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Enigma rotor made of PCBs

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  Enigma rotor made of PCBs davidmylastname@acm.org (David Griffith) - 2015-10-17 01:47 +0000
    Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-10-16 22:18 -0500
      Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-10-19 13:11 +0000
    Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2015-10-16 21:44 -0600
    Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2015-10-21 11:35 -0500
      Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2015-10-22 11:38 +0000
        Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-10-22 16:18 +0100
          Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-10-22 18:22 +0000
            Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-22 17:32 -0700
          Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "78lp" <78lp@nospam.com> - 2015-10-23 14:14 +1100
        Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-10-22 11:48 -0400
        Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-22 11:08 -0700
        Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "78lp" <78lp@nospam.com> - 2015-10-23 14:21 +1100
          Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-10-23 10:43 +0200
            Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2015-10-23 11:06 +0000
              Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-23 10:00 -0500
                Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-10-23 16:22 +0100
                Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2015-10-23 17:27 +0000
                Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-10-23 13:40 -0400
                  Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2015-10-24 06:54 +0000
                  Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2015-10-24 10:57 +0000
                    Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-10-25 18:47 -0500
              Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "78lp" <78lp@nospam.com> - 2015-10-24 12:36 +1100
            Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "78lp" <78lp@nospam.com> - 2015-10-24 12:29 +1100
          Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-23 10:24 -0500
            Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-10-23 10:32 -0700
              Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-23 13:51 -0500
              Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2015-10-24 10:36 +0000
            Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-10-23 13:36 -0400
              Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2015-10-23 15:13 -0500
                Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> - 2015-10-23 20:25 +0000
                  Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-23 15:51 -0500
                    Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-23 15:59 -0500
                  Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-24 18:51 +0100
                  Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2015-11-20 21:33 -0500
                    Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2015-11-20 23:12 -0600
              Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-10-23 14:14 -0700
                Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> - 2015-10-23 22:10 +0000
                  Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-10-24 09:10 +0200
                Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-10-23 19:19 -0500
                Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-10-23 20:13 -0500
                  Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-10-24 09:13 -0400
              Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2015-10-24 10:47 +0000
            Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2015-10-23 14:46 -0500
              Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-10-23 15:48 -0500
    Re: Enigma rotor made of PCBs barrym95838@yahoo.com - 2015-10-22 23:40 -0700

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#153299

On 2015-10-23, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, Osmium wrote:
>
>> "Greymaus" wrote:
>>
>>> On 2015-10-23, Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
>>>> In article <d8tnd3F2uqpU1@mid.individual.net>, 78lp <78lp@nospam.com> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> "Greymaus" <mausg@mail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:slrnn2hltd.3tf.mausg@dmaus.org...
>>
> She isn't yet 90  either.  I was thinking of suggesting to my mother, who 
> turned 92 in August, that she send a birthday card to the Queen next year 

Don't forget the cheque: I once sent a cheque to a famous man, in the course of
business, unfortunatly (It was many years ago), I forgot to keep the returned 
cashed. Now when I tell people of it, they will not believe it.

I believe that for many years, Dr. Knuth would pay for any reports of errors in
TeX, cost him nothing because ppeople do not cash his cheques, but keep them 
on display.

> on her 90th.  Kind of a reverse, the queen will send cards for certain 
> epic dates in people's lives, though the standards are high enough that it 
> eliminates most people.
>
> Prince Philip is 94.  I was thinking he might be younger, that happens 
> sometimes, but apparently not.
>
> I hear the Queen won't take in any more corgis now, she's worried about 
> tripping over them.
>
>    Michael
>

(The Queen used to send a cheque to 100th birthday people)


-- 
greymaus
 .
  .
...

