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off topic: old house wiring?

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  off topic:  old house wiring? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-09 11:01 -0800
    Re: off topic:  old house wiring? Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-12-09 14:17 -0600
      Re: off topic:  old house wiring? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-12-09 16:18 -0500
        Re: off topic:  old house wiring? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-09 13:38 -0800
          Re: off topic: old house wiring? philo <philo@privacy.net> - 2015-12-09 17:38 -0600
          Re: off topic:  old house wiring? Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-12-10 13:54 -0600
    Re: off topic:  old house wiring? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-12-09 21:43 +0100
      Re: off topic:  old house wiring? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-09 13:19 -0800
        Re: off topic:  old house wiring? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-12-12 10:38 -0600
          Re: off topic:  old house wiring? "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-12-12 16:53 +0000
          Re: off topic:  old house wiring? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-12-12 18:06 +0100
            Re: off topic:  old house wiring? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-12-12 11:31 -0600
            Re: off topic:  old house wiring? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-12 11:25 -0800
          Re: off topic:  old house wiring? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-12-12 18:41 +0000
            Re: off topic:  old house wiring? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-12-12 17:14 -0600
              Re: off topic:  old house wiring? Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> - 2015-12-12 23:31 +0000
              Re: off topic:  old house wiring? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-12-12 21:42 -0500
      Re: off topic: old house wiring? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-09 16:22 -0500
        Re: off topic: old house wiring? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-09 13:42 -0800
          Re: off topic: old house wiring? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-09 17:11 -0500
          Re: off topic: old house wiring? cmadams@cmadams.net (Chris Adams) - 2015-12-09 19:41 -0600
        Re: off topic: old house wiring? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-12-10 01:54 +0100
          Re: off topic: old house wiring? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-12-09 22:42 -0600
            Re: off topic: old house wiring? Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-12-14 17:28 -0600
              Re: off topic: old house wiring? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-12-15 08:19 +0000
                Re: off topic: old house wiring? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-12-15 09:48 +0100
                Re: off topic: old house wiring? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-16 09:53 -0800
          Re: off topic: old house wiring? "Ranger" <r5432@gmail.com> - 2015-12-10 17:44 +1100
          Re: off topic: old house wiring? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-10 15:23 -0500
            Re: off topic: old house wiring? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-12-10 20:49 +0000
            Re: off topic: old house wiring? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-12-10 23:48 +0000
              Re: off topic: old house wiring? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-12-10 23:12 -0500
                Re: off topic: old house wiring? mausg@mail.com - 2015-12-11 10:12 +0000
                Re: off topic: old house wiring? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-12-11 08:31 -0600
                  Re: off topic: old house wiring? "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-12-11 14:47 +0000
                    Re: off topic: old house wiring? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-12-11 09:06 -0600
                      Re: off topic: old house wiring? "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-12-11 15:49 +0000
                        Re: off topic: old house wiring? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-11 09:37 -0800
              Re: off topic: old house wiring? mausg@mail.com - 2015-12-11 10:08 +0000
                Re: off topic: old house wiring? cmadams@cmadams.net (Chris Adams) - 2015-12-11 08:38 -0600
                  Re: off topic: old house wiring? mausg@mail.com - 2015-12-11 16:24 +0000
                Re: off topic: old house wiring? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-12-11 15:17 +0100
                  Re: off topic: old house wiring? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-11 09:30 -0800
                    Re: off topic: old house wiring? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-11 12:43 -0600
                      Re: off topic: old house wiring? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-11 11:09 -0800
                        Re: off topic: old house wiring? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-12-11 22:56 +0000
                      Re: off topic: old house wiring? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-12-11 14:47 -0500
                        Re: off topic: old house wiring? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-12-11 15:13 -0600
        Re: off topic: old house wiring? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-09 22:39 -0600
          Re: off topic: old house wiring? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-12-09 23:12 -0600
            Re: off topic: old house wiring? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-10 00:59 -0600
          Re: off topic: old house wiring? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-12-10 09:48 +0100
            Re: off topic: old house wiring? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-12-10 12:40 +0000
            Re: off topic: old house wiring? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-10 11:02 -0600
              Re: off topic: old house wiring? Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2015-12-11 22:01 -0600
                Re: off topic: old house wiring? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-12 00:48 -0600
                  Re: off topic: old house wiring? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-12-12 11:16 +0100
        Re: off topic: old house wiring? Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2015-12-14 17:25 -0600
          Re: off topic: old house wiring? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-12-16 09:45 -0800
      Re: off topic:  old house wiring? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-12-10 14:06 +0000
      Re: off topic:  old house wiring? "capek@ieee.org <Peter Capek>" <peter.capek@gmail.com> - 2015-12-12 11:50 -0800
        Re: off topic:  old house wiring? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-12-12 16:56 -0600

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#155038 — Re: off topic: old house wiring?

