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a most bizarre conversation

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  a most bizarre conversation Jim D <Not@ThisAddress.com> - 2019-03-31 03:25 -0400
    Re: a most bizarre conversation Jim D <Not@ThisAddress.com> - 2019-03-31 22:26 -0400
      Re: a most bizarre conversation "Ouisie" <someone@anywheret.net> - 2019-04-01 12:58 -0500
        Re: a most bizarre conversation Jim D <Not@ThisAddress.com> - 2019-04-03 09:53 -0400
          Re: a most bizarre conversation "Ouisie" <someone@anywheret.net> - 2019-04-03 15:24 -0500
            Re: a most bizarre conversation Jim D <Not@ThisAddress.com> - 2019-04-05 11:12 -0400
              Re: a most bizarre conversation "Ouisie" <someone@anywheret.net> - 2019-04-08 13:29 -0500
                Re: a most bizarre conversation Jim D <Not@ThisAddress.com> - 2019-04-10 12:06 -0400
                  Re: a most bizarre conversation "Ouisie" <someone@anywheret.net> - 2019-04-14 16:51 -0500
                    Re: a most bizarre conversation Jim D <Not@ThisAddress.com> - 2019-04-16 13:08 -0400
                      Re: a most bizarre conversation "Ouisie" <someone@anywheret.net> - 2019-04-16 15:21 -0500
                        Re: a most bizarre conversation Jim D <Not@ThisAddress.com> - 2019-04-18 11:55 -0400
                          Re: a most bizarre conversation "Ouisie" <someone@anywheret.net> - 2019-04-20 19:00 -0500
                            Re: a most bizarre conversation Jim D <Not@ThisAddress.com> - 2019-04-21 10:09 -0400
                              Re: a most bizarre conversation "Ouisie" <someone@anywheret.net> - 2019-04-21 14:45 -0500
                                Re: a most bizarre conversation Jim D <Not@ThisAddress.com> - 2019-04-22 14:58 -0400
                                  Re: a most bizarre conversation "Ouisie" <someone@anywheret.net> - 2019-04-22 16:45 -0500
                                    Re: a most bizarre conversation Jim D <Not@ThisAddress.com> - 2019-04-25 09:43 -0400
                                      Re: a most bizarre conversation "Ouisie" <someone@anywheret.net> - 2019-04-27 20:45 -0500
                                        Re: a most bizarre conversation Jim D <Not@ThisAddress.com> - 2019-05-13 10:52 -0400
                                          Re: a most bizarre conversation "Ouisie" <someone@anywheret.net> - 2019-05-13 18:38 -0500

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#15066 — a most bizarre conversation

I just need to document this, so that tomorrow I can read this and 
realize I'm not now dreaming.


Did a nice band gig this evening. Some issues with the pa, lack of a 
proper soundcheck, time limits.   So band girl goes out, at my request, 
on one of out first song, me singing, to get a bead on the main pa 
levels. Comes back, says the drums aren't loud enough, and the overall 
music is too low, and the vocals are loud.

Wants me to correct that. I reply that her monitor, the only speakr 
onstage is " swamping the stage " and so I can't hear the mains, but 
I'll adjust as she suggests.

All this then dominoed out of control ending up with her turning her 
monitor off, not saying anything, only telling me after the gig.  What 
was wrong initially was the level settings on the FOH power amp. Those 
were at 2, because I had been working on some things at home earlier in 
the week. Caught it in the 2nd song or so, and put them back to their 
normal positions.  But she never readjusted her monitor. Instead she 
ask me to turn her mic up, because it wasn't loud enough out front. So, 
I did.  She left her monitor off the entire gig.  She has the controls 
on it, remember.

Told me later that she didn't want to upset me by having it so loud 
that it " swamped the stage ".  I replied that I said that because at 
the time the mains were barely on .... not that her monitor would be 
too loud once the whole pa was up and running.

Oh, and we recorded the gig.  That'll be ruined by the way too hot mic levels.

It's like her and I don't even speak the same language on this stuff.


more thoughts later if I have any ........


JimD

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#15069

On 2019-03-31 07:25:43 +0000, Jim D said:

> I just need to document this, so that tomorrow I can read this and 
> realize I'm not now dreaming.
> 
> 
> Did a nice band gig this evening. Some issues with the pa, lack of a 
> proper soundcheck, time limits.   So band girl goes out, at my request, 
> on one of out first song, me singing, to get a bead on the main pa 
> levels. Comes back, says the drums aren't loud enough, and the overall 
> music is too low, and the vocals are loud.
> 
> Wants me to correct that. I reply that her monitor, the only speakr 
> onstage is " swamping the stage " and so I can't hear the mains, but 
> I'll adjust as she suggests.
> 
> All this then dominoed out of control ending up with her turning her 
> monitor off, not saying anything, only telling me after the gig.  What 
> was wrong initially was the level settings on the FOH power amp. Those 
> were at 2, because I had been working on some things at home earlier in 
> the week. Caught it in the 2nd song or so, and put them back to their 
> normal positions.  But she never readjusted her monitor. Instead she 
> ask me to turn her mic up, because it wasn't loud enough out front. So, 
> I did.  She left her monitor off the entire gig.  She has the controls 
> on it, remember.
> 
> Told me later that she didn't want to upset me by having it so loud 
> that it " swamped the stage ".  I replied that I said that because at 
> the time the mains were barely on .... not that her monitor would be 
> too loud once the whole pa was up and running.
> 
> Oh, and we recorded the gig.  That'll be ruined by the way too hot mic levels.
> 
> It's like her and I don't even speak the same language on this stuff.
> 
> 
> more thoughts later if I have any ........
> 
> 
> JimD


did a duo this evening, day after I wrote the above stuff.  It went 
well, except ... of course for a few comments from her keeping the 
unending volume problem alive.

I told her yesterday that this comes down to her simply not trusting me 
to run the pa.  It's just that simple. Who she thinks WILL do it, I'm 
not sure.  But for sure as long as it's me, she'll be finding after the 
fact fault. Something she can't really put into words, but it was wrong 
just the same.

For a while I thought she was just so accoustomed to crappy bar band 
stage sound, and so sounding like a decent band was just foreign to 
her. But more and more it looks like she'll never come around.  She 
likes things loud and jumbled.  It seems perhaps it's true, you really 
can't teach an old dog new tricks.

No matter how many people, even some of her old band mates, tell her 
how good we sound, ... ti doesn't matter. There is still something 
wrong with the mix. Something she can't define, but that she is sure is 
there.

It's hopeless.

So what to do ?

Tonight she suggested I make up checklists of all the things that need 
done, that might go wrong, so she can make me go over them at each 
setup. I said, I already know how to hook the pa up. The problem comes 
in when I don't have time to recheck EVERYONE else's work. I don't set 
up her monitor. Or make sure she has her iphone actually on the right 
wifi channel to link to the pa.  I don't have time to look as see if 
her monitor is plugged into ac.  If I have to do all that, they might 
as well just go to the lounge and leave me to set up everything on the 
stage. I could, but it'll take a while.  And then, I'd need to one by 
one check that all the mics work, that no cables are broke, that all 
the speakers actually got connected up, and again, aren't blown.  And 
when all that's done, she'll still find some fault with the mix.