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#153334

"Greymaus" <mausg@mail.com> wrote in message 
news:slrnn2ms88.41c.mausg@dmaus.org...
>
>              [snip...]                       [snip...] 
> [snip...]
>
> Don't forget the cheque: I once sent a cheque to a famous man, in the 
> course of
> business, unfortunatly (It was many years ago), I forgot to keep the 
> returned
> cashed. Now when I tell people of it, they will not believe it.
>
> I believe that for many years, Dr. Knuth would pay for any reports of 
> errors in
> TeX, cost him nothing because ppeople do not cash his cheques, but keep 
> them
> on display.
>


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth_reward_check

-- 

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

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#153291

"Greymaus" <mausg@mail.com> wrote in message 
news:slrnn2k8c8.42k.mausg@dmaus.org...
> On 2015-10-23, Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
>> In article <d8tnd3F2uqpU1@mid.individual.net>, 78lp <78lp@nospam.com> 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>"Greymaus" <mausg@mail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:slrnn2hltd.3tf.mausg@dmaus.org...
>>>> On 2015-10-21, Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> wrote:
>>>>> David Griffith wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> The Question: Why was the whole Enigma project kept secret so long
>>>
>>
>> One tidbit here; the Queen of the UK and a score of other
>> nations keeps her own crypto machines jealously guarded and
>> the UK is not involved, except as consultants for the
>> secrecy.
>>
>> The royals operate the cipher machines themselves, and no
>> servants are allowed in the room while this happens. This
>> is very unusual for royals; they usually have servants
>> doing everything for them.
>>
>> The rationale is that she needs secure channels to all
>> her subject nations, none of which should eavesdrop on any
>> other.
>
>
> I find all that hard to believe, an 80++year woman, and her
> 90++ old husband?.

Yeah, me too. She may well have done at one time, but I bet
she doesn’t anymore.

> She really has no subjects any more, the
> `Commonwealth' is a group of (mosty white) countries that have gone their
> seperate ways.

Yep, and even her dad didn’t have any either.

> There is supposadly an onionlke organization of countries
> the the US share data, and the inner core is these countries
> (Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the UK).

Yep, the 5 eyes group.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes

The only reason NZ is included is because it would otherwise be the
4 eyes group and it was felt that that name would be a tad down market. 

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#153290

"Morten Reistad" <first@last.name.invalid> wrote in message 
news:bi8pfc-j39.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
> In article <d8tnd3F2uqpU1@mid.individual.net>, 78lp <78lp@nospam.com> 
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>"Greymaus" <mausg@mail.com> wrote in message
>>news:slrnn2hltd.3tf.mausg@dmaus.org...
>>> On 2015-10-21, Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> wrote:
>>>> David Griffith wrote:
>>>>
>>> The Question: Why was the whole Enigma project kept secret so long
>>
>>Basically because they wanted to continue to read the traffic that
>>others were doing after the war had ended, during the cold war.
>>
>>If it had been clear what they could read, more secure communication
>>would have been used so they couldn’t read it.
>>
>>> AFAIK, the reason was that Enigmas were produced after the war by a
>>> Swiss company, and used bysecond level countries for what they thouht 
>>> was
>>> secure
>>> communic
>>
>>Not just the physical machine, the technique used to break
>>is also applicable to what is used to secure communication.
>>
>>And not just second level countries either, there was an
>>immense amount of effort that went into reading the
>>communications of the USSR and the soviet bloc etc.
>
> One tidbit here; the Queen of the UK and a score of other
> nations keeps her own crypto machines jealously guarded and
> the UK is not involved, except as consultants for the
> secrecy.
>
> The royals operate the cipher machines themselves, and no
> servants are allowed in the room while this happens. This
> is very unusual for royals; they usually have servants
> doing everything for them.
>
> The rationale is that she needs secure channels to all
> her subject nations,

Liz has no subject nations. Her dad didn’t have any either.

> none of which should eavesdrop on any other.

They do it all the time, as Snowdon exposed. 

