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Doesn't Hibernate use NO power?

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  Doesn't Hibernate use NO power?  micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-01-03 13:26 -0500
    Re: Doesn't Hibernate use NO power? T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2025-01-03 11:30 -0800
    Re: Doesn't Hibernate use NO power? Shinji Ikari <shinji@gmx.net> - 2025-01-03 20:37 +0100
    Re: Doesn't Hibernate use NO power? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-03 15:08 -0500
      Re: Doesn't Hibernate use NO power? Hank Rogers <Hank@nospam.invalid> - 2025-01-03 18:12 -0600
    Re: Doesn't Hibernate use NO power? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-03 20:29 +0000
      Re: Doesn't Hibernate use NO power? MikeS <MikeS@fred.com> - 2025-01-04 10:28 +0000
        Re: Doesn't Hibernate use NO power? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-04 07:15 -0500
          Re: Doesn't Hibernate use NO power? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-04 16:21 +0000
        Re: Doesn't Hibernate use NO power? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-04 16:28 +0000
          Re: Doesn't Hibernate use NO power? MikeS <MikeS@fred.com> - 2025-01-04 18:40 +0000
      Re: Doesn't Hibernate use NO power? Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> - 2025-01-16 12:36 +0200
        Re: Doesn't Hibernate use NO power? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-16 11:23 +0000
          Re: Doesn't Hibernate use NO power? Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> - 2025-01-23 11:32 +0200
    Re: Doesn't Hibernate use NO power? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2025-01-10 12:21 +0800
      Re: Doesn't Hibernate use NO power? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2025-01-10 12:22 +0800
        Re: Doesn't Hibernate use NO power? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-10 16:41 +0000

#181108 — Doesn't Hibernate use NO power?

I read in an answers.microsoft.com page that Hibernate uses less power
than Sleep.   And another page said something similar. 

Doesn't Hibernate use NO power?   After it finishes copying the RAM to
the HDD, isn't it just like OFF?  In what way could it use power?


As an aside, why does one have to enable Hibernate?  The other options,
including sleep, restart are implemented by default. Is Hibernate to
dangerous for a newbie to handle?

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#181109

On 1/3/25 10:26, micky wrote:
> I read in an answers.microsoft.com page that Hibernate uses less power
> than Sleep.   And another page said something similar.
> 
> Doesn't Hibernate use NO power?   After it finishes copying the RAM to
> the HDD, isn't it just like OFF?  In what way could it use power?
> 
> 
> As an aside, why does one have to enable Hibernate?  The other options,
> including sleep, restart are implemented by default. Is Hibernate to
> dangerous for a newbie to handle?


It has to use a little bit of power.  No power would be pulling the
plug out the back of your computer.   Basically what it is doing
is stopping the clock to the processor.  It is a bit more complicated 
than that, but basically it.

It is like your VCR.  I can't record in the night if it is completely 
powered off.

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#181110

Hello.

micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> schrieb

>I read in an answers.microsoft.com page that Hibernate uses less power
>than Sleep.   And another page said something similar. 
>Doesn't Hibernate use NO power?   After it finishes copying the RAM to
>the HDD, isn't it just like OFF?  In what way could it use power?

Modern Computers are capeable to wake from keyboard, wake from
mousemovement, Powerbutton, even wake from action of specific PCIe
Cards.
All of this needs power, to detect this action. 
Since ATX a normale PC, which was switched off by software
(Hibernation or even shutdown) does use power. That is one of the
reasons you have to unplug computers, when working inside of them. At
least the 5V are active.

Exception 1: when you flip the switch on the psu oder pull the cord
from the socket, then it really is off. (this december I build a
gaming pc for a friend and even when the system is shutdown, the ARGB
fans were illuminated (took me some time to find this option in the
UEFI to shut even this off).