As is it, I have to AB mine and her mics to prove to her that mine 
isn't somehow louder than hers. I had to to that this evening.

Ridiculous ?

Absolutely.



JimD

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#15070

Seems to me she has a choice - either let you handle the levels, or she can 
do it.

There's nothing like an Imaginary 'problem' to complain about!

Other bands are losing gigs because they're too Stupid to get the levels 
right, and you're getting gigs - that's got to say at least *something*!

Ouisie 

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#15071

> Seems to me she has a choice - either let you handle the levels, or she 
> can do it.
> 
> There's nothing like an Imaginary 'problem' to complain about!
> 
> Other bands are losing gigs because they're too Stupid to get the 
> levels right, and you're getting gigs - that's got to say at least 
> *something*!
> 
> Ouisie

Her and I had a day long session yesterday.  Redid the intros on 
several of the square dance songs and added on " normal " song that was 
a request of her.   Also went out for lunch during all that.  She 
wanted to discuss how the pa worked then.  Questioning my using 
compression on the mics.  I told her  I wasn't using anything like that 
on hers.  She threw a fit back when we first got the pa, sreiously over 
reacted to comp on her mic, so I turned it off ..... On Her Mic.  She 
ask yesterday if it was even possible to use compression on a mic live 
?   I said, sure it is.  Said I've had some on MY mic since the new 
mixer ... so for most of a year. That surprised her.  Remember she has 
an obcession that my mic is louder that her's, so we're always having 
to A/B them at gigs ?

Yep, I said " you wanted all that shut down ... on ... your .... mic.  
I never turned any of it off on MINE.  "

So now she's open to letting me turn that stuff back on on her mic.

----


been reading up on using comp on mic live ... big range of opinions.  
Some people hate it, yet I keep reading what particular comp this or 
that big name uses ........


-----
JimD

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#15072

"Jim D"  wrote in message news:2019040309532790834-Not@ThisAddresscom...

> Her and I had a day long session yesterday.  Redid the intros on several 
> of the square dance songs and added on " normal " song that was a request 
> of her.   Also went out for lunch during all that.  She wanted to discuss 
> how the pa worked then.  Questioning my using compression on the mics.  I 
> told her  I wasn't using anything like that on hers.  She threw a fit back 
> when we first got the pa, sreiously over reacted to comp on her mic, so I 
> turned it off ..... On Her Mic.  She ask yesterday if it was even possible 
> to use compression on a mic live ?   I said, sure it is.  Said I've had 
> some on MY mic since the new mixer ... so for most of a year. That 
> surprised her.  Remember she has an obcession that my mic is louder that 
> her's, so we're always having to A/B them at gigs ?

There's nothing like someone getting upset when they have no idea what's 
going on in the first place.

> Yep, I said " you wanted all that shut down ... on ... your .... mic.  I 
> never turned any of it off on MINE.  "

> So now she's open to letting me turn that stuff back on on her mic.

Gee, I wonder why ;)
----

> been reading up on using comp on mic live ... big range of opinions.  Some 
> people hate it, yet I keep reading what particular comp this or that big 
> name uses ........


-----
JimD

Compression is a tool, and like any tool, needs to be used Properly for best 
results.

I'd Love to have a stand alone dedicated compressor!

Ouisie 

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#15073

> 
> 
>> Her and I had a day long session yesterday.  Redid the intros on 
>> several of the square dance songs and added on " normal " song that was 
>> a request of her.   Also went out for lunch during all that.  She 
>> wanted to discuss how the pa worked then.  Questioning my using 
>> compression on the mics.  I told her  I wasn't using anything like that 
>> on hers.  She threw a fit back when we first got the pa, sreiously over 
>> reacted to comp on her mic, so I turned it off ..... On Her Mic.  She 
>> ask yesterday if it was even possible to use compression on a mic live 
>> ?   I said, sure it is.  Said I've had some on MY mic since the new 
>> mixer ... so for most of a year. That surprised her.  Remember she has 
>> an obcession that my mic is louder that her's, so we're always having 
>> to A/B them at gigs ?
> 
> There's nothing like someone getting upset when they have no idea 
> what's going on in the first place.
> 
>> Yep, I said " you wanted all that shut down ... on ... your .... mic.  
>> I never turned any of it off on MINE.  "
> 
>> So now she's open to letting me turn that stuff back on on her mic.
> 
> Gee, I wonder why ;)
> ----
> 
>> been reading up on using comp on mic live ... big range of opinions.  
>> Some people hate it, yet I keep reading what particular comp this or 
>> that big name uses ........
> 
> 
> -----
> JimD
> 
> Compression is a tool, and like any tool, needs to be used Properly for 
> best results.
> 
> I'd Love to have a stand alone dedicated compressor!
> 
> Ouisie

Fear of change. Fear of the unknown.  Stage fright ....   ?   Heck, I 
don't know.  The underlying reasons for her ever changing " problems " 
with the sound are a mystery.

At this point I'm saying it's insecurity mixed with not wanting to let 
anyone else have control.  Distrust.


I found a nice article on the web written by some high end sound guy / 
recording engineer that talked about this stuff.  He basically hit 
every point I'm made, every problem we have.  From amature bands that 
want to fry the pa to singers that want to tell you how to eq the FOH.  
I sent band girl a link.  Risky, but still, she needs to learn.

I can't post that link now from this computer, but I will email it to 
you later. Read it or toss it ... your choice :-)

JimD

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#15074

"Jim D"  wrote in message news:2019040511120495552-Not@ThisAddresscom...

> Fear of change. Fear of the unknown.  Stage fright ....   ?   Heck, I 
> don't know.  The underlying reasons for her ever changing " problems " 
> with the sound are a mystery.

May changing, or deteriorating hearing could be the problem.

> At this point I'm saying it's insecurity mixed with not wanting to let 
> anyone else have control.  Distrust.

From some bad personal experiences, I've developed an attitude of not 
wanting someone else controlling whether I get heard or not, because I want 
to be heard, at least be me even if by no one else!!!

> I found a nice article on the web written by some high end sound guy / 
> recording engineer that talked about this stuff.  He basically hit every 
> point I'm made, every problem we have.  From amature bands that want to 
> fry the pa to singers that want to tell you how to eq the FOH.  I sent 
> band girl a link.  Risky, but still, she needs to learn.

> I can't post that link now from this computer, but I will email it to you 
> later. Read it or toss it ... your choice :-)

JimD

That's a good  article. No big revelation for me though, because I've known 
that for a long time - it's got to sound decent FIRST, and that means the 
*entire* band, not some egomaniacal prima donna's instrument and/or vocals 
ONLY!!!

When I play, I want to hear every sound the *entire band* makes - clearly 
and distinctly, just as if I was listening to a studio recording, so that I 
can *truly* get into and thus *be* in the Music, and be tripping on the Love 
Vibe!

