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How Many Rape Reports Are False?

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  How Many Rape Reports Are False? "Bill Tucker" <btucker@outlook.com> - 2016-02-29 05:03 +0100
    Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2016-02-28 21:45 -0800
      Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? & <ampersand.the.great@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 13:35 -0500
    Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.mc74@googlemail.com> - 2016-03-01 08:28 -0800
      Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-03-01 16:46 +0000
        Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2016-03-01 16:38 -0800
          Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? Malcolm McMahon <malcolm@theriomorph.me.uk> - 2016-03-02 13:52 +0000
            Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? "Let Cos. Be - No Justice For Sluts" <opuzayo@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 12:43 -0800
              Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? Hope Simmers <Hope_Simmers@hotmail.com> - 2016-03-02 13:35 -0800
              Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? Olrik <olrik666@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 00:05 -0500
                Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2016-03-02 21:53 -0800
            Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2016-03-02 16:32 -0800
              Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-03-03 10:25 +0000
                Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.mc74@googlemail.com> - 2016-03-03 02:41 -0800
                  Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-03-03 18:40 +0000
                    Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.mc74@googlemail.com> - 2016-03-04 03:14 -0800
                Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2016-03-03 14:05 -0800
                  Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-03-04 16:00 +0000
                    Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2016-03-04 15:47 -0800
                      Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-03-05 14:10 +0000
    Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? Jefferson Was A Slave Molester <kolwezzi@astromail.com> - 2016-03-01 08:39 -0800
      Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? Olrik <olrik666@gmail.com> - 2016-03-01 23:41 -0500
        Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2016-03-02 01:40 -0800
          Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? "james g. keegan jr." <jgkeegan@gmaîl.com> - 2016-03-02 10:20 -0800
          Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? "Let Cos. Be - No Justice For Sluts" <opuzayo@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 12:38 -0800
            Re: How Many Rape Reports Are False? Hope Simmers <Hope_Simmers@hotmail.com> - 2016-03-02 13:32 -0800

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#2067670 — How Many Rape Reports Are False?

By Megan McArdle
How many women falsely accuse men of rape?

A lot of statistics are floating around the Internet: Two 
percent, say many feminists, the same as other crimes. Twenty-
five percent, say other groups who quarrel with the feminists on 
many issues, or maybe 40 percent. Here's the real answer: We 
don't know. Anyone who insists that we do know should be 
corrected or ignored.

The number of false accusations is what statisticians call a 
"dark number" -- that is, there is a true number, but it is 
unknown, and perhaps unknowable. For a deep dive into the 
reasons it's so hard to know, I commend you to Cathy Young's new 
piece at Slate, in which she details all the problems that 
confound investigations into false rape accusations.

Here's what we do know: The 2 percent number is very bad and 
should never be cited. It apparently traces its lineage back to 
Susan Brownmiller's legendary "Against Our Will," and her 
citation for this figure is a single speech by an appellate 
judge before a small group of lawyers. His source for this 
statistic was a single area of New York that started having 
policewomen conduct all rape interviews. This is not data. It is 
an anecdote about an anecdote.

The 41 percent number beloved of men's-rights activists is 
better; it involves a peer-reviewed study by Eugene Kanin of a 
police department in some unknown small city. False reports 
could only be declared if the victim herself withdrew the 
charge. However. We're talking about one city, in which 109 
rapes were examined over a period of nine years. As feminists 
point out, victims might have withdrawn the charges simply 
because they found it too traumatic to engage with the police 
department, not because the accusation was false . And the study 
itself is now pretty elderly. A lot has changed in 20 years, 
including, possibly, the number of false rape accusations in 
this city and the rest of the nation. This number should be used 
only with grave caution.

But so should any other numbers, such as the 8 percent figure 
that is commonly attributed to the FBI. When you dig into the 
research itself, you find it is often heavily inflected with the 
authors' prior beliefs about what constitutes the "real 
problem": unreported cases of rape or false reports? So Kanin is 
frequently chided for accepting the results of a police 
department investigation that included offering the victims a 
polygraph, because this is intimidating for true victims as well 
as women making false reports, and it could raise the incidence 
of false negatives. On the other hand, if the rate of false rape 
reports is quite high -- much higher than that of other crimes --
 then this might be a reasonable precaution. It's possible that 
by encouraging police departments not to polygraph rape victims, 
we have fixed a cruel system in which innocent victims are 
bullied into recanting. It's also possible that we've increased 
the number of false accusations that proceed to investigation 
and conviction.

Shorter: You cannot treat "percentage of reports that were found 
to be false by investigators" as "percentage of reports that 
were actually false." Some women may simply have recanted to 
disengage from the system. Some police officers may decide a 
case was false when it wasn't. On the other hand, we also know 
that false accusations can make their way through the system 
pretty far -- witness the Duke lacrosse players and Brian Banks.

What we know is that we don't know. We should not presume that 
every rape victim is telling the truth because it would make it 
easier for victims to come forward. Nor should we presume that 
every rape accusation has a 50 percent chance of being false. We 
should look at the facts in each case and judge them with the 
knowledge that some women do lie about rape -- for revenge, to 
cover up some problem in their own lives, to get attention and 
sympathy from others. And also with the knowledge that men lie, 
too, violating their victims a second time in order to cover up 
their crimes. And that while men have gone to jail for rapes 
they did not commit, many other men have avoided the jail time 
they deserved for terrible crimes against women.

