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all those packages still need to be delivered somehow

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  all those packages still need to be delivered somehow jgk@panix.com (Joe keane) - 2015-09-09 19:02 +0000
    Re: all those packages still need to be delivered somehow Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-09-10 18:11 +0000
      Re: all those packages still need to be delivered somehow jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-09-11 12:48 +0000
        Re: all those packages still need to be delivered somehow Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-09-11 09:34 -0500
          Re: all those packages still need to be delivered somehow jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-09-12 13:24 +0000
            Re: all those packages still need to be delivered somehow Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-09-12 11:17 -0400
              Re: all those packages still need to be delivered somehow "Jim Thomas" <JT@nospam.com> - 2015-09-13 04:35 +1000
                Re: all those packages still need to be delivered somehow "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-09-12 13:50 -0500
                  Re: all those packages still need to be delivered somehow "Jim Thomas" <JT@nospam.com> - 2015-09-13 06:47 +1000
                    Re: all those packages still need to be delivered somehow jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-09-13 13:43 +0000
                      Re: all those packages still need to be delivered somehow "Jim Thomas" <JT@nospam.com> - 2015-09-14 04:22 +1000
                        Re: all those packages still need to be delivered somehow jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-09-14 12:50 +0000
                          Re: all those packages still need to be delivered somehow "Jim Thomas" <JT@nospam.com> - 2015-09-15 04:37 +1000
                            Re: all those packages still need to be delivered somehow Greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2015-09-14 19:13 +0000
                              Re: all those packages still need to be delivered somehow "Jim Thomas" <JT@nospam.com> - 2015-09-15 09:10 +1000
                    Re: all those packages still need to be delivered somehow Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-09-13 22:45 +0200
                  Re: all those packages still need to be delivered somehow Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-09-12 16:59 -0500
            Re: all those packages still need to be delivered somehow scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-09-14 13:32 +0000
              Re: all those packages still need to be delivered somehow "Jim Thomas" <JT@nospam.com> - 2015-09-15 04:46 +1000
                Re: all those packages still need to be delivered somehow scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-09-14 19:55 +0000
                  Re: all those packages still need to be delivered somehow Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-09-14 18:12 -0500
                  Re: all those packages still need to be delivered somehow "Jim Thomas" <JT@nospam.com> - 2015-09-15 09:16 +1000
              Re: all those packages still need to be delivered somehow jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-09-15 13:07 +0000
                Re: all those packages still need to be delivered somehow mrr@sambook.reistad.name (Morten Reistad) - 2015-09-15 16:15 +0200

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#151200 — all those packages still need to be delivered somehow

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#151236

On 2015-09-09, Joe keane <jgk@panix.com> wrote:

>

Oops, there's another package that didn't make it.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

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#151252

Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2015-09-09, Joe keane <jgk@panix.com> wrote:
>
>>
>
> Oops, there's another package that didn't make it.
>
Yup.  What's really odd is that my newsreader reported
the existence of n lines in the post.

/BAH

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#151254

On 9/11/2015 7:48 AM, jmfbahciv wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2015-09-09, Joe keane <jgk@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>> Oops, there's another package that didn't make it.
>>
> Yup.  What's really odd is that my newsreader reported
> the existence of n lines in the post.
> 
> /BAH
> 
Odd. Unless n=1, which is what mine showed.

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#151282

Dave Garland wrote:
> On 9/11/2015 7:48 AM, jmfbahciv wrote:
>> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>> On 2015-09-09, Joe keane <jgk@panix.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Oops, there's another package that didn't make it.
>>>
>> Yup.  What's really odd is that my newsreader reported
>> the existence of n lines in the post.
>>
>> /BAH
>>
> Odd. Unless n=1, which is what mine showed.

It was more than one; it was a double-digit number.  I don't
have the exact number.  All posts from Google will show 1.
I think the count I see are the numbmer of <CRLF>s in the post.
Hancock's has always been one because he doesn't type
<RETURN>; I always type it becuase that's how I was taught and
that's how DEC code and documents were entered.