Ouisie 

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#15075

> 
> 
>> Fear of change. Fear of the unknown.  Stage fright ....   ?   Heck, I 
>> don't know.  The underlying reasons for her ever changing " problems " 
>> with the sound are a mystery.
> 
> May changing, or deteriorating hearing could be the problem.
> 
>> At this point I'm saying it's insecurity mixed with not wanting to let 
>> anyone else have control.  Distrust.
> 
> From some bad personal experiences, I've developed an attitude of not 
> wanting someone else controlling whether I get heard or not, because I 
> want to be heard, at least be me even if by no one else!!!
> 
>> I found a nice article on the web written by some high end sound guy / 
>> recording engineer that talked about this stuff.  He basically hit 
>> every point I'm made, every problem we have.  From amature bands that 
>> want to fry the pa to singers that want to tell you how to eq the FOH.  
>> I sent band girl a link.  Risky, but still, she needs to learn.
> 
>> I can't post that link now from this computer, but I will email it to 
>> you later. Read it or toss it ... your choice :-)
> 
> JimD
> 
> That's a good  article. No big revelation for me though, because I've 
> known that for a long time - it's got to sound decent FIRST, and that 
> means the *entire* band, not some egomaniacal prima donna's instrument 
> and/or vocals ONLY!!!
> 
> When I play, I want to hear every sound the *entire band* makes - 
> clearly and distinctly, just as if I was listening to a studio 
> recording, so that I can *truly* get into and thus *be* in the Music, 
> and be tripping on the Love Vibe!
> 
> Ouisie


Wanting to hear everthing like it's a record is a BIG part of her 
problem. That's generally not possible in a live situation. Maybe you 
can think of a way that it is, but I can't.

Her and I had a long talk after yersterday's duo job.  Don't know if we 
solved anything, but the pressure is slightly less now, so maybe our 
relationship won't blow apart.

Distrust, as an inability to let anyone else do their job without her 
overseeing and approval, is the issue.  It's very difficult to work 
with others when you have that mindset. Most people get tired of having 
to explain why they did this or that some particular way ... to someone 
who doesn't understand the job, or the explination.

Cousin brought up pro ball team owners as an example of something like 
that. An owner that hires a head coach then meddles in all that coaches 
decisions. Eventually the coach will quit. Or, after the team loses 
enough games, the owner might back away and let the pro's make the 
decisions.  Either way, having some unqualified person in charge of 
something they don't understand usually doesn't work out well.

Saw a comment once that the reason most bands are too loud is because 
90% of musicians don't know one thing about acoustics.

That pretty much covers our little problem.  That and listening to 
people from her circle of friends that know even less that that. As in 
it's often worse to " know " something that's wrong, than to know 
nothing at all. And the idea that " turn it up " is a good way to run 
the pa is just wrong.

JimD

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#15080

"Jim D"  wrote in message news:2019041012062570908-Not@ThisAddresscom...

> Wanting to hear everthing like it's a record is a BIG part of her problem. 
> That's generally not possible in a live situation. Maybe you can think of 
> a way that it is, but I can't.

It can be done through the *right* monitor system. Personally, I like small 
mic stand monitors that I can use in or close to near field proximity. That 
way, I hear myself without becoming de facto part of the FOH system...and 
don't have to suffer the discomfort of having things stuck into my ears, 
even though I *wish* I could stand them.

> Her and I had a long talk after yersterday's duo job.  Don't know if we 
> solved anything, but the pressure is slightly less now, so maybe our 
> relationship won't blow apart.

I can't say I've ever experienced anything like that situation, but if I 
did, I'd approach its remedy on an experimental basis. That way, I can at 
least ask for some cooperation, hopefully with some degree of impunity, and 
perhaps even some success, with *trying* the experiment(s).

But once again, as with anything else that's seriously worthwhile, Maturity 
in general and open mindedness in particular, is Required.

> Distrust, as an inability to let anyone else do their job without her 
> overseeing and approval, is the issue.

That's where the experimental approach might help - doing a *test* - 
*trying* something in order to evaluate the results.
That way the only commitment is simply to *see* how things will work out.

It's very difficult to work with others when you have that mindset.

Unless it can be *defused*, by a different approach.

Most people get tired of having to explain why they did this or that some 
particular way ... to someone
who doesn't understand the job, or the explination.

Then try focusing on the *results* instead...since those are a LOT harder to 
argue with.

> Cousin brought up pro ball team owners as an example of something like 
> that. An owner that hires a head coach then meddles in all that coaches 
> decisions. Eventually the coach will quit. Or, after the team loses enough 
> games, the owner might back away and let the pro's make the decisions. 
> Either way, having some unqualified person in charge of something they 
> don't understand usually doesn't work out well.

And the common denominator is success, or the lack thereof, which is usually 
a very powerful motive, particularly when properly focused on.

> Saw a comment once that the reason most bands are too loud is because 90% 
> of musicians don't know one thing about acoustics.

More like 90% of them have Ruined their hearing *because* they know nothing 
about acoustics, that and of course, because they're Total IDIOTS, who 
STUPIDLY *chose* to disregard the *pain* signals that too-high SPLs were 
giving them back when they actually could still hear.

> That pretty much covers our little problem.  That and listening to people 
> from her circle of friends that know even less that that. As in it's often 
> worse to " know " something that's wrong, than to know nothing at all. And 
> the idea that " turn it up " is a good way to run the pa is just wrong.

JimD

If they're *real* friends, they'll want their friends to get gigs rather 
than Lose them - along with their hearing!

Ouisie 

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#15085

> 
> 
>> Wanting to hear everthing like it's a record is a BIG part of her 
>> problem. That's generally not possible in a live situation. Maybe you 
>> can think of a way that it is, but I can't.
> 
> It can be done through the *right* monitor system. Personally, I like 
> small mic stand monitors that I can use in or close to near field 
> proximity. That way, I hear myself without becoming de facto part of 
> the FOH system...and don't have to suffer the discomfort of having 
> things stuck into my ears, even though I *wish* I could stand them.

She told me yesterday she's never worked in a band that used monitors 
before the grage band I " found " her in.  I ask, how could you hear 
yourself then ?   Lot's of rambling nonsense followed.  I believe the 
answer is that she sang REALLY LOUD.  And she can't seem to back off 
that style.


> 
>> Her and I had a long talk after yersterday's duo job.  Don't know if we 
>> solved anything, but the pressure is slightly less now, so maybe our 
>> relationship won't blow apart.
> 
> I can't say I've ever experienced anything like that situation, but if 
> I did, I'd approach its remedy on an experimental basis. That way, I 
> can at least ask for some cooperation, hopefully with some degree of 
> impunity, and perhaps even some success, with *trying* the 
> experiment(s).
> 
> But once again, as with anything else that's seriously worthwhile, 
> Maturity in general and open mindedness in particular, is Required.

In our case, she'll either learn to sing at less than full throated 
levels, or she'll never have enough stage level.

Easy to fit. If she want's massive stage level, simple to the point of 
absurdity, use the in ears, turn them up to whatever she wants.  She 
won't do that. No not now, no not ever.

Next solution, less satisfactory, use a floor wedge. Ah, but then how 
to make one single 15 and a horn sound as loud as a full up rock band ? 
 Not easy, as she's learning. They will blow up first.