On 2015-12-11, Chris Adams <cmadams@cmadams.net> wrote:
> Once upon a time,  <mausg@mail.com> said:
>>The most daring robbery I have heard of recently was an East European
>>gang that was stealing mains electricity wires.
>
> That is (sadly) not uncommon.  There have been cases here where a couple
> of Bubbas with a pickup truck and a shotgun have shoot a wire off a
> pole, figured out which end is dead, hitch it to their truck, and drive
> down the street, pulling more wire down.  When they get all they can
> handle, they pile it in the truck and drive off to the scrap metal
> dealer.
>
> Occasionally, they don't know how to figure out which end is live, and
> there's a Darwin award.

Its hard not to laugh!.
There _IS_ equipment for dealing with live hi-voltage wires.

>
> About 15 years ago, $DAYJOB had a fiber optic network link go down in
> the middle of the night because the Bubbas didn't know the difference
> between power and network cables (and their respective heights on the
> poles).  They pulled down a good chunk of it before they figured out
> they had the wrong thing, so it took most of a day for the cable company
> to repair the section.
>


-- 
greymaus
 .
  .
...

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#155035 — Re: off topic: old house wiring?

In article <slrnn6l85i.19r.mausg@smaus.org>,  <mausg@mail.com> wrote:
>On 2015-12-10, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2015-12-10, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I boggle at the amount of metal in your distribution network.
>>>> 63 amps takes 16mm2, 12 in air spans. That is for copper cable, 
>>>> al is 1.3 times more. Easily half a kg per meter for the cable.
>>>> 
>>>> 200A is three times that, and then the pure raw material price
>>>> of the copper or aluminium will start to matter, going into 
>>>> double digit dollars per meter.
>>>
>>> It matters now.  During the foreclosure crisis thieves were breaking into
>>> vacant houses and stripping out the  copper wire.  Most plumbing now is
>>> PVC, but where it was copper they were taking that too.
>>
>> We had a local vacant house flooded this way; the thieves didn't even
>> bother shutting the water off before taking the pipes.
>>
>> I heard of a bit of poetic justice when a copper thief tried to make
>> off with what turned out to be a ground wire at a local substation.
>> He earned a Darwin Award.
>>
>
>The most daring robbery I have heard of recently was an East European
>gang that was stealing mains electricity wires.

How about stealing the third rail from a live metro system?

-- mrr

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#155040 — Re: off topic: old house wiring?

On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 11:11:36 AM UTC-5, Morten Reistad wrote:

> >The most daring robbery I have heard of recently was an East European
> >gang that was stealing mains electricity wires.
> 
> How about stealing the third rail from a live metro system?

Did that actually happen?

I think such third rails are made mostly of steel, with some copper
added to improve conductivity.

But, yes, there has been efforts to steal overhead wire from
tram systems, and signal wire from railroad systems.  One such
attempt was caught and the father-son team ended up in jail.

In the U.S., I can't help but suspect someone will attempt to
steal live power lines, get injured, and then successfully
sue the power company for their injuries.  It's like burglars
getting injured in the course of a house robbery and sucessfully
suing the homeowner.

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#155045 — Re: off topic: old house wiring?

On 11-Dec-15 11:30, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> But, yes, there has been efforts to steal overhead wire from tram
> systems, and signal wire from railroad systems.  One such attempt was
> caught and the father-son team ended up in jail.
> 
> In the U.S., I can't help but suspect someone will attempt to steal
> live power lines, get injured, and then successfully sue the power
> company for their injuries.  It's like burglars getting injured in
> the course of a house robbery and sucessfully suing the homeowner.

There's no shortage of news stories about people dying while trying to
steal live power lines--dozens per year.  However, none of the ones I
found in a brief search mentioned a civil suit by their estate, but
perhaps that's because they just hadn't been filed by press time.

Contributory negligence could play a role in such a case, but it's also
possible that utilities have statutory immunity; they get special status
for a lot of things, e.g. eminent domain.

S

-- 
Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

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#155050 — Re: off topic: old house wiring?

