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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #158899 > unrolled thread

Qbasic

Started byphilo <philo@privacy.net>
First post2016-02-05 11:25 -0600
Last post2016-02-13 11:33 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 190 — 34 participants

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Contents

  Qbasic philo <philo@privacy.net> - 2016-02-05 11:25 -0600
    Re: Qbasic Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-02-05 14:56 -0800
      Re: Qbasic philo <philo@privacy.net> - 2016-02-05 18:13 -0600
        Re: Qbasic Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-02-05 22:40 -0500
          Re: Qbasic philo <philo@privacy.net> - 2016-02-05 22:32 -0600
            Re: Qbasic "Gene Buckle" <gene.buckle@bbs.retroarchive.org.remove-3hg-this> - 2016-02-11 10:22 -0800
              Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-11 17:16 -0800
                Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-11 18:49 -0800
                  Re: Qbasic philo <philo@privacy.net> - 2016-02-12 05:25 -0600
                    Re: Qbasic "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-02-12 11:50 +0000
                      Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-02-12 14:02 +0000
                        Re: Qbasic "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-02-12 23:24 +0000
                    Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-12 09:50 -0800
                  Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-12 06:53 -0500
                    Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-02-12 13:40 +0000
                      Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-12 09:53 -0800
                        Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-02-13 14:37 +0000
                    Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-02-12 14:04 +0000
                      Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-12 09:55 -0800
                        Re: Qbasic Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-02-12 20:49 +0000
                          Re: Qbasic Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-02-12 23:21 +0000
                            Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-12 15:55 -0800
                              Re: Qbasic Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-02-13 00:26 +0000
                              Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-02-16 15:55 +0000
                        Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-02-12 21:09 +0000
                          Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-12 17:11 -0600
                            Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-12 23:27 -0800
                              Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-13 06:26 -0500
                                Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-02-16 15:54 +0000
                                  Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-17 11:34 -0800
                                    Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-02-17 19:56 +0000
                                      Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-02-17 12:48 -0800
                                      Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-17 18:52 -0600
                                        Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-17 19:23 -0800
                                          Re: Qbasic "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-02-18 12:00 -0600
                                            Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-18 15:02 -0800
                                              Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-18 20:36 -0500
                                                Re: Qbasic Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-02-19 04:14 +0000
                                                  Re: Qbasic "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-02-19 20:05 -0600
                                                    Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-19 21:34 -0500
                                                      Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-02-20 08:03 -0600
                                                        Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-20 11:09 -0500
                                                        Re: Qbasic JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-02-20 10:39 -0600
                                                          Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-02-20 12:05 -0600
                                                            Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-02-20 13:47 -0600
                                                              Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-02-20 14:21 -0600
                                                                Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-02-20 18:06 -0600
                                                    Re: Qbasic Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-02-20 18:57 +0000
                                                      Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-02-20 14:02 -0600
                                                      Re: Qbasic Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2016-02-20 16:51 -0400
                                          Re: Qbasic Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-02-18 21:34 +0000
                                        Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-02-18 06:25 +0000
                                        Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-02-18 14:17 +0000
                                          Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-18 11:33 -0600
                                            Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-02-18 17:41 +0000
                                            Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-18 14:54 -0800
                                    Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-17 18:41 -0700
                                    Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-18 20:14 -0500
                                      Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-18 20:54 -0600
                                      Re: Qbasic "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-02-19 11:44 +0000
                              Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-13 12:24 -0600
                          Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-12 23:26 -0800
                            Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-13 07:43 -0700
                              Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-13 10:29 -0500
                                Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-13 08:20 -0800
                                  Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-13 09:21 -0800
                                  Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-13 12:44 -0500
                                    Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-13 11:31 -0800
                                      Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-13 15:52 -0500
                                        Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-13 13:02 -0800
                                          Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-13 16:58 -0500
                                            Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-13 20:24 -0800
                                              Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-13 21:39 -0800
                                                Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-14 08:48 -0700
                                          Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-13 14:17 -0800
                                            Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-13 20:00 -0500
                                              Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-13 17:52 -0800
                                                Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-02-13 19:28 -0800
                                                  Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-13 21:32 -0800
                                                Re: Qbasic David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2016-02-14 14:59 +0000
                                                  Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-14 08:48 -0700
                                                    Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-02-14 10:15 -0800
                                                  Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-02-14 09:48 -0800
                                                    Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-02-14 12:01 -0800
                                                Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-14 08:48 -0700
                                                  Re: Qbasic Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-02-14 19:36 -0500
                                            Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-13 20:35 -0800
                                          Re: Qbasic Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-02-14 10:15 -0500
                                            Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-14 08:20 -0800
                                              Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-14 14:31 -0600
                                              Re: Qbasic Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-02-14 19:33 -0500
                                                Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-16 18:52 -0700
                                      Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-13 14:04 -0800
                                        Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name,invalid> - 2016-02-13 23:18 +0100
                                        Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-02-13 17:25 -0600
                                        Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-13 19:42 -0500
                                          Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-13 20:30 -0800
