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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #219533 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2021-11-01 13:52 -0400 |
| Last post | 2021-11-05 15:55 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 156 — 29 participants |
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Re: Who Knew ? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-01 13:52 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-01 21:40 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-01 19:27 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-02 05:19 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-11-01 17:38 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> - 2021-11-02 00:21 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-04 19:09 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? 1p166 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-02 00:11 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-02 06:17 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2021-11-02 10:16 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? 1p166 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-03 00:27 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-03 07:26 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-03 17:18 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-03 19:58 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-03 21:34 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-11-04 09:51 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2021-11-04 15:37 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 15:13 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-04 15:22 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 15:22 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 12:05 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-05 08:20 -1000
Re: Who Knew ? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-11-04 10:02 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 17:26 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-04 15:25 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-04 19:10 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 23:27 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-04 21:43 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2021-11-05 08:53 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 11:38 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 13:30 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-11-05 18:23 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 19:37 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Churchillian version John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-11-05 20:02 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 17:14 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-05 07:26 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 14:47 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-05 17:40 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 17:17 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-05 21:50 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 15:55 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-06 19:07 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-06 11:31 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-06 15:14 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-06 16:45 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 12:28 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2021-11-05 22:43 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-04 11:05 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 17:19 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-04 20:13 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-04 16:11 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 23:27 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 11:40 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-05 14:09 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 15:53 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-05 17:40 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 19:18 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-05 20:04 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-05 23:52 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-06 05:13 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 15:16 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? "Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-n7j-this> - 2021-11-04 07:17 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-11-04 15:47 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2021-11-04 20:34 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 23:27 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? "Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-m46-this> - 2021-11-05 07:08 -0800
Re: Who Knew ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-11-07 15:43 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-04 16:17 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 17:19 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-04 22:18 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2021-11-04 19:21 -0300
Re: Who Knew ? Leonard Blaisdell <leoblaisdell@sbcglobal.net> - 2021-11-05 05:46 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2021-11-05 04:01 -0300
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 15:27 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-04 16:11 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-05 07:29 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-04 15:12 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-04 16:11 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? 1p166 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-03 21:02 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2021-11-04 00:01 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-04 11:09 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2021-11-04 13:49 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-11-04 10:11 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-11-04 10:16 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-04 17:31 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-04 13:04 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 14:58 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-04 17:47 -1000
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 15:07 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 12:28 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 14:42 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-04 17:53 -1000
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 13:33 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 12:28 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-05 10:06 -1000
Re: Who Knew ? Robert Swindells <rjs@fdy2.co.uk> - 2021-11-06 15:38 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 17:39 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 15:55 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 19:33 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-06 12:17 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-06 14:45 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-06 15:28 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-06 18:52 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-07 08:54 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-07 10:07 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-06 08:26 -1000
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 22:05 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 15:55 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 12:04 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-04 18:32 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-06 19:25 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-07 11:20 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-07 08:55 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-07 10:15 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-07 23:44 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-08 15:39 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-11-08 17:06 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? lawrenabae@abaluon.abaom (Lawrence Statton (NK1G)) - 2021-11-09 19:06 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-08 09:51 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-08 10:52 -0700
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-08 19:14 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-08 12:09 -1000
Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-08 22:38 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-09 15:30 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-09 14:57 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-11 15:03 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-11 17:02 -1000
Re: Alternate Who Knew ? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-11-08 22:22 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-08 18:07 -0500
Re: military options, was Who Knew ? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-11-09 01:58 +0000
Re: military options, was Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-08 23:17 -0500
Re: military options, was Who Knew ? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-09 10:02 -0500
Re: military options, was Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-08 22:51 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-08 22:35 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-09 09:09 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2021-11-14 18:45 +0100
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-14 12:39 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-15 00:43 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-16 08:58 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-16 16:57 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-17 10:54 -0600
Re: Who Knew ? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-17 14:16 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-14 14:32 -0500
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-04 05:01 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2021-11-04 13:48 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-11-04 15:46 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2021-11-04 15:26 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? 1p166 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-04 23:51 -0400
Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-05 07:37 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2021-11-05 08:54 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-11-05 13:49 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-04 11:08 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-03 17:18 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2021-11-05 22:17 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 22:46 +0000
Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 15:55 -0700
Page 5 of 8 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 Next page →
| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-04 11:09 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <sm0f18$8se$4@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #219555 |
On 04/11/2021 05:01, Dave Garland wrote: > On 11/3/2021 8:02 PM, 1p166 wrote: > >> Goebbels ... Goring's interests rarely strayed from killing >> people ....... > > Goebbels was a good propagandist. Goering (former fighter ace) was more > of a junkie who was self-important. His was a perceptive observation: > >> Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is >> the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a >> simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or >> a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. >> Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of >> the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are >> being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and >> exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country. >> Hermann Goring > Goering or Göring - not Goring. That's what bulls do. -- In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone gets full Marx.
