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Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts

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  Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Jeremy Bentham <nobody@anemone.mooo.com> - 2015-12-31 11:34 +0100
    Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts edevils <use_replyto_address@devils.com> - 2015-12-31 12:29 +0100
      Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Mike Swift <mike.swift@yeton.co.uk> - 2015-12-31 11:47 +0000
        Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Jack Ryan <noreply@remailer.cpunk.us> - 2016-01-01 05:40 -0500
          Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston) - 2016-01-01 09:27 -0600
            Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts "Ezekiel" <zeke@nosuchemail.com> - 2016-01-01 10:56 -0500
              Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Slimer <.m@nsn.s> - 2016-01-01 11:25 -0500
                Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts "Ezekiel" <zeke@nosuchemail.com> - 2016-01-01 12:03 -0500
                  Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Slimer <.m@nsn.s> - 2016-01-01 12:33 -0500
                    Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts edevils <use_replyto_address@devils.com> - 2016-01-01 20:00 +0100
                      Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Slimer <.m@nsn.s> - 2016-01-01 14:46 -0500
                    Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-01-02 01:09 +0000
                      Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Slimer <.m@nsn.s> - 2016-01-01 22:10 -0500
                        Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-01-02 03:39 +0000
                          Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Slimer <.m@nsn.s> - 2016-01-01 22:45 -0500
                            Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-01-02 04:44 +0000
                              Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Slimer <.m@nsn.s> - 2016-01-02 11:01 -0500
                                Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts linuxiac <linuxiac@usa.com> - 2016-01-02 16:38 +0000
                                  Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Slimer <.m@nsn.s> - 2016-01-02 12:04 -0500
                                Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-01-03 01:33 +0000
                                  Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts edevils <use_replyto_address@devils.com> - 2016-01-03 11:57 +0100
                                    Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-01-03 21:40 +0000
                                      Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Ed Mullen <ejEMOVER@edmullen.net> - 2016-01-03 23:22 -0500
                                        Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2016-01-04 04:54 +0000
                                          Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201601.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2016-01-05 09:05 +0100
                                        Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2016-01-04 19:06 +0000
                                        Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2016-01-04 15:18 -0600
                                      Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Anonymous <anonymous@hoi-polloi.org> - 2016-01-04 21:57 +0100
                                Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts "PAS" <ntotrr@optonline.net> - 2016-01-04 09:46 -0500
                  Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Anonymous <anonymous@hoi-polloi.org> - 2016-01-02 09:41 +0100
                    Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston) - 2016-01-02 09:44 -0600
                      Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts "Rolf" <rolflxxx@somecompany.com> - 2016-01-02 23:34 +0100
                Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Anonymous <anonymous@foto.nl1.torservers.net> - 2016-01-02 04:14 -0500
              Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston) - 2016-01-01 18:02 -0600
                Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts "Ezekiel" <zeke@nosuchemail.com> - 2016-01-02 16:41 -0500
              Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts "Anonymous Remailer (austria)" <mixmaster@remailer.privacy.at> - 2016-01-02 12:17 +0100
            Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Jack Ryan <noreply@remailer.cpunk.us> - 2016-01-02 02:52 -0500
              Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Shadow <Sh@dow.br> - 2016-01-02 07:41 -0200
                Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Jack Ryan <noreply@remailer.cpunk.us> - 2016-01-02 16:15 -0500
      Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2016-01-01 12:30 +0000
    Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Nobody <not@home.anymore> - 2015-12-31 20:56 +0000
      Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2016-01-01 13:00 +0000
    Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Jack Ryan <noreply@remailer.cpunk.us> - 2016-01-01 20:22 -0500
    Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Shadow <Sh@dow.br> - 2016-01-02 07:38 -0200
      Re: Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts Charlie <cdknospam@msn.com> - 2016-01-06 21:12 -0500

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#5621 — Microsoft will start warning users if it detects government hacking attempts

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Microsoft experts concluded several 
years ago that Chinese authorities had hacked into more than a 
thousand Hotmail email accounts, targeting international leaders 
of China’s Tibetan and Uighur minorities in particular – but it 
decided not to tell the victims, allowing the hackers to 
continue their campaign, according to former employees of the 
company.