                                            Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-13 21:49 -0800
                                              Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-14 06:36 -0800
                                                Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-14 08:48 -0700
                                                  Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-14 08:23 -0800
                                                    Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-14 08:27 -0800
                                                      Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-16 18:52 -0700
                                            Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-14 08:48 -0700
                                              Re: Qbasic Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-02-15 21:27 +0000
                                                Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-15 14:30 -0800
                                                Re: Qbasic Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-02-15 23:38 -0500
                                                  Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-17 11:23 -0800
                                                Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-15 20:49 -0800
                                                  Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-02-16 07:07 +0000
                                                    Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-02-16 10:33 +0100
                                                      Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-02-16 13:43 +0000
                                                        Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-02-16 15:21 +0100
                                                        Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-17 11:30 -0800
                                                          Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-02-17 19:49 +0000
                                                          Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-02-18 13:58 +0000
                                                            Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-02-18 16:53 +0100
                                                              Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-02-19 14:24 +0000
                                                                Re: Qbasic "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-02-20 05:09 +1100
                                                                  Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-02-20 15:18 +0000
                                                                    Re: Qbasic "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-02-21 03:30 +1100
                                                                      Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-02-20 19:06 +0100
                                                                        Re: Qbasic "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-02-21 05:55 +1100
                                                                          Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-02-20 21:42 +0100
                                                                            Re: Qbasic "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-02-21 12:05 +1100
                                                                        Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-20 16:24 -0600
                                                                        Re: Qbasic Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-02-21 00:26 +0000
                                                                Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-19 11:15 -0700
                                                                  Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-02-20 15:18 +0000
                                                                    Re: Qbasic "hgww" <hgww@gmail.com> - 2016-02-21 03:43 +1100
                                                                Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-02-19 18:36 +0000
                                                                  Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-02-20 15:18 +0000
                                                                    Re: Qbasic "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-02-21 03:31 +1100
                                                                      Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-02-20 19:13 +0100
                                                                        Re: Qbasic "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-02-21 06:00 +1100
                                                    Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-16 10:10 -0800
                                                      Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-02-16 18:32 +0000
                                                        Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-02-16 21:08 +0000
                                                Re: Qbasic Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2016-02-16 08:20 +0000
                                                  Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-16 18:52 -0700
                                                    Re: Qbasic Lawrence Statton <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-02-16 20:30 -0600
                                                      Re: Qbasic Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-02-17 04:17 +0000
                                                  Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-17 11:25 -0800
                                  Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-02-13 17:25 +0100
                                    Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-13 11:34 -0800
                                    Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-13 16:47 -0500
                                  Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-02-14 04:09 +0000
                                    Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-14 08:48 -0700
                                      Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-14 12:12 -0500
                                        Re: Qbasic Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-02-14 19:39 -0500
                                          Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-14 19:55 -0500
                                            Re: Qbasic Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-02-14 20:08 -0500
                                        Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-14 20:41 -0800
                                          Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-15 12:06 -0500
                                            Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-15 09:21 -0800
                                              Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-15 09:29 -0800
                                                Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-02-15 21:22 +0000
                                              Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-15 13:39 -0500
                                            Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-02-15 21:20 +0000
                                Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-13 09:18 -0800
                                  Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-13 13:07 -0500
                                    Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-13 10:48 -0800
                                      Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-13 15:49 -0500
                                        Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-13 14:09 -0800
                                          Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-13 19:56 -0500
                                            Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-13 17:43 -0800
                                        Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-02-14 04:16 +0000
                                      Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-02-13 23:35 +0100
                                        Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-13 20:08 -0500
                                          Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-13 17:55 -0800
                                      Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-02-14 04:14 +0000
                                        Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-14 08:48 -0700
                              Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-02-13 16:13 +0100
                                Re: Qbasic "Blanco" <rko4410@gmail.com> - 2016-02-14 04:44 +1100
                                  Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-02-13 23:30 +0100
                                    Re: Qbasic "Blanco" <rko4410@gmail.com> - 2016-02-14 13:27 +1100
                                Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-14 13:43 -0600
                                  Re: Qbasic "hgww" <hgww@gmail.com> - 2016-02-15 07:31 +1100
                    Re: Qbasic pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) - 2016-02-12 17:38 +0000
                      Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-12 19:33 -0500
                    Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-12 09:51 -0800
                      Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-12 19:24 -0500
                        Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-02-13 14:37 +0000
                          Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-13 10:24 -0500
                      Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-12 23:20 -0800
                        Re: Qbasic "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-02-13 11:09 +0000
                          Re: Qbasic Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-02-14 00:53 +0000
                          Re: Qbasic Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2016-02-15 23:30 -0500
                          Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-02-16 15:56 +0000
                        Re: Qbasic Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-02-13 11:33 +0000