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| From | Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-04 13:49 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <iui6mdFqi9U2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #219559 |
On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 11:09:28 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 04/11/2021 05:01, Dave Garland wrote: >> On 11/3/2021 8:02 PM, 1p166 wrote: >> >>> Goebbels ... Goring's interests rarely strayed from killing >>> people ....... >> >> Goebbels was a good propagandist. Goering (former fighter ace) was more >> of a junkie who was self-important. His was a perceptive observation: >> >>> Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is >>> the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a >>> simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or >>> a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. >>> Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of >>> the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are >>> being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and >>> exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country. >>> Hermann Goring >> > Goering or Göring - not Goring. That's what bulls do. Or a place in Sussex. -- Using UNIX since v6 (1975)... Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| From | Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-04 10:11 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <8cd50e88-aa50-4323-b22f-468831e5b616n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #219555 |
On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 11:01:42 PM UTC-6, Dave Garland wrote: > Goebbels was a good propagandist. Goering (former fighter ace) was > more of a junkie who was self-important. His was a perceptive observation: > > Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders > > of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to > > drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, > > or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people > > can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you > > have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists > > for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same > > in every country. Perceptive, perhaps. But self-exculpatory, certainly. The Nazis were _lying_ about the Jews, about Czechoslovakia, about Poland, as they stirred up hostility in Germany to them. The French and British governments weren't lying about Germany having invaded Poland, a nation with large coal reserves which, if captured by Germany, would give it a strategic advantage. Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor. So, while the pattern Goering identified was hardly unique to the Nazi regime, it's still true that there's a difference between aggressive countries and peaceful ones. Democracies may stir the people up against threats that are not immediate, but they're rather less likely to engage in blatantly aggressive wars. John Savard
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| From | Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-04 10:16 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <68b1f3dd-3308-44f2-8879-3d15113cd14fn@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #219568 |
On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 11:11:46 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote: > Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor. And neither did Franklin Delano Roosevelt, which was my point. John Savard
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| From | Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-04 17:31 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrnso8682.28j.Greymaus@dmaus.org> |
| In reply to | #219568 |
On 2021-11-04, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote: > On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 11:01:42 PM UTC-6, Dave Garland wrote: > >> Goebbels was a good propagandist. Goering (former fighter ace) was >> more of a junkie who was self-important. His was a perceptive observation: > >> > Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders >> > of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to >> > drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, >> > or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people >> > can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you >> > have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists >> > for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same >> > in every country. > > Perceptive, perhaps. But self-exculpatory, certainly. > > The Nazis were _lying_ about the Jews, about Czechoslovakia, about Poland, > as they stirred up hostility in Germany to them. The Polish corridor was a problem that the natzis used as an excuse to attack poland, but it was a real problem. Large parts of Czechslovakian were German speaking , The Austria-Hungarian Empire, which cz* had been created fro, was multiethnic. The German speakers were driven out after the war, and some of them, that moved to the Ruhr area, did very well since. > > The French and British governments weren't lying about Germany having > invaded Poland, a nation with large coal reserves which, if captured by > Germany, would give it a strategic advantage. > > Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor. What did he think would happen after he banned scrap iron exports to Japan?.. The US navy should have been placed at high allert, but was not. (The irony was that the Japanese used some of their steel to build superbattleships which were by then outdated) > > So, while the pattern Goering identified was hardly unique to the Nazi regime, > it's still true that there's a difference between aggressive countries and peaceful > ones. Democracies may stir the people up against threats that are not immediate, > but they're rather less likely to engage in blatantly aggressive wars. > > John Savard War is an evil, cruel thing. Remember the Delphic prophesy "If you go to war, a great empire will be destroyed" -- greymausg@mail.com That's not a mousehole!