That's not a very satisfying answer, because rape is inherently 
a hard crime to prosecute. If someone comes into a police 
station with their face bashed in, you can be pretty much 
certain that unless they're a professional boxer, a crime has 
occurred. If a rape kit shows evidence of sexual intercourse, 
however, all that tells you is that ... something happened. 
Because this is something that a lot of people do to each other 
voluntarily, you cannot proceed immediately to the arrest. 
Usually there are only two witnesses, telling different stories. 
Often drugs or alcohol were involved, and intoxicated people 
make lousy witnesses.

We don't want that to be true. Rape is an especially heinous 
crime, and heinously unfair -- it is mostly something that 
stronger men do to weaker women. How can we pile on an extra 
dose of unfairness -- by failing to prosecute so many of the 
crimes?

Feminists would like to rectify that unfairness by treating rape 
accusations as presumptively true, making it easier for victims 
to come forward. That's understandable. But there's a risk that 
this makes it easier for false accusations to get through the 
system, resulting in destroyed lives for men such as Brian 
Banks. Men's-rights activists would like to make it harder for 
innocent men to get caught in a web of lies, so they want rape 
accusations to be interrogated with deep suspicion. But treating 
rape victims as possible or likely liars may make it harder for 
them to go forward, leaving rapists free to stalk their next 
victim.

No one wants to openly advocate for a hard choice that will end 
in injustice for someone. So instead we get the war of bad 
statistics, with each side claiming certainty when all we really 
have are dark crimes and dark numbers.

Though to be fair, Kalin, the author of the study, goes into 
some detail about the nature of the recantations, and they're 
both pretty specific and pretty plausible -- i.e., "my husband 
is overseas and I'm afraid I'm pregnant." They mostly occurred a 
couple of days after the report, not after extended contact with 
"the system."

This column does not necessarily reflect the opinion of 
Bloomberg View's editorial board or Bloomberg LP, its owners and 
investors.

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-09-19/how-many-rape-
reports-are-false

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#2067696

In article <98c74257056728cf25c58bfe70723a6e@dizum.com>,
 "Bill Tucker" <btucker@outlook.com> wrote:

> By Megan McArdle
> How many women falsely accuse men of rape?


About the same number of people who falsely report burglaries or 
muggings or any other crime.

-- 

JD

"If ANYONE will not welcome you or listen to 
your words, LEAVE that home or town and shake 
the dust off your feet." Matthew 10:14

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#2067859

On 02/29/2016 12:45 AM, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
> In article <98c74257056728cf25c58bfe70723a6e@dizum.com>, "Bill
> Tucker" <btucker@outlook.com> wrote:
>
>> By Megan McArdle How many women falsely accuse men of rape?
>
>
> About the same number of people who falsely report burglaries or
> muggings or any other crime.
>

jeanne has done all those things so she would know

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#2068289

On Monday, 29 February 2016 04:12:56 UTC, Bill Tucker  wrote:
> By Megan McArdle
> How many women falsely accuse men of rape?
> 

Rape's tricky. Not the dragging into the bushes kind, but "date rape". Rape's tricky because it hinges on consent, which can be slippery and subjective impressions, which can, and often are, edited in recall because we want to write a better story.

I imagine that there are quite common instances where the man genuinely doesn't believe that what he did was rape, while the woman genuinely believes that it was.

Consequently it's impossible to even estimate how many accusations are false.

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#2068297

On 01/03/2016 16:28, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> On Monday, 29 February 2016 04:12:56 UTC, Bill Tucker  wrote:
>> By Megan McArdle How many women falsely accuse men of rape?
>>
>
> Rape's tricky. Not the dragging into the bushes kind, but "date
> rape". Rape's tricky because it hinges on consent, which can be
> slippery and subjective impressions, which can, and often are, edited
> in recall because we want to write a better story.

Which, by the sound of it, is what Julian Assange fell foul of.


>
> I imagine that there are quite common instances where the man
> genuinely doesn't believe that what he did was rape, while the woman
> genuinely believes that it was.
>
> Consequently it's impossible to even estimate how many accusations
> are false.
>

That aside, the men's names are quite commonly publicised in the press 
whereas the women are permitted to remain anonymous.  In cases where a 
prosecution fails or even in cases where it is clear that the woman has 
made a false accusation, she continues to enjoy the protection of 
anonymity.  This makes it all the harder to establish even reasonable 
approximations of such instances.

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#2068579

In article <djlvb8Fb9n9U1@mid.individual.net>,
 "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On 01/03/2016 16:28, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> > On Monday, 29 February 2016 04:12:56 UTC, Bill Tucker  wrote:
> >> By Megan McArdle How many women falsely accuse men of rape?
> >>
> >
> > Rape's tricky. Not the dragging into the bushes kind, but "date
> > rape". Rape's tricky because it hinges on consent, which can be
> > slippery and subjective impressions, which can, and often are, edited
> > in recall because we want to write a better story.
> 
> Which, by the sound of it, is what Julian Assange fell foul of.
> 
> 
> >
> > I imagine that there are quite common instances where the man
> > genuinely doesn't believe that what he did was rape, while the woman
> > genuinely believes that it was.
> >
> > Consequently it's impossible to even estimate how many accusations
> > are false.
> >
> 
> That aside, the men's names are quite commonly publicised in the press 
> whereas the women are permitted to remain anonymous.  In cases where a 
> prosecution fails or even in cases where it is clear that the woman has 
> made a false accusation, she continues to enjoy the protection of 
> anonymity.  This makes it all the harder to establish even reasonable 
> approximations of such instances.


That it sometimes hides false accusers, it's a small price to pay to 
defend all the women who are survivors.