On Wednesday, after a series of requests for comment from 
Reuters, Microsoft said it will change its policy and in the 
future tell its email customers when it suspects there has been 
a government hacking attempt.

The company also confirmed for the first time that it had not 
called, emailed or otherwise told the Hotmail users that their 
electronic correspondence had been collected. The company 
declined to say what role the exposure of the Hotmail campaign 
played in its decision to make the policy shift.

The first public signal of the attacks came in May 2011, though 
no direct link was immediately made with the Chinese 
authorities. That's when security firm Trend Micro Inc announced 
it had found an email sent to someone in Taiwan that contained a 
miniature computer program.

The program took advantage of a previously undetected flaw in 
Microsoft’s own web pages to direct Hotmail and other free 
Microsoft email services to secretly forward copies of all of a 
recipient’s incoming mail to an account controlled by the 
attacker.

Trend Micro found more than a thousand victims, and Microsoft 
patched the vulnerability before the security company announced 
its findings publicly.

Microsoft also launched its own investigation that year, finding 
that some interception had begun in July 2009 and had 
compromised the emails of top Uighur and Tibetan leaders in 
multiple countries, as well as Japanese and African diplomats, 
human rights lawyers and others in sensitive positions inside 
China, two former Microsoft employees said. They spoke 
separately and on the condition that they not be identified.

Some of the attacks had come from a Chinese network known as 
AS4808, which has been associated with major spying campaigns, 
including a 2011 attack on EMC Corp's security division RSA that 
U.S. intelligence officals publicly attributed to China. To see 
the report click here.

Microsoft officials did not dispute that most of the attacks 
came from China, but said some came from elsewhere. They did not 
give further detail.

"We weighed several factors in responding to this incident, 
including the fact that neither Microsoft nor the U.S. 
government were able to identify the source of the attacks, 
which did not come from any single country," the company said.

"We also considered the potential impact on any subsequent 
investigation and ongoing measures we were taking to prevent 
potential future attacks."

In announcing the new policy, Microsoft said: "As the threat 
landscape has evolved our approach has too, and we’ll now go 
beyond notification and guidance to specify if we reasonably 
believe the attacker is `state-sponsored.'"

Requests for comment from China’s Foreign Ministry and the 
Cyberspace Administration of China were not immediately 
answered. The Chinese government routinely issues strong denials 
of involvement in all hacking activities.

Internal debate
After a vigorous internal debate in 2011 that reached 
Microsoft’s top security official, Scott Charney, and its then-
general counsel and now president, Brad Smith, the company 
decided not to alert the users clearly that anything was amiss, 
the former employees said. Instead, it simply forced users to 
pick new passwords without disclosing the reason.

The employees said it was likely the hackers by then had 
footholds in some of the victims' machines and therefore saw 
those new passwords being entered.

One of the reasons Microsoft executives gave internally in 2011 
for not issuing explicit warnings was their fear of angering the 
Chinese government, two people familiar with the discussions 
said.

Microsoft’s statement did not address the specific positions 
advocated by Smith and Charney. A person familiar with the 
executives’ thinking said that fear of Chinese reprisals did 
play a role given the company's concerns about the potential 
impact on customers.

Microsoft said the company had believed the password resets 
would be the fastest way to restore security to the accounts.

"Our primary concern was ensuring that our customers quickly 
took practical steps to secure their accounts, including by 
forcing a password reset," the statement said.

It is unclear what happened to the email users and their 
correspondents as a result of Microsoft's failure to alert them 
to the suspected government hacking. But some of those affected 
said they were now deeply worried about the risks, especially 
for those inside China.

“The Internet service providers and the email providers have an 
ethical and a moral responsibility to let the users know that 
they are being hacked,” said Seyit Tumturk, vice president of 
the World Uyghur Congress, whose account was among those 
compromised. “We are talking in people’s lives here.”

Hundreds of lives
Unrest in Xinjiang, the Chinese region bordering Kazakhstan that 
is home to many Uighurs, has cost hundreds of lives in recent 
years. Beijing blames Islamist militants, while human rights 
groups say harsh controls on the religion and culture of the 
Uighurs have led to the violence.