On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 1:43:15 PM UTC-5, Stephen Sprunk wrote:

> Contributory negligence could play a role in such a case, but it's also
> possible that utilities have statutory immunity; they get special status
> for a lot of things, e.g. eminent domain.

Good point.

I suspect railroads have a similar immunity, given the rarity of
successful actions against them from grade crossing accidents or
kids trespassing on the tracks.

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#155080 — Re: off topic: old house wiring?

On 2015-12-11, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 1:43:15 PM UTC-5, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>
>> Contributory negligence could play a role in such a case, but it's also
>> possible that utilities have statutory immunity; they get special status
>> for a lot of things, e.g. eminent domain.
>
> Good point.
>
> I suspect railroads have a similar immunity, given the rarity of
> successful actions against them from grade crossing accidents or
> kids trespassing on the tracks.

Even then, fences and "No trespassing" signs went up along tracks
around and near the local rail yard, after a teenager walking along
the track got hit by a train.  How he didn't notice the train coming
is beyond me; those headphones must have been turned up _really_ high.

  The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen
  and stupidity.  -- Harlan Ellison

  There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe,
  and it has a longer shelf life.  -- Frank Zappa

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

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#155056 — Re: off topic: old house wiring?

On Fri, 11 Dec 2015, Stephen Sprunk wrote:

> On 11-Dec-15 11:30, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>> But, yes, there has been efforts to steal overhead wire from tram
>> systems, and signal wire from railroad systems.  One such attempt was
>> caught and the father-son team ended up in jail.
>>
>> In the U.S., I can't help but suspect someone will attempt to steal
>> live power lines, get injured, and then successfully sue the power
>> company for their injuries.  It's like burglars getting injured in
>> the course of a house robbery and sucessfully suing the homeowner.
>
> There's no shortage of news stories about people dying while trying to
> steal live power lines--dozens per year.  However, none of the ones I
> found in a brief search mentioned a civil suit by their estate, but
> perhaps that's because they just hadn't been filed by press time.
>
Gee, one time a closet socket went bad, it was just a socket mounted on 
the wall with a cord that plugged into the AC outlet, and a switch. 
Having tried another bulb, it was the socket.

So I proceed to cut off the line cord, use it for something else.  And I'd 
forgotten to unplug it.

I still have the cutters, nice notches in them where they shorted out the 
AC line before blowing a fuse. I was lucky, though I guess both side were 
hit close enough together that the short happened before there was time 
for any of the AC to run through my body.

    Michael

> Contributory negligence could play a role in such a case, but it's also
> possible that utilities have statutory immunity; they get special status
> for a lot of things, e.g. eminent domain.
>
> S
>
> -- 
> Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
> CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
> K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
>

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#155064 — Re: off topic: old house wiring?

"Michael Black" <et472@ncf.ca> wrote in message 
news:alpine.LNX.2.02.1512111445150.29186@darkstar.example.org...
>
>       [snip...]                          [snip...] 
> [snip...]
>
> Gee, one time a closet socket went bad, it was just a socket mounted on 
> the wall with a cord that plugged into the AC outlet, and a switch. Having 
> tried another bulb, it was the socket.
>
> So I proceed to cut off the line cord, use it for something else.  And I'd 
> forgotten to unplug it.
>
> I still have the cutters, nice notches in them where they shorted out the 
> AC line before blowing a fuse. I was lucky, though I guess both side were 
> hit close enough together that the short happened before there was time 
> for any of the AC to run through my body.
>

ISTM that what burned the pliers was the *arc* of electricity through the 
air just before the pliers closed on the wire.  You probably should have 
shunted the end of the pliers with a nice capacitor to prevent the arcing!

-- 

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

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#154941 — Re: off topic: old house wiring?

On 09-Dec-15 15:22, Peter Flass wrote:
> Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
>> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>> (As mentioned, our family didn't bother upgrading to 100 amp as
>>> it was rather expensive, we could make do with our one a/c and 60
>>> amp.  but we no longer live in that house.)
>> 
>> I am a little taken aback by these numbers. We have a three-phase
>> 63A intake, which is HUGE in Europe. We do get 63 x 235 x 1.71 ~=
>> 25 kW. by that. Enough for several rapid electric car chargers plus
>> a lot of house.
> 
> 100 amps seems to have been the minimum here for many years.  I don't
> know if newer construction supports more, though I wouldn't be
> surprised.

My house has a 200A/240V main breaker plus 60A/240V for stove/oven,
50A/240V for A/C, 30A/240V for dryer, and a dozen or so 20A/120V and
15A/120V for everything else, which seems typical these days.