> 
>> Distrust, as an inability to let anyone else do their job without her 
>> overseeing and approval, is the issue.
> 
> That's where the experimental approach might help - doing a *test* - 
> *trying* something in order to evaluate the results.
> That way the only commitment is simply to *see* how things will work out.
> 
> It's very difficult to work with others when you have that mindset.
> 
> Unless it can be *defused*, by a different approach.
> 
> Most people get tired of having to explain why they did this or that 
> some particular way ... to someone
> who doesn't understand the job, or the explination.

or actively doesn't WANT to understand.


> 
> Then try focusing on the *results* instead...since those are a LOT 
> harder to argue with.


Results ?   What would that be ?  The only thing she wants is for us to 
crank the FOH until we get fired. I say that because, we spent a year 
blowing cabs up and that wasn't loud enough. It's only now that we've 
lost some regular gigs and are in the process of losing more that's 
she's really digging her heels in on correcting this.

Is she worth the aggrivation ?

No.

Absolutely not.

But getting out of several year long contracts isn't just snap your 
finger easy.  So I'm trying to help her before the inevitable blow up 
happens.



> 
>> Cousin brought up pro ball team owners as an example of something like 
>> that. An owner that hires a head coach then meddles in all that coaches 
>> decisions. Eventually the coach will quit. Or, after the team loses 
>> enough games, the owner might back away and let the pro's make the 
>> decisions. Either way, having some unqualified person in charge of 
>> something they don't understand usually doesn't work out well.
> 
> And the common denominator is success, or the lack thereof, which is 
> usually a very powerful motive, particularly when properly focused on.
> 
>> Saw a comment once that the reason most bands are too loud is because 
>> 90% of musicians don't know one thing about acoustics.
> 
> More like 90% of them have Ruined their hearing *because* they know 
> nothing about acoustics, that and of course, because they're Total 
> IDIOTS, who STUPIDLY *chose* to disregard the *pain* signals that 
> too-high SPLs were giving them back when they actually could still hear.

I hit the threshold of pain with this band two summers back at an 
outdoor gig. Seriously thought I'd burst an eardrum.  Really.

Since then, it's been a never ending struggle to try and back the 
levels down.  I'll lose in the end.  Well, not totally. I'll lose the 
battle bt win the war. The band will be gone, but I'll still have some 
of hearing left.


> 
>> That pretty much covers our little problem.  That and listening to 
>> people from her circle of friends that know even less that that. As in 
>> it's often worse to " know " something that's wrong, than to know 
>> nothing at all. And the idea that " turn it up " is a good way to run 
>> the pa is just wrong.
> 
> JimD
> 
> If they're *real* friends, they'll want their friends to get gigs 
> rather than Lose them - along with their hearing!
> 
> Ouisie


They want her to fail.   As obvious as anything in the world could ever be.

JimD

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#15088

"Jim D"  wrote in message news:2019041613085426341-Not@ThisAddresscom...

> She told me yesterday she's never worked in a band that used monitors 
> before the grage band I " found " her in.  I ask, how could you hear 
> yourself then ?   Lot's of rambling nonsense followed.  I believe the 
> answer is that she sang REALLY LOUD.  And she can't seem to back off that 
> style.

Vocal folds have a lot in common with ears - they can only take so much 
abuse before they start failing.
Overly Loud singing can damage vocal folds as surely as Overly Loud sound 
levels can damage hearing.

> In our case, she'll either learn to sing at less than full throated 
> levels, or she'll never have enough stage level.

Working the mic is the best way.

> Easy to fit. If she want's massive stage level, simple to the point of 
> absurdity, use the in ears, turn them up to whatever she wants.  She won't 
> do that. No not now, no not ever.

If I could tolerate those things, I'd have the levels exactly where it 
sounded best to me.

> Next solution, less satisfactory, use a floor wedge. Ah, but then how to 
> make one single 15 and a horn sound as loud as a full up rock band ? Not 
> easy, as she's learning. They will blow up first.

She should work the wedge, and the mic, remaining in optimum proximity to 
both.

> or actively doesn't WANT to understand.

There are far too many who don't want to understand or even learn anything - 
they *fear* that it might make them Responsible, and they're too Lazy and 
Cowardly for that!

> Results ?   What would that be ?

Gigs of course, and more of them, and better paying, and better venues, and 
better audiences, to name a few.

> The only thing she wants is for us to crank the FOH until we get fired.

Does she somehow use the FOH system for a monitor system? If not, why should 
she care about anything other than the monitor system?

> I say that because, we spent a year blowing cabs up and that wasn't loud 
> enough.

That gets ridiculously expensive because it's expensively ridiculous!

> It's only now that we've lost some regular gigs and are in the process of 
> losing more that's she's really digging her heels in on correcting this.

So she really does want gigs after all...even to the point of correcting a 
problem that never should have been there in the first place?

> Is she worth the aggrivation ?

> No.

> Absolutely not.

Then it's straighten-up-and-fly-right time ;)

> But getting out of several year long contracts isn't just snap your finger 
> easy.  So I'm trying to help her before the inevitable blow up happens.

But getting out isn't quite the same as being thrown out, unless the 
contract actually has some requirements about sound levels.

> I hit the threshold of pain with this band two summers back at an outdoor 
> gig. Seriously thought I'd burst an eardrum.  Really.

I've felt it a few times and that's a few times too many, so I always keep 
earplugs with me. Like anything stuck into my ears, I can't stand them 
either but when the  alternative is deafness, that's not a choice for me so 
in they go, and when the gig is over, I go, never to return.

> Since then, it's been a never ending struggle to try and back the levels 
> down.  I'll lose in the end.  Well, not totally. I'll lose the battle bt 
> win the war. The band will be gone, but I'll still have some of hearing 
> left.

So the management isn't complaining, the audience isn't complaining, only 
she is complaining and doesn't mind folding up the band, even it's doing 
better and better all the time, and return to the  SEWER?
Could it possibly be a bluff?

> They want her to fail.   As obvious as anything in the world could ever 
> be.

JimD

Of course, they blew it so they want her to do the same thing. As the old 
saying goes ;"With 'friends' like that......etc." ;)

Ouisie 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#15089

> 
> 
>> She told me yesterday she's never worked in a band that used monitors 
>> before the grage band I " found " her in.  I ask, how could you hear 
>> yourself then ?   Lot's of rambling nonsense followed.  I believe the 
>> answer is that she sang REALLY LOUD.  And she can't seem to back off 
>> that style.
> 
> Vocal folds have a lot in common with ears - they can only take so much 
> abuse before they start failing.
> Overly Loud singing can damage vocal folds as surely as Overly Loud 
> sound levels can damage hearing.


Her and I had a session yesterday.  Spent some time LOOKING at the db 
levels we work.   I've just layed down the reality with her. I'm not 
working at ****** stage levels ********  over about 90 db.   Just ain't 
happening.   I'm not going to wear hear plugs so we can just play 
louder ON STAGE.

The FOH and the stage level are two separate things.   So stop whinning 
about the FOH levels. No more asking " a friend " if we're loud enough. 
 I'm done with that.

It occurs to me, she simply can't wrap her mind around the the stage 
level and the FOH level being different.

Because she doesn't want to.