Exception 2: Notebooks need to conserve power. Most of them can really
hibernate or shutdown without power consumption.
(But even some Notebooks have the option to activate one oder some USB
Ports so they can wake up or loas a smartphone or so.)

The days of PC who really do not use power, when shut down, is long
over (since we have ATX psu and similar "inventions").

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#181111

On Fri, 1/3/2025 1:26 PM, micky wrote:
> I read in an answers.microsoft.com page that Hibernate uses less power
> than Sleep.   And another page said something similar. 
> 
> Doesn't Hibernate use NO power?   After it finishes copying the RAM to
> the HDD, isn't it just like OFF?  In what way could it use power?
> 
> 
> As an aside, why does one have to enable Hibernate?  The other options,
> including sleep, restart are implemented by default. Is Hibernate to
> dangerous for a newbie to handle?
> 

After Hibernate fills disk, is Soft-Off.

The fans stop. The main DC rails (3/5/12) are off.

But, the +5VSB standby supply still runs. It powers the
Southbridge skeletal features and as Shingi points out,
there are Wake functions that require power. PME
(Power Management Event) must be ready to roll.

Using your Kill-O-Watt meter, and with minimal Wake functions
enabled, you might find a reading of 1 watt and 7VA. This means
the Power Factor PF is low, like 0.14 maybe. This means the power
is reactive, and the reactive power is not "billed".

You are being billed for the 1 watt power number, not the 7VA.

If you have a computer with EuP, then the power could be lower.
But apparently there's been some passive-resistance from the
industry to that, so don't expect it to work to reduce power.

I had hoped at one time, that the active PFC on the supply would
still be engaged, when the +5VSB SMPS is running, but that does
not seem to be the case. On the other hand, I haven't measured
all the new supplies here, and it's possible one of my candidates
will have a lower watt power when in idle state. Not that it matters.
It's just more satisfying, when hardware you paid for (APFC), actually
works.

The power company wants APFC to run, when the main rails are running
and significant reactive power might be involved. Having a bad power
factor in Soft-Off, they likely don't care about that, but the thing
is, the APFC could be left running in both S0 and S5. Maybe it has
poor responses, when the power is only 1 watt of loading, and it
might be "unstable" and has to be disabled.

Even LED lightbulbs don't have APFC, and the power factor started
off years ago as "better", but the modern $2 bulb has a poor PF.
The PF on LED is as bad as a CFL bulb now.

   Paul

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#181113

Paul wrote:
> On Fri, 1/3/2025 1:26 PM, micky wrote:
>> I read in an answers.microsoft.com page that Hibernate uses less power
>> than Sleep.   And another page said something similar.
>>
>> Doesn't Hibernate use NO power?   After it finishes copying the RAM to
>> the HDD, isn't it just like OFF?  In what way could it use power?
>>
>>
>> As an aside, why does one have to enable Hibernate?  The other options,
>> including sleep, restart are implemented by default. Is Hibernate to
>> dangerous for a newbie to handle?
>>
> 
> After Hibernate fills disk, is Soft-Off.
> 
> The fans stop. The main DC rails (3/5/12) are off.
> 
> But, the +5VSB standby supply still runs. It powers the
> Southbridge skeletal features and as Shingi points out,
> there are Wake functions that require power. PME
> (Power Management Event) must be ready to roll.
> 
> Using your Kill-O-Watt meter, and with minimal Wake functions
> enabled, you might find a reading of 1 watt and 7VA. This means
> the Power Factor PF is low, like 0.14 maybe. This means the power
> is reactive, and the reactive power is not "billed".
> 
> You are being billed for the 1 watt power number, not the 7VA.
> 
> If you have a computer with EuP, then the power could be lower.
> But apparently there's been some passive-resistance from the
> industry to that, so don't expect it to work to reduce power.
> 
> I had hoped at one time, that the active PFC on the supply would
> still be engaged, when the +5VSB SMPS is running, but that does
> not seem to be the case. On the other hand, I haven't measured
> all the new supplies here, and it's possible one of my candidates
> will have a lower watt power when in idle state. Not that it matters.
> It's just more satisfying, when hardware you paid for (APFC), actually
> works.
> 
> The power company wants APFC to run, when the main rails are running
> and significant reactive power might be involved. Having a bad power
> factor in Soft-Off, they likely don't care about that, but the thing
> is, the APFC could be left running in both S0 and S5. Maybe it has
> poor responses, when the power is only 1 watt of loading, and it
> might be "unstable" and has to be disabled.
> 
> Even LED lightbulbs don't have APFC, and the power factor started
> off years ago as "better", but the modern $2 bulb has a poor PF.
> The PF on LED is as bad as a CFL bulb now.
> 
>     Paul
> 