48kVA of capacity does seem like serious overkill, though; my electric
bill runs 500kWh/mo (fall/winter/spring) to 1500kWh/mo (summer), which
averages out to 0.7W to 2.1W of actual usage.

S

-- 
Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

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#154944 — Re: off topic: old house wiring?

"Stephen Sprunk" wrote:

> My house has a 200A/240V main breaker plus 60A/240V for stove/oven,
> 50A/240V for A/C, 30A/240V for dryer, and a dozen or so 20A/120V and
> 15A/120V for everything else, which seems typical these days.
>
> 48kVA of capacity does seem like serious overkill, though; my electric
> bill runs 500kWh/mo (fall/winter/spring) to 1500kWh/mo (summer), which
> averages out to 0.7W to 2.1W of actual usage.

Before posting, did you stop to consider that those little incandescent 
night lights were 7 Watts?

I know that sick feeling. 

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#154947 — Re: off topic: old house wiring?

On 09-Dec-15 23:12, Osmium wrote:
> "Stephen Sprunk" wrote:
>> 48kVA of capacity does seem like serious overkill, though; my
>> electric bill runs 500kWh/mo (fall/winter/spring) to 1500kWh/mo
>> (summer), which averages out to 0.7W to 2.1W of actual usage.
> 
> Before posting, did you stop to consider that those little
> incandescent night lights were 7 Watts?

Argh.  I obviously meant to type 0.7 to 2.1 _kilo_ Watts.

S

-- 
Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

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#154955 — Re: off topic: old house wiring?

In article <n4avhn$7gv$1@dont-email.me>,
Stephen Sprunk  <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote:
>On 09-Dec-15 15:22, Peter Flass wrote:
>> Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
>>> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>>> (As mentioned, our family didn't bother upgrading to 100 amp as
>>>> it was rather expensive, we could make do with our one a/c and 60
>>>> amp.  but we no longer live in that house.)
>>> 
>>> I am a little taken aback by these numbers. We have a three-phase
>>> 63A intake, which is HUGE in Europe. We do get 63 x 235 x 1.71 ~=
>>> 25 kW. by that. Enough for several rapid electric car chargers plus
>>> a lot of house.
>> 
>> 100 amps seems to have been the minimum here for many years.  I don't
>> know if newer construction supports more, though I wouldn't be
>> surprised.
>
>My house has a 200A/240V main breaker plus 60A/240V for stove/oven,
>50A/240V for A/C, 30A/240V for dryer, and a dozen or so 20A/120V and
>15A/120V for everything else, which seems typical these days.
>
>48kVA of capacity does seem like serious overkill, though; my electric
>bill runs 500kWh/mo (fall/winter/spring) to 1500kWh/mo (summer), which
>averages out to 0.7W to 2.1W of actual usage.

kW I presume.

48kVA / 240V = 200 A; i.e. single phase?

On this side of the water we use three-phase for every home with more
than ~30A connections. Newer housing deployments get 400 TN-S; i.e.
400 phase to phase and 235 phase to neutral.

This saves around 60% on the metal in the connections vs a single phase
240V connection.

And I just cannot see how a home at < 300m2 (~3ksqf) could reasonably
use more than 25 kVA. The hot water boiler takes 4, 2x stoves at max
take 12, leaving 9 for general heating and a/c. But that is me. We even
manage to have two electric car chargers at 7.2 and 3 kW beside what
the 12kW stove and heating take.

Average use is 950W in summer and nearly 3 in winter. 

-- mrr

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#154956 — Re: off topic: old house wiring?

On Thu, 10 Dec 2015 09:48:18 +0100
Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:

> kW I presume.
> 
> 48kVA / 240V = 200 A; i.e. single phase?
> 
> On this side of the water we use three-phase for every home with more
> than ~30A connections. Newer housing deployments get 400 TN-S; i.e.
> 400 phase to phase and 235 phase to neutral.

	Mainland Europe perhaps - here in Ireland the typical house feed is
63A single phase 230V(ish) - I think it's the same in the UK too, domestic
three phase is almost unheard of in either country.

> And I just cannot see how a home at < 300m2 (~3ksqf) could reasonably
> use more than 25 kVA.

	Power showers can bump the peak a lot, 9Kw is a small one - one
reason we didn't install any. Stick a couple of those and one of those big
range style electric cookers in and you'll soon peak over 25kVA.

