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Debugging Adventure using Address Break

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  Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-19 13:23 +0000
    Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-03-20 06:46 +1100
      Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-20 13:56 +0000
        Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-03-21 04:51 +1100
          Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-21 12:24 +0000
            Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-03-21 13:53 +0100
              Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-03-22 04:23 +1100
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-22 13:40 +0000
                  Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-03-23 05:01 +1100
              Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Rob Doyle <radioengr@gmail.com> - 2016-03-22 01:50 -0700
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-03-22 13:22 +0100
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-22 13:40 +0000
              Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-22 13:40 +0000
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-03-26 07:32 +0000
            Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-03-22 04:24 +1100
            Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-03-22 10:20 -0500
              Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-23 13:23 +0000
    Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-21 13:58 +0000
    Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-21 14:00 +0000
      Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-22 13:40 +0000
        Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-03-22 10:24 -0500
    Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-03-22 07:19 +0000
    Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-03-22 07:19 +0000
      Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-03-22 13:20 +0100
      Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-22 13:40 +0000
        Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-03-23 04:55 +1100
        Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-03-26 07:32 +0000
          Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-03-26 09:55 +0100
            Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-26 13:24 +0000
              Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-03-27 04:11 +1100
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-27 13:26 +0000
                  Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 04:25 +1100
                  Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-03-28 15:58 -0500
                    Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-29 13:55 +0000
                      Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-03-29 17:17 +0200
                        Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-30 13:58 +0000
                      Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-29 16:17 +0000
                        Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-03-29 17:57 +0100
                      Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-03-29 17:14 +0000
                        Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-03-29 17:17 +0000
                        Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-29 17:48 +0000
                          Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Ibmekon <Ibmekon> - 2016-03-29 21:35 +0100
                          Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-03-29 23:20 +0000
                            Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-03-30 05:33 +0100
                              Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-30 17:23 +1100
                        Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Ibmekon <Ibmekon> - 2016-03-29 19:28 +0100
                          Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-03-31 11:10 -0500
                            Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Ibmekon <Ibmekon> - 2016-03-31 19:20 +0100
                        Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-30 13:58 +0000
                          Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-03-30 16:32 +0000
                            Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-30 16:55 +0000
                              Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-31 04:09 +1100
                                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-03-31 06:22 +0000
                                  Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-03-31 11:13 -0500
                                    Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-31 21:00 -0500
                          Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-31 03:49 +1100
                      Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-03-30 05:29 +1100
                        Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-30 13:58 +0000
                          Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-03-31 03:41 +1100
                            Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-31 12:41 +0000
                              Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-04-01 05:03 +1100
                  Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-04-15 08:34 +0000

Page 2 of 4 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3 4  Next page →

#161343

"jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message 
news:PM00052EA2F4D4E0D1@aca410ea.ipt.aol.com...
> Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>>>Subject says it all.  There is a caveat:  Since all debugging steps are
>>>dependent on the feedback of the last n steps, I cannot be precise
>>>and I will try to document the assumption I make based on a fictional
>>>feedback with each debugging steps.
>>>
>>>The first step is to find out how and where ADVENT keeps track of
>>>points.  There are many, many ways to do this.  Note that the
>>>maximum number of points is 256 which suggests 256 bits are assigned
>>>to keep track of which point in the game action has been achieved.
>>
>> Given that the maximum number of points is 350[*], the rest of the
>> post seems to not be relevent.
>>
>> [*] See source code posted in Message-ID: 
>> <56ec937f.654481@nntp2.rawbw.com>
>
> That was the second rendition of the program.
>

350 points is the score in the widely know Original Colossal Cave Adventure, 
the one that Don Woods put out in 1977.  Someone here could drop an email to 
Don and ask if there ever was a 256 point adventure.  I myself doubt there 
was.

-- 

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

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#161317

The First Rule of Holes:  if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

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#161318

On 19 Mar 2016 13:23:27 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>If you did think you needed DDT, then you would have to go
>to a TOPS-20 system,  and type:
>
>GET ADVENT
>DDT
>^C
>SAVE ADVENT

You can do the same thing on TOPS-10 and you don't need to save the image with
DDT.


>Then you can look using DDT commands but there won't be
>symbols with this program.

Whether or not the .EXE has symbols included has nothing to do with loading DDT.


>depending on the code.  One does not need DDT loaded with
>the EXE to do any of the debugging.  I probably would not
>want DDT in my address space because it's extra code
>to ignore and it does strange things with one's adddress space.

DDT doesn't do "strange things" with the address space.  The DDT command
loads DDT into the top of the address space and transfers program control to its
start address.

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#161324

In article <56f0f20d.1619358@nntp2.rawbw.com>, Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>On 19 Mar 2016 13:23:27 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>If you did think you needed DDT, then you would have to go
>>to a TOPS-20 system,  and type:
>>
>>GET ADVENT
>>DDT
>>^C
>>SAVE ADVENT
>
>You can do the same thing on TOPS-10 and you don't need to save the image with
>DDT.
>
>
>>Then you can look using DDT commands but there won't be
>>symbols with this program.
>
>Whether or not the .EXE has symbols included has nothing to do with loading DDT.
>
>
>>depending on the code.  One does not need DDT loaded with
>>the EXE to do any of the debugging.  I probably would not
>>want DDT in my address space because it's extra code
>>to ignore and it does strange things with one's adddress space.
>
>DDT doesn't do "strange things" with the address space.  The DDT command
>loads DDT into the top of the address space and transfers program control to its
>start address.