When the onus finally dies away about sexual assault, when women aren't 
blamed for their own rapes anymore, when the stigma of being a sexual 
assault survivor is gone, then it won't be necessary to hide names.

While we're on the subject, if you didn't watch the Oscars, find Lady 
Gaga's performance somewhere online. It was an incredibly powerful 
performance that left me in tears.

-- 

JD

"If ANYONE will not welcome you or listen to 
your words, LEAVE that home or town and shake 
the dust off your feet." Matthew 10:14

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#2068785

Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
>In article <djlvb8Fb9n9U1@mid.individual.net>,
> "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 01/03/2016 16:28, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
>> > On Monday, 29 February 2016 04:12:56 UTC, Bill Tucker  wrote:
>> >> By Megan McArdle How many women falsely accuse men of rape?
>> >>
>> >
>> > Rape's tricky. Not the dragging into the bushes kind, but "date
>> > rape". Rape's tricky because it hinges on consent, which can be
>> > slippery and subjective impressions, which can, and often are, edited
>> > in recall because we want to write a better story.
>> 
>> Which, by the sound of it, is what Julian Assange fell foul of.
>> 
>> 
>> >
>> > I imagine that there are quite common instances where the man
>> > genuinely doesn't believe that what he did was rape, while the woman
>> > genuinely believes that it was.
>> >
>> > Consequently it's impossible to even estimate how many accusations
>> > are false.
>> >
>> 
>> That aside, the men's names are quite commonly publicised in the press 
>> whereas the women are permitted to remain anonymous.  In cases where a 
>> prosecution fails or even in cases where it is clear that the woman has 
>> made a false accusation, she continues to enjoy the protection of 
>> anonymity.  This makes it all the harder to establish even reasonable 
>> approximations of such instances.
>
>
>That it sometimes hides false accusers, it's a small price to pay to 
>defend all the women who are survivors.

A false alegation of Rape can ruin a man's life as completely as genuine rape 
can ruin a woman's

Sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander.


>
>When the onus finally dies away about sexual assault, when women aren't 
>blamed for their own rapes anymore, when the stigma of being a sexual 
>assault survivor is gone, then it won't be necessary to hide names.
>
>While we're on the subject, if you didn't watch the Oscars, find Lady 
>Gaga's performance somewhere online. It was an incredibly powerful 
>performance that left me in tears.
>
>-- 
>
>JD
>
>"If ANYONE will not welcome you or listen to 
>your words, LEAVE that home or town and shake 
>the dust off your feet." Matthew 10:14

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#2068959

On Wednesday, March 2, 2016 at 8:55:43 AM UTC-5, Malcolm McMahon wrote:

> >
> >That it sometimes hides false accusers, it's a small price to pay to 
> >defend all the women who are survivors.
> 
> A false alegation of Rape can ruin a man's life as completely as genuine rape 
> can ruin a woman's
> 
> Sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander.



I know of NO woman whose life was ruined by rape. Some women dressed a certain way to invite violent sex which they enjoy. This is a type of pathology.



> 
> 
> >
> >When the onus finally dies away about sexual assault, when women aren't 
> >blamed for their own rapes anymore, when the stigma of being a sexual 
> >assault survivor is gone, then it won't be necessary to hide names.
> >
> >While we're on the subject, if you didn't watch the Oscars, find Lady 
> >Gaga's performance somewhere online. It was an incredibly powerful 
> >performance that left me in tears.
> >
> >-- 
> >
> >JD
> >
> >"If ANYONE will not welcome you or listen to 
> >your words, LEAVE that home or town and shake 
> >the dust off your feet." Matthew 10:14

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#2068976

On Wednesday, March 2, 2016 at 1:43:46 PM UTC-7, Sybil wrote:
 
> I know of NO woman whose life was ruined by rape. Some women dressed a certain way to invite violent sex which they enjoy. This is a type of pathology.

No one asked how you met your wife.

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#2069180

Le 2016-03-02 15:43, Let Cos. Be - No Justice For Sluts a écrit :
> On Wednesday, March 2, 2016 at 8:55:43 AM UTC-5, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
>
>>>
>>> That it sometimes hides false accusers, it's a small price to pay to
>>> defend all the women who are survivors.
>>
>> A false alegation of Rape can ruin a man's life as completely as genuine rape
>> can ruin a woman's
>>
>> Sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander.
>
>
>
> I know of NO woman whose life was ruined by rape.

Then you've never met a woman who was raped.


-- 
Olrik
aa #1981
EAC Chief Food Inspector, Bacon Division

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#2069187

In article <nb8ghl$6tr$2@dont-email.me>, Olrik <olrik666@gmail.com> 
wrote:

> Le 2016-03-02 15:43, Let Cos. Be - No Justice For Sluts a écrit :
> > On Wednesday, March 2, 2016 at 8:55:43 AM UTC-5, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>> That it sometimes hides false accusers, it's a small price to pay to
> >>> defend all the women who are survivors.
> >>
> >> A false alegation of Rape can ruin a man's life as completely as genuine 
> >> rape
> >> can ruin a woman's
> >>
> >> Sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander.
> >
> >
> >
> > I know of NO woman whose life was ruined by rape.
> 
> Then you've never met a woman who was raped.

Exactly.

Or never met one who trusted him enough to come out from behind the 
shield she'd built up.