Yes, I've noticed that the led light bulbs I bought at walmart do not 
appear on my computer, thus no options to administer massive power 
saving features.

Should I take them back and demand a refund?

This is definitely an issue that should be addressed. I'm heartbroken 
over this monstrous let down. Perhaps a public demonstration could get 
results.

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#181112

micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
> I read in an answers.microsoft.com page that Hibernate uses less power
> than Sleep.   And another page said something similar. 
> 
> Doesn't Hibernate use NO power?   After it finishes copying the RAM to
> the HDD, isn't it just like OFF?  In what way could it use power?

  You don't say for which type of computer, but 'knowing' you, you
probably are asking about laptops, so I will respond in that context.

  As Shinji Ikari said, when in hibernation, the laptop still uses a
little power, because for example it responds to the power button, which
is a soft(ware) button, not an actaully switch. So the electronics of
the laptop is still ppartly on and hence uses some power. And, as
mentioned, USB ports might be kept alive, which also draws power.

  And, for Windows 10 (and 11), the laptop can have 'Modern Standby'
[1], which is more awake than 'old' 'Sleep'. And if the laptop has
'Modern Standby', it can also have 'Adaptive Hibernate' [2]. When in
Adaptive Hibernate, the system can still be woken up a bit (read the
reference) and can/will use some power, by default not more than 5% per
cycle.

  So yes, in hibernation, the laptop can and probably will use some
power.

  OTOH, in hibernation, the laptop can survive without power, which is
proven if you remove the battery (and of course not have the laptop on
AC power), assuming you can remove the battery, which is often no longer
the case. If, after doing that, you re-insert the battery or/and connect
AC power, you can wake the laptop by pressing the power button and the
session will continue, exactly as you  left it.

> As an aside, why does one have to enable Hibernate?  The other options,
> including sleep, restart are implemented by default. Is Hibernate to
> dangerous for a newbie to handle?

  There's no reason and no, it's not dangerous. Most knowledgeable
laptop users use it all the time (as has been recently discussed in
these groups (10 or/and 11)), because it's so much more convenient than
Shutdown, reboot, login and restart/initialize all your stuff to where
it was and uses much less battery power than the only other alternative,
which is Sleep and re-awake.

  Hope this helps.

[1] 'What is Modern Standby'
<https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/modern-standby>

[2] 'Adaptive Hibernate Overview'
<https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/customize/power-settings/adaptive-hibernate>