And all other programs avoid that address space, because every developer
will know that sooner or later you will need to invoke DDT on the program.

It is not even a linkage step. DDT has it's own inteface to symbols
and reloctables. It is just a merge-load and a start. Both on tops10
and on tops20.

-- mrr

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#161331

Questor wrote:
> On 19 Mar 2016 13:23:27 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>If you did think you needed DDT, then you would have to go
>>to a TOPS-20 system,  and type:
>>
>>GET ADVENT
>>DDT
>>^C
>>SAVE ADVENT
>
> You can do the same thing on TOPS-10 and you don't need to save the image
with
> DDT.
>
>
>>Then you can look using DDT commands but there won't be
>>symbols with this program.
>
> Whether or not the .EXE has symbols included has nothing to do with loading
DDT.
>
>
>>depending on the code.  One does not need DDT loaded with
>>the EXE to do any of the debugging.  I probably would not
>>want DDT in my address space because it's extra code
>>to ignore and it does strange things with one's adddress space.
>
> DDT doesn't do "strange things" with the address space.  The DDT command
> loads DDT into the top of the address space and transfers program control to
its
> start address.

Having DDT loaded with the program on TOPS-10 makes the exe writable and
the addresses of the program's code and data may not be the same absolute
addresses when DDT is not part of the EXE.

This is a pure EXE.  You don't know if absolute addressing was used or
if SETUWP was used if the points were kept in the EXE.

Instead of trying to "prove" me wrong, why don't you try debugging
the fucking program?

/BAH

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#161361

"jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message 
news:PM00052EA36003CE62@aca410ea.ipt.aol.com...
> Questor wrote:
>> On 19 Mar 2016 13:23:27 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>If you did think you needed DDT, then you would have to go
>>>to a TOPS-20 system,  and type:
>>>
>>>GET ADVENT
>>>DDT
>>>^C
>>>SAVE ADVENT
>>
>> You can do the same thing on TOPS-10 and you don't need to save the image
> with
>> DDT.
>>
>>
>>>Then you can look using DDT commands but there won't be
>>>symbols with this program.
>>
>> Whether or not the .EXE has symbols included has nothing to do with 
>> loading
> DDT.
>>
>>
>>>depending on the code.  One does not need DDT loaded with
>>>the EXE to do any of the debugging.  I probably would not
>>>want DDT in my address space because it's extra code
>>>to ignore and it does strange things with one's adddress space.
>>
>> DDT doesn't do "strange things" with the address space.  The DDT command
>> loads DDT into the top of the address space and transfers program control 
>> to
> its
>> start address.
>
> Having DDT loaded with the program on TOPS-10 makes the exe writable and
> the addresses of the program's code and data may not be the same absolute
> addresses when DDT is not part of the EXE.
>
> This is a pure EXE.  You don't know if absolute addressing was used or
> if SETUWP was used if the points were kept in the EXE.
>
> Instead of trying to "prove" me wrong, why don't you try debugging
> the fucking program?

Because doing that is completely useless when testing your claim
that using SET BREAK ALONE can find the last point. It can't and
if it could you would be able to show how to do that and you
haven't been able to do that with your irrelevant waffle that
you always end up with when even you realise that you are
just plain wrong and start claiming no one understands. 

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#161492

On 22 Mar 2016 13:40:37 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>Questor wrote:
>> On 19 Mar 2016 13:23:27 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>If you did think you needed DDT, then you would have to go
>>>to a TOPS-20 system,  and type:
>>>
>>>GET ADVENT
>>>DDT
>>>^C
>>>SAVE ADVENT
>>
>> You can do the same thing on TOPS-10 and you don't need to save the image
>with
>> DDT.
>>
>>>Then you can look using DDT commands but there won't be
>>>symbols with this program.
>>
>> Whether or not the .EXE has symbols included has nothing to do with loading
>DDT.
>>
>>>depending on the code.  One does not need DDT loaded with
>>>the EXE to do any of the debugging.  I probably would not
>>>want DDT in my address space because it's extra code
>>>to ignore and it does strange things with one's adddress space.
>>
>> DDT doesn't do "strange things" with the address space.  The DDT command
>> loads DDT into the top of the address space and transfers program control to
>> its start address.
>
>Having DDT loaded with the program on TOPS-10 makes the exe writable and
>the addresses of the program's code and data may not be the same absolute
>addresses when DDT is not part of the EXE.

Having DDT loaded with the program does not make the .EXE writeable.
Having DDT loaded does not change the addresses of code or data.
Neither of these are relevant to the discussion at hand.


>This is a pure EXE.  You don't know if absolute addressing was used or
>if SETUWP was used if the points were kept in the EXE.

Please tell us, what would be an impure .EXE?

