works 
better than the DVD1 ISO and I already have that (mostly) installed, so 
it's likely that I'll just copy it to my other machines and then change 
the repos and update to sid.  If I'd known about siduction earlier it 
might have saved me some frustration but it still would be a big 
download compared to the netinst.  I'll stick with pure Debian (what's 
the "Deb" part from anyway?) instead of switching horses just now, if I 
was to switch from plain-old Debian at this point it would probably be 
toward Mageia or something else, Gentoo maybe, or Hurd if that's ready 
this year. <g>

-- 
http://totally-portable-software.blogspot.com
  [Sun Nov 22: "Total Portability is not binary"]

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#7683

FromMark Carroll <mtbc@ixod.org>
Date2016-01-04 12:19 +0000
Message-ID<87y4c5zge7.fsf@ixod.org>
In reply to#7681
On 04 Jan 2016, crankypuss wrote:
(snip)
> Interesting, thanks for mentioning it.  OTOH the stretch netinst works 
> better than the DVD1 ISO and I already have that (mostly) installed, so 
> it's likely that I'll just copy it to my other machines and then change 
> the repos and update to sid.

Ah, yes, I've usually used the netinst, so that might have helped me.

> I'll stick with pure Debian (what's the "Deb" part from anyway?)

https://wiki.debian.org/DebianName has "Debra was Ian's girlfriend".
They were married for some years.

(snip)
> or Hurd if that's ready this year. <g>

Heh, I've been waiting for years. Maybe someday! More recently I had
half an eye on GuixSD too in case that got further with Hurd first.
Perhaps that Linux works so well means reduces any need for Hurd.

-- Mark

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#7687

Fromcrankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date2016-01-04 11:19 -0700
Message-ID<n6ecub$lli$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#7683
Mark Carroll wrote:

> On 04 Jan 2016, crankypuss wrote:
> (snip)
>> Interesting, thanks for mentioning it.  OTOH the stretch netinst
>> works better than the DVD1 ISO and I already have that (mostly)
>> installed, so it's likely that I'll just copy it to my other machines
>> and then change the repos and update to sid.
> 
> Ah, yes, I've usually used the netinst, so that might have helped me.
> 
>> I'll stick with pure Debian (what's the "Deb" part from anyway?)
> 
> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianName has "Debra was Ian's girlfriend".
> They were married for some years.

Naming things is difficult.

> (snip)
>> or Hurd if that's ready this year. <g>
> 
> Heh, I've been waiting for years. Maybe someday! More recently I had
> half an eye on GuixSD too in case that got further with Hurd first.
> Perhaps that Linux works so well means reduces any need for Hurd.

Maybe everybody's so busy fixing symptoms that nobody's left to fix the 
problems that cause them.  What would I know, I just rode in on last 
night's turnip truck. <g>

-- 
http://totally-portable-software.blogspot.com
  [Sun Nov 22: "Total Portability is not binary"]

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#7606

FromChris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us>
Date2015-12-30 05:58 -0500
Message-ID<n60daq$10e$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#7603
crankypuss wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> John Hasler wrote:
>
>> crankypuss writes:
>>> So "the archive" is basically a website with custom software.
>> 
>> The Debian system is a large, complex, world-wide network.  The
>> archive is the database from which the package management software on
>> your
>> machine fetches packages.  It has many mirrors around the world, most
>> not under the direct control of Debian.  Digital signatures are used
>> to
>> maintain security.  The Security archive is an exception: it is never
>> mirrored.
>> 
>> Behind the archive is some truly amazing custom software developed
>> over the life of Debian.
>
> LOL, I've seen some software that was "truly amazing" in the sense that 
> it worked at all. <g>
>
> I wonder why we still have so many different version control systems; 

After a certain point, a rewrite is easier than wedging in some new
functionality?

Companies thinking they have a better mousetrap and can make some money on
it?

A noted developer who believed that Subversion was shit?

> they're all about doing one conceptually-simple thing, and even though 
> the range of their scaling is large, we ought to have been able to have 
> figured out the general case by now.

