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Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break

From "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com>
Newsgroups alt.folklore.computers
Subject Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break
Date 2016-03-27 04:11 +1100
Message-ID <dlnu5dFpfn7U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References (9 earlier) <56f0f20d.1619358@nntp2.rawbw.com> <PM00052EA36003CE62@aca410ea.ipt.aol.com> <56f63b00.8472873@nntp2.rawbw.com> <acvhsc-3v.ln1@sambook.reistad.name> <PM00052EF36C99680E@aca40d98.ipt.aol.com>

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"jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message 
news:PM00052EF36C99680E@aca40d98.ipt.aol.com...
> Morten Reistad wrote:
>> In article <56f63b00.8472873@nntp2.rawbw.com>, Questor <usenet@only.tnx>
> wrote:
>>>On 22 Mar 2016 13:40:37 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>Questor wrote:
>>>>> On 19 Mar 2016 13:23:27 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>>If you did think you needed DDT, then you would have to go
>>>>>>to a TOPS-20 system,  and type:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>GET ADVENT
>>>>>>DDT
>>>>>>^C
>>>>>>SAVE ADVENT
>>>>>
>>>>> You can do the same thing on TOPS-10 and you don't need to save the 
>>>>> image
>>>>with
>>>>> DDT.
>>>>>
>>>>>>Then you can look using DDT commands but there won't be
>>>>>>symbols with this program.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whether or not the .EXE has symbols included has nothing to do with
> loading
>>>>DDT.
>>>>>
>>>>>>depending on the code.  One does not need DDT loaded with
>>>>>>the EXE to do any of the debugging.  I probably would not
>>>>>>want DDT in my address space because it's extra code
>>>>>>to ignore and it does strange things with one's adddress space.
>>>>>
>>>>> DDT doesn't do "strange things" with the address space.  The DDT 
>>>>> command
>>>>> loads DDT into the top of the address space and transfers program 
>>>>> control
> to
>>>>> its start address.
>>>>
>>>>Having DDT loaded with the program on TOPS-10 makes the exe writable and
>>>>the addresses of the program's code and data may not be the same 
>>>>absolute
>>>>addresses when DDT is not part of the EXE.
>>>
>>>Having DDT loaded with the program does not make the .EXE writeable.
>>>Having DDT loaded does not change the addresses of code or data.
>>>Neither of these are relevant to the discussion at hand.
>>
>> It is the other way around; at least in Tops20. You must have the
>> image readable (not execute-only) to load DDT on it. With DDT loaded
>> you can then save it as a different .EXE.
>
> Yea, he's confused.
>>
>>>>This is a pure EXE.  You don't know if absolute addressing was used or
>>>>if SETUWP was used if the points were kept in the EXE.
>>>
>>>Please tell us, what would be an impure .EXE?
>>
>> In Tops20, it is one that has been modified since the initial load from
>> disk. By executing, patching or loading of debuggers, like DDT.
>
> And it can't be sharable on TOPS-10.  Since the code is FORTRAN, the OTS
> is sharable.  I think you could get around it on the -20.
>
>>
>>>An .EXE file by definition uses absolute addresses.  That's what LINK 
>>>does.
> It
>>>takes as input the relocatable code from .REL files and resolves the
> addresses.
>>>The resulting .EXE can be slapped directly into memory with a series of
> block
>>>transfers and then executed.
>>>
>>>It is highly unlike a SETUWP would be used in a FORTRAN program.
>>>
>>>Again, none of this is relevant to the discussion at hand.  You 
>>>demonstrate
>>>no comprehension of the issue, and rather than admit your ignorance, you
> throw
>>>out unrelated crap and pretend you know what you're talking about.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Instead of trying to "prove" me wrong, why don't you try debugging
>>>>the fucking program?
>>>
>>>No one has to prove you wrong.  It's been clearly demonstrated.  You are
>>>either too obstinate, too ignorant -- or both -- to recognize it.
>>>
>>>Go back and read the code fragment again.  It's FORTRAN, even you should
>>>be able to figure it out.  To begin with, the program doesn't even store 
>>>the
>>>score.  It's only calculated when needed.
>>
>> And this is why you need address breaks to figure it out rapidly when you
> only
>> have the binary. Once you find the calculation code you can go look for
>> references to the various variables it uses.
>
> You can also set a mask and break when a particular bit is referenced.
>>
>> The pdp10 code compiled from fortran code was pretty easy to understand, 
>> at
> least
>> on lower levels of optimisation.
>
> Reading code and determining when it's invoked (such as setting a bit for
> a score) can be complicated if it involves 3 conditions :-).  IIRC,
> the point was set when a vase was placed on a pillow in a particular
> room.  That's 3 conditions: the vase and pillow had to be acquired
> and then the room where they were to be placed had to be found.

And that can't be done with JUST SET BREAK, whatever you claim.

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Thread

Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-19 13:23 +0000
  Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-03-20 06:46 +1100
    Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-20 13:56 +0000
      Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-03-21 04:51 +1100
        Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-21 12:24 +0000
          Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-03-21 13:53 +0100
            Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-03-22 04:23 +1100
              Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-22 13:40 +0000
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-03-23 05:01 +1100
            Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Rob Doyle <radioengr@gmail.com> - 2016-03-22 01:50 -0700
              Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-03-22 13:22 +0100
              Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-22 13:40 +0000
            Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-22 13:40 +0000
              Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-03-26 07:32 +0000
          Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-03-22 04:24 +1100
          Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-03-22 10:20 -0500
            Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-23 13:23 +0000
  Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-21 13:58 +0000
  Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-21 14:00 +0000
    Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-22 13:40 +0000
      Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-03-22 10:24 -0500
  Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-03-22 07:19 +0000
  Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-03-22 07:19 +0000
    Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-03-22 13:20 +0100
    Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-22 13:40 +0000
      Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-03-23 04:55 +1100
      Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-03-26 07:32 +0000
        Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-03-26 09:55 +0100
          Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-26 13:24 +0000
            Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-03-27 04:11 +1100
              Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-27 13:26 +0000
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 04:25 +1100
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-03-28 15:58 -0500
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-29 13:55 +0000
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-03-29 17:17 +0200
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-30 13:58 +0000
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-29 16:17 +0000
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-03-29 17:57 +0100
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-03-29 17:14 +0000
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-03-29 17:17 +0000
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-29 17:48 +0000
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Ibmekon <Ibmekon> - 2016-03-29 21:35 +0100
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-03-29 23:20 +0000
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-03-30 05:33 +0100
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-30 17:23 +1100
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Ibmekon <Ibmekon> - 2016-03-29 19:28 +0100
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-03-31 11:10 -0500
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Ibmekon <Ibmekon> - 2016-03-31 19:20 +0100
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-30 13:58 +0000
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-03-30 16:32 +0000
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-30 16:55 +0000
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-31 04:09 +1100
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-03-31 06:22 +0000
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-03-31 11:13 -0500
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-31 21:00 -0500
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-31 03:49 +1100
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-03-30 05:29 +1100
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-30 13:58 +0000
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-03-31 03:41 +1100
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-31 12:41 +0000
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-04-01 05:03 +1100
                Re: Debugging Adventure using Address Break usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2016-04-15 08:34 +0000

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