/BAH

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#151283

On Sat, 12 Sep 2015, jmfbahciv wrote:

> Dave Garland wrote:
>> On 9/11/2015 7:48 AM, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>> On 2015-09-09, Joe keane <jgk@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oops, there's another package that didn't make it.
>>>>
>>> Yup.  What's really odd is that my newsreader reported
>>> the existence of n lines in the post.
>>>
>>> /BAH
>>>
>> Odd. Unless n=1, which is what mine showed.
>
> It was more than one; it was a double-digit number.  I don't
> have the exact number.  All posts from Google will show 1.
> I think the count I see are the numbmer of <CRLF>s in the post.
> Hancock's has always been one because he doesn't type
> <RETURN>; I always type it becuase that's how I was taught and
> that's how DEC code and documents were entered.
>
My newsreader gives me an estimate of the size of a message.

But I've seen that change, once I actually read the message, the number 
changes to match the actual size of the message.

   Michael

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#151287

"Michael Black" <et472@ncf.ca> wrote in message 
news:alpine.LNX.2.02.1509121117030.14090@darkstar.example.org...
> On Sat, 12 Sep 2015, jmfbahciv wrote:
>
>> Dave Garland wrote:
>>> On 9/11/2015 7:48 AM, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>> On 2015-09-09, Joe keane <jgk@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Oops, there's another package that didn't make it.
>>>>>
>>>> Yup.  What's really odd is that my newsreader reported
>>>> the existence of n lines in the post.
>>>>
>>>> /BAH
>>>>
>>> Odd. Unless n=1, which is what mine showed.

That's pretty fucked given that its specified in the header.

>> It was more than one; it was a double-digit number.  I don't
>> have the exact number.  All posts from Google will show 1.

That is fucked, because its specified in the header.

>> I think the count I see are the numbmer of <CRLF>s in the post.

Likely.

>> Hancock's has always been one because he doesn't type
>> <RETURN>; I always type it becuase that's how I was taught and that's how 
>> DEC code and documents were entered.

> My newsreader gives me an estimate of the size of a message.

Mine does both, gives the size in K and the number of lines.

And gets the number lines right with groups.google posts too.

> But I've seen that change, once I actually read the message, the number 
> changes to match the actual size of the message.

Not surprising if it initially has just the header and can't
work out the actual size until it has downloaded it when
reading online. 

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#151288

"Jim Thomas" wrote:

> "Michael Black" <et472@ncf.ca> wrote in message

>> But I've seen that change, once I actually read the message, the number 
>> changes to match the actual size of the message.
>
> Not surprising if it initially has just the header and can't
> work out the actual size until it has downloaded it when
> reading online.

Is that common? All this fuss about retention is simply retention of the 
*header*?  ISTM that implies that the first site that processes  a message 
(or someone) is expected to retain it forever. Could you elaborate on this? 

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#151293

"Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote in message 
news:d5jagfF8i21U1@mid.individual.net...
> "Jim Thomas" wrote:
>
>> "Michael Black" <et472@ncf.ca> wrote in message
>
>>> But I've seen that change, once I actually read the message, the number 
>>> changes to match the actual size of the message.
>>
>> Not surprising if it initially has just the header and can't
>> work out the actual size until it has downloaded it when
>> reading online.

> Is that common?

Is what common ?  Reading online ?  Plenty clearly do that.

It's obvious that some like Morten and Barb don't, their posts
clearly show up in bursts which shows that they are replying
offline but that isn't true of most of the rest of the posters.

> All this fuss about retention is simply retention of the *header*?

That is a separate matter entirely unless I have misunderstood you.

> ISTM that implies that the first site that processes  a message (or 
> someone) is expected to retain it forever.

Not sure what you mean there.

> Could you elaborate on this?

It's not clear to me what you want elaborated.

I was just commenting on what the usenet client
shows number lines wise and size of message
wise.  I wasn't commenting on anything else. 

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#151304

Jim Thomas wrote:
>
>
> "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:d5jagfF8i21U1@mid.individual.net...
>> "Jim Thomas" wrote:
>>
>>> "Michael Black" <et472@ncf.ca> wrote in message
>>
>>>> But I've seen that change, once I actually read the message, the number
>>>> changes to match the actual size of the message.
>>>
>>> Not surprising if it initially has just the header and can't
>>> work out the actual size until it has downloaded it when
>>> reading online.
>
>> Is that common?
>
> Is what common ?  Reading online ?  Plenty clearly do that.
>
> It's obvious that some like Morten and Barb don't, their posts
> clearly show up in bursts which shows that they are replying
> offline but that isn't true of most of the rest of the posters.

You keep saying this but you are wrong.  I never work on newsgroups
off-line.