I can't decide if you're a lumper or a hair-splitter :-D

-- 
The naked truth of it is, I have no shirt.
		-- William Shakespeare, "Love's Labour's Lost"

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#7611

Fromcrankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date2015-12-30 04:50 -0700
Message-ID<n60g9s$dbb$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#7606
Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> crankypuss wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
> 
>> John Hasler wrote:
>>
>>> crankypuss writes:
>>>> So "the archive" is basically a website with custom software.
>>> 
>>> The Debian system is a large, complex, world-wide network.  The
>>> archive is the database from which the package management software
>>> on your
>>> machine fetches packages.  It has many mirrors around the world,
>>> most
>>> not under the direct control of Debian.  Digital signatures are used
>>> to
>>> maintain security.  The Security archive is an exception: it is
>>> never mirrored.
>>> 
>>> Behind the archive is some truly amazing custom software developed
>>> over the life of Debian.
>>
>> LOL, I've seen some software that was "truly amazing" in the sense
>> that it worked at all. <g>
>>
>> I wonder why we still have so many different version control systems;
> 
> After a certain point, a rewrite is easier than wedging in some new
> functionality?

That's entirely true imo, and it's also proof of-itself that the 
mechanisms we use to express meaning are insufficiently developed in the 
sense of not being abstracted enough to obviate the need for wedging-in.

> Companies thinking they have a better mousetrap and can make some
> money on it?

Greed is something one can rely on to obstruct real progress, that's why 
demonetization is something we ought to do on purpose instead of just 
letting the paperless economy fall down around us then realizing it 
wasn't necessary to begin with.

> A noted developer who believed that Subversion was shit?

I missed that episode of The Drama Queen Show, details?  I know nothing 
about any of the "modern" control systems, they may *all* be shit for 
all I know.  The last [non-homegrown] version control system I've used 
is Microsoft Visual Source Safe back in the early '90s, and *it* was 
certainly... somewhat less than perfect.

>> they're all about doing one conceptually-simple thing, and even
>> though the range of their scaling is large, we ought to have been
>> able to have figured out the general case by now.
> 
> I can't decide if you're a lumper or a hair-splitter :-D

If you abstract sufficiently it necessitates extreme precision, duh? <G>

-- 
http://totally-portable-software.blogspot.com
  [Sun Nov 22: "Total Portability is not binary"]

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#7615

FromChris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us>
Date2015-12-30 08:02 -0500
Message-ID<n60kkq$pkj$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#7611
crankypuss wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> A noted developer who believed that Subversion was shit?
>
> I missed that episode of The Drama Queen Show, details?

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idLyobOhtO4

> I know nothing 
> about any of the "modern" control systems, they may *all* be shit for 
> all I know.  The last [non-homegrown] version control system I've used 
> is Microsoft Visual Source Safe back in the early '90s, and *it* was 
> certainly... somewhat less than perfect.

The follow on, Team Foundation, broke the build process of one of our
dev groups, a few years back.

They ended up migrating to another wonderful product, MSBuild (Microsoft
innovates Apache Ant).

>>> they're all about doing one conceptually-simple thing, and even
>>> though the range of their scaling is large, we ought to have been
>>> able to have figured out the general case by now.
>> 
>> I can't decide if you're a lumper or a hair-splitter :-D
>
> If you abstract sufficiently it necessitates extreme precision, duh? <G>

I thought extreme precision was merely a tool for trolls!