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#153251

"78lp" wrote:

> "Greymaus" <mausg@mail.com> wrote in message 
> news:slrnn2hltd.3tf.mausg@dmaus.org...
>> On 2015-10-21, Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> wrote:
>>> David Griffith wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've been toying with the idea of making a replica of the Enigma
>>>> encrypter using as much mechanical components as possible.  The most
>>>> complicated parts appear to making and wiring the rotors.  I suppose 
>>>> the
>>>> rotors could be turned by a solenoid instead of levers from the keys.
>>>>
>>>> So, the rotors.  How feasable is it to make an Enigma rotor from
>>>> multi-layer PCB?
>>>>
>>> You ought to take a look at the work done by Tatjana van Vark in the
>>> Netherlands.  She built a crypto machine similar to an Enigma.
>>>
>>> http://www.tatjavanvark.nl/tvv1/pht10.html
>>>
>>> She also has done some AMAZING other stuff, has a working Litton 
>>> inertial
>>> measuring unit, the complete electronics suite from a Vulcan bomber is 
>>> in
>>> her dining room.
>>
>>
>> The Question: Why was the whole Enigma project kept secret so long
>
> Basically because they wanted to continue to read the traffic that
> others were doing after the war had ended, during the cold war.
>
> If it had been clear what they could read, more secure communication
> would have been used so they couldn’t read it.
>
>> AFAIK, the reason was that Enigmas were produced after the war by a
>> Swiss company, and used bysecond level countries for what they thouht was 
>> secure
>> communic
>
> Not just the physical machine, the technique used to break
> is also applicable to what is used to secure communication.

I have probably read as much as anyone on Enigma.  And I *still* don't know 
just how breakable it is. There are a lot of people spouting off who 
shouldn't be, and I have difficulty separating what those people said from 
the trustworthy people.  In my mind, I guess, I think the Enigma is not very 
breakable at all.  To me, the most interesting question is: "Can the Enigma 
be broken without cribs"?  My tentative answer is "no", in other words a 
workable protocol for usage can be established and the Enigma is virtually 
unbreakable. Today.

BTW, my fantasy protocol includes the rule: There must be at least three 
misspellings in the clear text given to the crypto guy. 

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#153255

On Friday, October 23, 2015 at 9:24:22 AM UTC-6, Osmium wrote:
> In my mind, I guess, I think the Enigma is not very 
> breakable at all.  To me, the most interesting question is: "Can the Enigma 
> be broken without cribs"?  My tentative answer is "no", in other words a 
> workable protocol for usage can be established and the Enigma is virtually 
> unbreakable. Today.

For a few short messages sent with a given set of rotor wirings, and if the 
starting position of the rotors is treated as part of the key - taken from a 
one-time keybook for every message - it might well be unbreakable today.

That wouldn't make it a useful cipher for practical purposes today - in any 
real-world usage scenario, it would be quite breakable indeed.

John Savard

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#153264

"Quadibloc" wrote:

> On Friday, October 23, 2015 at 9:24:22 AM UTC-6, Osmium wrote:
>> In my mind, I guess, I think the Enigma is not very
>> breakable at all.  To me, the most interesting question is: "Can the 
>> Enigma
>> be broken without cribs"?  My tentative answer is "no", in other words a
>> workable protocol for usage can be established and the Enigma is 
>> virtually
>> unbreakable. Today.
>
> For a few short messages sent with a given set of rotor wirings, and if 
> the
> starting position of the rotors is treated as part of the key - taken from 
> a
> one-time keybook for every message - it might well be unbreakable today.
>
> That wouldn't make it a useful cipher for practical purposes today - in 
> any
> real-world usage scenario, it would be quite breakable indeed.

I guess we disagree. However, I think we are discussing gradations of 
infinity.  Since my Enigma protocol is mostly imaginary, but a necessary 
part of a resolution, we can't resolve it.

I assume that, because of speed constraints, only keys are exchanged by 
Diffie-Hellman techniques and real messages, such as bank transfers, use 
something more mundane like DES.  I Would expect new keys to be exchanged 
infrequently, say monthly or yearly. The DH password is for life, the life 
of a person or an organization.