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| From | D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-04 13:04 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <vq78og1040hgd9c0m7fs6k7iok2p9qloie@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #219573 |
On 4 Nov 2021 17:31:46 GMT, Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> wrote: >On 2021-11-04, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote: >> On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 11:01:42 PM UTC-6, Dave Garland wrote: >> >>> Goebbels was a good propagandist. Goering (former fighter ace) was >>> more of a junkie who was self-important. His was a perceptive observation: >> >>> > Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders >>> > of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to >>> > drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, >>> > or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people >>> > can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you >>> > have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists >>> > for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same >>> > in every country. >> >> Perceptive, perhaps. But self-exculpatory, certainly. >> >> The Nazis were _lying_ about the Jews, about Czechoslovakia, about Poland, >> as they stirred up hostility in Germany to them. > >The Polish corridor was a problem that the natzis used as an excuse to >attack poland, but it was a real problem. > >Large parts of Czechslovakian were German speaking , The Austria-Hungarian Empire, >which cz* had been created fro, was multiethnic. The German speakers >were driven out after the war, and some of them, that moved to the Ruhr >area, did very well since. >> >> The French and British governments weren't lying about Germany having >> invaded Poland, a nation with large coal reserves which, if captured by >> Germany, would give it a strategic advantage. >> >> Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor. > >What did he think would happen after he banned scrap iron exports to >Japan?.. The US navy should have been placed at high allert, but was >not. > >(The irony was that the Japanese used some of their steel to build >superbattleships which were by then outdated) [snip] You might look up a book, I have it but don't remember the exact title, which is basically titled 'the 31 days of January, 1941'. Each chapter is a day in that month. It shows the US totally unprepared, and the delusional and/or idiotic lack of preparedness on the US West coast, and the continued lack of preparedness throughout WW2. The general out there, who foamed at the mouth until citizens of Japanese ancestry were forcibly moved to concentration camps, was not only a liar, but incompetent. Also many alerts for Japanese aircraft that weren't there. And when Japanese submarines showed up, with aircraft, no one seemed to notice until they left.
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| From | Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-05 14:58 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrnsoahl6.7q3.Greymaus@dmaus.org> |
| In reply to | #219574 |
On 2021-11-04, D.J <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote: > On 4 Nov 2021 17:31:46 GMT, Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> wrote: >>On 2021-11-04, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote: >>> On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 11:01:42 PM UTC-6, Dave Garland wrote: >>> >>>> Goebbels was a good propagandist. Goering (former fighter ace) was >>>> more of a junkie who was self-important. His was a perceptive observation: >>> > > You might look up a book, I have it but don't remember the exact > title, which is basically titled 'the 31 days of January, 1941'. > > Each chapter is a day in that month. It shows the US totally > unprepared, and the delusional and/or idiotic lack of preparedness on > the US West coast, and the continued lack of preparedness throughout > WW2. > > The general out there, who foamed at the mouth until citizens of > Japanese ancestry were forcibly moved to concentration camps, was not > only a liar, but incompetent. Also many alerts for Japanese aircraft > that weren't there. And when Japanese submarines showed up, with > aircraft, no one seemed to notice until they left. I was a member of the local history club. I gave up, because when I was growing up, I had heard of what really happened from old people around, from all sides. A lot of that has been officially scrambled into an approved fform as the old people died off, that would have known the real stories. History repeats itself. The current fashion of using the cloud for back resembles the time at the birth of the `micros', when IBM wanted them to be parts of an official network, and Microsoft took over the business. The recent exit from Kabul reminded me of the stories of the time the British pulled out of Dublin, and a varied group of people tried to get out at the same time. -- greymausg@mail.com That's not a mousehole!