An .EXE file by definition uses absolute addresses.  That's what LINK does.  It
takes as input the relocatable code from .REL files and resolves the addresses.
The resulting .EXE can be slapped directly into memory with a series of block
transfers and then executed.

It is highly unlike a SETUWP would be used in a FORTRAN program.

Again, none of this is relevant to the discussion at hand.  You demonstrate
no comprehension of the issue, and rather than admit your ignorance, you throw
out unrelated crap and pretend you know what you're talking about.


>Instead of trying to "prove" me wrong, why don't you try debugging
>the fucking program?

No one has to prove you wrong.  It's been clearly demonstrated.  You are
either too obstinate, too ignorant -- or both -- to recognize it.

Go back and read the code fragment again.  It's FORTRAN, even you should
be able to figure it out.  To begin with, the program doesn't even store the
score.  It's only calculated when needed.

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#161493

In article <56f63b00.8472873@nntp2.rawbw.com>, Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>On 22 Mar 2016 13:40:37 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>Questor wrote:
>>> On 19 Mar 2016 13:23:27 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>If you did think you needed DDT, then you would have to go
>>>>to a TOPS-20 system,  and type:
>>>>
>>>>GET ADVENT
>>>>DDT
>>>>^C
>>>>SAVE ADVENT
>>>
>>> You can do the same thing on TOPS-10 and you don't need to save the image
>>with
>>> DDT.
>>>
>>>>Then you can look using DDT commands but there won't be
>>>>symbols with this program.
>>>
>>> Whether or not the .EXE has symbols included has nothing to do with loading
>>DDT.
>>>
>>>>depending on the code.  One does not need DDT loaded with
>>>>the EXE to do any of the debugging.  I probably would not
>>>>want DDT in my address space because it's extra code
>>>>to ignore and it does strange things with one's adddress space.
>>>
>>> DDT doesn't do "strange things" with the address space.  The DDT command
>>> loads DDT into the top of the address space and transfers program control to
>>> its start address.
>>
>>Having DDT loaded with the program on TOPS-10 makes the exe writable and
>>the addresses of the program's code and data may not be the same absolute
>>addresses when DDT is not part of the EXE.
>
>Having DDT loaded with the program does not make the .EXE writeable.
>Having DDT loaded does not change the addresses of code or data.
>Neither of these are relevant to the discussion at hand.

It is the other way around; at least in Tops20. You must have the
image readable (not execute-only) to load DDT on it. With DDT loaded
you can then save it as a different .EXE.

>>This is a pure EXE.  You don't know if absolute addressing was used or
>>if SETUWP was used if the points were kept in the EXE.
>
>Please tell us, what would be an impure .EXE?

In Tops20, it is one that has been modified since the initial load from
disk. By executing, patching or loading of debuggers, like DDT.

>An .EXE file by definition uses absolute addresses.  That's what LINK does.  It
>takes as input the relocatable code from .REL files and resolves the addresses.
>The resulting .EXE can be slapped directly into memory with a series of block
>transfers and then executed.
>
>It is highly unlike a SETUWP would be used in a FORTRAN program.
>
>Again, none of this is relevant to the discussion at hand.  You demonstrate
>no comprehension of the issue, and rather than admit your ignorance, you throw
>out unrelated crap and pretend you know what you're talking about.
>
>
>>Instead of trying to "prove" me wrong, why don't you try debugging
>>the fucking program?
>
>No one has to prove you wrong.  It's been clearly demonstrated.  You are
>either too obstinate, too ignorant -- or both -- to recognize it.
>
>Go back and read the code fragment again.  It's FORTRAN, even you should
>be able to figure it out.  To begin with, the program doesn't even store the
>score.  It's only calculated when needed.

And this is why you need address breaks to figure it out rapidly when you only
have the binary. Once you find the calculation code you can go look for
references to the various variables it uses.

The pdp10 code compiled from fortran code was pretty easy to understand, at least
on lower levels of optimisation.

-- mrr

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#161496

Morten Reistad wrote:
> In article <56f63b00.8472873@nntp2.rawbw.com>, Questor <usenet@only.tnx>
wrote:
>>On 22 Mar 2016 13:40:37 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>Questor wrote:
>>>> On 19 Mar 2016 13:23:27 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>If you did think you needed DDT, then you would have to go
>>>>>to a TOPS-20 system,  and type:
>>>>>
>>>>>GET ADVENT
>>>>>DDT
>>>>>^C
>>>>>SAVE ADVENT
>>>>
>>>> You can do the same thing on TOPS-10 and you don't need to save the image
>>>with
>>>> DDT.
>>>>
>>>>>Then you can look using DDT commands but there won't be
>>>>>symbols with this program.
>>>>
>>>> Whether or not the .EXE has symbols included has nothing to do with
loading
>>>DDT.
>>>>
>>>>>depending on the code.  One does not need DDT loaded with
>>>>>the EXE to do any of the debugging.  I probably would not
>>>>>want DDT in my address space because it's extra code
>>>>>to ignore and it does strange things with one's adddress space.
>>>>
>>>> DDT doesn't do "strange things" with the address space.  The DDT command
>>>> loads DDT into the top of the address space and transfers program control
to
>>>> its start address.
>>>
>>>Having DDT loaded with the program on TOPS-10 makes the exe writable and
>>>the addresses of the program's code and data may not be the same absolute
>>>addresses when DDT is not part of the EXE.
>>
>>Having DDT loaded with the program does not make the .EXE writeable.
>>Having DDT loaded does not change the addresses of code or data.
>>Neither of these are relevant to the discussion at hand.
>
> It is the other way around; at least in Tops20. You must have the
> image readable (not execute-only) to load DDT on it. With DDT loaded
> you can then save it as a different .EXE.