She did make reference at one point that her own voice was drowning out 
the music.  Huh.  Well, how about you back off a little on the vocal 
level ?   That's the stickler.  She's worked with loud bar bands so 
long, so much, that she's stuck in a singing style of VERY LOUD. 
There's not easing off, at least so far. Oh she, can, I've seen her do 
it, but she doesn't want to.

Again, that phrase, because she doesn't want to.


> 
>> In our case, she'll either learn to sing at less than full throated 
>> levels, or she'll never have enough stage level.
> 
> Working the mic is the best way.

Yep.


> 
>> Easy to fit. If she want's massive stage level, simple to the point of 
>> absurdity, use the in ears, turn them up to whatever she wants.  She 
>> won't do that. No not now, no not ever.
> 
> If I could tolerate those things, I'd have the levels exactly where it 
> sounded best to me.

Or, simply get the stage level down to where you don't need them.  
There's no reason musicians can't play at tolerable stage levels.  Turn 
the stuff down and mic things for the FOH sound.  They just don't want 
to.


> 
>> Next solution, less satisfactory, use a floor wedge. Ah, but then how 
>> to make one single 15 and a horn sound as loud as a full up rock band ? 
>> Not easy, as she's learning. They will blow up first.
> 
> She should work the wedge, and the mic, remaining in optimum proximity to both.

We talked about that.  I'm ok with her using a wedge IF she keeps it 
pointed at her head.  No angling it off to one side, cranking it up, 
and then complaing she can't hear it.  Point it directly at HER head, 
then adjust it to whatever level she wants.

Don't point it off towards the back wall, or the drums, or ME .... then 
insist on cranking it up because " I can't hear it ".


> 
>> or actively doesn't WANT to understand.
> 
> There are far too many who don't want to understand or even learn 
> anything - they *fear* that it might make them Responsible, and they're 
> too Lazy and Cowardly for that!
> 
>> Results ?   What would that be ?
> 
> Gigs of course, and more of them, and better paying, and better venues, 
> and better audiences, to name a few.

Yes, imagine the rewards of actually supplying what the customer wants.


> 
>> The only thing she wants is for us to crank the FOH until we get fired.
> 
> Does she somehow use the FOH system for a monitor system? If not, why 
> should she care about anything other than the monitor system?

She cares because her bar and ex muso friends tell her we're not loud 
enough for their low brow tastes.   Obviously she shares their 
preference for loud music.


> 
>> I say that because, we spent a year blowing cabs up and that wasn't 
>> loud enough.
> 
> That gets ridiculously expensive because it's expensively ridiculous!

Got a newly fried JBL apart on my bench right now thanks to  " I can't 
hear it " thinking.  I told her I'd try and fix it, or she can throw it 
away.  Haven't looked at it in about two weeks, just because of other 
more pressing issues. Eventually I guess we'll get it going again. Not 
a biggie, she has another of these she can toast on her path to 
learning how monitors work.


> 
>> It's only now that we've lost some regular gigs and are in the process 
>> of losing more that's she's really digging her heels in on correcting 
>> this.
> 
> So she really does want gigs after all...even to the point of 
> correcting a problem that never should have been there in the first 
> place?

She'll learn to back of the volume, or she won't.  What's bizarre is I 
have several musician friends who think just like her, loud or nothing. 
Of course, none of them are currently in working bands. Lots of talk 
about putting something together, bla bla.  They might.  Then they'll 
play a handfull of gigs, be crazy loud as before, lose all the repeat 
bookings, and be back where they are now, talking about putting a band 
together.


> 
>> Is she worth the aggrivation ?
> 
>> No.
> 
>> Absolutely not.
> 
> Then it's straighten-up-and-fly-right time ;)

She knows that.

> 
>> But getting out of several year long contracts isn't just snap your 
>> finger easy.  So I'm trying to help her before the inevitable blow up 
>> happens.
> 
> But getting out isn't quite the same as being thrown out, unless the 
> contract actually has some requirements about sound levels.

We can lose any of our jobs at any time.  Go in, screw up bad enough, 
and it's over, contracts or not.

> 
>> I hit the threshold of pain with this band two summers back at an 
>> outdoor gig. Seriously thought I'd burst an eardrum.  Really.
> 
> I've felt it a few times and that's a few times too many, so I always 
> keep earplugs with me. Like anything stuck into my ears, I can't stand 
> them either but when the  alternative is deafness, that's not a choice 
> for me so in they go, and when the gig is over, I go, never to return.
> 
>> Since then, it's been a never ending struggle to try and back the 
>> levels down.  I'll lose in the end.  Well, not totally. I'll lose the 
>> battle bt win the war. The band will be gone, but I'll still have some 
>> of hearing left.
> 
> So the management isn't complaining, the audience isn't complaining, 
> only she is complaining and doesn't mind folding up the band, even it's 
> doing better and better all the time, and return to the  SEWER?
> Could it possibly be a bluff?

Management is complaining.  As are some of the audience.

Wanna see something amazing ?   Tell a musician or a chick singer they 
are too loud.  Then, just stand back and watch the reaction.

That's what she's going thru now. It would be major entertainment if it 
wasn't such a serious thing.



> 
>> They want her to fail.   As obvious as anything in the world could ever be.
> 
> JimD
> 
> Of course, they blew it so they want her to do the same thing. As the 
> old saying goes ;"With 'friends' like that......etc." ;)
> 
> Ouisie

Well .....   yesterday didn't go too bad.  We don't play this weekend. 
I have some solo gigs next week, then the band is back at it on the 
weekend.  We have two more gigs on this years deal at the SD.  If we 
get thru those without getting fired, then who knows.  It's all up to 
her maturity level.  Can she work as an adult, or will her stubborn 
child inside blow it up ?

JimD

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#15092

"Jim D"  wrote in message news:2019041811555834943-Not@ThisAddresscom...

> Her and I had a session yesterday.  Spent some time LOOKING at the db 
> levels we work.   I've just layed down the reality with her. I'm not 
> working at ****** stage levels ********  over about 90 db.   Just ain't 
> happening.   I'm not going to wear hear plugs so we can just play louder 
> ON STAGE.

90 dB is plenty. But all SPL figures are best stated in terms of distance 
from the source i.e. 90 dB at 1 meter at 1 Watt. But that's only for speaker 
parameters - for the important hearing protecting purpose, all that's needed 
is the SPL and the distance from the source.

> The FOH and the stage level are two separate things.

Or at least they should be ;)

> So stop whinning about the FOH levels. No more asking " a friend " if 
> we're loud enough. I'm done with that.

Unless she can actually hear the FOH system from the perspective of the 
audience, what possible basis can she have for evaluating its level in the 
first place?

> It occurs to me, she simply can't wrap her mind around the the stage level 
> and the FOH level being different.

> Because she doesn't want to.

That's it, but why?

> She did make reference at one point that her own voice was drowning out 
> the music.  Huh.  Well, how about you back off a little on the vocal level 
> ?   That's the stickler.  She's worked with loud bar bands so long, so 
> much, that she's stuck in a singing style of VERY LOUD. There's not easing 
> off, at least so far. Oh she, can, I've seen her do it, but she doesn't 
> want to.