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#159249

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-02-13 13:07 -0500
Message-ID<MPG.31293b02d2f63704989f6e@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#159239
In article <f06ca151-d32c-49e3-a4ff-e3441550b3e8@googlegroups.com>, 
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com says...
> 
> On Saturday, February 13, 2016 at 10:28:11 AM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> 
> > We're currently porting some code written in Fortran in the early '70s 
> > to C, mostly because IBM hasn't issued a version upgrade of Fortran on 
> > the mainframe since some time in the '80s. It's not EOL--they'll fix 
> > bugs if they find them and when they add new features to the hardware 
> > they _may_ update the compiler to provide support for them.
> 
> There is still some old Fortran that still runs on the Z mainframe.  But
> I think most Fortran work is now done by other means, such as CAD/CAM or spreadsheets; or mini-computers where Fortran is still supported 
> and expanded.
> 
> But if a conversion is necessary, today's mainframe COBOL supports
> some sci/eng functions.  Might be easier to go to COBOL than C.

For certain values of "Today's".  We're looking at a Cobol upgrade.  The 
big question is how much it's going to break and how much it will cost 
to fix whatever it breaks (cost not just in programmer time but in 
pissed-off agents and customers and in lost business) and so far it's 
not looking good for the upgrade.

But we are trying to avoid writing more code in languages for which 
programmers are difficult to find.

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#159252

Fromhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
Date2016-02-13 10:48 -0800
Message-ID<36ca60ce-d5a7-4595-acbc-865537350c60@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#159249
On Saturday, February 13, 2016 at 1:06:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:

> But we are trying to avoid writing more code in languages for which 
> programmers are difficult to find.

I don't know about Fortran, but it should be easy to find COBOL programmers.
A ton of people in their 40s, 50s, and 60s were trained in COBOL.

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#159262

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-02-13 15:49 -0500
Message-ID<MPG.312960e2c33fed40989f72@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#159252
In article <36ca60ce-d5a7-4595-acbc-865537350c60@googlegroups.com>, 
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com says...
> 
> On Saturday, February 13, 2016 at 1:06:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> 
> > But we are trying to avoid writing more code in languages for which 
> > programmers are difficult to find.
> 
> I don't know about Fortran, but it should be easy to find COBOL programmers.
> A ton of people in their 40s, 50s, and 60s were trained in COBOL.

But how many of those have math degrees?  We don't just need people who 
can write code, we need people who can both write code and speak 
actuary.

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#159271

Fromhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
Date2016-02-13 14:09 -0800
Message-ID<d5e425e0-1fbd-4c60-b4b2-176a69525b01@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#159262
On Saturday, February 13, 2016 at 3:48:13 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:


> > > But we are trying to avoid writing more code in languages for which 
> > > programmers are difficult to find.
> > 
> > I don't know about Fortran, but it should be easy to find COBOL programmers.
> > A ton of people in their 40s, 50s, and 60s were trained in COBOL.
> 
> But how many of those have math degrees?  We don't just need people who 
> can write code, we need people who can both write code and speak 
> actuary.

Ah, you need specialists, not just a programmer.

(Actually, I know of an ideal candidate for you.  WW II vet, went to
college on the GI Bill, then worked as an actuary, with Fortran 
programming. I'll ask him the next time I see him.  <g>)

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#159292

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-02-13 19:56 -0500
Message-ID<MPG.31299a9bec8abdab989f77@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#159271
In article <d5e425e0-1fbd-4c60-b4b2-176a69525b01@googlegroups.com>, 
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com says...
> 
> On Saturday, February 13, 2016 at 3:48:13 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> 
> 
> > > > But we are trying to avoid writing more code in languages for which 
> > > > programmers are difficult to find.
> > > 
> > > I don't know about Fortran, but it should be easy to find COBOL programmers.
> > > A ton of people in their 40s, 50s, and 60s were trained in COBOL.
> > 
> > But how many of those have math degrees?  We don't just need people who 
> > can write code, we need people who can both write code and speak 
> > actuary.
> 
> Ah, you need specialists, not just a programmer.
> 
> (Actually, I know of an ideal candidate for you.  WW II vet, went to
> college on the GI Bill, then worked as an actuary, with Fortran 
> programming. I'll ask him the next time I see him.  <g>)

He does sound ideal.  We just filled the last opening in our area but 
I'll see if there's anything else.