Until Wednesday, Microsoft had rejected the idea of explicit 
warnings about state-sponsored hacking, such as those Google Inc 
began in 2012, the former employees said. In the 2011 case, the 
company also opted not to send a more generic warning about 
hacking.

Yahoo and Facebook have been issuing such warnings for several 
years, former employees of those companies told Reuters, 
including when the principal suspect was a government. Both 
companies, along with Twitter Inc, announced in recent months 
that they would follow Google’s lead and explicitly notify users 
about suspected state-sponsored hacking.

Google said on average it now issues tens of thousands of 
warnings about targeting every few months, and that recipients 
often move to improve their security with two-factor 
authentication and other steps.

Reuters interviewed five of the Hotmail hacking victims that 
were identified as part of Microsoft’s investigation: two Uighur 
leaders, a senior Tibetan figure and two people in the media 
dealing with matters of interest to Chinese officials.

Most recalled the password resets, but none took the procedure 
as an indication that anyone had read his or her email, let 
alone that it may have been accessed by the Chinese government. 
“I thought it was normal, everybody gets it,” said one of the 
men, a Uighur émigré now living in Europe who asked not to be 
named because he left family behind in China.

Another victim identified by Microsoft’s internal team was 
Tseten Norbu of Nepal, a former president of the Tibetan Youth 
Congress, one of the more outspoken members of a community that 
has frequently clashed with Chinese officials. Another Microsoft-
identified victim was Tumturk, the World Uyghur Congress vice 
president who lives in Turkey.

Microsoft investigators also saw that emails had been forwarded 
from the account of Peter Hickman, a former American diplomatic 
officer who arranged high-profile speeches by international 
figures at the National Press Club in Washington for many years.

Hickman said he used his Hotmail account on Press Club computers 
to correspond with people, including the staff for the Tibetan 
government in exile, whose leader Lobsang Sangay spoke at the 
club in 2011; Tumturk's World Uyghur Congress, whose then-
president Rebiya Kadeer spoke in 2009; and the president of 
Taiwan, who spoke by video link-up in 2007.

Hickman said he didn’t recall the password reset. He said he 
never suspected anything was wrong with the account, which he 
continues to use.

(Additional reporting by Humeyra Pamuk in Istanbul and Sui-Lee 
Wee in Beijing. Editing by Jonathan Weber.)

http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-warns-users-if-
government-hacks-accounts-2015-12

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#5622

On 31/12/2015 11:34, Jeremy Bentham wrote:
> SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Microsoft experts concluded several
> years ago that Chinese authorities had hacked into more than a
> thousand Hotmail email accounts, targeting international leaders
> of China’s Tibetan and Uighur minorities in particular – but it
> decided not to tell the victims, allowing the hackers to
> continue their campaign, according to former employees of the
> company.
>
> On Wednesday, after a series of requests for comment from
> Reuters, Microsoft said it will change its policy and in the
> future tell its email customers when it suspects there has been
> a government hacking attempt.
...snip...

Any government? ;)


> http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-warns-users-if-
> government-hacks-accounts-2015-12

An interesting read!

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#5623

In article <n633e9$om8$1@dont-email.me>, edevils 
<use_replyto_address@devils.com> writes
>> SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Microsoft experts concluded several
>> years ago that Chinese authorities had hacked into more than a
>> thousand Hotmail email accounts, targeting international leaders
>> of China’s Tibetan and Uighur minorities in particular – but it
>> decided not to tell the victims, allowing the hackers to
>> continue their campaign, according to former employees of the
>> company.
>>
>> On Wednesday, after a series of requests for comment from
>> Reuters, Microsoft said it will change its policy and in the
>> future tell its email customers when it suspects there has been
>> a government hacking attempt.
>...snip...
>
>Any government? ;)
>
>
>> http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-warns-users-if-
>> government-hacks-accounts-2015-12

Oh the irony.