> Again, that phrase, because she doesn't want to.

Practicing the new technique is what's needed there.

> Or, simply get the stage level down to where you don't need them.

THAT would be Ideal!!! I just HATE the notion of playing under some kind  of 
Handicap, where 'work-arounds' and other compensating and mitigating 
techniques are used...particularly if they wouldn't even be necessary if 
things were done RIGHT in the first place!!!

> There's no reason musicians can't play at tolerable stage levels.

None at all. It just  takes the right ATTITUDE!

> Turn the stuff down and mic things for the FOH sound.  They just don't 
> want to.

Whatever makes it sound BEST - THAT *should* be the  attitude!

> We talked about that.  I'm ok with her using a wedge IF she keeps it 
> pointed at her head.

That's always been how I prefer to use monitors - point them right at *my* 
ears, and keep them close enough to where only minimal power is needed for 
them to be effective...which is why I like the small ones and really have no 
use for the monsters with the 15" speakers and more.

> No angling it off to one side, cranking it up, and then complaing she 
> can't hear it.  Point it directly at HER head, then adjust it to whatever 
> level she wants.

Besides, that's effectively making it part of the FOH system - even in a 
similar power range, which is Silly.

> Don't point it off towards the back wall, or the drums, or ME .... then 
> insist on cranking it up because " I can't hear it ".

Monitors work best when they're Personal...the idea is NOT to share them!

> Yes, imagine the rewards of actually supplying what the customer wants.

Any other way is counterproductive.

> She cares because her bar and ex muso friends tell her we're not loud 
> enough for their low brow tastes.   Obviously she shares their preference 
> for loud music.

Now all they have to do is learn to use an SPL meter. Then they can actually 
Know the levels before deciding ;)

> Got a newly fried JBL apart on my bench right now thanks to  " I can't 
> hear it " thinking.

I wouldn't fry equipment for anyone - neither they nor their Stupid comments 
are worth it!!!

> I told her I'd try and fix it, or she can throw it away.  Haven't looked 
> at it in about two weeks, just because of other more pressing issues. 
> Eventually I guess we'll get it going again. Not a biggie, she has another 
> of these she can toast on her path to learning how monitors work.

That's not learning, only ruining gear ;)
You'd have a better chance with 6th graders, because they'd at least be up 
for learning ;)

> She'll learn to back of the volume, or she won't.

It's easy enough, just turn counterclockwise rather than clockwise ;)

> What's bizarre is I have several musician friends who think just like her, 
> loud or nothing.

At that's probably all that's left of there hearing - Nothing...from being 
too loud for too long!
But why be so loud, and Stupid alone?  So they try to get other FOOLS to 
repeat history - nothing new under the sun.

> Of course, none of them are currently in working bands.

Maybe they can't even hear what they play anymore.

> Lots of talk about putting something together, bla bla.  They might.  Then 
> they'll play a handfull of gigs, be crazy loud as before, lose all the 
> repeat bookings, and be back where they are now, talking about putting a 
> band together.

Or they'll play so badly, because they can't hear, that every new gig will 
be their last. I know of a band like that. No one but drunks, and maybe even 
deaf ones at that, will tolerate them. It's truly Tragic, but then Stupidity 
always is!

> She knows that.

So then she therefore also knows that the proverbial ball is in her court 
and that it's her move.

> We can lose any of our jobs at any time.  Go in, screw up bad enough, and 
> it's over, contracts or not.

I'd think so. I recall even hearing about a big name band that made such a 
train wreck of a concert that they weren't even paid for it, and when they 
tried to take their employer to court to try to collect, after the evidence 
was presented, the court sided with the employer finding them not liable for 
payment ;)

> Management is complaining.  As are some of the audience.

So they find it too loud too?

> Wanna see something amazing ?   Tell a musician or a chick singer they are 
> too loud.  Then, just stand back and watch the reaction.

They probably wouldn't understand what that means ;)

> That's what she's going thru now. It would be major entertainment if it 
> wasn't such a serious thing.

I've found that such situations are far too Disgusting to be funny.
Kind of reminds me of some of the accounts of the details regarding plane 
crashes - if it weren't for the tragedy, it might even be funny, in a Silly, 
Stupid way.

> Well .....   yesterday didn't go too bad.  We don't play this weekend. I 
> have some solo gigs next week, then the band is back at it on the weekend. 
> We have two more gigs on this years deal at the SD.  If we get thru those 
> without getting fired, then who knows.  It's all up to her maturity level. 
> Can she work as an adult, or will her stubborn child inside blow it up ?

JimD

Depends on what kind of child ;)
An episode, specifically "The Bellero shield" of one of my all time favorite 
programs, "The Outer Limits", mentioned that courage, such as to boldly 
explore and experiment, are reserved "for very small children and very 
dedicated scientists". That's my attitude - both of those, and it results in 
a certain level of maturity to preserve it without becoming overcome with 
panic. If she were to adopt THAT kind of maturity, it would no doubt bear 
some awesome results!