-- 

JD

"If ANYONE will not welcome you or listen to 
your words, LEAVE that home or town and shake 
the dust off your feet." Matthew 10:14

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#2069061

In article <part1of1.1.dXHr8G3CwGHgew@ue.ph>,
 Malcolm McMahon <malcolm@theriomorph.me.uk> wrote:

> Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
> >In article <djlvb8Fb9n9U1@mid.individual.net>,
> > "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> On 01/03/2016 16:28, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> >> > On Monday, 29 February 2016 04:12:56 UTC, Bill Tucker  wrote:
> >> >> By Megan McArdle How many women falsely accuse men of rape?
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Rape's tricky. Not the dragging into the bushes kind, but "date
> >> > rape". Rape's tricky because it hinges on consent, which can be
> >> > slippery and subjective impressions, which can, and often are, edited
> >> > in recall because we want to write a better story.
> >> 
> >> Which, by the sound of it, is what Julian Assange fell foul of.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> >
> >> > I imagine that there are quite common instances where the man
> >> > genuinely doesn't believe that what he did was rape, while the woman
> >> > genuinely believes that it was.
> >> >
> >> > Consequently it's impossible to even estimate how many accusations
> >> > are false.
> >> >
> >> 
> >> That aside, the men's names are quite commonly publicised in the press 
> >> whereas the women are permitted to remain anonymous.  In cases where a 
> >> prosecution fails or even in cases where it is clear that the woman has 
> >> made a false accusation, she continues to enjoy the protection of 
> >> anonymity.  This makes it all the harder to establish even reasonable 
> >> approximations of such instances.
> >
> >
> >That it sometimes hides false accusers, it's a small price to pay to 
> >defend all the women who are survivors.
> 
> A false alegation of Rape can ruin a man's life as completely as genuine rape 
> can ruin a woman's
> 
> Sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander.


Any woman who files a false rape report is making it harder for all the 
women who actually were raped and not believed. It's absolutely 
despicable.

They should spend the time in prison that a rapist would.

-- 

JD

"If ANYONE will not welcome you or listen to 
your words, LEAVE that home or town and shake 
the dust off your feet." Matthew 10:14

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#2069249

On 03/03/2016 00:32, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
> In article <part1of1.1.dXHr8G3CwGHgew@ue.ph>,
>   Malcolm McMahon <malcolm@theriomorph.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
>>> In article <djlvb8Fb9n9U1@mid.individual.net>,
>>> "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 01/03/2016 16:28, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, 29 February 2016 04:12:56 UTC, Bill Tucker  wrote:
>>>>>> By Megan McArdle How many women falsely accuse men of rape?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Rape's tricky. Not the dragging into the bushes kind, but "date
>>>>> rape". Rape's tricky because it hinges on consent, which can be
>>>>> slippery and subjective impressions, which can, and often are, edited
>>>>> in recall because we want to write a better story.
>>>>
>>>> Which, by the sound of it, is what Julian Assange fell foul of.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I imagine that there are quite common instances where the man
>>>>> genuinely doesn't believe that what he did was rape, while the woman
>>>>> genuinely believes that it was.
>>>>>
>>>>> Consequently it's impossible to even estimate how many accusations
>>>>> are false.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That aside, the men's names are quite commonly publicised in the press
>>>> whereas the women are permitted to remain anonymous.  In cases where a
>>>> prosecution fails or even in cases where it is clear that the woman has
>>>> made a false accusation, she continues to enjoy the protection of
>>>> anonymity.  This makes it all the harder to establish even reasonable
>>>> approximations of such instances.
>>>
>>>
>>> That it sometimes hides false accusers, it's a small price to pay to
>>> defend all the women who are survivors.
>>
>> A false alegation of Rape can ruin a man's life as completely as genuine rape
>> can ruin a woman's
>>
>> Sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander.
>
>
> Any woman who files a false rape report is making it harder for all the
> women who actually were raped and not believed. It's absolutely
> despicable.
>
> They should spend the time in prison that a rapist would.
>

I wouldn't even go that far.  There are other charges that could and 
should be filed against such persons: perverting the course of justice 
and perjury spring to mind.

At the very least she should be deprived of her anonymity, and she 
should be banned from profiting from her deeds (selling her stories to 
the media).

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#2069250

On Thursday, 3 March 2016 10:25:40 UTC, Alex W.  wrote:
> On 03/03/2016 00:32, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
> > In article <part1of1.1.dXHr8G3CwGHgew@ue.ph>,
> >   Malcolm McMahon <malcolm@theriomorph.me.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
> >>> In article <djlvb8Fb9n9U1@mid.individual.net>,
> >>> "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 01/03/2016 16:28, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> >>>>> On Monday, 29 February 2016 04:12:56 UTC, Bill Tucker  wrote:
> >>>>>> By Megan McArdle How many women falsely accuse men of rape?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Rape's tricky. Not the dragging into the bushes kind, but "date
> >>>>> rape". Rape's tricky because it hinges on consent, which can be
> >>>>> slippery and subjective impressions, which can, and often are, edited
> >>>>> in recall because we want to write a better story.
> >>>>
> >>>> Which, by the sound of it, is what Julian Assange fell foul of.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I imagine that there are quite common instances where the man
> >>>>> genuinely doesn't believe that what he did was rape, while the woman
> >>>>> genuinely believes that it was.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Consequently it's impossible to even estimate how many accusations
> >>>>> are false.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> That aside, the men's names are quite commonly publicised in the press
> >>>> whereas the women are permitted to remain anonymous.  In cases where a
> >>>> prosecution fails or even in cases where it is clear that the woman has
> >>>> made a false accusation, she continues to enjoy the protection of
> >>>> anonymity.  This makes it all the harder to establish even reasonable
> >>>> approximations of such instances.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> That it sometimes hides false accusers, it's a small price to pay to
> >>> defend all the women who are survivors.
> >>
> >> A false alegation of Rape can ruin a man's life as completely as genuine rape
> >> can ruin a woman's
> >>
> >> Sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander.
> >
> >
> > Any woman who files a false rape report is making it harder for all the
> > women who actually were raped and not believed. It's absolutely
> > despicable.
> >
> > They should spend the time in prison that a rapist would.
> >
> 
> I wouldn't even go that far.  There are other charges that could and 
> should be filed against such persons: perverting the course of justice 
> and perjury spring to mind.