Mike

-- 
Michael Swift      We do not regard Englishmen as foreigners.
Kirkheaton          We look on them only as rather mad Norwegians.
Yorkshire             Halvard Lange

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#5629

In article <aGZUggA6WRhWFw5Q@ntlworld.com>
Mike Swift <mike.swift@yeton.co.uk> wrote:
>
> In article <n633e9$om8$1@dont-email.me>, edevils
> <use_replyto_address@devils.com> writes
> >> SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Microsoft experts concluded several
> >> years ago that Chinese authorities had hacked into more than a
> >> thousand Hotmail email accounts, targeting international leaders
> >> of China’s Tibetan and Uighur minorities in particular – but it
> >> decided not to tell the victims, allowing the hackers to
> >> continue their campaign, according to former employees of the
> >> company.
> >>
> >> On Wednesday, after a series of requests for comment from
> >> Reuters, Microsoft said it will change its policy and in the
> >> future tell its email customers when it suspects there has been
> >> a government hacking attempt.
> >...snip...
> >
> >Any government? ;)
> >
> >
> >> http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-warns-users-if-
> >> government-hacks-accounts-2015-12
>
> Oh the irony.

It's all spelled out in Hillary Clinton's linux email server.

You know, those highly secure linux email servers that the 
Chinese hacked and were reading the whole time she had it in 
operation.

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#5635

In article <980f9462a82a86eed3c1a1e355a5eda2@remailer.cpunk.us>,
Jack Ryan  <noreply@remailer.cpunk.us> wrote:
 [ ... ]

>You know, those highly secure linux email servers that the 
>Chinese hacked and were reading the whole time she had it in 
>operation.

I believe Clintons' server was running Exchange. I've had to support
Exchange in the past, it's a horrible resource hog that is a major
headache. No way to back up or restore an individual mailbox, when it
glitches, trouble shooting is difficult.

I've made no effort to keep my Exchange certification current. I do not
recommend it; almost anything will be easier to use.


  Gary

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#5636

"Gary Heston" <gheston@hiwaay.net> wrote in message 
news:VcidnVxWddRnBxvLnZ2dnUU7-dOdnZ2d@posted.hiwaay2...
> In article <980f9462a82a86eed3c1a1e355a5eda2@remailer.cpunk.us>,
> Jack Ryan  <noreply@remailer.cpunk.us> wrote:
> [ ... ]
>
>>You know, those highly secure linux email servers that the
>>Chinese hacked and were reading the whole time she had it in
>>operation.
>
> I believe Clintons' server was running Exchange. I've had to support
> Exchange in the past, it's a horrible resource hog that is a major
> headache. No way to back up or restore an individual mailbox, when it
> glitches, trouble shooting is difficult.
>
> I've made no effort to keep my Exchange certification current. I do not
> recommend it; almost anything will be easier to use.
>

The alternative is IBM Notes (ie Lotus Notes). Notes certainly isn't a model 
of speed and efficiency.

For companies that need this sort of software there aren't many choices 
unless they want to try and roll their own.

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#5638

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 2016-01-01 10:56 AM, Ezekiel wrote:
> "Gary Heston" <gheston@hiwaay.net> wrote in message 
> news:VcidnVxWddRnBxvLnZ2dnUU7-dOdnZ2d@posted.hiwaay2...
>> In article <980f9462a82a86eed3c1a1e355a5eda2@remailer.cpunk.us>, 
>> Jack Ryan  <noreply@remailer.cpunk.us> wrote: [ ... ]
>> 
>>> You know, those highly secure linux email servers that the 
>>> Chinese hacked and were reading the whole time she had it in 
>>> operation.
>> 
>> I believe Clintons' server was running Exchange. I've had to
>> support Exchange in the past, it's a horrible resource hog that
>> is a major headache. No way to back up or restore an individual
>> mailbox, when it glitches, trouble shooting is difficult.
>> 
>> I've made no effort to keep my Exchange certification current. I
>> do not recommend it; almost anything will be easier to use.
>> 
> 
> The alternative is IBM Notes (ie Lotus Notes). Notes certainly
> isn't a model of speed and efficiency.

That's what we used at my last tech job (in 2004). I can't remember
one time during which e-mail was speedy. In addition to that, the
clients they asked us to use were unintuitive and butt-ugly.

> For companies that need this sort of software there aren't many
> choices unless they want to try and roll their own.

Exchange seems to be the most capable and that's what sells it.