A perfect technique would allow any message as a possible decrypt.  If I 
saw *an* Enigma decrypt I would most likely think it was an actual message 
decrypt tether than a chance result. OTOH if I saw such from a 
Diffie-Hellamn message with a sizeable key it seems, somehow, a more 
credible claim.  But either of those *could be*  freak instances, neither 
system is perfect. After all, it doesn't take a very long message to 
transfer a hundred billion Euros from one account to another. 

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#153297

On 2015-10-23, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Friday, October 23, 2015 at 9:24:22 AM UTC-6, Osmium wrote:
>> In my mind, I guess, I think the Enigma is not very 
>> breakable at all.  To me, the most interesting question is: "Can the Enigma 
>> be broken without cribs"?  My tentative answer is "no", in other words a 
>> workable protocol for usage can be established and the Enigma is virtually 
>> unbreakable. Today.
>
> For a few short messages sent with a given set of rotor wirings, and if the 
> starting position of the rotors is treated as part of the key - taken from a 
> one-time keybook for every message - it might well be unbreakable today.
>
> That wouldn't make it a useful cipher for practical purposes today - in any 
> real-world usage scenario, it would be quite breakable indeed.
>
> John Savard

There was a thing that certain messages would start with "Heil Hitler",
which was a good start.



-- 
greymaus
 .
  .
...

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#153256

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, Osmium wrote:

>
> "78lp" wrote:
>
>> "Greymaus" <mausg@mail.com> wrote in message 
>> news:slrnn2hltd.3tf.mausg@dmaus.org...
>>> On 2015-10-21, Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> wrote:
>>>> David Griffith wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I've been toying with the idea of making a replica of the Enigma
>>>>> encrypter using as much mechanical components as possible.  The most
>>>>> complicated parts appear to making and wiring the rotors.  I suppose the
>>>>> rotors could be turned by a solenoid instead of levers from the keys.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So, the rotors.  How feasable is it to make an Enigma rotor from
>>>>> multi-layer PCB?
>>>>> 
>>>> You ought to take a look at the work done by Tatjana van Vark in the
>>>> Netherlands.  She built a crypto machine similar to an Enigma.
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.tatjavanvark.nl/tvv1/pht10.html
>>>> 
>>>> She also has done some AMAZING other stuff, has a working Litton inertial
>>>> measuring unit, the complete electronics suite from a Vulcan bomber is in
>>>> her dining room.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The Question: Why was the whole Enigma project kept secret so long
>> 
>> Basically because they wanted to continue to read the traffic that
>> others were doing after the war had ended, during the cold war.
>> 
>> If it had been clear what they could read, more secure communication
>> would have been used so they couldn’t read it.
>> 
>>> AFAIK, the reason was that Enigmas were produced after the war by a
>>> Swiss company, and used bysecond level countries for what they thouht was 
>>> secure
>>> communic
>> 
>> Not just the physical machine, the technique used to break
>> is also applicable to what is used to secure communication.
>
> I have probably read as much as anyone on Enigma.  And I *still* don't know 
> just how breakable it is. There are a lot of people spouting off who 
> shouldn't be, and I have difficulty separating what those people said from 
> the trustworthy people.  In my mind, I guess, I think the Enigma is not very 
> breakable at all.  To me, the most interesting question is: "Can the Enigma 
> be broken without cribs"?  My tentative answer is "no", in other words a 
> workable protocol for usage can be established and the Enigma is virtually 
> unbreakable. Today.
>
> BTW, my fantasy protocol includes the rule: There must be at least three 
> misspellings in the clear text given to the crypto guy. 
>
I've read some, and the impression I got was that having the machine, from 
the Poles, didn't in itself solve the problem.  They really did rely on 
blunder, the sequence not changed the way it should have been, and 
information sent in the clear that helped to value the information 
encoded, and a lot of brute strength repetitive attempts.

It's not that different from today, when we read about the "evil hackers" 
and then it turns out not technical skill but social skill or blunder has 
gotten them secret information.