But then the standard of proof would require that there be proof that _no_ rape took place "beyond a reasonable doubt". And that will, more often than not, be impossible.

Most people who have sex do so without witnesses. In a lot of cases the fact of sexual intercourse is not in dispute. (Which might, otherwise, be evidenced by forensics).

So, very often, whether rape took place or not is a matter of the perceptions of the two people involved. Impossible either to prove or to disprove.



> 
> At the very least she should be deprived of her anonymity, and she 
> should be banned from profiting from her deeds (selling her stories to 
> the media).

That will sometimes happen in the rare case when the accusation can be definitively disproved.

But how many women would report genuine rapes if they were taking a gamble against the prosecution's failure to convince a jury, with dire consequences to them should the prosecution fail?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#2069400

On 03/03/2016 10:41, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> On Thursday, 3 March 2016 10:25:40 UTC, Alex W.  wrote:
>> On 03/03/2016 00:32, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
>>> In article <part1of1.1.dXHr8G3CwGHgew@ue.ph>, Malcolm McMahon
>>> <malcolm@theriomorph.me.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> In article <djlvb8Fb9n9U1@mid.individual.net>, "Alex W."
>>>>> <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 01/03/2016 16:28, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, 29 February 2016 04:12:56 UTC, Bill Tucker
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> By Megan McArdle How many women falsely accuse men of
>>>>>>>> rape?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rape's tricky. Not the dragging into the bushes kind, but
>>>>>>> "date rape". Rape's tricky because it hinges on consent,
>>>>>>> which can be slippery and subjective impressions, which
>>>>>>> can, and often are, edited in recall because we want to
>>>>>>> write a better story.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which, by the sound of it, is what Julian Assange fell foul
>>>>>> of.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I imagine that there are quite common instances where the
>>>>>>> man genuinely doesn't believe that what he did was rape,
>>>>>>> while the woman genuinely believes that it was.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Consequently it's impossible to even estimate how many
>>>>>>> accusations are false.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That aside, the men's names are quite commonly publicised
>>>>>> in the press whereas the women are permitted to remain
>>>>>> anonymous.  In cases where a prosecution fails or even in
>>>>>> cases where it is clear that the woman has made a false
>>>>>> accusation, she continues to enjoy the protection of
>>>>>> anonymity.  This makes it all the harder to establish even
>>>>>> reasonable approximations of such instances.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That it sometimes hides false accusers, it's a small price to
>>>>> pay to defend all the women who are survivors.
>>>>
>>>> A false alegation of Rape can ruin a man's life as completely
>>>> as genuine rape can ruin a woman's
>>>>
>>>> Sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander.
>>>
>>>
>>> Any woman who files a false rape report is making it harder for
>>> all the women who actually were raped and not believed. It's
>>> absolutely despicable.
>>>
>>> They should spend the time in prison that a rapist would.
>>>
>>
>> I wouldn't even go that far.  There are other charges that could
>> and should be filed against such persons: perverting the course of
>> justice and perjury spring to mind.
>
> But then the standard of proof would require that there be proof that
> _no_ rape took place "beyond a reasonable doubt". And that will, more
> often than not, be impossible.

Not really.
What would be required is proof that the person knowingly led law 
enforcement astray, that they made false statements.  Proving that no 
rape occurred is even trickier than proving that a rape did take place, 
but catching out someone in deliberate lies is a good deal easier.


>
> Most people who have sex do so without witnesses. In a lot of cases
> the fact of sexual intercourse is not in dispute. (Which might,
> otherwise, be evidenced by forensics).
>
> So, very often, whether rape took place or not is a matter of the
> perceptions of the two people involved. Impossible either to prove or
> to disprove.

True...

Perversely, in traditional and strongly patriarchal societies where 
women are deprived of rights and a voice, it is often easier to 
determine rape because it is defined differently: merely having sex with 
an unmarried woman qualifies.


>
>
>
>>
>> At the very least she should be deprived of her anonymity, and she
>> should be banned from profiting from her deeds (selling her stories
>> to the media).
>
> That will sometimes happen in the rare case when the accusation can
> be definitively disproved.
>
> But how many women would report genuine rapes if they were taking a
> gamble against the prosecution's failure to convince a jury, with
> dire consequences to them should the prosecution fail?

I wasn't even thinking of failed prosecutions.  These happen, and will 
continue to happen -- short of mandatory videotaping of the entire 
evening including the sex act itself (body cams, maybe?) there will 
always be room for doubt and confusion and misinterpretation.