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#181114

On 03/01/2025 20:29, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
>> I read in an answers.microsoft.com page that Hibernate uses less power
>> than Sleep.   And another page said something similar.
>>
>> Doesn't Hibernate use NO power?   After it finishes copying the RAM to
>> the HDD, isn't it just like OFF?  In what way could it use power?
> 
>    You don't say for which type of computer, but 'knowing' you, you
> probably are asking about laptops, so I will respond in that context.
> 
>    As Shinji Ikari said, when in hibernation, the laptop still uses a
> little power, because for example it responds to the power button, which
> is a soft(ware) button, not an actaully switch. So the electronics of
> the laptop is still ppartly on and hence uses some power. And, as
> mentioned, USB ports might be kept alive, which also draws power.
> 
>    And, for Windows 10 (and 11), the laptop can have 'Modern Standby'
> [1], which is more awake than 'old' 'Sleep'. And if the laptop has
> 'Modern Standby', it can also have 'Adaptive Hibernate' [2]. When in
> Adaptive Hibernate, the system can still be woken up a bit (read the
> reference) and can/will use some power, by default not more than 5% per
> cycle.
> 
>    So yes, in hibernation, the laptop can and probably will use some
> power.
> 
>    OTOH, in hibernation, the laptop can survive without power, which is
> proven if you remove the battery (and of course not have the laptop on
> AC power), assuming you can remove the battery, which is often no longer
> the case. If, after doing that, you re-insert the battery or/and connect
> AC power, you can wake the laptop by pressing the power button and the
> session will continue, exactly as you  left it.
> 
>> As an aside, why does one have to enable Hibernate?  The other options,
>> including sleep, restart are implemented by default. Is Hibernate to
>> dangerous for a newbie to handle?
> 
>    There's no reason and no, it's not dangerous. Most knowledgeable
> laptop users use it all the time (as has been recently discussed in
> these groups (10 or/and 11)), because it's so much more convenient than
> Shutdown, reboot, login and restart/initialize all your stuff to where
> it was and uses much less battery power than the only other alternative,
> which is Sleep and re-awake.
> 
>    Hope this helps.
> 
> [1] 'What is Modern Standby'
> <https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/modern-standby>
> 
> [2] 'Adaptive Hibernate Overview'
> <https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/customize/power-settings/adaptive-hibernate>

I have an old Win 10 Lenovo laptop with no battery - removed when it 
became swollen. The laptop regularly hibernates while totally 
disconnected from the mains and happily wakes up even after several weeks.

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#181115

On Sat, 1/4/2025 5:28 AM, MikeS wrote:

> 
> I have an old Win 10 Lenovo laptop with no battery - removed when it became swollen. The laptop regularly hibernates while totally disconnected from the mains and happily wakes up even after several weeks.

The original question, by some deduction, seems to be focused
on the side effects of the hibernate state, on the charge condition
of the battery.

Do any Wake-logic conditions (burning 1 watt for LAN chip to sense WakeOnLAN),
affect the battery, making it discharge too low ? Does the laptop have
a state, where it waked from Hibernate, and the BIOS disconnects all
power from Wake circuits, then goes back to Soft-Off ?

Or instead, does Hibernate not allow Wake at all. Leaving only the Power Button
as the sole ACPI device that wakes from Hibernation ?

In your case, you have no battery, so you don't particularly care about
a problem that discharges laptop batteries (if at all).

I can't keep all these ACPI tidbits straight in my head,
but Intel chipset documents mention various states as being
disaallowed from waking (like anything doing a PME). Not all
the chipsets seemed to have the same information. But I did
not make a project out of this, gathering all the bits and
piece, because I likely don't understand ACPI well enough
to judge what is going on.

In any case, all I can tell the OP regarding laptpps, is
I pop the battery out of my laptop when not in usage,
to get the maximum lifetime between charges. I could
go on a three month vacation, and chances are, there would
be charge left in the battery sitting on the table. I prefer that,
to some mystery failure, where the battery ends up below the
min, and won't accept charge any more (considered "damaged"
by the logic behind how charging is done).

   Paul

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#181116

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> On Sat, 1/4/2025 5:28 AM, MikeS wrote:
> 
> > I have an old Win 10 Lenovo laptop with no battery - removed when it
> > became swollen. The laptop regularly hibernates while totally
> > disconnected from the mains and happily wakes up even after several
> > weeks.
> 
> The original question, by some deduction, seems to be focused
> on the side effects of the hibernate state, on the charge condition
> of the battery.
> 
> Do any Wake-logic conditions (burning 1 watt for LAN chip to sense WakeOnLAN),
> affect the battery, making it discharge too low ? Does the laptop have
> a state, where it waked from Hibernate, and the BIOS disconnects all
> power from Wake circuits, then goes back to Soft-Off ?