	I know we *could* draw more than that but realistically I doubt we
hit 10kVA very often or for long. Year round average is less than 1kW (no
electric heating).

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#154964 — Re: off topic: old house wiring?

On 10-Dec-15 02:48, Morten Reistad wrote:
> Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote:
>> On 09-Dec-15 15:22, Peter Flass wrote:
>>> 100 amps seems to have been the minimum here for many years.  I
>>> don't know if newer construction supports more, though I wouldn't
>>> be surprised.
>> 
>> My house has a 200A/240V main breaker plus 60A/240V for
>> stove/oven, 50A/240V for A/C, 30A/240V for dryer, and a dozen or so
>> 20A/120V and 15A/120V for everything else, which seems typical
>> these days.
>> 
>> 48kVA of capacity does seem like serious overkill, though; my
>> electric bill runs 500kWh/mo (fall/winter/spring) to 1500kWh/mo
>> (summer), which averages out to 0.7W to 2.1W of actual usage.
> 
> kW I presume.

Yes.

> 48kVA / 240V = 200 A; i.e. single phase?

The utility feed is 240V split-phase: L-L at 240V, L-N at 120V.

Large loads (see above) get a 240V LLNG circuit, while regular loads get
a 120V LNG circuit; roughly half of the latter will be connected to each
utility leg.

Older homes didn't have a ground, so 240V LLN and 120V LN.  Such homes
are grandfathered in, but if you touch the wiring for a circuit at all,
that goes away and you have to replace it all the way back to the
breaker panel, so there is less and less of it over time.

> On this side of the water we use three-phase for every home with
> more than ~30A connections. Newer housing deployments get 400 TN-S;
> i.e. 400 phase to phase and 235 phase to neutral.

Depending on various factors, we may have single-phase or three-phase at
the pole, but in the latter case, each customer (or group of customers
on the same transformer) is only connected to one phase.

Small commercial customers get 3-phase, typically 480V; large ones will
get 4kV or even 27kV and then step it down themselves as needed.

> And I just cannot see how a home at < 300m2 (~3ksqf) could
> reasonably use more than 25 kVA. The hot water boiler takes 4, 2x
> stoves at max take 12, leaving 9 for general heating and a/c. But
> that is me. We even manage to have two electric car chargers at 7.2
> and 3 kW beside what the 12kW stove and heating take.
> 
> Average use is 950W in summer and nearly 3 in winter.

See above for mine.  I checked my meter's real-time usage stats, and it
appears I'm generally under 1kW, with periodic spikes (probably A/C) to
3-5kW, so my 48kVA capacity appears utterly insane.

S

-- 
Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

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#155085 — Re: off topic: old house wiring?

Stephen Sprunk wrote:


> See above for mine.  I checked my meter's real-time usage stats, and it
> appears I'm generally under 1kW, with periodic spikes (probably A/C) to
> 3-5kW, so my 48kVA capacity appears utterly insane.

They have to size it for worst-case peak, so it doesn't trip master breakers 
or burn the house down.  Some houses have electric clothes dryers, electric 
ovens and electric air conditioning.  If all of these units were to cycle on 
at the same time, the demand will be pretty high.

Jon

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#155091 — Re: off topic: old house wiring?

On 11-Dec-15 22:01, Jon Elson wrote:
> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>> See above for mine.  I checked my meter's real-time usage stats,
>> and it appears I'm generally under 1kW, with periodic spikes
>> (probably A/C) to 3-5kW, so my 48kVA capacity appears utterly
>> insane.
> 
> They have to size it for worst-case peak, so it doesn't trip master
> breakers or burn the house down. 

The total of the individual breakers is 72.6kVA, so a 48kVA master
breaker isn't even close to covering that.  There is no danger of
burning the house down either way, though.

> Some houses have electric clothes dryers, electric ovens and
> electric air conditioning.  If all of these units were to cycle on
> at the same time, the demand will be pretty high.

My hourly usage has _never_ exceeded 5kW since the smart meter was
installed.  As you note, peak current when a heavy load cycles on will
be higher than the hourly average, so 10-15kVA is probably warranted,
but 48kVA still seems like massive overkill.

S

-- 
Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

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#155117 — Re: off topic: old house wiring?

