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Re: Atheism is Witchcraft

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On 03/10/2016 12:25, Attila wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Oct 2016 13:46:16 +0000 (UTC), Smiler <smiler@jo.king> in
> alt.atheism with message-id <nsr338$h36$1@gioia.aioe.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 01 Oct 2016 20:49:12 -0400, Attila < wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 2 Oct 2016 10:40:15 +1100, "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> in
>>> alt.atheism with message-id <e5avr1F2monU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 01/10/2016 18:48, Attila wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 1 Oct 2016 14:53:17 +1000, "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> in
>>>>> alt.atheism with message-id <e58tq0FhoquU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 01/10/2016 13:16, Attila wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 1 Oct 2016 11:39:57 +1000, "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> in
>>>>>>> alt.atheism with message-id <e58ifgFfe6uU1@mid.individual.net>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 30/09/2016 21:41, Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 30 Sep 2016 00:43:08 -0700 (PDT), hhyapster@gmail.com in
>>>>>>>>> alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>> <1a078491-d220-4cbb-a5c4-ed35d4d921b7@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Communism is actually a just system, equality among all people.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It is unworkable outside of a small primitive community.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The communities do not have to be primitive, but yes, they have to
>>>>>>>> be small.  There is a practical size limit, dictated by Dunbar's
>>>>>>>> Number
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and by external pressures.  The more isolated and marginal a
>>>>>>>> community, the more important cooperation and sharing of resources
>>>>>>>> becomes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is also the issue of how to define "communism": of resources
>>>>>>>> only,
>>>>>>>> or of total egalitarianism in authority and hierarchical structures
>>>>>>>> as well?  It is one thing to share the working and harvest of
>>>>>>>> pastures and fields, it is quite another to sit down and have
>>>>>>>> communal discussion and agreement on every aspect of life....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The community must be small enough so that the members all know each
>>>>>>> other and can use social pressure to insure it works.  Since it is
>>>>>>> contrary to human nature it is unworkable in any extended society,
>>>>>>> as demonstrated wherever it has been tried.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A theoretical exception might be nomadic cultures: by the nature of
>>>>>> their lifestyle, it is not just difficult but actively problematic to
>>>>>> amass personal property.  But in general, yes, the size limitations
>>>>>> definitely hold true.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose one could posit a society composed entirely of small
>>>>>> communities ordered along practical communist (or at least socialist)
>>>>>> lines, but I rather doubt that without isolation from other cultures
>>>>>> such a setup could survive for any length of time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> It has been tried in history and has always failed once the society
>>>>> reached a certain size or a certain level of interaction with other
>>>>> societies.  Marx sounds great on the surface but it has proven to be
>>>>> unworkable on many levels.  The most famous problem of course was the
>>>>> one of transportation.
>>>>
>>>> Quite so.
>>>>
>>>> Which is not to say that there is no value or usefulness at all in such
>>>> a lifestyle.  Small communities may well benefit from applying such an
>>>> organisational model at least to a degree, as may groups of farmers or
>>>> other independent craftsmen, tradesmen or small businesses.  Ditto
>>>> students, retired people or others groups with small incomes: sharing
>>>> resources equally within a small group may benefit all of them.
>>>
>>> The benefits are limited,
>>
>> The benefits to whom? The 'communists' or the wider society?
>
> Both.

Limited, but tangible for the groups themselves.  Many of my friends and 
several of my relatives, for instance, committed to a temporary version 
of such a system while at university.  They came together with others 
and committed to equally share the costs and benefits of common housing, 
common food, common communications (internet, telephone etc), common 
resources (tooth-paste etc).  To them, the benefits were clear and 
substantial -- as, arguably, they were for their parents and to society 
at large.  By and large, these arrangements worked very well, possibly 
because all parties were clear that this was temporary.


>
>>
>>> of short duration,
>>
>> The kibbutzim in Israel have lasted nearly 70 years. Hardly a short
>> duration.
>
> Nor are they pure communism.

Which is correct but a fairly pointless point to score.

All ideologies, whether political, religious or economic, are rooted in 
an *idea*.  They are all expressions of idealism.  We might as well 
criticise democracy because there is and cannot be a pure form of 
democracy as a political and social organisation outside very small 
groups.

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Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2016-09-17 19:42 -0500
  Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-18 06:50 +0200
    Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2016-09-17 23:24 -0700
      Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-18 20:14 +0200
        Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-18 15:06 -0400
          Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-30 06:33 +0200
            Re: Atheism is Witchcraft The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-09-29 23:27 -0700
              Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-30 02:59 -0400
              Re: Atheism is Witchcraft hhyapster@gmail.com - 2016-09-30 00:43 -0700
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-30 07:41 -0400
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-10-01 11:39 +1000
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-30 23:16 -0400
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-10-01 14:53 +1000
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-10-01 04:48 -0400
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-10-02 10:40 +1100
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-10-01 20:49 -0400
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-10-02 13:46 +0000
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-10-02 23:14 +0000
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-10-03 12:15 +1100
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-10-02 21:25 -0400
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-10-03 13:43 +1100
              Re: Atheism is Witchcraft The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-09-30 11:48 -0700
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-10-01 10:10 -0700
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-10-01 10:42 -0700
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft hhyapster@gmail.com - 2016-10-01 19:09 -0700
            Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-30 02:54 -0400
              Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2016-09-30 02:06 -0500
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-09-30 11:17 -0700
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2016-09-30 14:07 -0500
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-30 23:11 -0400
              Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-10-01 08:52 +0200
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-10-01 05:00 -0400
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-10-02 07:39 +0200
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-10-02 02:24 -0400
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2016-10-02 11:53 +0000
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-10-02 09:01 -0400
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-10-02 18:02 +0200
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-10-02 11:02 -0700
                Re: Atheism is Witchcraft hhyapster@gmail.com - 2016-10-02 19:33 -0700

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