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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #160026 > unrolled thread

Re: Qbasic

Started byAndrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com>
First post2016-02-21 09:13 +0000
Last post2016-02-27 10:17 -0800
Articles 20 on this page of 778 — 45 participants

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Contents

  Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-02-21 09:13 +0000
    Re: Qbasic "hgww" <hgww@gmail.com> - 2016-02-22 03:23 +1100
      Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-02-21 17:38 +0000
        Re: Qbasic Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-02-21 17:59 +0000
        Re: Qbasic "hgww" <hgww@gmail.com> - 2016-02-22 07:41 +1100
          Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-02-22 01:21 +0000
            Re: Qbasic "hgww" <hgww@gmail.com> - 2016-02-22 14:00 +1100
            Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-22 15:48 -0600
              Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-02-22 16:43 -0600
                Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-22 20:49 -0600
    Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-24 18:15 -0600
      Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-24 17:59 -0700
        Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-24 19:30 -0600
          Re: Qbasic JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-02-25 18:20 -0600
        Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-24 17:58 -0800
          Re: Qbasic "hgww" <hgww@gmail.com> - 2016-02-25 14:38 +1100
          Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-25 05:25 -0500
            Re: Qbasic Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-02-25 10:22 -0500
            Re: Qbasic "hgww" <hgww@gmail.com> - 2016-02-26 04:31 +1100
            Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-25 15:53 -0800
              Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-25 21:41 -0500
                Re: Qbasic "hgww" <hgww@gmail.com> - 2016-02-26 14:55 +1100
                Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-25 20:18 -0800
                  Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-26 05:23 -0500
                    Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-02-26 12:15 +0100
                      Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-27 10:24 -0800
                    Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-27 10:14 -0800
                Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-02-25 23:34 -0600
                  Re: Qbasic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-02-26 05:38 -0500
                    Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-02-26 15:46 +0000
                    Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-02-26 10:14 -0600
                      Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-26 11:20 -0700
                        Re: Qbasic Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-02-26 14:15 -0500
                          Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-02-26 14:23 -0600
                            Re: Qbasic Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-02-26 15:50 -0500
                              Re: Qbasic JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 10:46 -0600
                                Re: Qbasic Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-02-28 14:40 -0500
                          Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-29 18:25 -0600
                            Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-29 16:40 -0800
                            Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-01 06:47 -0700
                              Re: Qbasic JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 08:32 -0600
                              Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-01 10:39 -0600
                                Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-01 12:23 -0800
                                  Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-01 14:27 -0700
                                    Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-01 15:58 -0800
                                      Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-02 07:22 -0700
                                        Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 04:03 +1100
                                    Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-02 13:52 +0000
                                  Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-02 13:56 -0600
                    Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-26 12:51 -0600
                      Re: Qbasic sidd@situ.com (sidd) - 2016-02-26 23:12 -0500
                        Re: Qbasic Ibmekon <Ibmekon> - 2016-02-27 09:17 +0000
                          Re: Qbasic sidd@situ.com (sidd) - 2016-02-27 14:37 -0500
                            Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-02-27 17:08 -0800
                            Re: Qbasic Ibmekon <Ibmekon> - 2016-02-28 09:57 +0000
                              Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-02-28 15:56 +0100
                                Re: Qbasic Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-02-28 19:00 -0800
                                Re: Qbasic Ibmekon <Ibmekon> - 2016-02-29 22:14 +0000
                            Re: Qbasic Ibmekon <Ibmekon> - 2016-03-01 22:26 +0000
                              Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-02 12:26 +0000
                                Re: Qbasic Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-03-02 13:46 +0000
                                  Re: Qbasic Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-03-02 21:09 +0000
                                    Re: Qbasic Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-03-03 05:33 +0000
                                Re: Qbasic Ibmekon <Ibmekon> - 2016-03-02 19:28 +0000
                                  Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-02 15:45 -0800
                                  Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-02 16:27 -0800
                                    Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-03 01:02 -0800
                                    Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-16 17:59 -0700
                                      Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-17 10:42 -0700
                          Re: Qbasic Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-02-27 19:43 +0000
                    Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-27 10:21 -0800
                      Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-02-27 20:19 +0100
                  Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-02-26 08:27 -0600
                    Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-27 10:25 -0800
                Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-29 09:30 -0600
            Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-27 15:00 -0600
              Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-27 13:52 -0800
              Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-27 17:16 -0600
              Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-02-27 18:22 -0600
                Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-27 17:12 -0800
                  Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-27 20:23 -0600
                    Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-28 05:43 -0800
                      Re: Qbasic "Alexis" <ggyy@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 03:34 +1100
                        Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-28 08:41 -0800
                          Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-28 11:16 -0600
                          Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-02-28 14:57 -0600
                            Re: Qbasic "Alexis" <ggyy@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 09:55 +1100
                              Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-02-29 09:25 +0000
                                Re: Qbasic Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-02-29 09:46 +0000
                                  Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-29 09:22 -0600
                                    Re: Qbasic Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-02-29 16:17 +0000
                                    Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-03-01 09:58 +0000
                                      Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 01:17 +1100
                                        Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-03-03 08:59 +0000
                                          Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 20:25 +1100
                                  Re: Qbasic "Alexis" <ggyy@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 04:38 +1100
                                    Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-03-01 10:14 +0000
                                      Re: Qbasic "Alexis" <ggyy@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 01:20 +1100
                                        Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-03-03 09:01 +0000
                                          Re: Qbasic "Alexis" <ggyy@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 20:35 +1100
                                Re: Qbasic "Alexis" <ggyy@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 04:35 +1100
                                Re: Qbasic Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2016-03-07 18:19 -0500
                                  Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-03-08 00:48 +0000
                          Re: Qbasic "Alexis" <ggyy@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 09:49 +1100
                            Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-02-29 16:12 +0000
                              Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-02-29 10:46 -0600
                              Re: Qbasic JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 12:49 -0600
                                Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-29 11:03 -0800
                                Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-02-29 14:51 -0600
                                  Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-29 15:56 -0600
                                Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-03-01 10:26 +0000
                                  Re: Qbasic JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 08:30 -0600
                                  Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-01 12:28 -0600
                                    Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-03-03 09:10 +0000
                                      Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-03 10:36 +0000
                            Re: Qbasic Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-02-29 17:35 +0000
                      Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-28 18:41 -0600
                Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-27 20:12 -0600
        Re: Qbasic JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-02-25 18:18 -0600
          Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-26 03:28 -0700
            Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-02-26 15:48 +0000
              Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-26 11:20 -0700
                Re: Qbasic Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-02-26 14:09 -0500
                  Re: Qbasic "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-02-27 03:15 -0600
                Re: Qbasic "hgww" <hgww@gmail.com> - 2016-02-27 09:22 +1100
                Re: Qbasic "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-02-27 03:13 -0600
                Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-27 10:28 -0800
                Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-02-28 12:59 +0000
                  Re: Qbasic "Alexis" <ggyy@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 03:32 +1100
                    Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-28 08:40 -0800
                      Re: Qbasic Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-02-28 14:36 -0500
                        Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-28 18:06 -0700
                          Re: Qbasic Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-02-28 20:27 -0500
                        Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-28 20:22 -0800
                          Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 16:38 +1100
                            Re: Qbasic Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-02-29 05:40 +0000
                              Re: Qbasic Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-02-29 06:42 +0000
                                Re: Qbasic Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2016-03-07 18:35 -0500
                                  Re: Qbasic "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-03-08 13:00 +1100
                              Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 18:54 +1100
                              Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-02-29 10:51 +0100
                                Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-02-29 16:05 +0000
                            Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-02-28 22:06 -0800
                              Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 19:01 +1100
                              Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-02-29 08:58 -0800
                                Re: Qbasic "Alexis" <ggyy@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 05:01 +1100
                                Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-29 10:46 -0800
                                  Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-03-01 10:24 +0000
                                    Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-01 10:12 -0800
                                      Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 05:59 +1100
                                Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-02-29 14:59 -0600
                                  Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-29 16:06 -0600
                                Re: Qbasic "Alexis" <ggyy@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 09:12 +1100
                                  Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-03-01 10:37 +0000
                                    Re: Qbasic "Alexis" <ggyy@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 01:24 +1100
                                    Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-01 12:18 -0600
                                      Re: Qbasic "Alexis" <ggyy@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 06:04 +1100
                                      Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-03-03 09:08 +0000
                                        Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-03 11:33 -0600
                                          Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-03 11:46 -0700
                              Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-13 11:25 -0700
                      Re: Qbasic "Alexis" <ggyy@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 09:47 +1100
                    Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-02-28 10:58 -0600
                      Re: Qbasic "Alexis" <ggyy@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 09:51 +1100
                        Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-02-29 16:01 +0000
                    Re: Qbasic Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-02-29 04:17 +0000
                      Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-02-28 20:38 -0800
                        Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 16:44 +1100
                          Re: Qbasic Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-02-29 05:46 +0000
                            Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 18:59 +1100
                        Re: Qbasic Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-02-29 09:56 +0000
                      Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-02-28 22:53 -0600
                        Re: Qbasic Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-02-29 05:35 +0000
                          Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-02-29 06:44 -0600
                            Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-02-29 14:02 +0100
                              Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 04:51 +1100
                                Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-29 11:36 -0700
                                  Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 08:58 +1100
                                  Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-03-01 10:20 +0000
                                    Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-01 06:47 -0700
                                      Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-03-01 10:16 -0800
                                        Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-01 12:28 -0800
                                          Re: Qbasic Alfred Falk <falk@arc.ab.ca> - 2016-03-01 21:03 +0000
                                            Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 10:23 +1100
                                            Re: Qbasic JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 18:02 -0600
                                              Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 11:18 +1100
                                              Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-02 12:19 +0000
                                          Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-01 15:14 -0600
                                            Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 10:24 +1100
                                            Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-01 15:53 -0800
                                          Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 10:13 +1100
                                          Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-03-03 09:15 +0000
                                            Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 20:38 +1100
                                            Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-03-09 12:38 -0800
                                              Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-09 19:15 -0600
                                                Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-03-10 05:06 -0800
                                                  Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-10 09:35 -0600
                                                    Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-03-10 07:42 -0800
                                                  Re: Qbasic "Sam Crean" <sg55443@gmail.com> - 2016-03-11 04:14 +1100
                                              Re: Qbasic "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-03-10 15:52 -0600
                                        Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-02 14:19 +0000
                                          Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-02 07:23 -0700
                                            Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-03 13:39 +0000
                                          Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-03-02 07:29 -0800
                                            Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 04:04 +1100
                                              Re: Qbasic Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-03-02 12:50 -0500
                                                Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 11:55 +1100
                                                  Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-03 13:39 +0000
                                                    Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-04 03:37 +1100
                                              Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-02 19:40 +0000
                                            Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-03 13:39 +0000
                                              Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-04 03:34 +1100
                                              Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-03 11:46 -0700
                                                Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-03 11:47 -0800
                                                  Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-03 22:07 +0000
                                                  Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-03 17:04 -0700
                                                    Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-04 13:16 +1100
                                          Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-02 15:54 +0000
                                          Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 03:44 +1100
                                          Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-02 16:59 +0000
                                          Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-02 15:08 -0600
                                      Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-01 12:19 -0800
                                        Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 10:11 +1100
                                      Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-03-03 08:56 +0000
                                    Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 01:21 +1100
                                      Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-01 10:57 -0600
                                        Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 05:56 +1100
                                      Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-03-03 09:01 +0000
                                        Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 20:37 +1100
                                  Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-01 13:55 +0000
                                    Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 01:28 +1100
                              Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-29 10:41 -0800
                                Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-29 14:16 -0600
                                  Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-29 16:24 -0800