What I was referring to are those thankfully rare cases where a 
prosecution fails or is abandoned because it becomes clear that the 
accusation itself is false.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#2069732

On Thursday, 3 March 2016 18:40:38 UTC, Alex W.  wrote:
> On 03/03/2016 10:41, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> > On Thursday, 3 March 2016 10:25:40 UTC, Alex W.  wrote:
> >> On 03/03/2016 00:32, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
> >>> In article <part1of1.1.dXHr8G3CwGHgew@ue.ph>, Malcolm McMahon
> >>> <malcolm@theriomorph.me.uk> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> In article <djlvb8Fb9n9U1@mid.individual.net>, "Alex W."
> >>>>> <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 01/03/2016 16:28, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Monday, 29 February 2016 04:12:56 UTC, Bill Tucker
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> By Megan McArdle How many women falsely accuse men of
> >>>>>>>> rape?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Rape's tricky. Not the dragging into the bushes kind, but
> >>>>>>> "date rape". Rape's tricky because it hinges on consent,
> >>>>>>> which can be slippery and subjective impressions, which
> >>>>>>> can, and often are, edited in recall because we want to
> >>>>>>> write a better story.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Which, by the sound of it, is what Julian Assange fell foul
> >>>>>> of.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I imagine that there are quite common instances where the
> >>>>>>> man genuinely doesn't believe that what he did was rape,
> >>>>>>> while the woman genuinely believes that it was.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Consequently it's impossible to even estimate how many
> >>>>>>> accusations are false.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> That aside, the men's names are quite commonly publicised
> >>>>>> in the press whereas the women are permitted to remain
> >>>>>> anonymous.  In cases where a prosecution fails or even in
> >>>>>> cases where it is clear that the woman has made a false
> >>>>>> accusation, she continues to enjoy the protection of
> >>>>>> anonymity.  This makes it all the harder to establish even
> >>>>>> reasonable approximations of such instances.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That it sometimes hides false accusers, it's a small price to
> >>>>> pay to defend all the women who are survivors.
> >>>>
> >>>> A false alegation of Rape can ruin a man's life as completely
> >>>> as genuine rape can ruin a woman's
> >>>>
> >>>> Sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Any woman who files a false rape report is making it harder for
> >>> all the women who actually were raped and not believed. It's
> >>> absolutely despicable.
> >>>
> >>> They should spend the time in prison that a rapist would.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I wouldn't even go that far.  There are other charges that could
> >> and should be filed against such persons: perverting the course of
> >> justice and perjury spring to mind.
> >
> > But then the standard of proof would require that there be proof that
> > _no_ rape took place "beyond a reasonable doubt". And that will, more
> > often than not, be impossible.
> 
> Not really.
> What would be required is proof that the person knowingly led law 
> enforcement astray, that they made false statements.  Proving that no 
> rape occurred is even trickier than proving that a rape did take place, 
> but catching out someone in deliberate lies is a good deal easier.
> 
> 
> >
> > Most people who have sex do so without witnesses. In a lot of cases
> > the fact of sexual intercourse is not in dispute. (Which might,
> > otherwise, be evidenced by forensics).
> >
> > So, very often, whether rape took place or not is a matter of the
> > perceptions of the two people involved. Impossible either to prove or
> > to disprove.
> 
> True...
> 
> Perversely, in traditional and strongly patriarchal societies where 
> women are deprived of rights and a voice, it is often easier to 
> determine rape because it is defined differently: merely having sex with 
> an unmarried woman qualifies.

Effectively in such societies rape is a property crime.


> 
> 
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> At the very least she should be deprived of her anonymity, and she
> >> should be banned from profiting from her deeds (selling her stories
> >> to the media).
> >
> > That will sometimes happen in the rare case when the accusation can
> > be definitively disproved.
> >
> > But how many women would report genuine rapes if they were taking a
> > gamble against the prosecution's failure to convince a jury, with
> > dire consequences to them should the prosecution fail?
> 
> I wasn't even thinking of failed prosecutions.  These happen, and will 
> continue to happen -- short of mandatory videotaping of the entire 
> evening including the sex act itself (body cams, maybe?) there will 
> always be room for doubt and confusion and misinterpretation.
> 
> What I was referring to are those thankfully rare cases where a 
> prosecution fails or is abandoned because it becomes clear that the 
> accusation itself is false.

Because rape is such a subjective issue, the only viable defense tends to be to make the jury disbelieve the woman's testimony. That's what makes it such an ordeal.

So, a successful defense is is mostly going to "make it clear that the accusation is false."

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#2069488

In article <djqhp0FgbgsU2@mid.individual.net>,
 "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On 03/03/2016 00:32, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
> > In article <part1of1.1.dXHr8G3CwGHgew@ue.ph>,
> >   Malcolm McMahon <malcolm@theriomorph.me.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
> >>> In article <djlvb8Fb9n9U1@mid.individual.net>,
> >>> "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 01/03/2016 16:28, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> >>>>> On Monday, 29 February 2016 04:12:56 UTC, Bill Tucker  wrote:
> >>>>>> By Megan McArdle How many women falsely accuse men of rape?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Rape's tricky. Not the dragging into the bushes kind, but "date
> >>>>> rape". Rape's tricky because it hinges on consent, which can be
> >>>>> slippery and subjective impressions, which can, and often are, edited
> >>>>> in recall because we want to write a better story.
> >>>>
> >>>> Which, by the sound of it, is what Julian Assange fell foul of.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I imagine that there are quite common instances where the man
> >>>>> genuinely doesn't believe that what he did was rape, while the woman
> >>>>> genuinely believes that it was.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Consequently it's impossible to even estimate how many accusations
> >>>>> are false.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> That aside, the men's names are quite commonly publicised in the press
> >>>> whereas the women are permitted to remain anonymous.  In cases where a
> >>>> prosecution fails or even in cases where it is clear that the woman has
> >>>> made a false accusation, she continues to enjoy the protection of
> >>>> anonymity.  This makes it all the harder to establish even reasonable
> >>>> approximations of such instances.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> That it sometimes hides false accusers, it's a small price to pay to
> >>> defend all the women who are survivors.
> >>
> >> A false alegation of Rape can ruin a man's life as completely as genuine 
> >> rape
> >> can ruin a woman's
> >>
> >> Sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander.
> >
> >
> > Any woman who files a false rape report is making it harder for all the
> > women who actually were raped and not believed. It's absolutely
> > despicable.
> >
> > They should spend the time in prison that a rapist would.
> >
> 
> I wouldn't even go that far.  There are other charges that could and 
> should be filed against such persons: perverting the course of justice 
> and perjury spring to mind.
> 
> At the very least she should be deprived of her anonymity, and she 
> should be banned from profiting from her deeds (selling her stories to 
> the media).