- -- 
Slimer
EFF & OpenMedia member / IFAW, Mozilla & PETA supporter
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#5639

"Slimer" <.m@nsn.s> wrote in message news:n6694l$o20$1@dont-email.me...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> On 2016-01-01 10:56 AM, Ezekiel wrote:
>> "Gary Heston" <gheston@hiwaay.net> wrote in message
>> news:VcidnVxWddRnBxvLnZ2dnUU7-dOdnZ2d@posted.hiwaay2...
>>> In article <980f9462a82a86eed3c1a1e355a5eda2@remailer.cpunk.us>,
>>> Jack Ryan  <noreply@remailer.cpunk.us> wrote: [ ... ]
>>>
>>>> You know, those highly secure linux email servers that the
>>>> Chinese hacked and were reading the whole time she had it in
>>>> operation.
>>>
>>> I believe Clintons' server was running Exchange. I've had to
>>> support Exchange in the past, it's a horrible resource hog that
>>> is a major headache. No way to back up or restore an individual
>>> mailbox, when it glitches, trouble shooting is difficult.
>>>
>>> I've made no effort to keep my Exchange certification current. I
>>> do not recommend it; almost anything will be easier to use.
>>>
>>
>> The alternative is IBM Notes (ie Lotus Notes). Notes certainly
>> isn't a model of speed and efficiency.
>
> That's what we used at my last tech job (in 2004). I can't remember
> one time during which e-mail was speedy. In addition to that, the
> clients they asked us to use were unintuitive and butt-ugly.
>
>> For companies that need this sort of software there aren't many
>> choices unless they want to try and roll their own.
>
> Exchange seems to be the most capable and that's what sells it.
>

A telling hint is what you see in the "auto-complete" in the Google search 
bar. Start searching for Exchange and Notes and it starts to auto-complete 
to some sort of "migration tool from Notes to Exchange"

I've never used Exchange. The last 3 employers were all Lotus Notes. Notes 
basically sucks but it gets the job done.

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#5640

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Hash: SHA256

On 2016-01-01 12:03 PM, Ezekiel wrote:
> "Slimer" <.m@nsn.s> wrote in message
> news:n6694l$o20$1@dont-email.me...
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
>> 
>> On 2016-01-01 10:56 AM, Ezekiel wrote:
>>> "Gary Heston" <gheston@hiwaay.net> wrote in message 
>>> news:VcidnVxWddRnBxvLnZ2dnUU7-dOdnZ2d@posted.hiwaay2...
>>>> In article
>>>> <980f9462a82a86eed3c1a1e355a5eda2@remailer.cpunk.us>, Jack
>>>> Ryan  <noreply@remailer.cpunk.us> wrote: [ ... ]
>>>> 
>>>>> You know, those highly secure linux email servers that the 
>>>>> Chinese hacked and were reading the whole time she had it
>>>>> in operation.
>>>> 
>>>> I believe Clintons' server was running Exchange. I've had to 
>>>> support Exchange in the past, it's a horrible resource hog
>>>> that is a major headache. No way to back up or restore an
>>>> individual mailbox, when it glitches, trouble shooting is
>>>> difficult.
>>>> 
>>>> I've made no effort to keep my Exchange certification
>>>> current. I do not recommend it; almost anything will be
>>>> easier to use.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> The alternative is IBM Notes (ie Lotus Notes). Notes certainly 
>>> isn't a model of speed and efficiency.
>> 
>> That's what we used at my last tech job (in 2004). I can't
>> remember one time during which e-mail was speedy. In addition to
>> that, the clients they asked us to use were unintuitive and
>> butt-ugly.
>> 
>>> For companies that need this sort of software there aren't
>>> many choices unless they want to try and roll their own.
>> 
>> Exchange seems to be the most capable and that's what sells it.
>> 
> 
> A telling hint is what you see in the "auto-complete" in the Google
> search bar. Start searching for Exchange and Notes and it starts to
> auto-complete to some sort of "migration tool from Notes to
> Exchange"
> 
> I've never used Exchange. The last 3 employers were all Lotus
> Notes. Notes basically sucks but it gets the job done.