-- 
Q:	How many lawyers does it take to change a light bulb?
A:	Whereas the party of the first part, also known as "Lawyer", and the
party of the second part, also known as "Light Bulb", do hereby and forthwith
agree to a transaction wherein the party of the second part shall be removed
from the current position as a result of failure to perform previously agreed
upon duties, i.e., the lighting, elucidation, and otherwise illumination of
the area ranging from the front (north) door, through the entryway, terminating
at an area just inside the primary living area, demarcated by the beginning of
the carpet, any spillover illumination being at the option of the party of the
second part and not required by the aforementioned agreement between the
parties.
	The aforementioned removal transaction shall include, but not be
limited to, the following.  The party of the first part shall, with or without
elevation at his option, by means of a chair, stepstool, ladder or any other
means of elevation, grasp the party of the second part and rotate the party
of the second part in a counter-clockwise direction, this point being tendered
non-negotiable.  Upon reaching a point where the party of the second part
becomes fully detached from the receptacle, the party of the first part shall
have the option of disposing of the party of the second part in a manner
consistent with all relevant and applicable local, state and federal statutes.
Once separation and disposal have been achieved, the party of the first part
shall have the option of beginning installation.  Aforesaid installation shall
occur in a manner consistent with the reverse of the procedures described in
step one of this self-same document, being careful to note that the rotation
should occur in a clockwise direction, this point also being non-negotiable.
The above described steps may be performed, at the option of the party of the
first part, by any or all agents authorized by him, the objective being to
produce the most possible revenue for the Partnership.

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#7618

Fromcrankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date2015-12-30 06:43 -0700
Message-ID<n60msa$3lq$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#7615
Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> crankypuss wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
> 
>> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>
>>> A noted developer who believed that Subversion was shit?
>>
>> I missed that episode of The Drama Queen Show, details?
> 
>    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idLyobOhtO4

Sorry, I don't do videos.  Metered broadband.

>> I know nothing
>> about any of the "modern" control systems, they may *all* be shit for
>> all I know.  The last [non-homegrown] version control system I've
>> used is Microsoft Visual Source Safe back in the early '90s, and *it*
>> was certainly... somewhat less than perfect.
> 
> The follow on, Team Foundation, broke the build process of one of our
> dev groups, a few years back.
> 
> They ended up migrating to another wonderful product, MSBuild
> (Microsoft innovates Apache Ant).

We here in the 'States live in a plutocracy billed as a representative 
republic and commonly believed to be a democracy.

>>>> they're all about doing one conceptually-simple thing, and even
>>>> though the range of their scaling is large, we ought to have been
>>>> able to have figured out the general case by now.
>>> 
>>> I can't decide if you're a lumper or a hair-splitter :-D
>>
>> If you abstract sufficiently it necessitates extreme precision, duh?
>> <G>
> 
> I thought extreme precision was merely a tool for trolls!

"In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows 
discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by 
posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online 
community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the 
deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or 
of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion,[3] often for their 
own amusement."
	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll


I wonder if there's a corresponding word to describe those of us who 
post potentially-inflammatory comments with the intent of generating 
sufficiently passionate discussion to instigate actual change.  If so, 
the same word would doubtless have an antipathetic definition in for-
profit corporate dictionaries.

-- 
http://totally-portable-software.blogspot.com
  [Sun Nov 22: "Total Portability is not binary"]

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#7626

Frommm0fmf <none@mailinator.com>
Date2015-12-30 14:42 +0000
Message-ID<V3Sgy.542379$JF6.420930@fx39.am4>
In reply to#7618
On 30/12/2015 13:43, crankypuss wrote:
> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> crankypuss wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>
>>> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>>
>>>> A noted developer who believed that Subversion was shit?
>>>
>>> I missed that episode of The Drama Queen Show, details?
>>
>>     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idLyobOhtO4
>
> Sorry, I don't do videos.  Metered broadband.
>
>>> I know nothing
>>> about any of the "modern" control systems, they may *all* be shit for
>>> all I know.  The last [non-homegrown] version control system I've
>>> used is Microsoft Visual Source Safe back in the early '90s, and *it*
>>> was certainly... somewhat less than perfect.
>>
>> The follow on, Team Foundation, broke the build process of one of our
>> dev groups, a few years back.
>>
>> They ended up migrating to another wonderful product, MSBuild
>> (Microsoft innovates Apache Ant).
>
> We here in the 'States live in a plutocracy billed as a representative
> republic and commonly believed to be a democracy.
>
>>>>> they're all about doing one conceptually-simple thing, and even
>>>>> though the range of their scaling is large, we ought to have been
>>>>> able to have figured out the general case by now.
>>>>
>>>> I can't decide if you're a lumper or a hair-splitter :-D
>>>
>>> If you abstract sufficiently it necessitates extreme precision, duh?
>>> <G>
>>
>> I thought extreme precision was merely a tool for trolls!
>
> "In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows
> discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by
> posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online
> community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the
> deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or
> of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion,[3] often for their
> own amusement."
> 	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
>
>
> I wonder if there's a corresponding word to describe those of us who
> post potentially-inflammatory comments with the intent of generating
> sufficiently passionate discussion to instigate actual change.  If so,
> the same word would doubtless have an antipathetic definition in for-
> profit corporate dictionaries.
>