I'll go along with that.

I'm a little extra adamant on this because I've watched in frustration 
for decades as rape victims were not taken seriously and were basically 
raped again by the system. 

Actually, I feel exactly the same about women who file false abuse 
claims.

-- 

JD

"If ANYONE will not welcome you or listen to 
your words, LEAVE that home or town and shake 
the dust off your feet." Matthew 10:14

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#2069812

On 03/03/2016 22:05, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
> In article <djqhp0FgbgsU2@mid.individual.net>,
>   "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 03/03/2016 00:32, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
>>> In article <part1of1.1.dXHr8G3CwGHgew@ue.ph>,
>>>    Malcolm McMahon <malcolm@theriomorph.me.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> In article <djlvb8Fb9n9U1@mid.individual.net>,
>>>>> "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 01/03/2016 16:28, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, 29 February 2016 04:12:56 UTC, Bill Tucker  wrote:
>>>>>>>> By Megan McArdle How many women falsely accuse men of rape?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rape's tricky. Not the dragging into the bushes kind, but "date
>>>>>>> rape". Rape's tricky because it hinges on consent, which can be
>>>>>>> slippery and subjective impressions, which can, and often are, edited
>>>>>>> in recall because we want to write a better story.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which, by the sound of it, is what Julian Assange fell foul of.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I imagine that there are quite common instances where the man
>>>>>>> genuinely doesn't believe that what he did was rape, while the woman
>>>>>>> genuinely believes that it was.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Consequently it's impossible to even estimate how many accusations
>>>>>>> are false.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That aside, the men's names are quite commonly publicised in the press
>>>>>> whereas the women are permitted to remain anonymous.  In cases where a
>>>>>> prosecution fails or even in cases where it is clear that the woman has
>>>>>> made a false accusation, she continues to enjoy the protection of
>>>>>> anonymity.  This makes it all the harder to establish even reasonable
>>>>>> approximations of such instances.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That it sometimes hides false accusers, it's a small price to pay to
>>>>> defend all the women who are survivors.
>>>>
>>>> A false alegation of Rape can ruin a man's life as completely as genuine
>>>> rape
>>>> can ruin a woman's
>>>>
>>>> Sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander.
>>>
>>>
>>> Any woman who files a false rape report is making it harder for all the
>>> women who actually were raped and not believed. It's absolutely
>>> despicable.
>>>
>>> They should spend the time in prison that a rapist would.
>>>
>>
>> I wouldn't even go that far.  There are other charges that could and
>> should be filed against such persons: perverting the course of justice
>> and perjury spring to mind.
>>
>> At the very least she should be deprived of her anonymity, and she
>> should be banned from profiting from her deeds (selling her stories to
>> the media).
>
> I'll go along with that.
>
> I'm a little extra adamant on this because I've watched in frustration
> for decades as rape victims were not taken seriously and were basically
> raped again by the system.

Problem is, Jeanne, even when they are taken seriously, this is a crime 
that is generally difficult and often impossible to prove.  Unless there 
is clear evidence of violence, it boils down to a case of "he says, she 
says" ... and then, it becomes little more than an exercise in character 
assassination.

This is never going to change, either -- not unless you legally mandate 
video surveillance for every single sex act.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#2070041