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#159297

Fromhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
Date2016-02-13 17:43 -0800
Message-ID<7e8bea77-1b61-4da6-8f13-7a19a23a7bb4@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#159292
On Saturday, February 13, 2016 at 7:54:51 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:

> > (Actually, I know of an ideal candidate for you.  WW II vet, went to
> > college on the GI Bill, then worked as an actuary, with Fortran 
> > programming. I'll ask him the next time I see him.  <g>)
> 
> He does sound ideal.  We just filled the last opening in our area but 
> I'll see if there's anything else.

Well, he does like his current job.  <g>

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#159318

FromAndrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com>
Date2016-02-14 04:16 +0000
Message-ID<x_udnUbwRL3mYiLLnZ2dnUU78KMAAAAA@giganews.com>
In reply to#159262
On 13/02/2016 20:49, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <36ca60ce-d5a7-4595-acbc-865537350c60@googlegroups.com>,
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com says...
>>
>> On Saturday, February 13, 2016 at 1:06:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> But we are trying to avoid writing more code in languages for which
>>> programmers are difficult to find.
>>
>> I don't know about Fortran, but it should be easy to find COBOL programmers.
>> A ton of people in their 40s, 50s, and 60s were trained in COBOL.
>
> But how many of those have math degrees?  We don't just need people who
> can write code, we need people who can both write code and speak
> actuary.
>

Where are the youngsters now that you employed 25 years ago?

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#159279

FromMorten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid>
Date2016-02-13 23:35 +0100
Message-ID<3mn4pc-015.ln1@sambook.reistad.name>
In reply to#159252
In article <36ca60ce-d5a7-4595-acbc-865537350c60@googlegroups.com>,
 <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>On Saturday, February 13, 2016 at 1:06:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> But we are trying to avoid writing more code in languages for which 
>> programmers are difficult to find.
>
>I don't know about Fortran, but it should be easy to find COBOL programmers.
>A ton of people in their 40s, 50s, and 60s were trained in COBOL.

A programmer worth the title should be able to pick up something as
reasonably straightforward as cobol, fortran, c or pascal in a few months.
At least to a working relationship with old code.

I can understand struggling with lisp or java. 

-- mrr

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#159296

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-02-13 20:08 -0500
Message-ID<MPG.31299d8b8fd6170f989f79@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#159279
In article <3mn4pc-015.ln1@sambook.reistad.name>, 
first@last.name.invalid says...
> 
> In article <36ca60ce-d5a7-4595-acbc-865537350c60@googlegroups.com>,
>  <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> >On Saturday, February 13, 2016 at 1:06:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> >
> >> But we are trying to avoid writing more code in languages for which 
> >> programmers are difficult to find.
> >
> >I don't know about Fortran, but it should be easy to find COBOL programmers.
> >A ton of people in their 40s, 50s, and 60s were trained in COBOL.
> 
> A programmer worth the title should be able to pick up something as
> reasonably straightforward as cobol, fortran, c or pascal in a few months.
> At least to a working relationship with old code.

It's not that they can't, it's that they for the most part won't.  It 
seems to be a kid thing--fear of being ostracized by their friends for 
using such a clunky obsolete language or some such.
 
> I can understand struggling with lisp or java. 

Well, that's the other shoe--when we aren't porting Fortran to C we're 
setting up actuarial models in APL that are used for QC purposes (we run 
the production code against the APL models to confirm that it's working 
properly).

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#159299

Fromhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
Date2016-02-13 17:55 -0800
Message-ID<d16d4f01-3977-425a-b36a-96cd7b2b1fac@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#159296
On Saturday, February 13, 2016 at 8:07:04 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:

 
> It's not that they can't, it's that they for the most part won't.  It 
> seems to be a kid thing--fear of being ostracized by their friends for 
> using such a clunky obsolete language or some such.

Perhaps prospective candidates are worried about their future down
the road--that having experience on an obsolete language won't look
good to a subsequent employer.  FWIW, _historically_, that was a prudent
attitude to have.


> Well, that's the other shoe--when we aren't porting Fortran to C we're 
> setting up actuarial models in APL that are used for QC purposes (we run 
> the production code against the APL models to confirm that it's working 
> properly).