Ouisie 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#15097

> 
> 
>> Her and I had a session yesterday.  Spent some time LOOKING at the db 
>> levels we work.   I've just layed down the reality with her. I'm not 
>> working at ****** stage levels ********  over about 90 db.   Just ain't 
>> happening.   I'm not going to wear hear plugs so we can just play 
>> louder ON STAGE.
> 
> 90 dB is plenty. But all SPL figures are best stated in terms of 
> distance from the source i.e. 90 dB at 1 meter at 1 Watt. But that's 
> only for speaker parameters - for the important hearing protecting 
> purpose, all that's needed is the SPL and the distance from the source.
> 
>> The FOH and the stage level are two separate things.
> 
> Or at least they should be ;)
> 
>> So stop whinning about the FOH levels. No more asking " a friend " if 
>> we're loud enough. I'm done with that.
> 
> Unless she can actually hear the FOH system from the perspective of the 
> audience, what possible basis can she have for evaluating its level in 
> the first place?
> 
>> It occurs to me, she simply can't wrap her mind around the the stage 
>> level and the FOH level being different.
> 
>> Because she doesn't want to.
> 
> That's it, but why?
> 
>> She did make reference at one point that her own voice was drowning out 
>> the music.  Huh.  Well, how about you back off a little on the vocal 
>> level ?   That's the stickler.  She's worked with loud bar bands so 
>> long, so much, that she's stuck in a singing style of VERY LOUD. 
>> There's not easing off, at least so far. Oh she, can, I've seen her do 
>> it, but she doesn't want to.
> 
>> Again, that phrase, because she doesn't want to.
> 
> Practicing the new technique is what's needed there.
> 
>> Or, simply get the stage level down to where you don't need them.
> 
> THAT would be Ideal!!! I just HATE the notion of playing under some 
> kind  of Handicap, where 'work-arounds' and other compensating and 
> mitigating techniques are used...particularly if they wouldn't even be 
> necessary if things were done RIGHT in the first place!!!
> 
>> There's no reason musicians can't play at tolerable stage levels.
> 
> None at all. It just  takes the right ATTITUDE!
> 
>> Turn the stuff down and mic things for the FOH sound.  They just don't want to.
> 
> Whatever makes it sound BEST - THAT *should* be the  attitude!
> 
>> We talked about that.  I'm ok with her using a wedge IF she keeps it 
>> pointed at her head.
> 
> That's always been how I prefer to use monitors - point them right at 
> *my* ears, and keep them close enough to where only minimal power is 
> needed for them to be effective...which is why I like the small ones 
> and really have no use for the monsters with the 15" speakers and more.
> 
>> No angling it off to one side, cranking it up, and then complaing she 
>> can't hear it.  Point it directly at HER head, then adjust it to 
>> whatever level she wants.
> 
> Besides, that's effectively making it part of the FOH system - even in 
> a similar power range, which is Silly.
> 
>> Don't point it off towards the back wall, or the drums, or ME .... then 
>> insist on cranking it up because " I can't hear it ".
> 
> Monitors work best when they're Personal...the idea is NOT to share them!
> 
>> Yes, imagine the rewards of actually supplying what the customer wants.
> 
> Any other way is counterproductive.
> 
>> She cares because her bar and ex muso friends tell her we're not loud 
>> enough for their low brow tastes.   Obviously she shares their 
>> preference for loud music.
> 
> Now all they have to do is learn to use an SPL meter. Then they can 
> actually Know the levels before deciding ;)
> 
>> Got a newly fried JBL apart on my bench right now thanks to  " I can't 
>> hear it " thinking.
> 
> I wouldn't fry equipment for anyone - neither they nor their Stupid 
> comments are worth it!!!
> 
>> I told her I'd try and fix it, or she can throw it away.  Haven't 
>> looked at it in about two weeks, just because of other more pressing 
>> issues. Eventually I guess we'll get it going again. Not a biggie, she 
>> has another of these she can toast on her path to learning how monitors 
>> work.
> 
> That's not learning, only ruining gear ;)
> You'd have a better chance with 6th graders, because they'd at least be 
> up for learning ;)
> 
>> She'll learn to back of the volume, or she won't.
> 
> It's easy enough, just turn counterclockwise rather than clockwise ;)
> 
>> What's bizarre is I have several musician friends who think just like 
>> her, loud or nothing.
> 
> At that's probably all that's left of there hearing - Nothing...from 
> being too loud for too long!
> But why be so loud, and Stupid alone?  So they try to get other FOOLS 
> to repeat history - nothing new under the sun.
> 
>> Of course, none of them are currently in working bands.
> 
> Maybe they can't even hear what they play anymore.
> 
>> Lots of talk about putting something together, bla bla.  They might.  
>> Then they'll play a handfull of gigs, be crazy loud as before, lose all 
>> the repeat bookings, and be back where they are now, talking about 
>> putting a band together.
> 
> Or they'll play so badly, because they can't hear, that every new gig 
> will be their last. I know of a band like that. No one but drunks, and 
> maybe even deaf ones at that, will tolerate them. It's truly Tragic, 
> but then Stupidity always is!
> 
>> She knows that.
> 
> So then she therefore also knows that the proverbial ball is in her 
> court and that it's her move.
> 
>> We can lose any of our jobs at any time.  Go in, screw up bad enough, 
>> and it's over, contracts or not.
> 
> I'd think so. I recall even hearing about a big name band that made 
> such a train wreck of a concert that they weren't even paid for it, and 
> when they tried to take their employer to court to try to collect, 
> after the evidence was presented, the court sided with the employer 
> finding them not liable for payment ;)
> 
>> Management is complaining.  As are some of the audience.
> 
> So they find it too loud too?
> 
>> Wanna see something amazing ?   Tell a musician or a chick singer they 
>> are too loud.  Then, just stand back and watch the reaction.
> 
> They probably wouldn't understand what that means ;)
> 
>> That's what she's going thru now. It would be major entertainment if it 
>> wasn't such a serious thing.
> 
> I've found that such situations are far too Disgusting to be funny.
> Kind of reminds me of some of the accounts of the details regarding 
> plane crashes - if it weren't for the tragedy, it might even be funny, 
> in a Silly, Stupid way.
> 
>> Well .....   yesterday didn't go too bad.  We don't play this weekend. 
>> I have some solo gigs next week, then the band is back at it on the 
>> weekend. We have two more gigs on this years deal at the SD.  If we get 
>> thru those without getting fired, then who knows.  It's all up to her 
>> maturity level. Can she work as an adult, or will her stubborn child 
>> inside blow it up ?
> 
> JimD
> 
> Depends on what kind of child ;)
> An episode, specifically "The Bellero shield" of one of my all time 
> favorite programs, "The Outer Limits", mentioned that courage, such as 
> to boldly explore and experiment, are reserved "for very small children 
> and very dedicated scientists". That's my attitude - both of those, and 
> it results in a certain level of maturity to preserve it without 
> becoming overcome with panic. If she were to adopt THAT kind of 
> maturity, it would no doubt bear some awesome results!
> 
> Ouisie


I'm quietly resigning myself to going on as a solo gig after she blows 
this trio up. That's ok with me.  I told her point blank, face to face 
last week that this is her problem, of her making. If she wants to blow 
the band up over refusing to let of of the volume thing, then it's on 
her head.

Only time will tell if that sunk in.

We can't work the better places and do it like we're in some low end biker bar.


JimD

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#15100

"Jim D"  wrote in message news:201904211009178493-Not@ThisAddresscom...

> I'm quietly resigning myself to going on as a solo gig after she blows 
> this trio up. That's ok with me.  I told her point blank, face to face 
> last week that this is her problem, of her making. If she wants to blow 
> the band up over refusing to let of of the volume thing, then it's on her 
> head.

Well then at least she knows.

> Only time will tell if that sunk in.

Hopefully there'll be enough time for it.

> We can't work the better places and do it like we're in some low end biker 
> bar.


JimD

Who needs the low life anyway?

Ouisie 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#15101

> 
> 
>> I'm quietly resigning myself to going on as a solo gig after she blows 
>> this trio up. That's ok with me.  I told her point blank, face to face 
>> last week that this is her problem, of her making. If she wants to blow 
>> the band up over refusing to let of of the volume thing, then it's on 
>> her head.
> 
> Well then at least she knows.
> 
>> Only time will tell if that sunk in.
> 
> Hopefully there'll be enough time for it.
> 
>> We can't work the better places and do it like we're in some low end biker bar.
> 
> 
> JimD
> 
> Who needs the low life anyway?
> 
> Ouisie


How many musical partnerships end over something as simple as this ?  
Probably a lot.   Trying to get hobbiests to act like serious players 
just isn't normally in the cards.  Too many see playing out as some 
sort of fantasy role playing thing or something.

From the audience it looks all just all fun, simple, easy. At least 
rock and roll.  I doubt people in the past going to a concert expected 
the orchestra to go all nuts during the performance. Nor did any sane 
person think that playing concert level violin was something any ol' 
anybody could do.

Times change.

Jim

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#15103

"Jim D"  wrote in message news:201904221458048635-Not@ThisAddresscom...

> How many musical partnerships end over something as simple as this ? 
> Probably a lot.

I'd say it depends entirely on the Maturity, or Imaturity level.