In article <djtppfFbsecU1@mid.individual.net>,
 "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On 03/03/2016 22:05, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
> > In article <djqhp0FgbgsU2@mid.individual.net>,
> >   "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> On 03/03/2016 00:32, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
> >>> In article <part1of1.1.dXHr8G3CwGHgew@ue.ph>,
> >>>    Malcolm McMahon <malcolm@theriomorph.me.uk> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> In article <djlvb8Fb9n9U1@mid.individual.net>,
> >>>>> "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 01/03/2016 16:28, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Monday, 29 February 2016 04:12:56 UTC, Bill Tucker  wrote:
> >>>>>>>> By Megan McArdle How many women falsely accuse men of rape?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Rape's tricky. Not the dragging into the bushes kind, but "date
> >>>>>>> rape". Rape's tricky because it hinges on consent, which can be
> >>>>>>> slippery and subjective impressions, which can, and often are, edited
> >>>>>>> in recall because we want to write a better story.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Which, by the sound of it, is what Julian Assange fell foul of.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I imagine that there are quite common instances where the man
> >>>>>>> genuinely doesn't believe that what he did was rape, while the woman
> >>>>>>> genuinely believes that it was.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Consequently it's impossible to even estimate how many accusations
> >>>>>>> are false.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> That aside, the men's names are quite commonly publicised in the press
> >>>>>> whereas the women are permitted to remain anonymous.  In cases where a
> >>>>>> prosecution fails or even in cases where it is clear that the woman has
> >>>>>> made a false accusation, she continues to enjoy the protection of
> >>>>>> anonymity.  This makes it all the harder to establish even reasonable
> >>>>>> approximations of such instances.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That it sometimes hides false accusers, it's a small price to pay to
> >>>>> defend all the women who are survivors.
> >>>>
> >>>> A false alegation of Rape can ruin a man's life as completely as genuine
> >>>> rape
> >>>> can ruin a woman's
> >>>>
> >>>> Sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Any woman who files a false rape report is making it harder for all the
> >>> women who actually were raped and not believed. It's absolutely
> >>> despicable.
> >>>
> >>> They should spend the time in prison that a rapist would.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I wouldn't even go that far.  There are other charges that could and
> >> should be filed against such persons: perverting the course of justice
> >> and perjury spring to mind.
> >>
> >> At the very least she should be deprived of her anonymity, and she
> >> should be banned from profiting from her deeds (selling her stories to
> >> the media).
> >
> > I'll go along with that.
> >
> > I'm a little extra adamant on this because I've watched in frustration
> > for decades as rape victims were not taken seriously and were basically
> > raped again by the system.
> 
> Problem is, Jeanne, even when they are taken seriously, this is a crime 
> that is generally difficult and often impossible to prove.  Unless there 
> is clear evidence of violence, it boils down to a case of "he says, she 
> says" ... and then, it becomes little more than an exercise in character 
> assassination.
> 
> This is never going to change, either -- not unless you legally mandate 
> video surveillance for every single sex act.

That's why parents have to start teaching their sons the concept of 
consent and the fact that they're not entitled to sex.  They have to be 
taught that going on a date doesn't mean the woman has consented to sex. 
They have to be taught to control themselves so they stop the obscene 
"she deserved it" crap.

-- 

JD

"If ANYONE will not welcome you or listen to 
your words, LEAVE that home or town and shake 
the dust off your feet." Matthew 10:14

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#2070332

On 04/03/2016 23:47, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
> In article <djtppfFbsecU1@mid.individual.net>,
>   "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 03/03/2016 22:05, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
>>> In article <djqhp0FgbgsU2@mid.individual.net>,
>>>    "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 03/03/2016 00:32, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
>>>>> In article <part1of1.1.dXHr8G3CwGHgew@ue.ph>,
>>>>>     Malcolm McMahon <malcolm@theriomorph.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <djlvb8Fb9n9U1@mid.individual.net>,
>>>>>>> "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 01/03/2016 16:28, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Monday, 29 February 2016 04:12:56 UTC, Bill Tucker  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> By Megan McArdle How many women falsely accuse men of rape?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rape's tricky. Not the dragging into the bushes kind, but "date
>>>>>>>>> rape". Rape's tricky because it hinges on consent, which can be
>>>>>>>>> slippery and subjective impressions, which can, and often are, edited
>>>>>>>>> in recall because we want to write a better story.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which, by the sound of it, is what Julian Assange fell foul of.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I imagine that there are quite common instances where the man
>>>>>>>>> genuinely doesn't believe that what he did was rape, while the woman
>>>>>>>>> genuinely believes that it was.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Consequently it's impossible to even estimate how many accusations
>>>>>>>>> are false.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That aside, the men's names are quite commonly publicised in the press
>>>>>>>> whereas the women are permitted to remain anonymous.  In cases where a
>>>>>>>> prosecution fails or even in cases where it is clear that the woman has
>>>>>>>> made a false accusation, she continues to enjoy the protection of
>>>>>>>> anonymity.  This makes it all the harder to establish even reasonable
>>>>>>>> approximations of such instances.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That it sometimes hides false accusers, it's a small price to pay to
>>>>>>> defend all the women who are survivors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A false alegation of Rape can ruin a man's life as completely as genuine
>>>>>> rape
>>>>>> can ruin a woman's
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Any woman who files a false rape report is making it harder for all the
>>>>> women who actually were raped and not believed. It's absolutely
>>>>> despicable.
>>>>>
>>>>> They should spend the time in prison that a rapist would.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't even go that far.  There are other charges that could and
>>>> should be filed against such persons: perverting the course of justice
>>>> and perjury spring to mind.
>>>>
>>>> At the very least she should be deprived of her anonymity, and she
>>>> should be banned from profiting from her deeds (selling her stories to
>>>> the media).
>>>
>>> I'll go along with that.
>>>
>>> I'm a little extra adamant on this because I've watched in frustration
>>> for decades as rape victims were not taken seriously and were basically
>>> raped again by the system.
>>
>> Problem is, Jeanne, even when they are taken seriously, this is a crime
>> that is generally difficult and often impossible to prove.  Unless there
>> is clear evidence of violence, it boils down to a case of "he says, she
>> says" ... and then, it becomes little more than an exercise in character
>> assassination.
>>
>> This is never going to change, either -- not unless you legally mandate
>> video surveillance for every single sex act.
>
> That's why parents have to start teaching their sons the concept of
> consent and the fact that they're not entitled to sex.  They have to be
> taught that going on a date doesn't mean the woman has consented to sex.
> They have to be taught to control themselves so they stop the obscene
> "she deserved it" crap.
>

Sons?
What about daughters?

Both sexes have to be taught about consent.

And about compromise.

And about the differences in the sex drives between boys and girls.

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