/BAH

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#151309

"jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message 
news:PM00051FA1484E09DC@aca2ddd4.ipt.aol.com...
> Jim Thomas wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:d5jagfF8i21U1@mid.individual.net...
>>> "Jim Thomas" wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Michael Black" <et472@ncf.ca> wrote in message
>>>
>>>>> But I've seen that change, once I actually read the message, the 
>>>>> number
>>>>> changes to match the actual size of the message.
>>>>
>>>> Not surprising if it initially has just the header and can't
>>>> work out the actual size until it has downloaded it when
>>>> reading online.
>>
>>> Is that common?
>>
>> Is what common ?  Reading online ?  Plenty clearly do that.
>>
>> It's obvious that some like Morten and Barb don't, their posts
>> clearly show up in bursts which shows that they are replying
>> offline but that isn't true of most of the rest of the posters.
>
> You keep saying this but you are wrong.
> I never work on newsgroups off-line.

You do in the sense that your posts show up in a burst.

Morten's do too and since his retain the timestamp of
when he hit the Send, can be a bit of a nuisance when
you read sorted by date, because some from him can
pop up well down the list below ones you have already
read. Yours don’t. 

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#151328

Jim Thomas wrote:
>
>
> "jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:PM00051FA1484E09DC@aca2ddd4.ipt.aol.com...
>> Jim Thomas wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:d5jagfF8i21U1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> "Jim Thomas" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Michael Black" <et472@ncf.ca> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>>> But I've seen that change, once I actually read the message, the
>>>>>> number
>>>>>> changes to match the actual size of the message.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not surprising if it initially has just the header and can't
>>>>> work out the actual size until it has downloaded it when
>>>>> reading online.
>>>
>>>> Is that common?
>>>
>>> Is what common ?  Reading online ?  Plenty clearly do that.
>>>
>>> It's obvious that some like Morten and Barb don't, their posts
>>> clearly show up in bursts which shows that they are replying
>>> offline but that isn't true of most of the rest of the posters.
>>
>> You keep saying this but you are wrong.
>> I never work on newsgroups off-line.
>
> You do in the sense that your posts show up in a burst.
>
> Morten's do too and since his retain the timestamp of
> when he hit the Send, can be a bit of a nuisance when
> you read sorted by date, because some from him can
> pop up well down the list below ones you have already
> read. Yours don’t.

Oh, I see.  I use Pineapple which stores my replies until I transfer
them.  I download each news item one at a time and reply, or don't,
as soon as I read it.  AFter I'm done with each newsgroup, I do
transfer the replies for each newsgroup at the same time.

/BAH

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#151344

"jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message 
news:PM00051FB4B88BDDC8@aca41b29.ipt.aol.com...
> Jim Thomas wrote:
>>
>>
>> "jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:PM00051FA1484E09DC@aca2ddd4.ipt.aol.com...
>>> Jim Thomas wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:d5jagfF8i21U1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>> "Jim Thomas" wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Michael Black" <et472@ncf.ca> wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I've seen that change, once I actually read the message, the
>>>>>>> number
>>>>>>> changes to match the actual size of the message.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not surprising if it initially has just the header and can't
>>>>>> work out the actual size until it has downloaded it when
>>>>>> reading online.
>>>>
>>>>> Is that common?
>>>>
>>>> Is what common ?  Reading online ?  Plenty clearly do that.
>>>>
>>>> It's obvious that some like Morten and Barb don't, their posts
>>>> clearly show up in bursts which shows that they are replying
>>>> offline but that isn't true of most of the rest of the posters.
>>>
>>> You keep saying this but you are wrong.
>>> I never work on newsgroups off-line.
>>
>> You do in the sense that your posts show up in a burst.
>>
>> Morten's do too and since his retain the timestamp of
>> when he hit the Send, can be a bit of a nuisance when
>> you read sorted by date, because some from him can
>> pop up well down the list below ones you have already
>> read. Yours don’t.
>
> Oh, I see.  I use Pineapple which stores my replies until I transfer
> them.  I download each news item one at a time and reply, or don't,
> as soon as I read it.  AFter I'm done with each newsgroup, I do
> transfer the replies for each newsgroup at the same time.

Yeah, that's what I meant, while technically its not doing
it offline in the sense that you stay online while you read
and reply to posts, its reading offline in the sense that
you don’t actually read and reply to each post with the
posts coming down one by one and the reply being
sent back after you hit Send with each reply, all the
replies are uploaded in a batch when you leave the
newsgroup.