Yea, he's confused.
>
>>>This is a pure EXE.  You don't know if absolute addressing was used or
>>>if SETUWP was used if the points were kept in the EXE.
>>
>>Please tell us, what would be an impure .EXE?
>
> In Tops20, it is one that has been modified since the initial load from
> disk. By executing, patching or loading of debuggers, like DDT.

And it can't be sharable on TOPS-10.  Since the code is FORTRAN, the OTS
is sharable.  I think you could get around it on the -20.

>
>>An .EXE file by definition uses absolute addresses.  That's what LINK does.
It
>>takes as input the relocatable code from .REL files and resolves the
addresses.
>>The resulting .EXE can be slapped directly into memory with a series of
block
>>transfers and then executed.
>>
>>It is highly unlike a SETUWP would be used in a FORTRAN program.
>>
>>Again, none of this is relevant to the discussion at hand.  You demonstrate
>>no comprehension of the issue, and rather than admit your ignorance, you
throw
>>out unrelated crap and pretend you know what you're talking about.
>>
>>
>>>Instead of trying to "prove" me wrong, why don't you try debugging
>>>the fucking program?
>>
>>No one has to prove you wrong.  It's been clearly demonstrated.  You are
>>either too obstinate, too ignorant -- or both -- to recognize it.
>>
>>Go back and read the code fragment again.  It's FORTRAN, even you should
>>be able to figure it out.  To begin with, the program doesn't even store the
>>score.  It's only calculated when needed.
>
> And this is why you need address breaks to figure it out rapidly when you
only
> have the binary. Once you find the calculation code you can go look for
> references to the various variables it uses.

You can also set a mask and break when a particular bit is referenced.
>
> The pdp10 code compiled from fortran code was pretty easy to understand, at
least
> on lower levels of optimisation.

Reading code and determining when it's invoked (such as setting a bit for
a score) can be complicated if it involves 3 conditions :-).  IIRC,
the point was set when a vase was placed on a pillow in a particular
room.  That's 3 conditions: the vase and pillow had to be acquired
and then the room where they were to be placed had to be found.

/BAH

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#161500

"jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message 
news:PM00052EF36C99680E@aca40d98.ipt.aol.com...
> Morten Reistad wrote:
>> In article <56f63b00.8472873@nntp2.rawbw.com>, Questor <usenet@only.tnx>
> wrote:
>>>On 22 Mar 2016 13:40:37 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>Questor wrote:
>>>>> On 19 Mar 2016 13:23:27 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>>If you did think you needed DDT, then you would have to go
>>>>>>to a TOPS-20 system,  and type:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>GET ADVENT
>>>>>>DDT
>>>>>>^C
>>>>>>SAVE ADVENT
>>>>>
>>>>> You can do the same thing on TOPS-10 and you don't need to save the 
>>>>> image
>>>>with
>>>>> DDT.
>>>>>
>>>>>>Then you can look using DDT commands but there won't be
>>>>>>symbols with this program.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whether or not the .EXE has symbols included has nothing to do with
> loading
>>>>DDT.
>>>>>
>>>>>>depending on the code.  One does not need DDT loaded with
>>>>>>the EXE to do any of the debugging.  I probably would not
>>>>>>want DDT in my address space because it's extra code
>>>>>>to ignore and it does strange things with one's adddress space.
>>>>>
>>>>> DDT doesn't do "strange things" with the address space.  The DDT 
>>>>> command
>>>>> loads DDT into the top of the address space and transfers program 
>>>>> control
> to
>>>>> its start address.
>>>>
>>>>Having DDT loaded with the program on TOPS-10 makes the exe writable and
>>>>the addresses of the program's code and data may not be the same 
>>>>absolute
>>>>addresses when DDT is not part of the EXE.
>>>
>>>Having DDT loaded with the program does not make the .EXE writeable.
>>>Having DDT loaded does not change the addresses of code or data.
>>>Neither of these are relevant to the discussion at hand.
>>
>> It is the other way around; at least in Tops20. You must have the
>> image readable (not execute-only) to load DDT on it. With DDT loaded
>> you can then save it as a different .EXE.
>
> Yea, he's confused.
>>
>>>>This is a pure EXE.  You don't know if absolute addressing was used or
>>>>if SETUWP was used if the points were kept in the EXE.
>>>
>>>Please tell us, what would be an impure .EXE?
>>
>> In Tops20, it is one that has been modified since the initial load from
>> disk. By executing, patching or loading of debuggers, like DDT.
>
> And it can't be sharable on TOPS-10.  Since the code is FORTRAN, the OTS
> is sharable.  I think you could get around it on the -20.
>
>>
>>>An .EXE file by definition uses absolute addresses.  That's what LINK 
>>>does.
> It
>>>takes as input the relocatable code from .REL files and resolves the
> addresses.
>>>The resulting .EXE can be slapped directly into memory with a series of
> block
>>>transfers and then executed.
>>>
>>>It is highly unlike a SETUWP would be used in a FORTRAN program.
>>>
>>>Again, none of this is relevant to the discussion at hand.  You 
>>>demonstrate
>>>no comprehension of the issue, and rather than admit your ignorance, you
> throw
>>>out unrelated crap and pretend you know what you're talking about.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Instead of trying to "prove" me wrong, why don't you try debugging
>>>>the fucking program?
>>>
>>>No one has to prove you wrong.  It's been clearly demonstrated.  You are
>>>either too obstinate, too ignorant -- or both -- to recognize it.
>>>
>>>Go back and read the code fragment again.  It's FORTRAN, even you should
>>>be able to figure it out.  To begin with, the program doesn't even store 
>>>the
>>>score.  It's only calculated when needed.
>>
>> And this is why you need address breaks to figure it out rapidly when you
> only
>> have the binary. Once you find the calculation code you can go look for
>> references to the various variables it uses.
>
> You can also set a mask and break when a particular bit is referenced.
>>
>> The pdp10 code compiled from fortran code was pretty easy to understand, 
>> at
> least
>> on lower levels of optimisation.
>
> Reading code and determining when it's invoked (such as setting a bit for
> a score) can be complicated if it involves 3 conditions :-).  IIRC,
> the point was set when a vase was placed on a pillow in a particular
> room.  That's 3 conditions: the vase and pillow had to be acquired
> and then the room where they were to be placed had to be found.