It gets the job done is not what you want to hear if quality is your
principal concern. In the midst of getting the job done, Notes
repeatedly becomes slow and unresponsive to the point that it rejects
whatever you send at it or keeps it in limbo. That is nowhere near
what I would consider to be efficiency.

I'm curious though, if neither Exchange nor Notes is of interest, what
would the Linux advocates suggest for similar functionality?


- -- 
Slimer
EFF & OpenMedia member / IFAW, Mozilla & PETA supporter

"They're not problems. They're tired old FUD. Slimer's attack on nvidia
drivers in particular fly in the face of very well established facts."
- - GNU/Linux "advocate" JEDIDIAH, denying that there are problems with
NVIDIA's driver in the operating system.
Message-ID: <slrnn8b0ak.m7f.jedi@nomad.mishnet>
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#5641

On 01/01/2016 18:33, Slimer wrote:
...
> I'm curious though, if neither Exchange nor Notes is of interest,
...snip...

How about the cloud alternatives, Google Apps for Business and Office365?

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#5642

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On 2016-01-01 2:00 PM, edevils wrote:
> On 01/01/2016 18:33, Slimer wrote: ...
>> I'm curious though, if neither Exchange nor Notes is of 
>> interest,
> ...snip...
> 
> How about the cloud alternatives, Google Apps for Business and 
> Office365?

Both give controls to Microsoft and Google. My school board has chosen
Office 365 and I assume that it has done wonders for everyone but it
doesn't change the fact that the servers no longer belong to US but
rather to THEM.

- -- 
Slimer
EFF & OpenMedia member / IFAW, Mozilla & PETA supporter

"They're not problems. They're tired old FUD. Slimer's attack on nvidia
drivers in particular fly in the face of very well established facts."
- - GNU/Linux "advocate" JEDIDIAH, denying that there are problems with
NVIDIA's driver in the operating system.
Message-ID: <slrnn8b0ak.m7f.jedi@nomad.mishnet>
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#5644

On 2016-01-01, Slimer <> wrote:
> I'm curious though, if neither Exchange nor Notes is of interest, what
> would the Linux advocates suggest for similar functionality?

Depends on what you really need. I use postfix and dovecot on my own
mail servers, but I don't need groupware features such as calendar or
contact management.  There are some groupware products that run on Linux
and BSD platforms but I haven't tried them.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

  NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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#5646

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On 2016-01-01 8:09 PM, Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2016-01-01, Slimer <> wrote:
>> I'm curious though, if neither Exchange nor Notes is of interest,
>> what would the Linux advocates suggest for similar
>> functionality?
> 
> Depends on what you really need. I use postfix and dovecot on my
> own mail servers, but I don't need groupware features such as
> calendar or contact management.  There are some groupware products
> that run on Linux and BSD platforms but I haven't tried them.

Thank you for your input. I'm at a loss as to what the free software
alternative to the complete package would be but I would be curious to
know so as to suggest it to the tech department at work if ever they
decide to move away from Microsoft's solution.


- -- 
Slimer
EFF & OpenMedia member / IFAW, Mozilla & PETA supporter

"They're not problems. They're tired old FUD. Slimer's attack on nvidia
drivers in particular fly in the face of very well established facts."
- - GNU/Linux "advocate" JEDIDIAH, denying that there are problems with
NVIDIA's driver in the operating system.
Message-ID: <slrnn8b0ak.m7f.jedi@nomad.mishnet>
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#5647

On 2016-01-02, Slimer <> wrote:
> Thank you for your input. I'm at a loss as to what the free software
> alternative to the complete package would be but I would be curious to
> know so as to suggest it to the tech department at work if ever they
> decide to move away from Microsoft's solution.

There's Zimbra but I have not tried it myself, and the product has
bounced around between owners the last several years. Zimbra has both
free and commercial versions. Last time I saw someone using Comcast's
web mail it was Zimbra-based.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

  NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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#5648

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On 2016-01-01 10:39 PM, Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2016-01-02, Slimer <> wrote:
>> Thank you for your input. I'm at a loss as to what the free
>> software alternative to the complete package would be but I would
>> be curious to know so as to suggest it to the tech department at
>> work if ever they decide to move away from Microsoft's solution.
> 
> There's Zimbra but I have not tried it myself, and the product has 
> bounced around between owners the last several years. Zimbra has
> both free and commercial versions. Last time I saw someone using
> Comcast's web mail it was Zimbra-based.