APL--well that disqualifies me!  <g>

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#159317

FromAndrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com>
Date2016-02-14 04:14 +0000
Message-ID<x_udnUfwRL1kYyLLnZ2dnUU78KOdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#159252
On 13/02/2016 18:48, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Saturday, February 13, 2016 at 1:06:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> But we are trying to avoid writing more code in languages for which
>> programmers are difficult to find.
>
> I don't know about Fortran, but it should be easy to find COBOL programmers.
> A ton of people in their 40s, 50s, and 60s were trained in COBOL.
>

People may have taken COBOL and Fortran off their CV but still be able 
to do it.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#159354

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2016-02-14 08:48 -0700
Message-ID<2045205609.477156538.707018.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#159317
Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On 13/02/2016 18:48, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, February 13, 2016 at 1:06:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>> 
>>> But we are trying to avoid writing more code in languages for which
>>> programmers are difficult to find.
>> 
>> I don't know about Fortran, but it should be easy to find COBOL programmers.
>> A ton of people in their 40s, 50s, and 60s were trained in COBOL.
>> 
> 
> People may have taken COBOL and Fortran off their CV but still be able 
> to do it.
> 

At some point I stopped listing them.

-- 
Pete

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#159235

FromMorten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid>
Date2016-02-13 16:13 +0100
Message-ID<fqt3pc-l33.ln1@sambook.reistad.name>
In reply to#159230
In article <630582847.477066945.696306.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>,
Peter Flass  <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
><hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>> On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 4:09:48 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> 
>>  
>>> It wasn't a mistake, it was a smart decision.  You want to run 30 year
>>> old software, buy a 30-year old CPU.
>> 
>> Just as an aside, in the mainframe world, we routinely ran 30 or even
>> 40 year old software.  The 30 y/o stuff runs native mode.  If the 40 y/o
>> stuff was written for S/360, it will run native mode. If it was written
>> for a prior generation of hardware, it would run under emulation.
>> 
>> 
>
>Most companies try to develop products that give the customer what he
>wants. Microsoft develops products that give the customer what microsoft
>wants.

Microsoft is now another Nokia or Ericsson. Fitting with the merger.

Nokia and Ericsson were depending heavier and heavier on their reseller
networks, and when these turned into large mobile operators and became
rather few in number the power game turned. Nokia discovered that they
couldn't do a thing with their mainstream products that weren't firmly
anchored with the operators. Never mind the end users. 

Their customers were around 30 in number for a 95% percentile and 
made increasing demands back to fit a revenue model that fitted the operators, 
not the end users.

Enter the smartphones, to challenge the operators. The operators demanded
the same from Apple and Google, only to be laughed out the door. It took
Apple and Google a few months to set up an alternate sales network. This
isn't hard when you have the hottest products.

Microsoft is getting a doze of this now. Their customers are the large
hardware vendors. They make huge demands back. The driver division in
Microsoft is a political hellhole that burns through people, but they
are rewarded with other positions after 18 months tenure there. This is
because they simply have to accommodate all the vendors weird quirks
in their hardware and keep windows stable. It is a tall order, and they
are doing a remarkable job, all considering,

But this has wider implications. Windows cannot be too big a success
on xpods or xphones without alienating this channel, which is the lifeblood
of the Microsoft revenue stream. Just as Nokia couldn't make a phone 
that was smart independently of the operator networks.

So both Microsoft, Nokia and Ericsson listened to their customers, and
ignored their customers customer. Like IBM said; if you own your customers
customers you can ignore your customers. 

-- mrr

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#159245

From"Blanco" <rko4410@gmail.com>
Date2016-02-14 04:44 +1100
Message-ID<di98cdFqrmmU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#159235

"Morten Reistad" <first@last.name.invalid> wrote in message 
news:fqt3pc-l33.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
> In article 
> <630582847.477066945.696306.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Peter Flass  <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>><hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>> On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 4:09:48 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> It wasn't a mistake, it was a smart decision.  You want to run 30 year
>>>> old software, buy a 30-year old CPU.
>>>
>>> Just as an aside, in the mainframe world, we routinely ran 30 or even
>>> 40 year old software.  The 30 y/o stuff runs native mode.  If the 40 y/o
>>> stuff was written for S/360, it will run native mode. If it was written
>>> for a prior generation of hardware, it would run under emulation.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Most companies try to develop products that give the customer what he
>>wants. Microsoft develops products that give the customer what microsoft
>>wants.
>
> Microsoft is now another Nokia or Ericsson. Fitting with the merger.
>
> Nokia and Ericsson were depending heavier and heavier on their reseller
> networks, and when these turned into large mobile operators and became
> rather few in number the power game turned. Nokia discovered that they
> couldn't do a thing with their mainstream products that weren't firmly
> anchored with the operators. Never mind the end users.
>
> Their customers were around 30 in number for a 95% percentile and
> made increasing demands back to fit a revenue model that fitted the 
> operators,
> not the end users.
>
> Enter the smartphones, to challenge the operators. The operators demanded
> the same from Apple and Google, only to be laughed out the door. It took
> Apple and Google a few months to set up an alternate sales network. This
> isn't hard when you have the hottest products.
>
> Microsoft is getting a doze of this now. Their customers are the large
> hardware vendors. They make huge demands back. The driver division in
> Microsoft is a political hellhole that burns through people, but they
> are rewarded with other positions after 18 months tenure there. This is
> because they simply have to accommodate all the vendors weird quirks
> in their hardware and keep windows stable. It is a tall order, and they
> are doing a remarkable job, all considering,
>
> But this has wider implications. Windows cannot be too big a success
> on xpods or xphones without alienating this channel, which is the 
> lifeblood
> of the Microsoft revenue stream. Just as Nokia couldn't make a phone
> that was smart independently of the operator networks.