  As I mentioned, modern laptops, including those with Windows 10, can
have 'Adaptive Hibernate'. When still in the non-hibernate state, they
can  still be woken, but should not use more than 5% of battery capacity
per cycle.

  In full hibernate, my laptop seems to use quite a bit of battery
percentage (completely empty within only 4 days of non-use) if I don't
disable 'Allow wake timers' while 'On battery'. When I do disable this
setting, battery capacity is only 20% less after 7+ days, so much, much
better.

  As to WakeOnLAN: I don't know if that's enabled in my BIOS. (And I
can't be bothered to check, because we laptop users hibernate/wakeup,
instead of doing silly things like rebooting! :-))

> Or instead, does Hibernate not allow Wake at all. Leaving only the
> Power Button as the sole ACPI device that wakes from Hibernation ?

  I think it does allow Wake, otherwise my disabling 'Allow wake timers'
while 'On battery' wouldn't make such a difference

[...]

> In any case, all I can tell the OP regarding laptpps, is
> I pop the battery out of my laptop when not in usage,
> to get the maximum lifetime between charges. I could
> go on a three month vacation, and chances are, there would
> be charge left in the battery sitting on the table. I prefer that,
> to some mystery failure, where the battery ends up below the
> min, and won't accept charge any more (considered "damaged"
> by the logic behind how charging is done).

  Sadly, for most modern laptops, popping out the battery in no longer
an option. This is mainly because they are thinner and lighter and a
removable battery would make them heavier and much thicker. They can be
thinner, because they no longer have CD/DVD drives, no HDDs and no
'thick' ports (HDMI is about as thick as USB, no VGA (etc.) anymore).

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#181117

MikeS <MikeS@fred.com> wrote:
[...]

> I have an old Win 10 Lenovo laptop with no battery - removed when it 
> became swollen. The laptop regularly hibernates while totally 
> disconnected from the mains and happily wakes up even after several weeks.

  My wife's 'laptop' [1] is used the same way. Was happily in
hibernation during our three month holiday in Australia.

  BTW, You obviously mean that you hibernate it while it still *is*
connected to the mains and *then* you disconnect it from the mains! :-)
(And first reconnect it to the mains, before waking it up.)

[1] It's now used as a 'desktop' with seperate keyboard, mouse and
large(r) monitor.

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#181118

On 04/01/2025 16:28, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> MikeS <MikeS@fred.com> wrote:
> [...]
> 
>> I have an old Win 10 Lenovo laptop with no battery - removed when it
>> became swollen. The laptop regularly hibernates while totally
>> disconnected from the mains and happily wakes up even after several weeks.
> 
>    My wife's 'laptop' [1] is used the same way. Was happily in
> hibernation during our three month holiday in Australia.
> 
>    BTW, You obviously mean that you hibernate it while it still *is*
> connected to the mains and *then* you disconnect it from the mains! :-)
> (And first reconnect it to the mains, before waking it up.)
> 

Thank you!
I should, of course, have said that "The laptop is regularly left in the 
hibernated state while totally disconnected from the mains".

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#181404

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> writes:

>   And, for Windows 10 (and 11), the laptop can have 'Modern Standby'
> [1], which is more awake than 'old' 'Sleep'. And if the laptop has
> 'Modern Standby', it can also have 'Adaptive Hibernate' [2]. When in
> Adaptive Hibernate, the system can still be woken up a bit (read the
> reference) and can/will use some power, by default not more than 5% per
> cycle.

Thanks for this. I've been wondering why my newish work and personal
laptops don't seem to honor the "hibernate after" setting in the power
plan (i.e. number of minutes of sleep before hibernate.) But as long as
they hibernate instead of sucking the battery dry in Modern Standby, I'm
good.