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| From | Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-04 17:47 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <874k8r462g.fsf@localhost> |
| In reply to | #219573 |
Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> writes: > What did he think would happen after he banned scrap iron exports to > Japan?.. The US navy should have been placed at high allert, but was > not. Story that (asst. SECTREAS) Harry Dexter White was also operating on behalf of Stalin ... Stalin had sent White draft of ten demands to include in US ultimatum hoping to provoke Japan into opening a war with US ... Stalin was already dealing with 3/4ths of German military in the west and was worried that Japan would open a second front in the east. Hull Note https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_note Harry Dexter White & Venona intercepts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Dexter_White#Venona_project More Venona https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project https://www.nsa.gov/news-features/declassified-documents/venona/ Benn Stein in "The Battle of Bretton Woods" spends pages 55-58 discussing "Operation Snow". https://www.amazon.com/Battle-Bretton-Woods-Relations-University-ebook/dp/B00B5ZQ72Y/ pg56/loc1065-66: The Soviets had, according to Karpov, used White to provoke Japan to attack the United States. The scheme even had a name: "Operation Snow," snow referring to White. ... snip ... also: Another example of White acting as an agent of influence for the Soviet Union was his obstruction of an authorized $200 million loan to Nationalist China in 1943, which he had been officially instructed to execute. ... contributing to Nationalist loosing China. The Japanese Surrender in 1945 is Still Poorly Understood https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/181372 General Dwight Eisenhower, in his memoirs, recalled a visit from Secretary of War Henry Stimson in late July 1945: "I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face.'" Eisenhower reiterated the point years later in a Newsweek interview in 1963, saying that "the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing." ... snip ... Mythmaking and the Atomic Destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/08/06/mythmaking-and-the-atomic-destruction-of-hiroshima-and-nagasaki/ Reality: Hiroshima and Nagasaki were destroyed to prevent the Soviets from making a contribution to the victory against Japan, which would have forced Washington to allow Moscow to participate in the postwar occupation and reconstruction of the country. It was also the intention to intimidate the Soviet leadership and thus to wrest concessions from it with respect to the postwar arrangements in Germany and Eastern Europe. Finally, it was not the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but the Soviet entry into the war against Japan, which caused Tokyo to surrender. ... snip ... Apparently Roosevelt didn't believe that US could defeat Japan without Soviets and had agreement with Stalin where Soviet would come in against Japan after the Germans had been defeated. Other reference "The Cover-Up at Omaha Beach" https://www.amazon.com/Cover-Up-Omaha-Beach-Rangers-Battery-ebook/dp/B00J75ISNU/ Soviets sent 1.5M troops into Manchuria and quickly defeated million Japanese troops and were within three days of invading Japanese homeland when the bombs were dropped. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Manchuria By comparison US had 600k toops and battleships for Okinawa against 76k Japanese (and US was months away from mounting a homeland invasion) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa The War Was Won Before Hiroshima--And the Generals Who Dropped the Bomb Knew It. Seventy years after the bombing, will Americans face the brutal truth? https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-the-us-really-bombed-hiroshima/ -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
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| From | Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-05 15:07 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrnsoai5s.7q3.Greymaus@dmaus.org> |
| In reply to | #219595 |
On 2021-11-05, Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote: > Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> writes: >> What did he think would happen after he banned scrap iron exports to >> Japan?.. The US navy should have been placed at high allert, but was >> not. > > Story that (asst. SECTREAS) Harry Dexter White was also operating on > behalf of Stalin ... Stalin had sent White draft of ten demands to > include in US ultimatum hoping to provoke Japan into opening a war with > US ... Stalin was already dealing with 3/4ths of German military in the > west and was worried that Japan would open a second front in the > east. Hull Note > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_note > Harry Dexter White & Venona intercepts > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Dexter_White#Venona_project > More Venona > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project > https://www.nsa.gov/news-features/declassified-documents/venona/ > > Benn Stein in "The Battle of Bretton Woods" spends pages 55-58 > discussing "Operation Snow". > https://www.amazon.com/Battle-Bretton-Woods-Relations-University-ebook/dp/B00B5ZQ72Y/ > pg56/loc1065-66: > > The Soviets had, according to Karpov, used White to provoke Japan to > attack the United States. The scheme even had a name: "Operation Snow," > snow referring to White. > > ... snip ... > > also: Another example of White acting as an agent of influence for the > Soviet Union was his obstruction of an authorized $200 million loan to > Nationalist China in 1943, which he had been officially instructed to > execute. ... contributing to Nationalist loosing China. > Good to hear from ye again.! (I wonder how /BAH is?.) Decisive point in WWII was first week of December, when germans had to retreat from Moscow. All after that was just delay from the inevitable. Hitler tried to emulate Frederic Gross's successful seven years awar. Frederic was a competant man, Hitler was an insane bigot. -- greymausg@mail.com That's not a mousehole!