                                    Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-21 14:41 -0500
                                      Re: Qbasic Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-03-21 20:42 +0000
                                        Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-21 13:55 -0700
                                          Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-22 13:16 +1100
                                        Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-21 17:00 -0500
                                          Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-21 17:12 -0700
                                            Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-21 18:44 -0700
                                              Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-21 21:06 -0700
                                                Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-24 23:13 -0700
                                            Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-22 13:25 +1100
                                            Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-21 23:36 -0500
                                            Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-03-22 12:56 +0100
                                              Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-22 13:11 +0000
                                                Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-22 13:33 -0500
                                            Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-22 10:32 -0500
                                              Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-03-22 10:06 -0700
                                                Re: Qbasic Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-03-22 17:38 +0000
                                                Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-22 13:10 -0500
                                                  Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-22 19:41 +0000
                                                Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-23 05:09 +1100
                                            Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-23 17:00 -0700
                                              Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-24 11:09 +1100
                                            Re: Qbasic Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2016-03-25 08:50 -0400
                                              Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-25 10:00 -0700
                                      Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-22 14:34 -0700
                                      Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-24 12:58 -0700
                              Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-29 14:01 -0600
                              Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-02-29 16:07 -0600
                                Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-02-29 16:39 -0600
                                  Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 10:49 +1100
                                Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 10:41 +1100
                      Re: Qbasic Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-02-29 10:26 -0500
                        Re: Qbasic Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-02-29 17:38 +0000
                          Re: Qbasic Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-02-29 12:56 -0500
                            Re: Qbasic Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-02-29 18:01 +0000
                          Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-29 10:53 -0800
                            Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-02-29 19:21 +0000
                              Re: Qbasic Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-02-29 20:19 +0000
                                Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-02-29 20:32 +0000
                                  Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-01 16:18 -0600
                                    Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-02 14:25 -0600
                                      Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-02 16:51 -0600
                                        Re: Qbasic "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 12:17 +1100
                                        Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-10 09:48 -0600
                                          Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-10 13:29 -0600
                                            Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-10 18:27 -0600
                                              Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-10 20:14 -0600
                                                Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-03-11 11:06 +0000
                                                  Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-11 10:09 -0600
                                                    Re: Qbasic Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2016-03-11 11:21 -0500
                                                      Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-03-11 10:28 -0800
                                                        Re: Qbasic Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2016-03-12 16:12 -0500
                                                    Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-03-11 19:42 +0000
                                          Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-10 16:58 -0800
                                      Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-02 17:35 -0700
                                        Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-03 00:51 -0600
                                          Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 18:59 +1100
                                          Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-03 10:48 -0600
                                  Re: Qbasic Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2016-03-16 20:52 -0400
                                    Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-03-16 18:11 -0700
                                      Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-16 20:52 -0500
                                Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-29 16:26 -0800
                                Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-01 13:52 -0600
                                  Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 10:10 +1100
                                  Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-01 15:44 -0800
                      Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-01 13:36 -0600
                        Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-03-01 12:55 -0800
                          Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 10:21 +1100
                          Re: Qbasic Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-03-02 08:01 +0000
                            Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-02 11:57 -0800
                              Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-02 15:13 -0800
                                Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-02 17:32 -0600
                          Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-02 13:36 -0600
                            Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-02 19:44 +0000
                            Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-02 12:14 -0800
                              Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-02 14:43 -0600
                                Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-02 18:06 -0800
                                Re: Qbasic JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 10:44 -0600
                                  Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-03 11:23 -0600
                                    Re: Qbasic JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 15:03 -0600
                                      Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-03 14:04 -0800
                                        Re: Qbasic JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 17:04 -0600
                                          Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-03 16:16 -0800
                                            Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-11 17:02 -0800
                                        Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-03 17:04 -0700
                                          Re: Qbasic JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 19:01 -0600
                                      Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-04 09:47 -0600
                                        Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-04 11:25 -0600
                                          Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-04 12:32 -0600
                                          Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-04 12:34 -0600
                                            Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-04 12:08 -0700
                                              Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-05 16:02 +1100
                                        Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-04 10:54 -0800
                                          Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-04 20:36 +0000
                                            Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-05 15:41 -0600
                                              Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-07 14:12 +0000
                                                Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-07 10:28 -0600
                                                  Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-07 17:34 +0000
                                                    Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-07 14:42 -0600
                                                      Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-07 21:28 +0000
                                                        Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-07 22:37 -0600
                                                          Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-08 09:16 -0600
                                                            Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-08 09:22 -0600
                                                              Re: Qbasic Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2016-03-16 20:45 -0400
                                                            Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-08 17:28 +0000
                                                              Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-08 10:38 -0700
                                                                Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-08 22:11 -0600
                                                    Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-08 09:10 -0600
                                                Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-07 10:38 -0700
                                                  Re: Qbasic Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-03-07 13:07 -0500
                                                    Re: Trump vs. Hillary hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-07 11:27 -0800
                                                      Re: Trump vs. Hillary Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-07 13:35 -0700
                                                        Re: Trump vs. Hillary Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-03-07 16:28 -0500
                                                          Re: Trump vs. Hillary Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-07 14:05 -0800
                                                            Re: Trump vs. Hillary Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-07 14:28 -0800
                                                            Re: Trump vs. Hillary Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-03-07 17:37 -0500
                                                              Re: Trump vs. Hillary hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-07 16:10 -0800
                                                                Re: Trump vs. Hillary Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-07 18:30 -0700
                                                                  Re: Trump vs. Hillary hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-07 18:00 -0800
                                                                  Re: Trump vs. Hillary Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-03-07 22:07 -0500
                                                                    Re: Trump vs. Hillary hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-07 20:06 -0800
                                                                  Re: Trump vs. Hillary Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2016-03-16 20:39 -0400
                                                          Re: Trump vs. Hillary Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-07 18:30 -0700
                                                            Re: Trump vs. Hillary JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-03-07 20:23 -0600
                                                            Re: Trump vs. Hillary Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-03-07 22:17 -0500
                                                              Re: Trump vs. Hillary hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-07 20:15 -0800
                                                                Re: Trump vs. Hillary "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-08 08:13 -0600
                                                                  Re: Trump vs. Hillary Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-08 07:24 -0700
                                                                    Re: Trump vs. Hillary Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-08 08:53 -0600
                                                                  Re: Trump vs. Hillary Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-08 10:58 -0600
                                                                  Re: Trump vs. Hillary hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-08 15:34 -0800
                                                                    Re: Trump vs. Hillary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-09 14:39 +0000
                                                                    Re: Trump vs. Hillary "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-09 10:05 -0600
                                                                      Re: Trump vs. Hillary hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-09 09:41 -0800
                                                                      Re: Trump vs. Hillary "Sam Crean" <sg55443@gmail.com> - 2016-03-10 04:57 +1100
                                                                        Re: Trump vs. Hillary Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-03-09 21:11 +0000
                                                                          Re: Trump vs. Hillary "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-09 15:23 -0600
                                                                            Re: Trump vs. Hillary Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-03-10 17:40 +0000
                                                        Re: Trump vs. Hillary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-07 21:31 +0000
                                                          Re: Trump vs. Hillary Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-07 18:30 -0700
                                                            Re: Trump vs. Hillary Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-03-07 22:25 -0500
                                                  Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-07 18:33 +0000
                                                  Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-07 18:38 +0000
                                                    Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-07 13:35 -0700
                                                      Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-07 21:24 +0000
                                                  Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-07 12:59 -0600
                                                Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-08 08:44 -0600
                                                  Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-08 09:19 -0600
                                          Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-05 15:29 -0600
                                            Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-07 14:21 +0000
                                        Re: Qbasic JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-03-06 15:45 -0600
                                          Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-06 17:52 -0800
                                            Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-07 13:42 +1100
                                            Re: Qbasic JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-03-07 10:11 -0600
                                          Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-07 13:04 -0600
                                            Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-07 13:35 -0700
                                              Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-08 10:31 +1100
                                  Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-03 19:28 -0600
                                    Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-04 13:19 +1100
                                Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-03 11:04 -0600
                              Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-02 17:35 -0700
                                Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 12:20 +1100
                                Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-16 22:40 -0500
                                  Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-03-16 09:44 -0700
                                    Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-16 12:10 -0600
                                      Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-16 19:53 +0000
                                        Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-03-16 17:01 -0700
                                      Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-17 07:39 -0500
                                        Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-18 12:42 +0000
                                          Re: Qbasic "Jim Bank" <jb410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-19 09:02 +1100
                                        Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-18 12:45 +0000
                                          Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-18 10:52 -0500
                                            Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-19 13:23 +0000
                                      Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-17 07:41 -0500
                                  Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-16 11:54 -0500
                                    Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-18 12:55 -0700
                                      Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-18 15:42 -0600
                                        Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-18 17:54 -0500
                                          Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-18 17:47 -0700
                                            Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-18 19:57 -0500
                                              Re: Qbasic Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-03-18 21:09 -0400
                                                Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-20 12:55 -0500
                                                  Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-03-20 14:39 -0700
                                                    Re: Qbasic Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-03-21 07:53 +0000
                                                      Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-21 12:00 -0500
                                                  Re: Qbasic Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2016-03-21 20:48 -0400
                                        Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-19 12:56 -0500
                                          Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-19 17:07 -0600
                                            Re: Qbasic Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-03-20 03:35 +0000
                                              Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-20 07:45 -0600
                                                Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-03-20 06:09 -0700
                                                  Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-20 09:16 -0600
                                                    Re: Qbasic "John Akers" <ja5443@gmail.com> - 2016-03-21 04:41 +1100
                                                      Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-20 13:21 -0600
                                                        Re: Qbasic "John Akers" <ja5443@gmail.com> - 2016-03-21 08:09 +1100
                                                        Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-20 16:37 -0500
                                                Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-21 13:17 +0000
                                            Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-20 17:02 -0500
                                              Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-20 18:04 -0600
                                                Re: Qbasic greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2016-03-21 15:57 +0000
                                                  Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-21 11:24 -0600
                                                    Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-21 16:51 +0000