If they knew something might be important, from where it was coming from, 
they would allocate resources to figure it out.  And they were lucky that 
the users of enigma got sloppy, just like people today use easy to 
remember passwords.

   Michael

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#153268

Michael Black wrote:


>>
> I've read some, and the impression I got was that having the machine, from
> the Poles, didn't in itself solve the problem.  They really did rely on
> blunder, the sequence not changed the way it should have been, and
> information sent in the clear that helped to value the information
> encoded, and a lot of brute strength repetitive attempts.
> 
Without knowing the wiring of the rotors, you are REALLY in the dark, and it 
would take a HUGE number of messages to get any entry into the cipher.

The Germans DID change out the rotors on all Enigmas in, I think, 1940, and 
Bletchley Park took 21 months to figure it out.  Then, the Germans went to a 
4-rotor enigma in 1942.

There were some VERY revealing blunders, like a guy who sent a message where 
the cleartext was all letter "L".  Due to the way Enigma works, the 
ciphertext would have ZERO letter L's in it, a dead giveaway to 
cryptanalysts working on it.

Also, if two different messages were sent with the same key, that could 
reveal some info about the key.

Jon

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#153269

In <TpWdnfeJpulPCbfLnZ2dnUU7-S2dnZ2d@giganews.com> Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> writes:

>Michael Black wrote:

>Also, if two different messages were sent with the same key, that could 
>reveal some info about the key.

and, natch, if the memos would always end
with the phrase "Heil Hitler!" that would
give you (the decrypter) a head start..

-- 
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
		     dannyb@panix.com 
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

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#153272

"danny burstein" wrote:


>>Michael Black wrote:
>
>>Also, if two different messages were sent with the same key, that could
>>reveal some info about the key.
>
> and, natch, if the memos would always end
> with the phrase "Heil Hitler!" that would
> give you (the decrypter) a head start..

There was some bozo in Africa who kept ending "nothing to report".

I think there is a message here: do not give sharp tools to someone with no 
training. 

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#153274

"Osmium" wrote:

> "danny burstein" wrote:
>
>
>>>Michael Black wrote:
>>
>>>Also, if two different messages were sent with the same key, that could
>>>reveal some info about the key.
>>
>> and, natch, if the memos would always end
>> with the phrase "Heil Hitler!" that would
>> give you (the decrypter) a head start..
>
> There was some bozo in Africa who kept ending "nothing to report".
>
> I think there is a message here: do not give sharp tools to someone with 
> no training.

Sending, not ending. 

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#153307

On 23/10/2015 21:25, danny burstein wrote:
> In <TpWdnfeJpulPCbfLnZ2dnUU7-S2dnZ2d@giganews.com> Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> writes:
>
>> Michael Black wrote:
>
>> Also, if two different messages were sent with the same key, that could
>> reveal some info about the key.
>
> and, natch, if the memos would always end
> with the phrase "Heil Hitler!" that would
> give you (the decrypter) a head start..
>
I seem to remember that one station in the dessert always sent the same 
message, something like "sunny, nothing has happened". Then one day the 
message changed and the Code Breakers spent a lot of time decoding it 
only to find it read..

"A Camel Walked Past, Still Sunny"

but generally German blind ahdherence to procedures made the code easier 
to crack..

Dave

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#154700

In article <n0e537$37l$1@reader1.panix.com>,
 danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> wrote:

> In <TpWdnfeJpulPCbfLnZ2dnUU7-S2dnZ2d@giganews.com> Jon Elson 
> <elson@pico-systems.com> writes:
> 
> >Michael Black wrote:
> 
> >Also, if two different messages were sent with the same key, that could 
> >reveal some info about the key.
> 
> and, natch, if the memos would always end
> with the phrase "Heil Hitler!" that would
> give you (the decrypter) a head start..

Wouldn't that be a tail start?

-- 
Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greed. Me.