And that can't be done with JUST SET BREAK, whatever you claim. 

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#161514

Rod Speed wrote:
>
>
> "jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message

<snip>

>> Reading code and determining when it's invoked (such as setting a bit for
>> a score) can be complicated if it involves 3 conditions :-).  IIRC,
>> the point was set when a vase was placed on a pillow in a particular
>> room.  That's 3 conditions: the vase and pillow had to be acquired
>> and then the room where they were to be placed had to be found.
>
> And that can't be done with JUST SET BREAK, whatever you claim.
>
Just because you can't do it does not mean that a TOPS-10 guru
can't do it.

/BAH

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#161517

"jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message 
news:PM00052F07BAB82A98@aca41172.ipt.aol.com...
> Rod Speed wrote:
>>
>>
>> "jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Reading code and determining when it's invoked (such as setting a bit 
>>> for
>>> a score) can be complicated if it involves 3 conditions :-).  IIRC,
>>> the point was set when a vase was placed on a pillow in a particular
>>> room.  That's 3 conditions: the vase and pillow had to be acquired
>>> and then the room where they were to be placed had to be found.
>>
>> And that can't be done with JUST SET BREAK, whatever you claim.
>>
> Just because you can't do it

No one can.

> does not mean that a TOPS-10 guru can't do it.

How odd that you haven't been able to explain
how to JUST use SET BREAK to do it.

You've stupidly assumed that that is how they
did it when in fact they examined the code after
they had used SET BREAK to work out where what
the player has done and where the points are
stored, so they can find other code that references
those variables and then check what that code
requires to have been done to get the last point. 

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#161558

"jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message 
news:PM00052F07BAB82A98@aca41172.ipt.aol.com...
> Rod Speed wrote:
>>
>>
>> "jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Reading code and determining when it's invoked (such as setting a bit 
>>> for
>>> a score) can be complicated if it involves 3 conditions :-).  IIRC,
>>> the point was set when a vase was placed on a pillow in a particular
>>> room.  That's 3 conditions: the vase and pillow had to be acquired
>>> and then the room where they were to be placed had to be found.
>>
>> And that can't be done with JUST SET BREAK, whatever you claim.
>>
> Just because you can't do it does not mean that a TOPS-10 guru
> can't do it.
>

Nothing works in Speedo's delusional world!

-- 

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

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#161574

Charles Richmond wrote:
> "jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:PM00052F07BAB82A98@aca41172.ipt.aol.com...
>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> Reading code and determining when it's invoked (such as setting a bit
>>>> for
>>>> a score) can be complicated if it involves 3 conditions :-).  IIRC,
>>>> the point was set when a vase was placed on a pillow in a particular
>>>> room.  That's 3 conditions: the vase and pillow had to be acquired
>>>> and then the room where they were to be placed had to be found.
>>>
>>> And that can't be done with JUST SET BREAK, whatever you claim.
>>>
>> Just because you can't do it does not mean that a TOPS-10 guru
>> can't do it.
>>
>
> Nothing works in Speedo's delusional world!
>
Frankly, I don't know how people debug these days without
the SET WATCH FILE VERSION and SET BREAK command functionality.