                                                      Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-03-21 17:43 +0000
                                                    Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-21 12:55 -0500
                                                      Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-22 14:03 -0700
                                                        Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-22 16:26 -0500
                                                        Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-23 07:00 -0700
                                                    Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-22 13:56 -0700
                                                  Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-21 10:56 -0700
                                                    Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-21 11:14 -0700
                                                      Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-22 14:07 -0700
                                                        Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-22 17:08 -0700
                                                          Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-23 10:08 -0700
                                                      Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-04-13 07:57 -0700
                                                    Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-21 19:45 +0000
                                                    Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-21 13:51 -0700
                                                      Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-22 13:13 +0000
                                                        Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-22 07:27 -0700
                                                          Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-22 07:31 -0700
                                                            Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-03-22 08:31 -0700
                                                  Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-03-21 20:17 +0100
                                                Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-21 12:42 -0500
                                            Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-22 13:33 -0700
                                              Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-22 15:58 -0600
                                                Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-22 16:28 -0500
                                      Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-19 13:12 -0500
                                        Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-19 16:48 -0700
                                          Re: Qbasic Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-03-20 00:37 +0000
                                          Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-20 12:57 -0500
                                            Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-20 13:05 -0600
                                            Re: Qbasic Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-03-20 12:43 -0600
                                              Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-20 14:04 -0600
                                              Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-20 19:06 -0700
                                              Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-21 12:04 -0500
                                          Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-20 16:52 -0500
                                            Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-20 19:06 -0700
                                              Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-21 12:06 -0500
                                                Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-21 13:51 -0700
                                                  Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-21 19:03 -0500
                                                  Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-22 12:04 -0500
                                                    Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-22 12:17 -0600
                                                      Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-22 12:40 -0500
                                                      Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-22 17:43 +0000
                                                        Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-22 12:55 -0600
                                                        Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-22 11:20 -0700
                                                          Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-22 14:00 -0600
                                                            Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-22 14:32 -0500
                                                              Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-23 06:53 +1100
                                                              Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-22 15:03 -0600
                                                                Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-22 19:34 -0500
                                                                  Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-03-22 17:57 -0700
                                                              Re: Qbasic Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-03-22 21:47 +0000
                                                                Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-23 18:34 -0500
                                                                  Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-24 14:39 +1100
                                                          Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-23 07:00 -0700
                                                            Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-23 09:40 -0500
                                                              Re: Qbasic Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-03-23 16:26 +0000
                                                                Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-23 17:36 +0000
                                                                  Re: Qbasic Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-03-23 18:08 +0000
                                                                  Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-24 07:30 +1100
                                                            Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-23 15:16 -0500
                                                              Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-24 07:51 +1100
                                                              Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-03-24 01:14 +0100
                                                                Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-23 22:36 -0500
                                                              Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-23 19:02 -0700
                                                                Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-24 14:29 +1100
                                                                Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-24 13:03 +0000
                                                                  Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-25 12:57 +0000
                                                                    Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-25 09:22 -0500
                                                                      Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-26 04:03 +1100
                                                                      Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-26 13:24 +0000
                                                                        Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-27 04:14 +1100
                                                                        Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-28 12:00 -0700
                                                                          Re: Qbasic Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-03-29 07:55 +0100
                                                                            Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-29 13:55 +0000
                                                                              Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last,name.invalid> - 2016-03-29 17:12 +0200
                                                                                Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-29 09:17 -0700
                                                                                  Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-30 05:43 +1100
                                                                                    Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-03-30 05:39 +0100
                                                                                      Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-30 17:26 +1100
                                                                                        Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-03-30 09:56 +0100
                                                                                          Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-31 03:29 +1100
                                                                                      Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-30 10:01 +0000
                                                                                        Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-03-30 23:06 +0100
                                                                                      Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-30 06:15 -0700
                                                                                        Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-30 12:14 -0500
                                                                                          Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-31 07:08 +1100
                                                                                        Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-30 15:04 -0500
                                                                                        Re: Qbasic "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-03-31 11:17 -0500
                                                                                Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-30 05:37 +1100
                                                                              Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-29 15:54 +0000
                                                                                Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-29 09:17 -0700
                                                                                  Re: Qbasic Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-03-29 17:59 +0100
                                                                                  Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-29 17:08 -0700
                                                                                    Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-30 12:17 -0500
                                                                                      Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-30 11:01 -0700
                                                                                        Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-30 15:13 -0600
                                                                                          Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-31 08:14 +1100
                                                                                        Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-30 15:53 -0500
                                                                                        Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-31 09:40 -0400
                                                                                          Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-31 20:02 +0000
                                                                                            Re: Qbasic pechter@cobalt.pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) - 2016-04-01 16:02 +0000
                                                                                              Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-04-01 12:27 -0500
                                                                                      Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-31 09:40 -0400
                                                                                        Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-31 20:52 -0500
                                                                              Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-29 14:05 -0500
                                                                                Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-29 20:26 +0000
                                                                                Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-30 09:41 +1100
                                                                                Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-30 10:15 +0000
                                                                                  Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-30 15:17 -0500
                                                                                    Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-31 08:07 +1100
                                                                                    Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-31 09:40 -0400
                                                                                      Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-04-01 05:22 +1100
                                                                                Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-30 13:58 +0000
                                                                                  Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-30 16:05 +0000
                                                                                  Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-31 03:45 +1100
                                                                              Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-29 17:06 -0500
                                                                                Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-29 17:22 -0500
                                                                                  Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-03-29 22:04 -0700
                                                                                    Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-30 17:29 +1100
                                                                                    Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-30 12:19 -0500
                                                                                      Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-30 19:52 +0000
                                                                                        Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-04-02 13:12 -0700
                                                                                Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-30 13:58 +0000
                                                                                  Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-30 15:16 +0000
                                                                                    Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-31 03:58 +1100
                                                                                      Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-30 19:51 +0000
                                                                                        Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-31 07:13 +1100
                                                                                      Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-31 09:15 +0000
                                                                                        Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-31 21:19 +1100
                                                                                          Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-31 11:23 -0500
                                                                                            Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-04-01 05:38 +1100
                                                                                              Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-31 12:33 -0700
                                                                                      Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-03-31 12:16 +0200
                                                                                        Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-04-01 05:00 +1100
                                                                                    Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-31 12:41 +0000
                                                                                      Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-31 13:10 +0000
                                                                                        Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-31 11:27 -0500
                                                                                          Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-04-01 05:39 +1100
                                                                                          Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-31 20:55 -0500
                                                                                      Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-04-01 05:11 +1100
                                                                                  Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-30 12:20 -0500
                                                                                    Re: Qbasic Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-03-30 11:48 -0600
                                                                                      Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-30 15:56 -0500
                                                                                        Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-31 08:11 +1100
                                                                                        Re: Qbasic Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2016-03-31 16:41 -0400
                                                                                    Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-31 07:10 +1100
                                                                                    Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-31 09:40 -0400
                                                                                  Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-30 16:27 -0500
                                                                            Re: Qbasic Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-03-29 17:14 +0000
                                                                              Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-29 17:45 +0000
                                                                                Re: Qbasic Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-03-29 23:20 +0000
                                                                                  Re: Qbasic "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-03-31 11:19 -0500
                                                                                    Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-31 19:58 +0000
                                                                                      Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-04-02 13:24 -0700
                                                                                        Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-04-03 08:39 +0000
                                                                                          Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-04-03 13:47 +0200
                                                                                            Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-04-03 12:18 -0400
                                                                                              Re: Qbasic Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2016-04-04 10:48 -0400
                                                                                                Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-04-04 12:00 -0500
                                                                                                  Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-04-04 14:49 -0400
                                                                                                    Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-04-04 18:38 -0500
                                                                                                    Re: Qbasic Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2016-04-09 18:23 +0200
                                                                                                Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-04-04 14:49 -0400
                                                                                                Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-04-04 20:50 +0000
                                                                                            Re: Qbasic "Thomas Johns" <TJzz@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 04:03 +1000
                                                                                              Re: Qbasic Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2016-04-04 10:45 -0400
                                                                                          Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-04-03 12:18 -0400
                                                                                            Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-04-03 14:45 -0500