Bellend?

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#7627

Fromcrankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date2015-12-30 12:14 -0700
Message-ID<n61a9l$e21$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#7626
mm0fmf wrote:

> On 30/12/2015 13:43, crankypuss wrote:
>> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>
>>> crankypuss wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>>
>>>> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> A noted developer who believed that Subversion was shit?
>>>>
>>>> I missed that episode of The Drama Queen Show, details?
>>>
>>>     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idLyobOhtO4
>>
>> Sorry, I don't do videos.  Metered broadband.
>>
>>>> I know nothing
>>>> about any of the "modern" control systems, they may *all* be shit
>>>> for
>>>> all I know.  The last [non-homegrown] version control system I've
>>>> used is Microsoft Visual Source Safe back in the early '90s, and
>>>> *it* was certainly... somewhat less than perfect.
>>>
>>> The follow on, Team Foundation, broke the build process of one of
>>> our dev groups, a few years back.
>>>
>>> They ended up migrating to another wonderful product, MSBuild
>>> (Microsoft innovates Apache Ant).
>>
>> We here in the 'States live in a plutocracy billed as a
>> representative republic and commonly believed to be a democracy.
>>
>>>>>> they're all about doing one conceptually-simple thing, and even
>>>>>> though the range of their scaling is large, we ought to have been
>>>>>> able to have figured out the general case by now.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't decide if you're a lumper or a hair-splitter :-D
>>>>
>>>> If you abstract sufficiently it necessitates extreme precision,
>>>> duh? <G>
>>>
>>> I thought extreme precision was merely a tool for trolls!
>>
>> "In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows
>> discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by
>> posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an
>> online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog)
>> with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional
>> response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion,[3]
>> often for their own amusement."
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
>>
>>
>> I wonder if there's a corresponding word to describe those of us who
>> post potentially-inflammatory comments with the intent of generating
>> sufficiently passionate discussion to instigate actual change.  If
>> so, the same word would doubtless have an antipathetic definition in
>> for- profit corporate dictionaries.
>>
> 
> Bellend?

The British talk funny, and corporate flunkies are always recognizable.

-- 
http://totally-portable-software.blogspot.com
  [Sun Nov 22: "Total Portability is not binary"]

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#7617

FromJohn Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com>
Date2015-12-30 07:30 -0600
Message-ID<87twn06p32.fsf@thumper.dhh.gt.org>
In reply to#7603
crankypuss writes:
> I wonder why we still have so many different version control systems;
> they're all about doing one conceptually-simple thing, and even though
> the range of their scaling is large, we ought to have been able to
> have figured out the general case by now.

We have.  It's called "Git".
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI USA

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#7621

Fromcrankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date2015-12-30 06:55 -0700
Message-ID<n60nk5$64c$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#7617
John Hasler wrote:

> crankypuss writes:
>> I wonder why we still have so many different version control systems;
>> they're all about doing one conceptually-simple thing, and even
>> though the range of their scaling is large, we ought to have been
>> able to have figured out the general case by now.
> 
> We have.  It's called "Git".

Okay, I can provisionally accept that.  I look forward to learning how 
Git performs the basic functions:

a) Obtain a current modifiable copy of a specific version of a specific 
project,
b) Update the archive with changed components from (a),
c) Promote a project to the next stability-level,
d) Include end-user bug reports to "veto" promotion,
e) Resolve the possibility of personal interest causing spurious vetos.