Thank you for that, it looks exactly like the complete solution I
could propose. By the way, I agree wholeheartedly with every statement
you make in your signature. :)


- -- 
Slimer
EFF & OpenMedia member / IFAW, Mozilla & PETA supporter
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#5649

On 2016-01-02, Slimer <> wrote:
> Thank you for that, it looks exactly like the complete solution I
> could propose. By the way, I agree wholeheartedly with every statement
> you make in your signature. :)

As mentioned I know of Zimbra but have no direct experience with it. If
you try it out give us all some feedback.

As far as the sig, thanks - in a perfect world by now we would be
discussing methods of execution for the miscreants in question. (We might
even need some new tech, like maybe an electric couch rather than electric
chair.) It will never happen of course, but the nonsense will continue
until the consequences are at least of the same magnitude as the crime.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

  NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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#5657

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On 2016-01-01 11:44 PM, Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2016-01-02, Slimer <> wrote:
>> Thank you for that, it looks exactly like the complete solution
>> I could propose. By the way, I agree wholeheartedly with every
>> statement you make in your signature. :)
> 
> As mentioned I know of Zimbra but have no direct experience with
> it. If you try it out give us all some feedback.
> 
> As far as the sig, thanks - in a perfect world by now we would be 
> discussing methods of execution for the miscreants in question. (We
> might even need some new tech, like maybe an electric couch rather
> than electric chair.) It will never happen of course, but the
> nonsense will continue until the consequences are at least of the
> same magnitude as the crime.

The biggest issue I have with the American government's surveillance
(as well as that of its allies in the Five Eyes Alliance), is the fact
that the citizens themselves don't seem to care. If you bring up the
topic, the response is always "I have nothing to hide." I always ask
them whether they would be comfortable going on a date with someone
and having a government employee chaperone the entire thing as well as
the inevitable sex that follows. They wouldn't, and yet they are
alright with the idea that the entire government, without reason or
warrant, can look up what they do on the Internet at any time of the
day. The government knows what sites they visit, who their friends are
and even what kind of sexual activity they're most interested in but
somehow that doesn't bother them until you use real-world examples.

For my part, all of my communications are now encrypted other than
Usenet. Once Facebook removed an article I shared (and essentially
censored it) I knew that there was no hope for that social network
regardless of what they say. Twitter is doing the exact same by
"defending free speech through the censoring of hateful statements."


- -- 
Slimer
EFF & OpenMedia member / IFAW, Mozilla & PETA supporter
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#5658

On Sat, 02 Jan 2016 11:01:19 -0500, Slimer wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
> 
> On 2016-01-01 11:44 PM, Roger Blake wrote:
>> On 2016-01-02, Slimer <> wrote:
>>> Thank you for that, it looks exactly like the complete solution I
>>> could propose. By the way, I agree wholeheartedly with every statement
>>> you make in your signature. :)
>> 
>> As mentioned I know of Zimbra but have no direct experience with it. If
>> you try it out give us all some feedback.
>> 
>> As far as the sig, thanks - in a perfect world by now we would be
>> discussing methods of execution for the miscreants in question. (We
>> might even need some new tech, like maybe an electric couch rather than
>> electric chair.) It will never happen of course, but the nonsense will
>> continue until the consequences are at least of the same magnitude as
>> the crime.
> 
> The biggest issue I have with the American government's surveillance (as
> well as that of its allies in the Five Eyes Alliance), is the fact that
> the citizens themselves don't seem to care. If you bring up the topic,
> the response is always "I have nothing to hide." I always ask them
> whether they would be comfortable going on a date with someone and
> having a government employee chaperone the entire thing as well as the
> inevitable sex that follows. They wouldn't, and yet they are alright
> with the idea that the entire government, without reason or warrant, can
> look up what they do on the Internet at any time of the day. The
> government knows what sites they visit, who their friends are and even
> what kind of sexual activity they're most interested in but somehow that
> doesn't bother them until you use real-world examples.
> 
> For my part, all of my communications are now encrypted other than
> Usenet. Once Facebook removed an article I shared (and essentially
> censored it) I knew that there was no hope for that social network
> regardless of what they say. Twitter is doing the exact same by
> "defending free speech through the censoring of hateful statements."