That line doesn’t explain why Nokia was so successful before
Apple got involved in the mobile/cell phone market.

> So both Microsoft, Nokia and Ericsson listened to their customers, and
> ignored their customers customer. Like IBM said; if you own your customers
> customers you can ignore your customers.

That was never Nokia's problem. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#159278

FromMorten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid>
Date2016-02-13 23:30 +0100
Message-ID<mcn4pc-015.ln1@sambook.reistad.name>
In reply to#159245
In article <di98cdFqrmmU1@mid.individual.net>,
Blanco <rko4410@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>"Morten Reistad" <first@last.name.invalid> wrote in message 
>news:fqt3pc-l33.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
>> In article 
>> <630582847.477066945.696306.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>,
>> Peter Flass  <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>><hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>>> On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 4:09:48 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It wasn't a mistake, it was a smart decision.  You want to run 30 year
>>>>> old software, buy a 30-year old CPU.
>>>>
>>>> Just as an aside, in the mainframe world, we routinely ran 30 or even
>>>> 40 year old software.  The 30 y/o stuff runs native mode.  If the 40 y/o
>>>> stuff was written for S/360, it will run native mode. If it was written
>>>> for a prior generation of hardware, it would run under emulation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Most companies try to develop products that give the customer what he
>>>wants. Microsoft develops products that give the customer what microsoft
>>>wants.
>>
>> Microsoft is now another Nokia or Ericsson. Fitting with the merger.
>>
>> Nokia and Ericsson were depending heavier and heavier on their reseller
>> networks, and when these turned into large mobile operators and became
>> rather few in number the power game turned. Nokia discovered that they
>> couldn't do a thing with their mainstream products that weren't firmly
>> anchored with the operators. Never mind the end users.
>>
>> Their customers were around 30 in number for a 95% percentile and
>> made increasing demands back to fit a revenue model that fitted the 
>> operators,
>> not the end users.
>>
>> Enter the smartphones, to challenge the operators. The operators demanded
>> the same from Apple and Google, only to be laughed out the door. It took
>> Apple and Google a few months to set up an alternate sales network. This
>> isn't hard when you have the hottest products.
>>
>> Microsoft is getting a doze of this now. Their customers are the large
>> hardware vendors. They make huge demands back. The driver division in
>> Microsoft is a political hellhole that burns through people, but they
>> are rewarded with other positions after 18 months tenure there. This is
>> because they simply have to accommodate all the vendors weird quirks
>> in their hardware and keep windows stable. It is a tall order, and they
>> are doing a remarkable job, all considering,
>>
>> But this has wider implications. Windows cannot be too big a success
>> on xpods or xphones without alienating this channel, which is the 
>> lifeblood
>> of the Microsoft revenue stream. Just as Nokia couldn't make a phone
>> that was smart independently of the operator networks.
>
>That line doesn’t explain why Nokia was so successful before
>Apple got involved in the mobile/cell phone market.

They forced every application through a rigid infrastructure. Even
having the phone automatically register in a number of wifi zones
was beyond them. 

This meant that the door was wide open for the competition to bash
them, once they got momentum. And bash them they did. They also
discovered how hamstrung they were once the iPhone had started to
hurt. By then it was too late.

>> So both Microsoft, Nokia and Ericsson listened to their customers, and
>> ignored their customers customer. Like IBM said; if you own your customers
>> customers you can ignore your customers.
>
>That was never Nokia's problem. 

And what was?

Old technology phones. But this explains WHY they were old tech.