That's what I see as the basics, actually building executable code from 
project components (should that be necessary) is purely mechanical 
compared to a-e (especially e!).

[Anybody else notice that knode "Platform Version 4.14.2" requires you 
to click in the "Followup-To" field?  What a PITA, didn't anybody try 
the thing before shipping it, and if they did how could they miss this?]

-- 
http://totally-portable-software.blogspot.com
  [Sun Nov 22: "Total Portability is not binary"]

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#7570

From"J.O. Aho" <user@example.net>
Date2015-12-29 09:20 +0100
Message-ID<deeu36Fpr3rU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#7564
On 12/29/2015 03:30 AM, crankypuss wrote:

> if most 
> developers use Git, how do they then check their work in so it gets 
> included in the builds?

This is just in general, not directly connected to any project. You will
have different branches, a master branch which is what you have for the
live system, a development branch which is the upcoming system and then
you may have other branches one for each change. The
developer/maintainer then pushes his branch to the remote git
repository. Then someone reviews the branch changes and merge it to the
development branch if it passes the review. When you have a development
branch which works and have all the packages for the next generation,
then you merge it to master branch and tag the version on the master
branch and now others would be able to download the new packages.


If you are looking for debian development environment, then check this
page: https://www.debian.org/devel/buildd

Sure it allows you to have a git or another version control system in
the bottom, so when you make changes you can revert if there is
something wrong.

-- 

 //Aho

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#7577

Fromcrankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date2015-12-29 07:03 -0700
Message-ID<n5u3m8$qbl$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#7570
J.O. Aho wrote:

> On 12/29/2015 03:30 AM, crankypuss wrote:
> 
>> if most
>> developers use Git, how do they then check their work in so it gets
>> included in the builds?
> 
> This is just in general, not directly connected to any project. You
> will have different branches, a master branch which is what you have
> for the live system, a development branch which is the upcoming system
> and then you may have other branches one for each change. The
> developer/maintainer then pushes his branch to the remote git
> repository. Then someone reviews the branch changes and merge it to
> the development branch if it passes the review. When you have a
> development branch which works and have all the packages for the next
> generation, then you merge it to master branch and tag the version on
> the master branch and now others would be able to download the new
> packages.
> 
> 
> If you are looking for debian development environment, then check this
> page: https://www.debian.org/devel/buildd
> 
> Sure it allows you to have a git or another version control system in
> the bottom, so when you make changes you can revert if there is
> something wrong.
> 

From a brief look it seems like the info is there, I'll read it in 
detail a bit later.  Thanks.

-- 
http://totally-portable-software.blogspot.com
  [Sun Nov 22: "Total Portability is not binary"]

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#7578

FromJohn Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com>
Date2015-12-29 08:34 -0600
Message-ID<87a8otpbm6.fsf@thumper.dhh.gt.org>
In reply to#7570
J.O. Aho writes:
> If you are looking for debian development environment, then check this
> page: https://www.debian.org/devel/buildd

However note that there is no requirement that packages be built on the
autobuilders: developers can and do build packages on their own systems
and upload them to Incoming for whatever architecture they use.  Also
note that when the autobuilders do build packages they go to Incoming
just like ones built directly by the developers.  Normally the developer
uploads a source package plus a binary package for whatever architecture
he runs and the autobuilders build binaries for the other architectures.

There is a movement afoot to go to having all binaries built on the
autobuilder network.  However, this will not really change the process:
it just means that developers will go to uploading source-only packages.