It's been a slow erosion of citizen's rights that has gotten the US to 
where it is now.  It won't be long before unlawful search and seizure 
becomes the norm. 

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#5659

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On 2016-01-02 11:38 AM, linuxiac wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Jan 2016 11:01:19 -0500, Slimer wrote:
> 
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
>> 
>> On 2016-01-01 11:44 PM, Roger Blake wrote:
>>> On 2016-01-02, Slimer <> wrote:
>>>> Thank you for that, it looks exactly like the complete
>>>> solution I could propose. By the way, I agree wholeheartedly
>>>> with every statement you make in your signature. :)
>>> 
>>> As mentioned I know of Zimbra but have no direct experience
>>> with it. If you try it out give us all some feedback.
>>> 
>>> As far as the sig, thanks - in a perfect world by now we would
>>> be discussing methods of execution for the miscreants in
>>> question. (We might even need some new tech, like maybe an
>>> electric couch rather than electric chair.) It will never
>>> happen of course, but the nonsense will continue until the
>>> consequences are at least of the same magnitude as the crime.
>> 
>> The biggest issue I have with the American government's
>> surveillance (as well as that of its allies in the Five Eyes
>> Alliance), is the fact that the citizens themselves don't seem to
>> care. If you bring up the topic, the response is always "I have
>> nothing to hide." I always ask them whether they would be
>> comfortable going on a date with someone and having a government
>> employee chaperone the entire thing as well as the inevitable sex
>> that follows. They wouldn't, and yet they are alright with the
>> idea that the entire government, without reason or warrant, can 
>> look up what they do on the Internet at any time of the day. The 
>> government knows what sites they visit, who their friends are and
>> even what kind of sexual activity they're most interested in but
>> somehow that doesn't bother them until you use real-world
>> examples.
>> 
>> For my part, all of my communications are now encrypted other
>> than Usenet. Once Facebook removed an article I shared (and
>> essentially censored it) I knew that there was no hope for that
>> social network regardless of what they say. Twitter is doing the
>> exact same by "defending free speech through the censoring of
>> hateful statements."
> 
> It's been a slow erosion of citizen's rights that has gotten the US
> to where it is now.  It won't be long before unlawful search and
> seizure becomes the norm.

People have already forgotten that they are protected against unlawful
search and seizure because they have no idea what the Constitution is
and what it says. I'm not an American citizen myself but I know that
the Fourth Amendment requires law enforcement or any kind of
"authority" to get a warrant to search your property. Despite the fact
that the Amendment and the Constitution were both written way before
the Internet existed, what it says should apply to telephone and
Internet communications as well. If they believe that someone is doing
something against the people of the United States or the government,
they have the right to make a case to a court and get a warrant.
Absent that, they have no right to spy on communications ESPECIALLY
SINCE they have already demonstrated that they are entirely
incompetent about doing anything even when they are flooded with
warnings that something is about to take place (San Bernardino being a
notable example).

Existing law and general incompetence should render surveillance and
the NSA in general illegal.


- -- 
Slimer
EFF & OpenMedia member / IFAW, Mozilla & PETA supporter
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#5663

On 2016-01-02, Slimer <> wrote:
> The biggest issue I have with the American government's surveillance
> (as well as that of its allies in the Five Eyes Alliance), is the fact
> that the citizens themselves don't seem to care.

For the most part they do not. The "I have nothing to hide" mentality
is pervasive -- and destructive of freedom and privacy.  It seems all but
impossible to get any traction on the idea of actually pressing criminal
charges against the perps and hauling them into court. Even if one
disagrees with the death penalty, I would say at the very least that
long prison sentences would be appropriate.

Aside from a few "malcontents" nobody seems to care though. Without public
outrage the politicians and laughably/tragically misnamed Department of
"Justice" have no reason to take any serious action.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

  NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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