Most who do usenet now do it by seeing the list of
headers, clicking on the ones that interest them, see
the client download the body of the posts, read that,
reply if you want to reply and have the reply posted
when you hit the Send button etc.

Some like Hancock don’t even do that, they
use groups.google and do it all online. 

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#151349

On 2015-09-14, Jim Thomas <JT@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
> "jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message 
> news:PM00051FB4B88BDDC8@aca41b29.ipt.aol.com...
>> Jim Thomas wrote:
>
> Yeah, that's what I meant, while technically its not doing
> it offline in the sense that you stay online while you read
> and reply to posts, its reading offline in the sense that
> you don’t actually read and reply to each post with the
> posts coming down one by one and the reply being
> sent back after you hit Send with each reply, all the
> replies are uploaded in a batch when you leave the
> newsgroup.
>
> Most who do usenet now do it by seeing the list of
> headers, clicking on the ones that interest them, see
> the client download the body of the posts, read that,
> reply if you want to reply and have the reply posted
> when you hit the Send button etc.
>
> Some like Hancock don’t even do that, they
> use groups.google and do it all online. 
>
I do all online now, its just as fast as slrnpull.


-- 
greymaus
 .
  .
...

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#151356

"Greymaus" <mausg@mail.com> wrote in message 
news:slrnmveabi.317.mausg@dmaus.org...
> On 2015-09-14, Jim Thomas <JT@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> "jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:PM00051FB4B88BDDC8@aca41b29.ipt.aol.com...
>>> Jim Thomas wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, that's what I meant, while technically its not doing
>> it offline in the sense that you stay online while you read
>> and reply to posts, its reading offline in the sense that
>> you don’t actually read and reply to each post with the
>> posts coming down one by one and the reply being
>> sent back after you hit Send with each reply, all the
>> replies are uploaded in a batch when you leave the
>> newsgroup.
>>
>> Most who do usenet now do it by seeing the list of
>> headers, clicking on the ones that interest them, see
>> the client download the body of the posts, read that,
>> reply if you want to reply and have the reply posted
>> when you hit the Send button etc.
>>
>> Some like Hancock don’t even do that, they
>> use groups.google and do it all online.
>>
> I do all online now,

I do too, ever since I got a decent broadband service.

But I don’t use public transport very often
at all, so I don’t need to do it on that.

> its just as fast as slrnpull.

Speed isn't really a major consideration for me.

I would like to do some stuff offline, particularly
when waiting around for something to happen
when away from home, but I do that entirely on
the mobile/cellphone and I can't be bothered to
add a decent keyboard to that and it wouldn’t
be in synch with what I do most of the usenet
on so I don’t bother. 

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#151312

In article <d5jhavFa8joU1@mid.individual.net>,
Jim Thomas <JT@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
>"Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote in message 
>news:d5jagfF8i21U1@mid.individual.net...
>> "Jim Thomas" wrote:
>>
>>> "Michael Black" <et472@ncf.ca> wrote in message
>>
>>>> But I've seen that change, once I actually read the message, the number 
>>>> changes to match the actual size of the message.
>>>
>>> Not surprising if it initially has just the header and can't
>>> work out the actual size until it has downloaded it when
>>> reading online.
>
>> Is that common?
>
>Is what common ?  Reading online ?  Plenty clearly do that.
>
>It's obvious that some like Morten and Barb don't, their posts
>clearly show up in bursts which shows that they are replying
>offline but that isn't true of most of the rest of the posters.

I read news the way $DEITY intended, offline. 
Probably in some place with rotten or non-existant connectivity,
like a plane, commuter train, or out in the wilderness. I do run batch updates
when I reach somewhere connected. Which may go days between updates, 
even in very well connected Scandinavia.

>> All this fuss about retention is simply retention of the *header*?
>
>That is a separate matter entirely unless I have misunderstood you.
>
>> ISTM that implies that the first site that processes  a message (or 
>> someone) is expected to retain it forever.
>
>Not sure what you mean there.

Bried recap of news handling.

There are two basic protocols, NNTP and NNRP. (Network News Transfer
Protocol and NN Reader Protocol).