                                                                                            Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-04-04 17:34 -0700
                                                                                              Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-04-05 13:10 +0000
                                                                                                Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-04-05 10:16 -0500
                                                                    Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-26 04:05 +1100
                                                                      Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-25 12:15 -0600
                                                                    Re: Qbasic greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2016-03-26 11:43 +0000
                                                                    Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-26 12:43 -0500
                                                                      Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-28 11:55 -0700
                                                                        Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-03-28 12:24 -0700
                                                                          Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-29 07:31 +1100
                                                                        Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-29 07:24 +1100
                                                                        Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-28 15:53 -0600
                                                                          Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-28 21:24 +0000
                                                                  Re: Qbasic Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-03-25 22:48 +0000
                                                                    Re: Qbasic Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-03-26 07:04 +0000
                                                                      Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-27 04:18 +1100
                                                                        Re: Qbasic Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-03-26 17:59 +0000
                                                                          Re: Qbasic Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-03-26 19:50 +0000
                                                                            Re: Qbasic greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2016-03-26 20:22 +0000
                                                                              Re: Qbasic Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2016-03-27 04:34 -0300
                                                                                Re: Qbasic greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2016-03-27 09:18 +0000
                                                                                Re: Qbasic Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-03-27 17:45 +0000
                                                                            Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-27 13:28 +0000
                                                                              Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 04:21 +1100
                                                                    Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-26 13:24 +0000
                                                                      Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-27 04:17 +1100
                                                                      Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-26 12:47 -0500
                                                                      Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-28 11:50 -0700
                                                                    Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-28 11:48 -0700
                                                                      Re: Qbasic Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-03-29 07:29 +0100
                                                                Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-24 09:41 -0500
                                                                  Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-24 09:52 -0600
                                                                    Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-24 10:18 -0500
                                                                      Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-24 10:39 -0600
                                                                        Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-24 09:21 -0700
                                                                  Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-24 10:37 -0700
                                                                    Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-24 11:04 -0700
                                                                      Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-24 14:19 -0700
                                                                        Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-04-11 23:00 -0700
                                                                    Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-24 13:25 -0500
                                                                      Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-25 07:15 +1100
                                                                      Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-24 13:35 -0700
                                                                    Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-25 05:26 +1100
                                                                    Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-24 13:20 -0700
                                                                    Re: Qbasic greymaus <mausg@mail.com> - 2016-03-25 12:17 +0000
                                                                      Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-26 04:09 +1100
                                                                  Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-24 13:12 -0700
                                                                  Re: Qbasic Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2016-03-27 04:43 -0300
                                                                    Re: Qbasic jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-03-27 13:26 +0000
                                                                      Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 04:45 +1100
                                                                        Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-27 13:02 -0500
                                                                          Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-27 19:11 +0000
                                                                          Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-27 15:25 -0700
                                                                            Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-03-27 15:40 -0700
                                                                            Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-27 17:40 -0500
                                                                              Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 11:10 +1100
                                                                            Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 11:08 +1100
                                                                            Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-28 09:39 +0000
                                                                        Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-27 11:15 -0700
                                                                          Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-27 12:02 -0700
                                                                          Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 07:32 +1100
                                                                          Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-27 17:48 -0500
                                                                            Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-03-27 15:53 -0700
                                                                              Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-28 13:29 -0500
                                                                                Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-28 12:50 -0700
                                                                                  Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-29 07:34 +1100
                                                                                    Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-28 21:12 +0000
                                                                                  Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-29 13:11 +0000
                                                                                    Re: Qbasic Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-03-29 14:47 +0100
                                                                                      Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-29 15:49 +0000
                                                                                  Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-29 17:15 -0500
                                                                                    Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-29 17:17 -0700
                                                                                      Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-30 06:15 -0700
                                                                                        Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-30 12:22 -0500
                                                                                          Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-31 09:40 -0400
                                                                                            Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-04-01 05:25 +1100
                                                                                            Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-31 20:08 +0000
                                                                                            Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-31 20:57 -0500
                                                                                              Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-04-01 07:39 +0000
                                                                                                Re: Qbasic Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-04-01 09:14 +0100
                                                                                                  Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-04-01 13:51 +0000
                                                                                                    Re: Qbasic Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-04-02 06:23 +0100
                                                                                                      Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-04-02 08:33 +0000
                                                                                        Re: Qbasic Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2016-04-04 12:27 -0400
                                                                                          Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-04-04 20:54 +0000
                                                                            Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-27 17:45 -0700
                                                                              Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-28 13:30 -0500
                                                                    Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-27 13:12 -0700
                                                                      Re: Qbasic Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2016-03-27 18:31 -0300
                                                                        Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-27 16:32 -0700
                                                                      Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-28 09:30 +0000
                                                                        Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-29 04:17 +1100
                                                                      Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-03-28 04:57 -0700
                                                                        Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-28 12:50 -0700
                                                                      Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-29 04:30 +1100
                                                                        Re: Qbasic Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2016-04-04 10:55 -0400
                                                                          Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-04-04 11:01 -0700
                                                                            Re: Qbasic Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-04-04 19:43 +0100
                                                                              Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-04-04 23:31 +0200
                                                                            Re: Qbasic "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-04-04 17:15 -0500
                                                                              Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-04-05 00:42 +0200
                                                                      Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-28 11:41 -0700
                                                                        Re: Qbasic "764hho" <764hho@nospam.com> - 2016-03-29 07:20 +1100
                                                                        Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-28 14:56 -0700
                                                                    Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-28 11:30 -0700
                                                                      Re: Qbasic Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-03-28 12:20 -0700
                                                                        Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-29 17:11 -0700
                                                                          Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-29 20:33 -0500
                                                                            Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-30 10:18 +0000
                                                                            Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-30 06:15 -0700
                                                                              Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-30 16:07 +0000
                                                                          Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-30 06:15 -0700
                                                                            Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-30 15:14 +0000
                                                                              Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-30 09:15 -0700
                                                              Re: Qbasic Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-03-23 19:58 -0700
                                                        Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-23 06:45 +1100
                                                          Re: Qbasic "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-03-22 15:07 -0600
                                                            Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-23 07:20 +1100
                                                      Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-22 13:24 -0500
                                                        Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-03-22 19:50 +0000
                                                          Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-23 11:05 +0000
                                                            Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-23 09:41 -0500
                                                        Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-23 17:12 -0700
                                                          Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-24 06:30 -0700
                                                            Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-24 10:07 -0500
                                                              Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-24 10:37 -0700
                                                                Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-24 14:03 -0500
                                                                  Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-24 14:46 -0500
                                                                    Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-24 16:59 -0500
                                              Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-21 13:59 -0500
                                                Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-22 14:23 -0700
                                                  Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-25 13:57 -0500
                                              Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-22 13:54 -0700
                                        Re: Qbasic Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-03-21 17:46 -0400
                                          Re: Qbasic mausg@mail.com - 2016-03-22 11:31 +0000
                                            Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-03-22 13:15 +0100
                                            Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-23 04:48 +1100
                                  Re: Qbasic "Jim Bank" <jb410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-17 07:37 +1100
                                    Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-16 18:55 -0700
                                      Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-16 21:04 -0500
                                      Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-17 13:48 +1100
                                        Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-17 00:49 -0700
                                          Re: Qbasic Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-03-17 09:28 +0100
                                          Re: Qbasic Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2016-03-17 10:45 -0500
                                          Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-18 08:16 +1100
                                      Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-17 12:58 +0000
                                        Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-17 06:55 -0700
                                          Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-18 13:08 -0700
                                            Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-19 09:22 +1100
                                            Re: Qbasic Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2016-03-18 18:12 -0500
                                              Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-18 17:47 -0700
                                                Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-18 20:00 -0500
                                                  Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-19 07:28 -0700
                                                    Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-21 13:50 +0000
                                                      Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-21 13:51 -0700
                                                        Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-22 13:12 +0000
                                                          Re: Qbasic Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-03-22 07:27 -0700
                                                            Re: Qbasic Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-03-22 17:35 +0000
                                                              Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-22 17:44 +0000
                                                            Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-23 17:07 -0700
                                                              Re: Qbasic scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-03-24 13:05 +0000
                                        Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-18 13:04 -0700
                                          Re: Qbasic "hanja" <hanja228@gmail.com> - 2016-03-19 09:21 +1100
                                      Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-03-18 12:59 -0700
                                Re: Qbasic JimP. <blue@cwahi.net> - 2016-03-16 23:00 -0500
                              Re: Qbasic "Sangmo" <ju410@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 12:10 +1100
                        Re: Qbasic "Alexis" <ggyy@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 10:07 +1100
                        Re: Qbasic Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-03-04 21:45 -0800
                          Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-03-05 10:50 +0000
                            Re: Qbasic Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-03-06 13:52 -0800
                    Re: Qbasic Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-02-29 09:04 +0000
                      Re: Qbasic "Alexis" <ggyy@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 04:32 +1100
              Re: Qbasic JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-02-28 10:39 -0600
            Re: Qbasic Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-02-26 11:59 -0500
            Re: Qbasic hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-02-27 10:17 -0800