/BAH

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#161579

In article <PM00052F3041A748FE@aca412e9.ipt.aol.com>,
jmfbahciv  <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>Charles Richmond wrote:
>> "jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:PM00052F07BAB82A98@aca41172.ipt.aol.com...
>>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>>> Reading code and determining when it's invoked (such as setting a bit
>>>>> for
>>>>> a score) can be complicated if it involves 3 conditions :-).  IIRC,
>>>>> the point was set when a vase was placed on a pillow in a particular
>>>>> room.  That's 3 conditions: the vase and pillow had to be acquired
>>>>> and then the room where they were to be placed had to be found.
>>>>
>>>> And that can't be done with JUST SET BREAK, whatever you claim.
>>>>
>>> Just because you can't do it does not mean that a TOPS-10 guru
>>> can't do it.
>>>
>>
>> Nothing works in Speedo's delusional world!
>>
>Frankly, I don't know how people debug these days without
>the SET WATCH FILE VERSION and SET BREAK command functionality.

tail -f on files help a lot. And the ARM series of computers I deal
with do have some address breaks available, from inside the 
debugger at least.

Besides, there are good graphical debuggers now. But I still
miss ddt. My fingers especially, that command set got so tightly
into my fingers it is a bit scary. The graphical debuggers help
greatly by visualising data structures and what they contain.

But machine code assembly is not the same with x86 or the
thumb2 instructions; often heavily optimised. It is not
very straightforward to read the disassebled machine code
and relate it to high level code.

The tops20 compilers sort of got there on version 7 too, on the
highest optimisation levels, so it is a general thing, not
totally processor specific.

-- mrr

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#161640

Morten Reistad wrote:
> In article <PM00052F3041A748FE@aca412e9.ipt.aol.com>,
> jmfbahciv  <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>Charles Richmond wrote:
>>> "jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
>>> news:PM00052F07BAB82A98@aca41172.ipt.aol.com...
>>>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>>> Reading code and determining when it's invoked (such as setting a bit
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> a score) can be complicated if it involves 3 conditions :-).  IIRC,
>>>>>> the point was set when a vase was placed on a pillow in a particular
>>>>>> room.  That's 3 conditions: the vase and pillow had to be acquired
>>>>>> and then the room where they were to be placed had to be found.
>>>>>
>>>>> And that can't be done with JUST SET BREAK, whatever you claim.
>>>>>
>>>> Just because you can't do it does not mean that a TOPS-10 guru
>>>> can't do it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nothing works in Speedo's delusional world!
>>>
>>Frankly, I don't know how people debug these days without
>>the SET WATCH FILE VERSION and SET BREAK command functionality.
>
> tail -f on files help a lot. And the ARM series of computers I deal
> with do have some address breaks available, from inside the
> debugger at least.
>
> Besides, there are good graphical debuggers now. But I still
> miss ddt. My fingers especially, that command set got so tightly
> into my fingers it is a bit scary. The graphical debuggers help
> greatly by visualising data structures and what they contain.

<grin>  And TECO.
>
> But machine code assembly is not the same with x86 or the
> thumb2 instructions; often heavily optimised. It is not
> very straightforward to read the disassebled machine code
> and relate it to high level code.

Yea, that's why I didn't put DDT on that list; I wanted to
because DDT was a Good Thing.

>
> The tops20 compilers sort of got there on version 7 too, on the
> highest optimisation levels, so it is a general thing, not
> totally processor specific.

One of the things I wanted to do was "fix" FORDDT but I never
got the time.  It was the most useless debugger to anyone
who had used the real DDT.

/BAH

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#161582

jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>Charles Richmond wrote:
>> "jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:PM00052F07BAB82A98@aca41172.ipt.aol.com...
>>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>>> Reading code and determining when it's invoked (such as setting a bit
>>>>> for
>>>>> a score) can be complicated if it involves 3 conditions :-).  IIRC,
>>>>> the point was set when a vase was placed on a pillow in a particular
>>>>> room.  That's 3 conditions: the vase and pillow had to be acquired
>>>>> and then the room where they were to be placed had to be found.
>>>>
>>>> And that can't be done with JUST SET BREAK, whatever you claim.
>>>>
>>> Just because you can't do it does not mean that a TOPS-10 guru
>>> can't do it.
>>>
>>
>> Nothing works in Speedo's delusional world!
>>
>Frankly, I don't know how people debug these days without
>the SET WATCH FILE VERSION and SET BREAK command functionality.

People don't debug these days without "SET WATCH FILE" and "SET BREAK"
functionality, because every processor out there supports equivalent
capabilities.

Note that even Intel CPU's have had the equivalent of SET BREAK
for thirty+ years (they're called hardware breakpoints, and will
trigger when a particular instruction is executed, or when a particular
memory location is accessed or updated, depending on how the breakpoint
is configured).

Every debugger since the 70's on pretty much every CPU has had these
capabilities and many others.   On Intel, for example, you can read from
the LBR (Last Branch Register) when you stop on a breakpoint to help
understand the flow leading up to the condition that caused the breakpoint
to trigger.    PDP-10 didn't have an LBR.

Modern CPU's have extensive hardware debug capabilities (from JTAG at the lowest
level, to ETM on ARM, to OCLA[*] on Cavium processors).