In article <n4gfs1$8ve$1@dont-email.me>,
Stephen Sprunk  <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote:
>On 11-Dec-15 22:01, Jon Elson wrote:
>> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>>> See above for mine.  I checked my meter's real-time usage stats,
>>> and it appears I'm generally under 1kW, with periodic spikes
>>> (probably A/C) to 3-5kW, so my 48kVA capacity appears utterly
>>> insane.
>> 
>> They have to size it for worst-case peak, so it doesn't trip master
>> breakers or burn the house down. 
>
>The total of the individual breakers is 72.6kVA, so a 48kVA master
>breaker isn't even close to covering that.  There is no danger of
>burning the house down either way, though.

Overcommit of just ca 50%. We have 10x16A and 8x10A single phase, 
3x25A triphase, and one 40A triphase on triphase 63A; which gives 
an overcommit of around 4:1, even when considering 1/sqrt(3) for
the single phase ones.

>> Some houses have electric clothes dryers, electric ovens and
>> electric air conditioning.  If all of these units were to cycle on
>> at the same time, the demand will be pretty high.
>
>My hourly usage has _never_ exceeded 5kW since the smart meter was
>installed.  As you note, peak current when a heavy load cycles on will
>be higher than the hourly average, so 10-15kVA is probably warranted,
>but 48kVA still seems like massive overkill.

Indeed. We were able to fit a semi-rapid car charger at 3x40A fuse,
3x24A payload confortably within the main fuse capacity.

-- mrr

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#155200 — Re: off topic: old house wiring?

Peter Flass wrote:


> 100 amps seems to have been the minimum here for many years.  I don't know
> if newer construction supports more, though I wouldn't be surprised.
> 
I've been in a few older homes with 60 A (240 V) service in the US.  I think 
an apartment I had MANY years ago had 30A service.  The guy from the power 
company connected it wrong, 120 V to both hots on the meter, so the meter 
was mutiplying current X zero Volts, so I basically got a whole summer of 
air conditioning for the monthly connection fee.  But, the stove didn't 
work.  When I told them what they'd done wrong, they tried to charge me for 
the worst case consumption that I COULD have pulled without blowing the 
fuses for the total three months.  I had to get loud and tell them that I 
was not going to pay for their dumb installer's mistake.

My current house has 200 A 240 V service.  So called "all electric" houses 
with electric heat or electric backup on the heat pump often have 400 A 
service.

Jon

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#155261 — Re: off topic: old house wiring?

On Monday, December 14, 2015 at 6:22:49 PM UTC-5, Jon Elson wrote:


> My current house has 200 A 240 V service.  So called "all electric" houses 
> with electric heat or electric backup on the heat pump often have 400 A 
> service.

All-electric homes were popular and advertised as such in the late
1960s.  The electric companies liked them because electric heat
made use of otherwise idle capacity in the winter.  The appliance
industry liked it because they often had a package deal with the
developer.  Our community was built with Westinghouse stuff--
everything was made by them.  Westinghouse sold its appliances
to White Industries, and Westinghouse itself is gone.  Someone
else now is using the name (like how RCA's name is used by
others today in both electronics and recordings).

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#154957

Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> writes:
>In article <4bfe5610-cbb3-4dd2-a711-f9af1720f640@googlegroups.com>,
> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>At the end of WW II, in the late 1940s and early 1950s, a
>>zillion houses were built for the returning servicemen and
>>their new families.  Actually, during the war itself a 
>>fair number of "defense" housing units were built to
>>house workers at key defense plants.
>>
>>Anyway, based on the other thread, I was wondering 
>>what kind of shape is their electrical wiring in?
>>It's been 60-65 years, and insulation can decay
>>over time.
>>
>>While I suspect most homeowners have upgraded their
>>main service to more power, I don't think they 
>>underwent the expense to rewire every room in the
>>house--they could get rather expensive, especially
>>for simple houses and modest-income residents.
>>
>>(As mentioned, our family didn't bother upgrading
>>to 100 amp as it was rather expensive, we could
>>make do with our one a/c and 60 amp.  but we no 
>>longer live in that house.)
>>
>I am a little taken aback by these numbers. We have
>a three-phase 63A intake, which is HUGE in Europe.
>We do get 63 x 235 x 1.71 ~= 25 kW. by that. Enough
>for several rapid electric car chargers plus a lot
>of house.

And a 100A 240VAC North American service provides 24kW.   Typical
in my neighborhood.

My father's house has 400A 240VAC service (96kW)
because it was built in the seventies with electric
forced air heat (and very very low electric rates
and the only alternative at the time was propane).

They finally ran CH4 to his subdivision and he now heats
with that (and the formerly cheap REC coal fired plant nearby was
demolished last year).

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