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#160448

FromAhem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date2016-03-02 13:46 +0000
Message-ID<20160302134629.5dabace7012a3c8eff048566@eircom.net>
In reply to#160446
On 2 Mar 2016 12:26:55 GMT
mausg@mail.com wrote:

> On 2016-03-01, Ibmekon <Ibmekon> wrote:
> > On Sat, 27 Feb 2016 14:37:48 -0500 (EST), sidd@situ.com (sidd) wrote:
> >>
> >>"The Big Short" is a good movie.
> >>
> >>sidd
> >
> > Just watched the movie.
> > Wonderfully life affirming.
> >
> > Carl Goldsworthy
> > --
> > In a "zero sum game" there are no winners.
> 
> AFAIbelieve a zero sum game is where there is no `house'
> charge?.

	That's one way to look at it, except that in some games the 'house
charge' may be negative, these are positive sum games - technology
development is one example. A zero sum game is one in which the total in
play is fixed - a friendly poker game for example. There are also negative
sum games in which the total decreases (nuclear war for example).

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#160480

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2016-03-02 21:09 +0000
Message-ID<nb7kpf02e6u@news4.newsguy.com>
In reply to#160448
On 2016-03-02, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On 2 Mar 2016 12:26:55 GMT
> mausg@mail.com wrote:
>
>> On 2016-03-01, Ibmekon <Ibmekon> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 27 Feb 2016 14:37:48 -0500 (EST), sidd@situ.com (sidd) wrote:
>>>
>>>> "The Big Short" is a good movie.
>>>
>>> Just watched the movie.
>>> Wonderfully life affirming.
>>>
>>> Carl Goldsworthy
>>> --
>>> In a "zero sum game" there are no winners.
>> 
>> AFAIbelieve a zero sum game is where there is no `house'
>> charge?.
>
> 	That's one way to look at it, except that in some games the 'house
> charge' may be negative, these are positive sum games - technology
> development is one example. A zero sum game is one in which the total in
> play is fixed - a friendly poker game for example. There are also negative
> sum games in which the total decreases (nuclear war for example).

Nevertheless, some people may favour a negative sum game if they think
that they can scoop up most of what's left.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

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#160493

FromAhem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date2016-03-03 05:33 +0000
Message-ID<20160303053329.97e148aab83f37b609d6e3a7@eircom.net>
In reply to#160480
On 2 Mar 2016 21:09:03 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> On 2016-03-02, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> 
> > On 2 Mar 2016 12:26:55 GMT
> > mausg@mail.com wrote:
> >
> >> On 2016-03-01, Ibmekon <Ibmekon> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Sat, 27 Feb 2016 14:37:48 -0500 (EST), sidd@situ.com (sidd) wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> "The Big Short" is a good movie.
> >>>
> >>> Just watched the movie.
> >>> Wonderfully life affirming.
> >>>
> >>> Carl Goldsworthy
> >>> --
> >>> In a "zero sum game" there are no winners.
> >> 
> >> AFAIbelieve a zero sum game is where there is no `house'
> >> charge?.
> >
> > 	That's one way to look at it, except that in some games the
> > 'house charge' may be negative, these are positive sum games -
> > technology development is one example. A zero sum game is one in which
> > the total in play is fixed - a friendly poker game for example. There
> > are also negative sum games in which the total decreases (nuclear war
> > for example).
> 
> Nevertheless, some people may favour a negative sum game if they think
> that they can scoop up most of what's left.

	Lotteries being a prime example.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#160466

FromIbmekon <Ibmekon>
Date2016-03-02 19:28 +0000
Message-ID<u9eedbl2lpfmco2jbek6onkp0gva1aachv@4ax.com>
In reply to#160446
On 2 Mar 2016 12:26:55 GMT, mausg@mail.com wrote:

>On 2016-03-01, Ibmekon <Ibmekon> wrote:
>> On Sat, 27 Feb 2016 14:37:48 -0500 (EST), sidd@situ.com (sidd) wrote:
>>>
>>>"The Big Short" is a good movie.
>>>
>>>sidd
>>
>> Just watched the movie.
>> Wonderfully life affirming.
>>
>> Carl Goldsworthy
>> --
>> In a "zero sum game" there are no winners.
>
>AFAIbelieve a zero sum game is where there is no `house'
>charge?.

Just so.
The popular current context is the Derivatives market, unregulated but
estimated at $1.2 quadrillion.
Advocates say the size is immaterial, it is a "zero sum game".
Of course if an Irish bank, eg AIB lost a few tens of billions to a
German bank, eg Deutsche, the effect on the Irish taxpayer is not
zero.

In the "The Big Short", the guy who was first to realise the impending
CFD CDO housing meltdown around 2007 was asked how he could predict
this.
He said there are signs before a market collapse - one indicator is
when the financial products get ever more complex. It is a sign that
Wallstreet is hiding the sh1t in an opaque wrapper.

Carl Goldsworthy
--
Derivatives is a "zero sum game" - "The Big Lie". 

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#160484

FromAnne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Date2016-03-02 15:45 -0800
Message-ID<87lh60l9zr.fsf@garlic.com>
In reply to#160466
Ibmekon <Ibmekon> writes:
> Just so.
> The popular current context is the Derivatives market, unregulated but
> estimated at $1.2 quadrillion.
> Advocates say the size is immaterial, it is a "zero sum game".
> Of course if an Irish bank, eg AIB lost a few tens of billions to a
> German bank, eg Deutsche, the effect on the Irish taxpayer is not
> zero.
>
> In the "The Big Short", the guy who was first to realise the impending
> CFD CDO housing meltdown around 2007 was asked how he could predict
> this.
> He said there are signs before a market collapse - one indicator is
> when the financial products get ever more complex. It is a sign that
> Wallstreet is hiding the sh1t in an opaque wrapper.
>
> Carl Goldsworthy
> --
> Derivatives is a "zero sum game" - "The Big Lie". 


securitized mortgages had been used during the S&L crisis to obfuscate
fraudulent mortgages. Early 1999, I'm asked to look at improving the
integrity of mortgage supporting documents as countermeasure. A FED LEO
explains that many of the investment bankers walked away "clean" from
the S&L crisis and they were currently manipulating the INTERNET IPO
market mill and they were predicted to get into mortgages next.

The problem then is that they find they can pay the rating agencies for
triple-A rating (when both the sellers and the rating agencies know they
weren't worth triple-A from Oct2008 congressional testimony) on toxic
CDOs; triple-A rating trumps supporting documentation and they can start
doing no-documentation, liar loans.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#toxic.cdo

during the first part of the century up through the crash ... there are
periodic industry articles about how complex the math is to correctly
value these products ... which is largely obfuscation since valuation is
dependent on valid supporting documents ... which they didn't have.
During this period there were periodic comments about the enormous
amounts of money to be made playing the game ... but it was a little
like musical chairs ... you had to know when to get out just before the
music stops (they knew it would meltdown, it wasn't if, it was when).

from the law of unintended consequences ... the biggest fines on the
"too big to fail" (for all this) have been for the robo-signing mills
that were fabricating the documents for the no-documentation liar loans
... in order to file foreclosers. Note they were able to scam that also.
They setup the firms that were supposed to administer the fines for the
benefit of the foreclosure victims ... and little of the money actually
make it to the victims.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#too-big-to-fail

When the chair of CFTC suggests regulating derivatives, the forces
are marsheled and the chair is replaced with the wife of #2 on times
list of those responsible for the financial mess
http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1877351_1877350_1877330,00.html

while the senator gets law passed prevented regulating derivatives
(billed as gift to ENRON who is heavily playing in derivatives), the
wife then resigns and joins the ENRON board and audit committee.

Originally triple-A rating on toxic CDOs eliminated any reason to care
about borrower's qualification or loan quality. Then they realize that
they can design toxic CDOs to fail, pay for triple-A, sell to their
customer victims, and take out CDS/derivative gambling bets that they
would fail (they now have reason to care about loan quality, they
want large numbers that are as bad as possible)

The largest holder of the CDS gambling bets was AIG and is negotiating
to pay off at 50cents on the dollar when the secretary of treasury steps
in and says that they have to sign a document that they can't sue those
making the gambling bets and forced to take TARP funds to pay off the
CDS gambling bets at face value. The largest recipient of TARP funds is
AIG and the largest recipient of face value payoffs is the firm formally
headed by the secretary of treasury.