From the linked explanation it seems hibernation should happen after 12
hours or 20% battery drain by default but that doesn't seem to match
what I've observed. Maybe I need to take a closer look.

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#181407

Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> writes:
> 
> >   And, for Windows 10 (and 11), the laptop can have 'Modern Standby'
> > [1], which is more awake than 'old' 'Sleep'. And if the laptop has
> > 'Modern Standby', it can also have 'Adaptive Hibernate' [2]. When in
> > Adaptive Hibernate, the system can still be woken up a bit (read the
> > reference) and can/will use some power, by default not more than 5% per
> > cycle.
> 
> Thanks for this. I've been wondering why my newish work and personal
> laptops don't seem to honor the "hibernate after" setting in the power
> plan (i.e. number of minutes of sleep before hibernate.) But as long as
> they hibernate instead of sucking the battery dry in Modern Standby, I'm
> good.
> 
> From the linked explanation it seems hibernation should happen after 12
> hours or 20% battery drain by default but that doesn't seem to match
> what I've observed. Maybe I need to take a closer look.

  It's indeed more complicated than that. For example if the battery is
drained by 5% (StandbyBudgetPercent) *before* 12 hours, the system will
go into hibernation.

  So the 20% drain (StandbyBudgetPercent * StandbyBudgetRefreshCount)
can only occur if *less* than 5% is used in each of the four 12 hour
(StandbyBudgetRefreshInterval) periods.

  In practice, my Windows 11 nearly always hibernates at some time
during the night, i.e. 5% drain is reached before 12 hours have elapsed.

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#181669

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> writes:

>   In practice, my Windows 11 nearly always hibernates at some time
> during the night, i.e. 5% drain is reached before 12 hours have elapsed.

I found the neat command powercfg /sleepstudy which generates an HTML
report. Turns out my work PC actually does follow the configured
"hibernate after" setting, it seems to sleep for the configured eight
hours and then hibernates. Power drain in that time is 3-5%.

On my personal laptop it seems the hibernation happens earlier but I'll
have to check that.

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#181213

On 4/1/2025 2:26 am, micky wrote:
> I read in an answers.microsoft.com page that Hibernate uses less power
> than Sleep.   And another page said something similar.
> 
> Doesn't Hibernate use NO power?   After it finishes copying the RAM to
> the HDD, isn't it just like OFF?  In what way could it use power?

Define "NO" in "NO power"!!! Only powered off or dead machines use NO 
power. :)

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#181214

On 10/1/2025 12:21 pm, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
> On 4/1/2025 2:26 am, micky wrote:
>> I read in an answers.microsoft.com page that Hibernate uses less power
>> than Sleep.   And another page said something similar.
>>
>> Doesn't Hibernate use NO power?   After it finishes copying the RAM to
>> the HDD, isn't it just like OFF?  In what way could it use power?
> 
> Define "NO" in "NO power"!!! Only powered off or dead machines use NO
> power. :)

Sorry... not "powered off" but "unplugged"! Sorry... :)

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#181234

Mr. Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/1/2025 12:21 pm, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
> > On 4/1/2025 2:26 am, micky wrote:
> >> I read in an answers.microsoft.com page that Hibernate uses less power
> >> than Sleep.   And another page said something similar.
> >>
> >> Doesn't Hibernate use NO power?   After it finishes copying the RAM to
> >> the HDD, isn't it just like OFF?  In what way could it use power?
> > 
> > Define "NO" in "NO power"!!! Only powered off or dead machines use NO
> > power. :)
> 
> Sorry... not "powered off" but "unplugged"! Sorry... :)

  As has been explained, as this is about a *laptop*, it still uses
power, even if powered off *and* unplugged. Only if you can and do
remove the battery, it uses 'no' power (where 'no power' is still a
tiny, tiny, bit). And yes, battery power is also power, not just
AC/'mains' power. :-)

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