> Trying to get hobbiests to act like serious players just isn't normally in 
> the cards.  Too many see playing out as some sort of fantasy role playing 
> thing or something.

They're only fantasies until they become reality, which is why playing nice 
big concert venues is what I aspire to.
And it is a role to play - a very important one! Each performer has the role 
of bringing the Music to life and imparting it's Vibe, meaningfulness, and a 
trip into the Love Vibe, to the audience! That's no small task and 
definitely not one for the overgrown naughty, Stupid children who never grew 
up!

> From the audience it looks all just all fun, simple, easy. At least rock 
> and roll.

I believe if they truly found it to be that way, they'd endeavor to become 
performers and get into it too.
Personally, I observed that it's fun and much more...and anything but 
'easy', quite the opposite really - LOTS of Relentless Effort and unwavering 
Determination and Resolve- Hard Work, but much more than worth it because 
it's a Labor of Love!!!

> I doubt people in the past going to a concert expected the orchestra to go 
> all nuts during the performance. Nor did any sane person think that 
> playing concert level violin was something any ol' anybody could do.

I've heard it said, and wholeheartedly believe that concert goers go to 
concerts to be MOVED by the performance, a Vibe not fully preserved in a 
mere recording, which is why they buy concert tickets in addition to albums.

> Times change.

Jim

The change happens over time, but it's the Stupid people who change for the 
WORSE, as in Zombie Apocalypse.

Ouisie 

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#15109

> 
> 
>> How many musical partnerships end over something as simple as this ? 
>> Probably a lot.
> 
> I'd say it depends entirely on the Maturity, or Imaturity level.
> 
>> Trying to get hobbiests to act like serious players just isn't normally 
>> in the cards.  Too many see playing out as some sort of fantasy role 
>> playing thing or something.
> 
> They're only fantasies until they become reality, which is why playing 
> nice big concert venues is what I aspire to.
> And it is a role to play - a very important one! Each performer has the 
> role of bringing the Music to life and imparting it's Vibe, 
> meaningfulness, and a trip into the Love Vibe, to the audience! That's 
> no small task and definitely not one for the overgrown naughty, Stupid 
> children who never grew up!
> 
>> From the audience it looks all just all fun, simple, easy. At least 
>> rock and roll.
> 
> I believe if they truly found it to be that way, they'd endeavor to 
> become performers and get into it too.
> Personally, I observed that it's fun and much more...and anything but 
> 'easy', quite the opposite really - LOTS of Relentless Effort and 
> unwavering Determination and Resolve- Hard Work, but much more than 
> worth it because it's a Labor of Love!!!
> 
>> I doubt people in the past going to a concert expected the orchestra to 
>> go all nuts during the performance. Nor did any sane person think that 
>> playing concert level violin was something any ol' anybody could do.
> 
> I've heard it said, and wholeheartedly believe that concert goers go to 
> concerts to be MOVED by the performance, a Vibe not fully preserved in 
> a mere recording, which is why they buy concert tickets in addition to 
> albums.
> 
>> Times change.
> 
> Jim
> 
> The change happens over time, but it's the Stupid people who change for 
> the WORSE, as in Zombie Apocalypse.
> 
> Ouisie

Read somewhere that it takes, on average, 10,00 hours to be really good 
at something like playing an instrument. What is that, like 8 hours a 
day for 5 years ?   Sounds reasonable to get up to just competent 
level.  Becoming really stand out amazing is more than that. That takes 
that level of work PLUS some inborn thing called talent.

Not everyone can sing, or play well, no matter how they try.  Talent is 
a real thing.


JimD

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#15112

"Jim D"  wrote in message news:2019042509435832814-Not@ThisAddresscom...

> Read somewhere that it takes, on average, 10,00 hours to be really good at 
> something like playing an instrument. What is that, like 8 hours a day for 
> 5 years ?   Sounds reasonable to get up to just competent level.  Becoming 
> really stand out amazing is more than that. That takes that level of work 
> PLUS some inborn thing called talent.

> Not everyone can sing, or play well, no matter how they try.  Talent is a 
> real thing.


JimD

Not everyone is *disposed* to sing and/or play well, which also figures that 
no matter how much they try, their results will be limited due to their 
hearts not being fully into it, if they're not so disposed.

I have a different view of that. With extremely few, if any, exceptions, 
nobody is born with talent - it's far more likely to be born 'rich' i.e. 
'loaded' with Filthy Lucre, and speaking of which, I recall a preacher on 
the radio mentioning that an actual Biblical unit of Filthy Lucre, namely a 
"talent", was about as much as most people would earn in an entire year. 
Clearly, this related a monetary talent, or a skillful talent, to a lot of 
hard work, which I've personally discovered, as have you, to be the case 
where Music is concerned - or anything else requiring skill for that matter.

Rather, what one may be born with is the *aptitude* for those various 
activities, that a person may find they're *apt* to pursue.

But talent is something that Must be Earned by Diligent, Honest, and 
Dedicated effort over the long term, sustained by genuine Love for what 
they're doing, literally a Labor of Love...which is why Music makers so 
regularly practice, at least the ones worth listening to...to Increase and 
Improve their talent, and thus further enhance what they Truly Love.

Ouisie 

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#15132

> 
>> Read somewhere that it takes, on average, 10,00 hours to be really good 
>> at something like playing an instrument. What is that, like 8 hours a 
>> day for 5 years ?   Sounds reasonable to get up to just competent 
>> level.  Becoming really stand out amazing is more than that. That takes 
>> that level of work PLUS some inborn thing called talent.
> 
>> Not everyone can sing, or play well, no matter how they try.  Talent is 
>> a real thing.
> 
> 
> JimD
> 
> Not everyone is *disposed* to sing and/or play well, which also figures 
> that no matter how much they try, their results will be limited due to 
> their hearts not being fully into it, if they're not so disposed.
> 
> I have a different view of that. With extremely few, if any, 
> exceptions, nobody is born with talent - it's far more likely to be 
> born 'rich' i.e. 'loaded' with Filthy Lucre, and speaking of which, I 
> recall a preacher on the radio mentioning that an actual Biblical unit 
> of Filthy Lucre, namely a "talent", was about as much as most people 
> would earn in an entire year. Clearly, this related a monetary talent, 
> or a skillful talent, to a lot of hard work, which I've personally 
> discovered, as have you, to be the case where Music is concerned - or 
> anything else requiring skill for that matter.
> 
> Rather, what one may be born with is the *aptitude* for those various 
> activities, that a person may find they're *apt* to pursue.
> 
> But talent is something that Must be Earned by Diligent, Honest, and 
> Dedicated effort over the long term, sustained by genuine Love for what 
> they're doing, literally a Labor of Love...which is why Music makers so 
> regularly practice, at least the ones worth listening to...to Increase 
> and Improve their talent, and thus further enhance what they Truly Love.
> 
> Ouisie

This is one of those chicken or egg questions. Which comes first ?

When i taught guitar for a while, there were students that could easily 
pick things up, and others who were hopeless.  Maybe the hopeless ones 
didn't want to learn, or maybe it was just much harder for them so they 
gave up. I don't know.

JimD

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