In Debian there is no unified Git-like source repository of all source
code nor is there a single giant build system that builds the entire
distribution as a unit.  Each package is a seperate unit.  Dependency
relationships among packages are handled on the package level and
described by standardized metadata in each package.  This makes it
possible to build and upload to the archive a new version of a package
without necessarily making any changes to any other package.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI USA

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#7604

Fromcrankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date2015-12-30 03:17 -0700
Message-ID<n60aqo$reo$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#7578
John Hasler wrote:

> J.O. Aho writes:
>> If you are looking for debian development environment, then check
>> this page: https://www.debian.org/devel/buildd
> 
> However note that there is no requirement that packages be built on
> the autobuilders: developers can and do build packages on their own
> systems
> and upload them to Incoming for whatever architecture they use.  Also
> note that when the autobuilders do build packages they go to Incoming
> just like ones built directly by the developers.  Normally the
> developer uploads a source package plus a binary package for whatever
> architecture he runs and the autobuilders build binaries for the other
> architectures.
> 
> There is a movement afoot to go to having all binaries built on the
> autobuilder network.  However, this will not really change the
> process: it just means that developers will go to uploading
> source-only packages.

I think that might be an extremely good thing.  The GPL requires 
parallelism between a binary and its source, and currently puts the onus 
of supplying the source code on the distributor of the binary.  If both 
come from the same source it seems as though it would become possible to 
distribute a modification in binary that is "guaranteed" (by merit of 
the way it's built) to have parallel source code available from the same 
repository as the binary.

As an example of what I'm talking about, if I was to modify PHP such 
that it was a "small" (conceptually, anyway) front-end to which the PHP 
source code for an application was appended, thus making the PHP source 
code a "standalone" binary that would run on any system architecturally 
compatible with the front-end, current licensing requirements seem to 
forbid such a thing unless the source code for the modified PHP front-
end is distributed along with the binary.

> In Debian there is no unified Git-like source repository of all source
> code nor is there a single giant build system that builds the entire
> distribution as a unit.

That seems like a good thing, it allows development outside the system 
and integration into the system.  One would want the system to rebuild 
what the developer has constructed from what has been included into the 
system, otherwise it's an error-magnet.

> Each package is a seperate unit.  Dependency
> relationships among packages are handled on the package level and
> described by standardized metadata in each package.

IMO that is *extremely* messed up.

> This makes it
> possible to build and upload to the archive a new version of a package
> without necessarily making any changes to any other package.

Dependency relationships should be generated from the code, not from the 
developer's memory or inclinations to "recommend" this or that.  
Dependencies are simply what they are, the information is there in the 
source.

-- 
http://totally-portable-software.blogspot.com
  [Sun Nov 22: "Total Portability is not binary"]

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#7607

FromChris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us>
Date2015-12-30 05:59 -0500
Message-ID<n60ddv$10e$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#7604
crankypuss wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> John Hasler wrote:
>
>> Each package is a seperate unit.  Dependency
>> relationships among packages are handled on the package level and
>> described by standardized metadata in each package.
>
> IMO that is *extremely* messed up.
>
>> This makes it
>> possible to build and upload to the archive a new version of a package
>> without necessarily making any changes to any other package.
>
> Dependency relationships should be generated from the code, not from the 
> developer's memory or inclinations to "recommend" this or that.  
> Dependencies are simply what they are, the information is there in the 
> source.

Not really.  That's why they have "make" files.

-- 
You have many friends and very few living enemies.

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#7612

Fromcrankypuss <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date2015-12-30 04:53 -0700
Message-ID<n60gef$dbb$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#7607
Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> crankypuss wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
> 
>> John Hasler wrote:
>>
>>> Each package is a seperate unit.  Dependency
>>> relationships among packages are handled on the package level and
>>> described by standardized metadata in each package.
>>
>> IMO that is *extremely* messed up.
>>
>>> This makes it
>>> possible to build and upload to the archive a new version of a
>>> package without necessarily making any changes to any other package.
>>
>> Dependency relationships should be generated from the code, not from
>> the developer's memory or inclinations to "recommend" this or that.
>> Dependencies are simply what they are, the information is there in
>> the source.
> 
> Not really.  That's why they have "make" files.

I need to just let that statement stand instead of beginning a rant; be 
glad, be very glad. <G>

-- 
http://totally-portable-software.blogspot.com
  [Sun Nov 22: "Total Portability is not binary"]

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