[*] On-Chip Logic Analyzer

As for SET WATCH FILE, all that data is also available in modern operating
systems (in Linux, you can find it in the /proc/<pid> heirarchy or by
using the ltrace(1) or strace(1) or truss(1) commands).

E.g.

The 'strace' (or truss in SVR4) command will trace all interactions (UUO -> system call)
between the operating system (monitor to you) and the application
including synchronous and asynchronous events.  You would use this to
implement "SET WATCH FILES" on any unix/linux system.

'ltrace' goes one better, and traces all interactions between the
application and any shared libraries it is using.

And the output is much friendlier than the output from .SET WATCH

e.g.

$ strace -e trace=open cat /etc/motd
open("/etc/ld.so.cache", O_RDONLY)      = 3
open("/lib64/libc.so.6", O_RDONLY)      = 3
open("/etc/motd", O_RDONLY)             = 3

This shows all the files opened by the command 'cat /etc/motd'.

Similarly, one could use this to trace adventure.

If you want to see what was read from where:

$ strace -e trace=open,read cat /etc/motd 
open("/etc/ld.so.cache", O_RDONLY)      = 3
open("/lib64/libc.so.6", O_RDONLY)      = 3
read(3, "\177ELF\2\1\1\3\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\3\0>\0\1\0\0\0p\356A'2\0\0\0"..., 832) = 832
open("/etc/motd", O_RDONLY)             = 3
read(3, "", 32768)                      = 0


Then you also have source-level debug tools, such as gdb, which
even allow you to debug the operating system itself:

(gdb) thread 3
[Switching to thread 3 (Thread 3)]
#0  __raw_spin_lock_irqsave (lock=<optimized out>) at include/linux/spinlock_api_smp.h:109
109             preempt_disable();
(gdb) bt
#0  __raw_spin_lock_irqsave (lock=<optimized out>) at include/linux/spinlock_api_smp.h:109
#1  _raw_spin_lock_irqsave (lock=0xfffffe00007cb100 <simple_ida_lock>) at kernel/locking/spinlock.c:159
#2  0xfffffe000031c754 in ida_simple_get (ida=0xfffffe0340024f10, start=0x0, end=<optimized out>, gfp_mask=0x1)
    at lib/idr.c:1100
#3  0xfffffe00001ec558 in __kernfs_new_node (root=0xfffffe0340024f00, name=0x0, mode=0x8124, flags=0x1)
    at fs/kernfs/dir.c:519
#4  0xfffffe00001ed5bc in kernfs_new_node (parent=0xfffffe0342189858, name=<optimized out>, mode=<optimized out>, 
    flags=<optimized out>) at fs/kernfs/dir.c:547
#5  0xfffffe00001eedc4 in __kernfs_create_file (parent=<optimized out>, name=<optimized out>, mode=<optimized out>, 
    size=0x10000, ops=<optimized out>, priv=<optimized out>, ns=<optimized out>, name_is_static=<optimized out>, key=0x0)
    at fs/kernfs/file.c:920
#6  0xfffffe00001ef65c in sysfs_add_file_mode_ns (parent=0xfffffe0342189858, 
    attr=0xfffffe0000761028 <dev_attr_dma_mask_bits>, is_bin=<optimized out>, mode=<optimized out>, ns=<optimized out>)
    at fs/sysfs/file.c:256
#7  0xfffffe00001f0380 in create_files (update=<optimized out>, grp=<optimized out>, kobj=<optimized out>, 
    parent=<optimized out>) at fs/sysfs/group.c:58
#8  internal_create_group (kobj=0xfffffe00007cb100 <simple_ida_lock>, update=0x0, grp=0xfffffe0000551fb8 <pci_dev_group>)
    at fs/sysfs/group.c:116
#9  0xfffffe00001f0544 in sysfs_create_group (kobj=<optimized out>, grp=<optimized out>) at fs/sysfs/group.c:138
#10 0xfffffe00001f0684 in sysfs_create_groups (kobj=0xfffffe0064c388a8, groups=0x0) at fs/sysfs/group.c:165
#11 0xfffffe00003aa8d8 in device_add_groups (dev=<optimized out>, groups=<optimized out>) at drivers/base/core.c:459
#12 0xfffffe00003acfac in bus_add_device (dev=0xfffffe0064c38898) at drivers/base/bus.c:514
#13 0xfffffe00003ab294 in device_add (dev=0xfffffe0064c38898) at drivers/base/core.c:1042
#14 0xfffffe0000346d54 in pci_device_add (dev=0xfffffe0064c38800, bus=0xfffffe034120cc00) at drivers/pci/probe.c:1562
#15 0xfffffe0000346e2c in pci_scan_single_device (devfn=<optimized out>, bus=<optimized out>) at drivers/pci/probe.c:1580
#16 pci_scan_single_device (bus=0xfffffe034120cc00, devfn=0x0) at drivers/pci/probe.c:1566
#17 0xfffffe0000346ea4 in pci_scan_slot (devfn=<optimized out>, bus=<optimized out>) at drivers/pci/probe.c:1647
#18 pci_scan_slot (bus=0xfffffe034120cc00, devfn=0x0) at drivers/pci/probe.c:1639
#19 0xfffffe0000347db4 in pci_scan_child_bus (bus=0xfffffe00007cb100 <simple_ida_lock>) at drivers/pci/probe.c:1849
#20 0xfffffe0000347a2c in pci_scan_bridge (bus=0xfffffe034120c000, dev=0xfffffe006407c000, max=0x2, pass=<optimized out>)
    at drivers/pci/probe.c:838
#21 0xfffffe0000347e1c in pci_scan_child_bus (bus=0xfffffe00007cb100 <simple_ida_lock>) at drivers/pci/probe.c:1867
#22 0xfffffe0000360ee8 in thunder_pcie_probe (pdev=0xfffffe0341210c00) at drivers/pci/host/pcie-thunder.c:625
#23 0xfffffe00003af3e4 in platform_drv_probe (_dev=0xfffffe0341210c10) at drivers/base/platform.c:512
#24 0xfffffe00003adb88 in really_probe (drv=<optimized out>, dev=<optimized out>) at drivers/base/dd.c:306
#25 driver_probe_device (drv=0xfffffe00007616e0 <thunder_pcie_driver+40>, dev=0xfffffe0341210c10) at drivers/base/dd.c:399
#26 0xfffffe00003adddc in __driver_attach (data=<optimized out>, dev=<optimized out>) at drivers/base/dd.c:477
#27 __driver_attach (dev=0xfffffe0341210c10, data=0xfffffe00007616e0 <thunder_pcie_driver+40>) at drivers/base/dd.c:456
#28 0xfffffe00003ac118 in bus_for_each_dev (bus=<optimized out>, start=<optimized out>, data=0x1, fn=0x1)
    at drivers/base/bus.c:311
#29 0xfffffe00003ad6b0 in driver_attach (drv=<optimized out>) at drivers/base/dd.c:496
#30 0xfffffe00003ad340 in bus_add_driver (drv=0xfffffe00007616e0 <thunder_pcie_driver+40>) at drivers/base/bus.c:692
#31 0xfffffe00003ae500 in driver_register (drv=0xfffffe00007616e0 <thunder_pcie_driver+40>) at drivers/base/driver.c:167
#32 0xfffffe00003af25c in __platform_driver_register (drv=<optimized out>, owner=<optimized out>)
    at drivers/base/platform.c:568
#33 0xfffffe00006d8e78 in thunder_pcie_driver_init () at drivers/pci/host/pcie-thunder.c:652
#34 0xfffffe000009050c in do_one_initcall (fn=0xfffffe00006d8e60 <thunder_pcie_driver_init>) at init/main.c:791
#35 0xfffffe00006c0abc in do_initcall_level (level=<optimized out>) at init/main.c:856
#36 do_initcalls () at init/main.c:864
#37 do_basic_setup () at init/main.c:883
#38 kernel_init_freeable () at init/main.c:1004
#39 0xfffffe00004ed690 in kernel_init (unused=<optimized out>) at init/main.c:934
#40 0xfffffe00000931e0 in ret_from_fork () at arch/arm64/kernel/entry.S:640