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#160485

FromAnne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Date2016-03-02 16:27 -0800
Message-ID<87h9gol81z.fsf@garlic.com>
In reply to#160466
Late 80s, calculations on CITIs ARM mortgage portfolio shows that minor
rate changes can result in bringing the bank down. At the time, CITI was
the largest player in the market, it then gets out of the mortgage market,
sells off its portfolio and requires private bailout (Saudi prince) to
stay in business. old long-winded post touching on it and other subjects
from Jan1999
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay3.htm#riskm

Black-Scholes is major model for calculating risk for these triple-A
rated toxic CDO ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black%E2%80%93Scholes

the person responsible for the CITI portfolio calculations publishes a
number of industry articles in 2006 time-frame showing the Black-Scholes
calculations aren't accounting for the various kinds of CDO risk (not
even taking into account that the triple-A ratings aren't
accurate/correct and the lack of documentation on which to base risk
calculations).

Despite CITIs experience from late 80s ARM mortgage portfolio, last
decade, CITI is one of the four largest "too big to fail" players
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#too-big-to-fail

some more of citi
http://wallstreetonparade.com/2012/08/the-untold-story-of-the-bailout-of-citigroup/

Earlier, president of AMEX "wins" competition to be the next CEO. The
looser takes their protegee and leave, going to Baltimore taking over
what is described as loan sharking business. They make some number of
other acquisitions and eventually take-over CITI in violation of
glass-steagall. some posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#Pecora&/orGlass-Steagal

Greenspan gives them an exemption while they lobby congress for
repeal. some Greenspan (and other FED chairman) posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#greenspan

They get lots of help from the then secretary of treasury (and former
head of goldman sachs) with repeal of glass-steagall ... who resigns
afterwards and joins CITI, at the time described as co-CEO. The protegee
then leaves and becomes CEO of another of the four largest "too big to
fail".

AMEX is in competition with KKR for LBO, private-equity take-over of
RJR and KKR wins
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarians_at_the_Gate:_The_Fall_of_RJR_Nabisco
the industry gets such a bad reputation during the S&L crisis
that they change the industry name to "private equity" (and
junk bonds become "high yield" bonds), some posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#private.equity

KKR then runs into trouble and hires away the president of KKR to turn
it around. IBM has gone into the red and is being reorganized into the
13 "baby blues" in preparation to breaking up the company. The board
then hires away the former president of IBM to reverse the breakup
and resurrect the company ... using some of the same techniques
used at RJR
http://www.ibmemployee.com/RetirementHeist.shtml

some posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#gerstner

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#160500

FromAnne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Date2016-03-03 01:02 -0800
Message-ID<87d1rckk71.fsf@garlic.com>
In reply to#160485
Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:
> Greenspan gives them an exemption while they lobby congress for
> repeal. some Greenspan (and other FED chairman) posts
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#greenspan

note when chair of CFTC suggested regulating derivatives/CDSs, Greenspan
participated in getting the chair replace (with wife of senator that is
#2 on time's list of those responsible for economic mess, after senator
gets legislation passed preventing CDS regulation ... characterized as
gift to ENRON, his wife resigns and joins ENRON board & audit
committee).
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#enron

Reports are Greenspan supported congress letting fiscal responsibility
act (spending can't exceed tax revenue) expire in 2002 because he was
concerned about effect it would have had eliminating all federal
debt. 2010 CBO report has tax revenue cut by $6T and spending increased
by $6T for $12T budget gap (compared to fiscal responsibility
act). Since then the tax revenue hasn't been restored and only modest
efforts on reducing the spending ... so federal debt has further
balooned and interest on federal debt is approaching half trillion.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#fiscal.responsibility.act

Note that just the four largest "too big to fail" were still holding
$5.2T in off-book toxic assets the end of 2008 ... so there was no
possibility that the $700B appropriated for buying toxic assets in TARP
would make more than small dent in the problem. Instead TARP is used for
other purposes ... and the Federal Reserve is buying toxic assets at
98cents on the dollar and providing tens of trillions in ZIRP funds.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#too-big-to-fail

Bernanke holds a press conference not long after the Federal Reserve
looses the long drawn out legal proceedings to force it to divulge what
it was doing for bailout (including ZIRP funds) ... and says that he
assumed that the "too big to fail" would use the ZIRP funds to lend to
mainstreet, but when they didn't, he had no way to force them
... instead they were buying treasuries (federal debt) and taking in
avg. of $300B/annum (compared to aggregate of $300B in fines for all
illegal activity since economic mess). Supposedly one of the choices of
Bernanke (to replace Greenspan) was he was a depression era scholar, but
the FED had tried something similar then with the same results, so
Bernanke should have had no expectations that they would do something
different this time. In any case, w/o the explosion in the federal debt,
the "too big to fail" wouldn't have safe place to park ZIRP funds for
the $300B/annum.

latest in the deferred prosecution sagas (gov. & HSBC fighting to
prevent disclosure of all the charges & settlement) ... part of the
reason that "too big to fail" are now also referred to as "too big to
prosecute" and "too big to jail" ... and the fines (small compared to
the amounts involves) are viewed as the cost of doing criminal business

How The U.S. Government And HSBC Teamed Up To Hide The Truth From A
Pennsylvania Couple
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-03-02/how-us-government-and-hsbc-teamed-hide-truth-pennsylvania-couple

including money laundering for drug cartels and terrorists
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#money.laundering

older case
http://www.businessinsider.com/how-wachovia-laundered-billions-in-mexican-drug-money-2011-4
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/04/wachovia-paid-trivial-fine-for-nearly-400-billion-of-drug-related-money-laundering.html

past posts mentioning deferred prosecution:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014i.html#10 Instead of focusing on big fines, law enforcement should seek long prison terms for the responsible executives
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015d.html#80 Greedy Banks Nailed With $5 BILLION+ Fine For Fraud And Corruption
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015e.html#23 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015e.html#44 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015e.html#47 Do we REALLY NEED all this regulatory oversight?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#36 Eric Holder, Wall Street Double Agent, Comes in From the Cold
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#37 LIBOR: History's Largest Financial Crime that the WSJ and NYT Would Like You to Forget
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#57 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#61 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#31 Talk of Criminally Prosecuting Corporations Up, Actual Prosecutions Down
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#44 rationality
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#47 rationality
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#65 Economic Mess
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2016.html#10 25 Years: How the Web began
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2016b.html#0 Thanks Obama

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#161125

FromAnne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Date2016-03-16 17:59 -0700
Message-ID<87oaadx6k0.fsf@garlic.com>
In reply to#160485
Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:
> Late 80s, calculations on CITIs ARM mortgage portfolio shows that minor
> rate changes can result in bringing the bank down. At the time, CITI was
> the largest player in the market, it then gets out of the mortgage market,
> sells off its portfolio and requires private bailout (Saudi prince) to
> stay in business. old long-winded post touching on it and other subjects
> from Jan1999
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay3.htm#riskm

The Untold Story of Why the SEC Paid Whistleblower Eric Hunsader
$750,000
http://wallstreetonparade.com/2016/03/the-untold-story-of-why-the-sec-paid-whistleblower-eric-hunsader-750000/

Now we have learned a fact that might explain the low award to Hunsader,
the three years it took to pay the award, and the slap on the wrist fine
to the New York Stock Exchange while allowing it to go about its
business of charging obscene fees for vastly different speeds of access
to stock exchange data. Lawyers at Covington & Burling represented the
New York Stock Exchange in this matter and bragged in an article carried
on its web site that "NYSE Euronext got off with just a $5 million fine
over allegations that it released market data to some clients faster
than others."

... snip ...

Why was no one prosecuted for contributing to the financial crisis? New
documents reveal why
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bethany-mclean-why-no-one-prosecuted-for-financial-crisis-fcic-new-documents-233806072.html
National Archives Opens Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission Records
http://www.archives.gov/press/press-releases/2016/nr16-45.html
Rigged Justice: 2016 ; How Weak Enforcement Lets Corporate Offenders Off
Easy
http://www.warren.senate.gov/files/documents/Rigged_Justice_2016.pdf

long ago and far away, we were called in as consultants to small
client/server startup that wanted to do payment transactions on their
server, they had also invented this technology called "SSL"; the results
is now frequently called "electronic commerce"

Somewhat for doing "electronic commerce", in the mid-90s we were asked
to participate in the X9A10 financial standard working group that had
been given the requirement to preserve the integrity of the financial
infrastructure for *ALL* retail payments (not just internet). One of the
other members was from NSCC and later we got asked to come in (before
NSCC merged with DTC to become DTCC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Securities_Clearing_Corporation

to look at improving the integrity of exchange transactions. I work on
it for awhile and then get call that it was being suspended.
Unfortunately a side-effect of the integrity work was vastly improved
"transparency and visibility" ... which is an anathema to wallstreet.