-- mrr

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#159302

From"Blanco" <rko4410@gmail.com>
Date2016-02-14 13:27 +1100
Message-ID<dia71hF3sfkU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#159278

"Morten Reistad" <first@last.name.invalid> wrote in message 
news:mcn4pc-015.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
> In article <di98cdFqrmmU1@mid.individual.net>,
> Blanco <rko4410@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>"Morten Reistad" <first@last.name.invalid> wrote in message
>>news:fqt3pc-l33.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
>>> In article
>>> <630582847.477066945.696306.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>> Peter Flass  <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>><hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 4:09:48 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> It wasn't a mistake, it was a smart decision.  You want to run 30 
>>>>>> year
>>>>>> old software, buy a 30-year old CPU.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just as an aside, in the mainframe world, we routinely ran 30 or even
>>>>> 40 year old software.  The 30 y/o stuff runs native mode.  If the 40 
>>>>> y/o
>>>>> stuff was written for S/360, it will run native mode. If it was 
>>>>> written
>>>>> for a prior generation of hardware, it would run under emulation.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Most companies try to develop products that give the customer what he
>>>>wants. Microsoft develops products that give the customer what microsoft
>>>>wants.
>>>
>>> Microsoft is now another Nokia or Ericsson. Fitting with the merger.
>>>
>>> Nokia and Ericsson were depending heavier and heavier on their reseller
>>> networks, and when these turned into large mobile operators and became
>>> rather few in number the power game turned. Nokia discovered that they
>>> couldn't do a thing with their mainstream products that weren't firmly
>>> anchored with the operators. Never mind the end users.
>>>
>>> Their customers were around 30 in number for a 95% percentile and
>>> made increasing demands back to fit a revenue model that fitted the
>>> operators,
>>> not the end users.
>>>
>>> Enter the smartphones, to challenge the operators. The operators 
>>> demanded
>>> the same from Apple and Google, only to be laughed out the door. It took
>>> Apple and Google a few months to set up an alternate sales network. This
>>> isn't hard when you have the hottest products.
>>>
>>> Microsoft is getting a doze of this now. Their customers are the large
>>> hardware vendors. They make huge demands back. The driver division in
>>> Microsoft is a political hellhole that burns through people, but they
>>> are rewarded with other positions after 18 months tenure there. This is
>>> because they simply have to accommodate all the vendors weird quirks
>>> in their hardware and keep windows stable. It is a tall order, and they
>>> are doing a remarkable job, all considering,
>>>
>>> But this has wider implications. Windows cannot be too big a success
>>> on xpods or xphones without alienating this channel, which is the
>>> lifeblood
>>> of the Microsoft revenue stream. Just as Nokia couldn't make a phone
>>> that was smart independently of the operator networks.
>>
>>That line doesn’t explain why Nokia was so successful before
>>Apple got involved in the mobile/cell phone market.
>
> They forced every application through a rigid infrastructure. Even
> having the phone automatically register in a number of wifi zones
> was beyond them.

That wasn’t the reason the iphone took of so spectacularly.

The UI on the iphone left nokias for dead.

The touch screen UI in spades.

It was so easy to do 3rd party apps once Apple got its act into
gear in that regard that those combined were the reason Nokia
was left in the dust and took a long time to recover on that.

And then they fucked up completely when they chose to use windows
phone instead of android as the OS for their high end phones.

> This meant that the door was wide open for the competition to bash
> them, once they got momentum. And bash them they did. They also
> discovered how hamstrung they were once the iPhone had started to
> hurt. By then it was too late.

Apple showed it was never too late if you had a clue about
where the industry was headed. Same with Google.

>>> So both Microsoft, Nokia and Ericsson listened to their customers, and
>>> ignored their customers customer. Like IBM said; if you own your 
>>> customers
>>> customers you can ignore your customers.
>>
>>That was never Nokia's problem.
>
> And what was?
>
> Old technology phones.

There was a lot more involved than just that.

Same with the Blackberry.

> But this explains WHY they were old tech.

No. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#159375

FromStephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org>
Date2016-02-14 13:43 -0600
Message-ID<n9ql6s$bmb$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#159235
On 13-Feb-16 09:13, Morten Reistad wrote:
> But this has wider implications. Windows cannot be too big a success 
> on xpods or xphones without alienating this channel, which is the
> lifeblood of the Microsoft revenue stream. Just as Nokia couldn't
> make a phone that was smart independently of the operator networks.

One must remember that Microsoft has only two profitable products:
Windows and Office.  Everything else loses money; the only reason they
exist at all is to guarantee continued sales of Windows and/or drive
competitors (whose products may also run on non-Windows platforms) out
of business.