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#161586

On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 16:17:31 GMT
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> Then you also have source-level debug tools, such as gdb, which
> even allow you to debug the operating system itself:
> 
> (gdb) thread 3
> [Switching to thread 3 (Thread 3)]
> #0  __raw_spin_lock_irqsave (lock=<optimized out>) at
> #include/linux/spinlock_api_smp.h:109

	Although all to often the bit you really want to see is <optimized
out> and you have to go grobbling up the stack frames to try and find a
reference to it that hasn't been <optimized out>.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#161589

On 2016-03-29, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:

> Frankly, I don't know how people debug these days without
> the SET WATCH FILE VERSION and SET BREAK command functionality.

The same way we always did: sprinkle printf()s through our code.
(Actually, I insert writes to a log file instead - then I can run
the log through various tools for a more comprehensive analysis.)

I'd love to have a nice freestanding symbolic debugger like I had
with Lattice C under MS-DOS.  But nowadays they want you to register
your program as a "project" under some huge IDE full of so many bells
and whistles that it takes more time to set it up than it does to
track down a bug the old-fashioned way.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

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#161590

On 2016-03-29, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2016-03-29, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Frankly, I don't know how people debug these days without
>> the SET WATCH FILE VERSION and SET BREAK command functionality.
>
> The same way we always did: sprinkle printf()s through our code.
> (Actually, I insert writes to a log file instead - then I can run
> the log through various tools for a more comprehensive analysis.)
>
> I'd love to have a nice freestanding symbolic debugger like I had
> with Lattice C under MS-DOS.  But nowadays they want you to register
> your program as a "project" under some huge IDE full of so many bells
> and whistles that it takes more time to set it up than it does to
> track down a bug the old-fashioned way.

*applause*


-- 
Today is Pungenday, the 15th day of Discord in the YOLD 3182
                  I don't have an attitude problem.
    If you have a problem with my attitude, that's your problem.

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