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| From | Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-05 12:28 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <1915810639.657832012.863904.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #219595 |
Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote: > Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> writes: >> What did he think would happen after he banned scrap iron exports to >> Japan?.. The US navy should have been placed at high allert, but was >> not. > > Story that (asst. SECTREAS) Harry Dexter White was also operating on > behalf of Stalin ... Stalin had sent White draft of ten demands to > include in US ultimatum hoping to provoke Japan into opening a war with > US ... Stalin was already dealing with 3/4ths of German military in the > west and was worried that Japan would open a second front in the > east. From _Midway_, it appears the Japanese were just waiting for a German victory in the Caucus or the Middle East to link up with them and open a second front. -- Pete
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| From | D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-05 14:42 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <762bog95brnigoaq7k7o093dj9n0md46t7@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #219627 |
On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:28:17 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote: >Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote: >> Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> writes: >>> What did he think would happen after he banned scrap iron exports to >>> Japan?.. The US navy should have been placed at high allert, but was >>> not. >> >> Story that (asst. SECTREAS) Harry Dexter White was also operating on >> behalf of Stalin ... Stalin had sent White draft of ten demands to >> include in US ultimatum hoping to provoke Japan into opening a war with >> US ... Stalin was already dealing with 3/4ths of German military in the >> west and was worried that Japan would open a second front in the >> east. > >From _Midway_, it appears the Japanese were just waiting for a German >victory in the Caucus or the Middle East to link up with them and open a >second front. Japan attacked India, and Germany attack Egypt. From what I have read, that is the direction they were going to do the link up.
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| From | Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-04 17:53 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <87wnln2r7g.fsf@localhost> |
| In reply to | #219573 |
Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> writes: > (The irony was that the Japanese used some of their steel to build > superbattleships which were by then outdated) The Age of Battleships Is Dead and Long Gone. Battleships were mighty in their day. But the advent of airplanes and missiles meant that such large, lumbering warships made no sense anymore. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/age-battleships-dead-and-long-gone-189247 The Ultimate Battleship Battle: Japan's Yamato vs. America's Iowa. It would have been the ultimate battle on the high seas: Yamato vs. Iowa. Who would have won? http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-ultimate-battleship-battle-japans-yamato-vs-americas-13737 recommends Parshall's Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway https://www.amazon.com/Shattered-Sword-Untold-Battle-Japanese-ebook/dp/B005NIQ8SM/ pg5/loc76-78: The battleships wouldn’t be sailing this morning. No surprise there, joked Akagi’s crewmen–they hadn’t done anything during the entire war. For them the battleships were irrelevant, nothing more than a symbol of a bygone era. Worse yet, in the workaholic culture of the Imperial Navy, which, popular lore had it, operated eight days a week, the battleships were seen as slackers. ... snip ... ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers. -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
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| From | J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-05 13:33 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <8mqaogt2dg9p16lt3pjv8nv6qif0gr8snc@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #219597 |
On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 17:53:39 -1000, Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote: >Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> writes: >> (The irony was that the Japanese used some of their steel to build >> superbattleships which were by then outdated) > >The Age of Battleships Is Dead and Long Gone. Battleships were mighty in >their day. But the advent of airplanes and missiles meant that such >large, lumbering warships made no sense anymore. >https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/age-battleships-dead-and-long-gone-189247 > >The Ultimate Battleship Battle: Japan's Yamato vs. America's Iowa. It >would have been the ultimate battle on the high seas: Yamato >vs. Iowa. Who would have won? >http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-ultimate-battleship-battle-japans-yamato-vs-americas-13737 >recommends Parshall's Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway >https://www.amazon.com/Shattered-Sword-Untold-Battle-Japanese-ebook/dp/B005NIQ8SM/ >pg5/loc76-78: > >The battleships wouldn’t be sailing this morning. No surprise there, >joked Akagi’s crewmen–they hadn’t done anything during the entire >war. For them the battleships were irrelevant, nothing more than a >symbol of a bygone era. Worse yet, in the workaholic culture of the >Imperial Navy, which, popular lore had it, operated eight days a week, >the battleships were seen as slackers. > >... snip ... > >... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the >bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to >carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of >large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers. And the battleships, and the cruiser, and the destroyers, and the LSTs and the LSMs and the Liberty ships and the Victory ships and just about everything else.