Somewhat before HFT really takes off, ... "while illegal - was safe
enough because, 'the Securities and Exchange Commmission never
understands this.'" (or maybe just looks the otherway)
http://nypost.com/2007/03/20/cramer-reveals-a-bit-too-much/

In the congressional Madoff hearings they had the person that had tried
unsuccessfully for a decade to get SEC to do something about
Madoff. They asked him if new regulations were needed. He responded that
while new regulations might be needed, much more important "transparency
and visibility" was required.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#madoff

About the same time in the late 90s that I was (also) asked in to NSCC,
I was also asked if I could help prevent the coming economic mess. A
long winded post from Jan1999.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay3.html#riskm

Securitized mortgages had been used during the S&L crisis to obfuscate
fraudulent mortgages (poster child was office bldgs in dallas/ft.worth
that turned out to be empty lots). I was asked to look at improving
integrity of supporting documents as countermeasure. Then they found
they could pay for triple-A rating (when rating agencies knew they
weren't worth triple-A) ... triple-A trumps supporting documents and
they can start doing no-documentation liar loans (no-documents means
that there is no longer any supporting documents). The triple-A rating
largely responsible for being able to do over $27T 2001-2008 (selling to
funds restricted to dealing in "safe" investments like large public &
private pension funds).
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#toxic.cdo

Jan2009 (a decade later), I was asked to HTML'ize the Pecora hearings
(30s senate hearings into crash of '29 that results in Glass-Steagall
and criminal convictions) with lots of internal x-refs and URLs between
what happened then and what happened this time (comments that the new
congress might have appetite to do something). I work on it for awhile
and then get a call saying that it won't be needed after all (comments
about enormous piles of wallstreet money totally burying capital hill).
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#Pecora&/orGlass-Steagal

Was the U.S. Justice Department Sold to the Highest Bidder
http://wallstreetonparade.com/2012/09/was-the-u-s-justice-department-sold-to-the-highest-bidder/
Crisis of Confidence in U.S. Justice Department Grows
http://wallstreetonparade.com/2014/05/crisis-of-confidence-in-u-s-justice-department-grows/
The Whites Go to the SEC: Why Wall Street Still Owns Washington
http://wallstreetonparade.com/2013/03/the-whites-go-to-the-sec-why-wall-street-still-owns-washington/

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#161158

FromAnne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Date2016-03-17 10:42 -0700
Message-ID<87k2l13sro.fsf@garlic.com>
In reply to#161125
Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:
> Why was no one prosecuted for contributing to the financial crisis? New
> documents reveal why
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bethany-mclean-why-no-one-prosecuted-for-financial-crisis-fcic-new-documents-233806072.html
> National Archives Opens Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission Records
> http://www.archives.gov/press/press-releases/2016/nr16-45.html
> Rigged Justice: 2016 ; How Weak Enforcement Lets Corporate Offenders Off
> Easy
> http://www.warren.senate.gov/files/documents/Rigged_Justice_2016.pdf
> Was the U.S. Justice Department Sold to the Highest Bidder
> http://wallstreetonparade.com/2012/09/was-the-u-s-justice-department-sold-to-the-highest-bidder/
> Crisis of Confidence in U.S. Justice Department Grows
> http://wallstreetonparade.com/2014/05/crisis-of-confidence-in-u-s-justice-department-grows/
> The Whites Go to the SEC: Why Wall Street Still Owns Washington
> http://wallstreetonparade.com/2013/03/the-whites-go-to-the-sec-why-wall-street-still-owns-washington/

US Congressman Says Bankers Should Find Way to 'Neuter' Sen. Elizabeth
Warren
http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/03/16/us-congressman-says-bankers-should-find-way-neuter-sen-elizabeth-warren
Congressman calls on bankers to 'neuter' Elizabeth Warren -- the
'Darth Vader' of Wall Street
https://www.rawstory.com/2016/03/congressman-calls-on-bankers-to-neuter-elizabeth-warren-the-darth-vader-of-wall-street/
GOP Congressman Fears Elizabeth Warren, Makes Trump-esque Comment
About How to Stop Her
http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/gop-congressman-fears-elizabeth-warren-makes-trump-esque-comment-about-how-stop

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#160256

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2016-02-27 19:43 +0000
Message-ID<nasu8o02mh5@news7.newsguy.com>
In reply to#160241
On 2016-02-27, Ibmekon <Ibmekon> wrote:

> On Fri, 26 Feb 2016 23:12:47 -0500 (EST), sidd@situ.com (sidd) wrote:
>
>> In article <naq6ls$8go$1@dont-email.me>,
>> Stephen Sprunk  <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Originally, private fire companies would respond to fires--and sit
>>> around until the property owner agreed to pay their bill.  
>>
>> Crassus. Rome.
>
> Puts modern banksters to shame.

Shhh!  Don't let them hear you or they'll set this as a new goal.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

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#160249

Fromhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
Date2016-02-27 10:21 -0800
Message-ID<ddd3350b-66d3-491d-9022-43676051e823@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#160211
On Friday, February 26, 2016 at 5:38:19 AM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article , dave.garland
> says...
> > 
> > On 2/25/2016 8:41 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> > 
> > > Please provide an example of the United States government successfully
> > > "taking over the private sector".
> > 
> > Air Traffic Control
> > Highways
> > Weather Service
> > Public Health (e.g. CDC)
> > Medicare
> > Social Security
> > Superfund cleanups
> > 
> > Many examples of lower levels of government (firemen, water supply, 
> > waste disposal, schools, health departments)
> > 
> > All services that were provided poorly, if at all, by the "private" 
> > sector.
> 
> The challenge was to provide examples of services that had been offered 
> by the private sector and were successfully taken over by the Federal 
> government.  That  you do not know the difference between being taken 
> over and being originated, the difference between the US government and 
> state and local government, and that given recent news items "water 
> supply" is a really bad example all suggest that you are an example of 
> why "schools" is another bad example.

Many of those listed above were originally operated by the private
sector, and the government had to take them over so they'd work
better.

Highways were once privately owned (a few still exist*), but this
proved inadequate, and govt took them over.

The airlines were unable to provide traffic control (even though the
railroads can do so), so the govt has been running it.

Industry has been 'great' at making an enormous environmental mess,
and then walking away, leaving it for the taxpayer to clean up (Superfund
sites).


* Like the 'apron lady bridge' on the upper Delaware R.

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#160257

FromMorten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid>
Date2016-02-27 20:19 +0100
Message-ID<kf99qc-8ma.ln1@sambook.reistad.name>
In reply to#160249
In article <ddd3350b-66d3-491d-9022-43676051e823@googlegroups.com>,
 <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>On Friday, February 26, 2016 at 5:38:19 AM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>> In article , dave.garland
>> says...
>> > 
>> > On 2/25/2016 8:41 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> > 
>> > > Please provide an example of the United States government successfully
>> > > "taking over the private sector".
>> > 
>> > Air Traffic Control
>> > Highways
>> > Weather Service
>> > Public Health (e.g. CDC)
>> > Medicare
>> > Social Security
>> > Superfund cleanups
>> > 
>> > Many examples of lower levels of government (firemen, water supply, 
>> > waste disposal, schools, health departments)
>> > 
>> > All services that were provided poorly, if at all, by the "private" 
>> > sector.
>> 
>> The challenge was to provide examples of services that had been offered 
>> by the private sector and were successfully taken over by the Federal 
>> government.  That  you do not know the difference between being taken 
>> over and being originated, the difference between the US government and 
>> state and local government, and that given recent news items "water 
>> supply" is a really bad example all suggest that you are an example of 
>> why "schools" is another bad example.
>
>Many of those listed above were originally operated by the private
>sector, and the government had to take them over so they'd work
>better.

If you want to analyze what works in the private and in the public
sector you must look to Europe, not to the US.

There have been at least 25 different states trying out various mixes
since Mrs Thatcher was elected. (That was the watershed that turned a
whole continent away from socialism).

Some consensus are appearing. 

Infrastructure generally work best in public, or in strongly
regulated companies. Like the physical rails, roads, and the physical
electrical grid and local fiber optical paths.

These are natural monopolies, and form critical functions in society.

The services on to of this, e.g. the rolling stock, cars and buses, 
the actual electricity, and the internet and telephone signals should
not be the domain of the state. This should be for free enterprise, with
a benign regulator just overseeing basic safety and monopoly control.

>Highways were once privately owned (a few still exist*), but this
>proved inadequate, and govt took them over.

There are some (more than in the US) private highways in the EU, but
they are all strictly regulated.

>The airlines were unable to provide traffic control (even though the
>railroads can do so), so the govt has been running it.
>
>Industry has been 'great' at making an enormous environmental mess,
>and then walking away, leaving it for the taxpayer to clean up (Superfund
>sites).

Emergency health/fire responders are generally semi-public, with some
company providing them; often 100% publically owned. These are strongly
regulated, since they are monopolies. Police is always the state, since
it kind of defines the state.

Hospitals are often private, or semi-private, but are regulated. The
rates for operations and other cures are often fixed in tenders by the
single billing funder, with exception reporting for special cases. There are
less than 5% special cases.

This way the costs are generally less than half of what they are in the US.

Up here in Scandinavia we pay a flat tax of ~15% to a special fund that
covers all medical costs and basic pensions; up to ~50k$. This is run
separately from the state's other business, and is pretty transparent.
The medical bill overhead is around 6%.