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#154702

Walter Bushell wrote:

> In article <n0e537$37l$1@reader1.panix.com>,
>  danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> wrote:
> 
>> In <TpWdnfeJpulPCbfLnZ2dnUU7-S2dnZ2d@giganews.com> Jon Elson
>> <elson@pico-systems.com> writes:
>> 
>> >Michael Black wrote:
>> 
>> >Also, if two different messages were sent with the same key, that could
>> >reveal some info about the key.
>> 
>> and, natch, if the memos would always end
>> with the phrase "Heil Hitler!" that would
>> give you (the decrypter) a head start..
> 
> Wouldn't that be a tail start?
> 
Yup, and the bombes were actually built so they could work back from the end 
of the messages, not just forwards from the beginning, as they knew a number 
of the cribs would occur at the closing of the messages!

Jon

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#153279

On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:36:43 -0400, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca>
wrote:

[snip]

>I've read some, and the impression I got was that having the machine, from 
>the Poles, didn't in itself solve the problem.  They really did rely on 
>blunder, the sequence not changed the way it should have been, and 
>information sent in the clear that helped to value the information 
>encoded, and a lot of brute strength repetitive attempts.

     As I understand it, the Nazis started each message about the same
way, and that gave an in.  (Whom it was addressed to, etc.)

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#153283

On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:14:12 -0700, Gene Wirchenko wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:36:43 -0400, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca>
> wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
>>I've read some, and the impression I got was that having the machine,
>>from the Poles, didn't in itself solve the problem.  They really did
>>rely on blunder, the sequence not changed the way it should have been,
>>and information sent in the clear that helped to value the information
>>encoded, and a lot of brute strength repetitive attempts.
> 
>      As I understand it, the Nazis started each message about the same
> way, and that gave an in.  (Whom it was addressed to, etc.)

They started with the rotor settings (twice) and that weakened it 
considerably. Then, as you say, certain users always used the same format 
for messages (e.g. weather reports).

It was also known for the British to send the RAF out to depth charge 
somewhere (Bay of Biscay comes to mind) to trigger a known-form message 
if other traffic was absent.


-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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#153310

In article <d8vphqFeq5aU18@mid.individual.net>,
Bob Eager  <news0005@eager.cx> wrote:
>On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:14:12 -0700, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:36:43 -0400, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> [snip]
>> 
>>>I've read some, and the impression I got was that having the machine,
>>>from the Poles, didn't in itself solve the problem.  They really did
>>>rely on blunder, the sequence not changed the way it should have been,
>>>and information sent in the clear that helped to value the information
>>>encoded, and a lot of brute strength repetitive attempts.
>> 
>>      As I understand it, the Nazis started each message about the same
>> way, and that gave an in.  (Whom it was addressed to, etc.)
>
>They started with the rotor settings (twice) and that weakened it 
>considerably. Then, as you say, certain users always used the same format 
>for messages (e.g. weather reports).
>
>It was also known for the British to send the RAF out to depth charge 
>somewhere (Bay of Biscay comes to mind) to trigger a known-form message 
>if other traffic was absent.

There were also incidents of large propaganda rants which were
sent in both clear and encrypted. 

These were identifiable because of the length, and gave a long 
clear text to the codebreakers.

-- mrr

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#153286

On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:14:12 -0700, Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net>
wrote:
>On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:36:43 -0400, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca>
>wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>I've read some, and the impression I got was that having the machine, from 
>>the Poles, didn't in itself solve the problem.  They really did rely on 
>>blunder, the sequence not changed the way it should have been, and 
>>information sent in the clear that helped to value the information 
>>encoded, and a lot of brute strength repetitive attempts.
>
>     As I understand it, the Nazis started each message about the same
>way, and that gave an in.  (Whom it was addressed to, etc.)
>
>[snip]
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Gene Wirchenko

That matches what I've seen in several documentaries on WW2 and
Enigma.
-- 
JimP.

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