Smartphones, tablets and the Web in general represent an existential
threat to Microsoft because they provide customers (and competitors) a
way around Windows.  Microsoft is trying to use its dominance on the
desktop to establish dominance in these spaces too, but so far, it
hasn't worked--and we may now be seeing the beginning of their end.

S

-- 
Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#159380

From"hgww" <hgww@gmail.com>
Date2016-02-15 07:31 +1100
Message-ID<dic6ghFjnbrU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#159375

"Stephen Sprunk" <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote in message 
news:n9ql6s$bmb$1@dont-email.me...
> On 13-Feb-16 09:13, Morten Reistad wrote:
>> But this has wider implications. Windows cannot be too big a success
>> on xpods or xphones without alienating this channel, which is the
>> lifeblood of the Microsoft revenue stream. Just as Nokia couldn't
>> make a phone that was smart independently of the operator networks.
>
> One must remember that Microsoft has only two profitable products:
> Windows and Office.  Everything else loses money;

That is just plain wrong with the Xbox.

And their mice and keyboards too.

the only reason they
> exist at all is to guarantee continued sales of Windows and/or drive
> competitors (whose products may also run on non-Windows platforms) out
> of business.
>
> Smartphones, tablets and the Web in general represent an existential
> threat to Microsoft because they provide customers (and competitors) a
> way around Windows.  Microsoft is trying to use its dominance on the
> desktop to establish dominance in these spaces too, but so far, it
> hasn't worked--and we may now be seeing the beginning of their end.
 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#159191

Frompechter@pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter)
Date2016-02-12 17:38 +0000
Message-ID<n9l5ak$2ud$1@pechter.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#159181
In article <MPG.312791db39f5852f989f64@news.eternal-september.org>,
J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>In article <cb6cf76e-290e-4b4d-83c9-d9b5d5eed431@googlegroups.com>, 
>hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com says...
>> 
>> On Thursday, February 11, 2016 at 8:16:05 PM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
>> 
>> > They also have a version that runs on 32-bit Windows ... but *not*
>one for 64-bit 
>> > Windows!
>> 
>> Wasn't there some sort of add-on for modern Windows to allow old DOS 
>> applications, such as QBASIC, to run on it?  
>
>Windows comes with a virtual machine, however Microsoft in recent 
>releases has crippled it in enough ways to make it less useful than it 
>once was.  It was used to support a "Virtual XP" in some versions of 
>Windows 7 that allowed 32-bit-only code to run, but that broke with some 
>16-bit code.

Can't you run WindowsXP, 2000, 98 in hyperv on Windows past version 7.

I know 8.1 had the desktop client hyper-v which seemed equivalent in function
to VMware Workstation built in.
-- 
-- 
Digital had it then.  Don't you wish you could buy it now!
pechter-at-gmail.com  http://xkcd.com/705/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#159209

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-02-12 19:33 -0500
Message-ID<MPG.312843cf83363e7e989f66@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#159191
In article <n9l5ak$2ud$1@pechter.eternal-september.org>, 
pechter@pechter.dyndns.org says...
> 
> In article <MPG.312791db39f5852f989f64@news.eternal-september.org>,
> J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> >In article <cb6cf76e-290e-4b4d-83c9-d9b5d5eed431@googlegroups.com>, 
> >hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com says...
> >> 
> >> On Thursday, February 11, 2016 at 8:16:05 PM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
> >> 
> >> > They also have a version that runs on 32-bit Windows ... but *not*
> >one for 64-bit 
> >> > Windows!
> >> 
> >> Wasn't there some sort of add-on for modern Windows to allow old DOS 
> >> applications, such as QBASIC, to run on it?  
> >
> >Windows comes with a virtual machine, however Microsoft in recent 
> >releases has crippled it in enough ways to make it less useful than it 
> >once was.  It was used to support a "Virtual XP" in some versions of 
> >Windows 7 that allowed 32-bit-only code to run, but that broke with some 
> >16-bit code.
> 
> Can't you run WindowsXP, 2000, 98 in hyperv on Windows past version 7.

One problem is that Microsoft has limited emulation of legacy I/O 
devices and you may not be able to find drivers for older operating 
systems that support the I/O devices that Microsoft emulates.  This 
means that you may find yourself lacking a keyboard, or a mouse, or 
video, or something else important, depending on what you're trying to 
run.
> 
> I know 8.1 had the desktop client hyper-v which seemed equivalent in function
> to VMware Workstation built in.

It's the same VM technology that goes into the server products--
Microsoft's aiming that at running multiple Windows 7+ or Linux sessions 
on a single server, not at supporting legacy systems, which limits its 
utility on the desktop.  

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