When you read and post news online you usually use NNRP, where a server
supplies message-id lists, headers or entire messages to the reader.
When you ask for a newsgroup summary the protocol sends the headers from
some reference number (usually a monotonously increasing integer) to the
end of messages, or to some predefined count. You then peruse the messages, 
and get to download the actual message.

NNTP is for server-to-server communications, and is based on flooding
of messages, where every server keeps an online link to all neighbours
(a tcp session) where the server says "IHAVE <message-id>" when it has
a new message. The other server then checks if it has that message, and
may ask "HEAD <message-id>" or "READ <message-id>" (from vague memory, 
someone more intimate with the protocols may correct this) to read it,
or to check if it fits with the newsgroups it is configured to carry.

The NNTP setup requires all servers to more or less have 100% uptime and
is a pure transmission vehicle. Retention does not have to be more than
the max retransmission interval. NNRP on the other hand requires quite
substantial retention.

>> Could you elaborate on this?
>
>It's not clear to me what you want elaborated.
>
>I was just commenting on what the usenet client
>shows number lines wise and size of message
>wise.  I wasn't commenting on anything else. 

There is a header element, "Lines: n" which contain a count of the lines
in the posting. This is supposed to be the count of header and all content.

-- mrr

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#151295

On 9/12/2015 1:50 PM, Osmium wrote:
> "Jim Thomas" wrote:
> 
>> "Michael Black" <et472@ncf.ca> wrote in message
> 
>>> But I've seen that change, once I actually read the message, the
>>> number changes to match the actual size of the message.
>>
>> Not surprising if it initially has just the header and can't
>> work out the actual size until it has downloaded it when
>> reading online.
> 
> Is that common? All this fuss about retention is simply retention of
> the *header*?  ISTM that implies that the first site that processes  a
> message (or someone) is expected to retain it forever. Could you
> elaborate on this?

My understanding of the term "retention" re a news server is that the
header+body are retained. WRT expiring posts from my reader, retention
would mean header (and body if present), but that does not imply the
news server has (or does not have) the body. I dunno what retention
eternal-september (which I use for text groups) has, but blocknews
(which I use for binaries) retains both header and body for a year or
more.

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#151331

jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>Dave Garland wrote:
>> On 9/11/2015 7:48 AM, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>> On 2015-09-09, Joe keane <jgk@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oops, there's another package that didn't make it.
>>>>
>>> Yup.  What's really odd is that my newsreader reported
>>> the existence of n lines in the post.
>>>
>>> /BAH
>>>
>> Odd. Unless n=1, which is what mine showed.
>
>It was more than one; it was a double-digit number.  I don't
>have the exact number.  All posts from Google will show 1.

Google posts do not include a "Lines:" header, so they show
no value for the number of lines in classic news clients.

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#151346

"Scott Lurndal" <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote in message 
news:40AJx.79305$lq4.21991@fx10.iad...
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>>Dave Garland wrote:
>>> On 9/11/2015 7:48 AM, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>> On 2015-09-09, Joe keane <jgk@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Oops, there's another package that didn't make it.
>>>>>
>>>> Yup.  What's really odd is that my newsreader reported
>>>> the existence of n lines in the post.
>>>>
>>>> /BAH
>>>>
>>> Odd. Unless n=1, which is what mine showed.
>>
>>It was more than one; it was a double-digit number.  I don't
>>have the exact number.  All posts from Google will show 1.
>
> Google posts do not include a "Lines:" header,

They do actually.

> so they show no value for the number of lines in classic news clients. 

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#151352

"Jim Thomas" <JT@nospam.com> writes:
>
>
>"Scott Lurndal" <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote in message 
>news:40AJx.79305$lq4.21991@fx10.iad...
>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>>>Dave Garland wrote:
>>>> On 9/11/2015 7:48 AM, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>>> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>>> On 2015-09-09, Joe keane <jgk@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oops, there's another package that didn't make it.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Yup.  What's really odd is that my newsreader reported
>>>>> the existence of n lines in the post.
>>>>>
>>>>> /BAH
>>>>>
>>>> Odd. Unless n=1, which is what mine showed.
>>>
>>>It was more than one; it was a double-digit number.  I don't
>>>have the exact number.  All posts from Google will show 1.
>>
>> Google posts do not include a "Lines:" header,
>
>They do actually.

No, Rod, they don't.

e.g. <947d9675-c7ff-42d8-881e-25c5682f4ac1@googlegroups.com>

(Jim Thomas is another speedy sockpuppet)

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