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| From | Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-05 12:28 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <1807090202.657832217.546674.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #219597 |
Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote: > > ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the > bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to > carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of > large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers. > I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which never happened. -- Pete
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| From | Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-05 10:06 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <87v916z7tb.fsf@localhost> |
| In reply to | #219628 |
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes: > I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the > Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be > secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which > never happened. ... after finding the US carriers weren't in port, the Japanese carriers fleeing to the north from Hawaii, were lucky because the US carriers had started hunting west of the islands -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
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| From | Robert Swindells <rjs@fdy2.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-06 15:38 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <sm67h0$g9r$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #219635 |
On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 10:06:08 -1000, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: > Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes: >> I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the >> Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be >> secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, >> which never happened. > > ... after finding the US carriers weren't in port, the Japanese carriers > fleeing to the north from Hawaii, were lucky because the US carriers had > started hunting west of the islands The US carriers were lucky that they didn't find the Japanese fleet. US carrier aircraft then were much less advanced than the ones shot down at Midway. In contrast, the Indian Ocean Raid is usually presented as a lucky escape for the Royal Navy but it had a lot of experience of doing radar guided night attacks and fighter interceptions by that stage of the war.
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| From | J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-05 17:39 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <nv7bog9an9h9gmbdp36mc34put6k3a39gc@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #219628 |
On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:28:18 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote: >Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote: >> >> ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the >> bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to >> carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of >> large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers. >> > >I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the >Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be >secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which >never happened. The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there somewhere. Were they hunting him?
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| From | Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-05 15:55 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <314107042.657845213.936000.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #219639 |
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:28:18 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> > wrote: > >> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote: >>> >>> ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the >>> bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to >>> carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of >>> large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers. >>> >> >> I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the >> Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be >> secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which >> never happened. > > The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there > somewhere. Were they hunting him? > The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I guess 80 years is long enough that I can talk about this dispassionately. I probably won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without anger. -- Pete
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| From | J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-05 19:33 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <uudbog5kevqiv3cbak65jiuu7qsml2viik@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #219645 |
On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:55:52 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote: >J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:28:18 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the >>>> bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to >>>> carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of >>>> large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers. >>>> >>> >>> I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the >>> Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be >>> secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which >>> never happened. >> >> The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there >> somewhere. Were they hunting him? >> > >The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I guess 80 >years is long enough that I can talk about this dispassionately. I probably >won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without anger. Third strike. There were two strikes. The third was called off due to shortage of fuel, concern about the increasing effectiveness of the defenses, being within range of land-based air, and the question of where the carriers were.
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| From | D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-11-06 12:17 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <i3edoglpjl62b7qjcl3jscle1gne1taail@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #219649 |
On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 19:33:20 -0400, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:55:52 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> >wrote: > >>J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >>> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:28:18 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the >>>>> bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to >>>>> carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of >>>>> large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the >>>> Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be >>>> secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which >>>> never happened. >>> >>> The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there >>> somewhere. Were they hunting him? >>> >> >>The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I guess 80 >>years is long enough that I can talk about this dispassionately. I probably >>won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without anger. > >Third strike. There were two strikes. The third was called off due >to shortage of fuel, concern about the increasing effectiveness of the >defenses, being within range of land-based air, and the question of >where the carriers were. He also said that they had lost the element of surprise. 29 IJN aircraft were shot down. A third strike would have resulted in more.
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