-- mrr

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#160213

From"Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net>
Date2016-02-26 08:27 -0600
Message-ID<djb5lvFhsjuU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#160207
"Dave Garland" wrote:

> On 2/25/2016 8:41 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> Please provide an example of the United States government successfully
>> "taking over the private sector".
>
> Air Traffic Control
> Highways
> Weather Service
> Public Health (e.g. CDC)
> Medicare
> Social Security
> Superfund cleanups
>
> Many examples of lower levels of government (firemen, water supply, waste 
> disposal, schools, health departments)
>
> All services that were provided poorly, if at all, by the "private" 
> sector.

It's kind of amazing to me but there were housing devlopments where each 
house actually had it's own well and septic system. 

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#160251

Fromhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
Date2016-02-27 10:25 -0800
Message-ID<823a3ef1-118a-4ad5-8c67-85d090c13c1d@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#160213
On Friday, February 26, 2016 at 9:27:14 AM UTC-5, Osmium wrote:


> It's kind of amazing to me but there were housing devlopments where each 
> house actually had it's own well and septic system.

A great many housing developments were built that way.

Some of them have discovered the wells are contaminated, and they
are converting to piped in water and piped out sewage.

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#160327

FromStephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org>
Date2016-02-29 09:30 -0600
Message-ID<nb1o0s$gt8$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#160203
On 25-Feb-16 20:41, J. Clarke wrote:
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com says...
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>> Well, yes, because "ACA" contains a lie--we're all for
>>> "affordable care", but that is not something that Obamacare
>>> provides.
>> 
>> It has for lots of people.
> 
> How, by charging higher premiums for policies with higher
> deductibles?

My deductible hasn't gone up a penny, and my premiums have gone up less
in the last few years than they did before.

> Obamacare is not cheap nor is the coverage particularly good.

Coverage is the same or better than what people had before, and premium
growth is now the lowest it's been in several decades.

S

-- 
Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

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#160258

FromStephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org>
Date2016-02-27 15:00 -0600
Message-ID<nat2kl$vqm$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#160177
On 25-Feb-16 04:25, J. Clarke wrote:
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com says...
>> Lots of people who have a serious illness discovered the hard way
>> that their health insurance policies were pretty bad, and they were
>> left with unexpected very high out of pocket costs.  I don't think
>> such policies were "better".  ACA attempts to correct some of
>> that.
> 
> The main "correction" was the eliminate caps on benefits

The "main" change was eliminating the exclusion for preexisting
conditions; eliminating the lifetime payout cap was so far down the list
that most people aren't even aware of it.

> --that could have been handled as easily by simply implementing
> national medical disaster insurance,

What, like the National Flood Insurance Program?  That's been an
unmitigated disaster.

Note that the private sector _could_ have solved either problem itself
via reinsurance or pooling, which are well-known in other parts of the
insurance industry.  But they chose not to.

> that comes into effect at 2 million dollars or so in expenses (which
> was the typical cap on private insurance).  I suspect that there
> would be little resistance to that option but nobody went for it

Notably, the GOP hasn't even mentioned it as a component of their so
called "repeal and replace" strategy, which seems to be all repeal and
no replace.

> --the democrats wanted a government-funded system

Not at the time, but that has gained a lot of steam since then.

> and the voters, being aware that everything nonmilitary that the
> government touches turns to crap, supported them.

... because the GOP hamstrings every govt agency to the point it _has_
to fail, which conveniently matches their agenda of showing how the govt
"can't" do anything well--and how we should spend far more money to
"privatize" things, even though the govt could do the same things far
cheaper and at least as successfully without the GOP's meddling.

>> It certainly seems that criticism of ACA is partisan and comes out
>> of the right wing.
>> 
>> As mentioned, when surveys refer to it as 'ACA', it gets a much
>> better rating than when referred to as 'Obamacare'
> 
> Well, yes, because "ACA" contains a lie--we're all for "affordable 
> care", but that is not something that Obamacare provides.

I disagree, but that's not the point anyway.  Obamacare _is_ the ACA,
yet polls show nearly all Americans like the ACA but half of them hate
Obamacare.  So, the latter's complaints are not about the ACA itself at
all; they're about the Kenyan Muslim Communist Anti-Christ.

It's similar it pretty much every field.  For instance, if you ask
people about universal background checks for gun buyers, something like
91% of Americans (including 87% of NRA members) support it--until you
point out that the Kenyan Muslim Communist Anti-Christ supports that
policy, and then half of the folks polled change their answers.

S

-- 
Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

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#160259

Fromhancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
Date2016-02-27 13:52 -0800
Message-ID<c00f61fc-f8ee-4519-bace-6f07d3809fce@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#160258
On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 4:00:59 PM UTC-5, Stephen Sprunk wrote:

> ... because the GOP hamstrings every govt agency to the point it _has_
> to fail, which conveniently matches their agenda of showing how the govt
> "can't" do anything well--and how we should spend far more money to
> "privatize" things, even though the govt could do the same things far
> cheaper and at least as successfully without the GOP's meddling.

At this point I'll mention again how the GOP sabotaged Amtrak which
impacted service and wasted serious money:

The GOP mandated that Amtrak get high level approval for any capital
repairs, even minor ones.  So, say a switch fails.  Instead of repairing
it, Amtrak must submit a request for approval.  That takes a long time.
In the meantime, Amtrak has to staff repairmen at the switch 24/7 to
work it manually; that is very costly.  Further, manual operation is
cumbersome and slow.

But then the GOP points to stuff like this as "examples" of how Amtrak
is "bad".


> I disagree, but that's not the point anyway.  Obamacare _is_ the ACA,
> yet polls show nearly all Americans like the ACA but half of them hate
> Obamacare.  So, the latter's complaints are not about the ACA itself at
> all; they're about the Kenyan Muslim Communist Anti-Christ.

This is a very important point.  Talk radio and Fox News have done
a great job painting Obama in those terms.  The GOP base really 
fervently believes he is the Kenyan Muslim Communist Anti-Christ.
The GOP has said--since day one--they will do everything and anything
to block every and any Obama proposal; they will not consider its merits.

In reality, Obama's policies have actually been rather centrist.  The
GOP believes he has confiscated all guns in private hands, and he has
done nothing.  They think he's nationalized all industry, and he hasn't.


> It's similar it pretty much every field.  For instance, if you ask
> people about universal background checks for gun buyers, something like
> 91% of Americans (including 87% of NRA members) support it--until you
> point out that the Kenyan Muslim Communist Anti-Christ supports that
> policy, and then half of the folks polled change their answers.

Yep.

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#160260

FromStephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org>
Date2016-02-27 17:16 -0600
Message-ID<nataj1$vfl$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#160258
On 27-Feb-16 15:00, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
> On 25-Feb-16 04:25, J. Clarke wrote:
>> and the voters, being aware that everything nonmilitary that the 
>> government touches turns to crap, supported them.
> 
> ... because the GOP hamstrings every govt agency to the point it
> _has_ to fail, which conveniently matches their agenda of showing how
> the govt "can't" do anything well--and how we should spend far more
> money to "privatize" things, even though the govt could do the same
> things far cheaper and at least as successfully without the GOP's
> meddling.

Perfect timing:
https://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/10/21/1249246/-Tea-Party-logic

S

-- 
Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

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#160261

From"Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net>
Date2016-02-27 18:22 -0600
Message-ID<djestlFgp87U1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#160258
"Stephen Sprunk" wrote:

> It's similar it pretty much every field.  For instance, if you ask
> people about universal background checks for gun buyers, something like
> 91% of Americans (including 87% of NRA members) support it--until you
> point out that the Kenyan Muslim Communist Anti-Christ supports that
> policy, and then half of the folks polled change their answers.

First of all I have no particular interest in gun control. But anyway your 
post piqued my interest.
I had a devil of a time finding those polls but finally, I think I found the 
first poll you describe. There was
another part there was no reason for you to mention, Namely:

"Over half (53%) of non
NRA members and 57%
of NRA members
believe the statement,
“Everyone who wants
to buy a gun has to pass
a background check to
complete the purchase”
is true."

I found it interesting that the general public knew *more* about buying guns 
than the NRA members. I wonder how one explains this?

For some reason I was never able to find the second poll you mentioned where 
people changed their answer when Obama was mentioned.  I'll keep looking ... 
.

http://everytownresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Luntz-poll-07-24-2012.pdf 

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#160263

FromQuadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
Date2016-02-27 17:12 -0800
Message-ID<3cc1a410-b49a-4dd2-813d-e9420dcbb8f6@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#160261
On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 5:22:16 PM UTC-7, Osmium wrote:

> I found it interesting that the general public knew *more* about buying guns 
> than the NRA members. I wonder how one explains this?

The NRA members may have had actual experience of buying guns. And, indeed, one 
does have to pass a background check in order to buy a gun through most usual 
channels, although (at least until recently) gun shows were exempted. And 
private gun sales are exempted still, I suspect.

Of course, there are also _state_ laws, some of which are quite restrictive.

And so the NRA members could have read the question as asking about the usual 
case, or about everyone in their own state instead of in the U.S. as a whole.

John Savard

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