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Groups > alt.atheism > #2171388
| From | "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | alt.atheism, sci.physics.relativity |
| Subject | Re: Atheism is Witchcraft |
| Date | 2016-09-21 09:30 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <e4dv50F3m1sU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink) |
| References | (12 earlier) <e47lsgFi1umU1@mid.individual.net> <e48o3lFq3qsU1@mid.individual.net> <e48t57Fr5voU1@mid.individual.net> <e49dnoF296U1@mid.individual.net> <e49gcaFl3tU1@mid.individual.net> |
Cross-posted to 2 groups.
On 19/09/2016 16:53, Thomas Heger wrote:
> Am 19.09.2016 08:08, schrieb Alex W.:
>
>>> It would be 'state crime', if you allow usual people to take part in an
>>> execution.
>>
>> That is a moral judgment, not a legal one.
>>
> Yes. Somehow should laws represent moral judgements.
>
> It is necessary to allow people to act legally. This is easier to
> achieve, if their moral judgements would not contradict the legal
> principles.
Which is impossible. For practical purposes alone, the law will always
end up being out of step with morality. Our moral consensus is changing
all the time, but the law is only ever a snapshot.
A point in case: anti-nuclear activism in Germany frequently breaks the
law. Activists will trespass, hinder the lawful activities of others,
threaten or damage private property. It may be moral (at least from
their point of view), but it is also quite illegal.
>
> Usually people are capable of moral judgements, since they act in the
> way like:
> ' what you do not want to be done with you, you do not do to others'.
That is the golden rule, and if we all lived by it there would be far
fewer problems in this world.
Unfortunately, they do not.
A great many people will act to their own best interest first and
foremost, unless they suspect they may be caught.
>
> Another principle is what Kant called 'kathegorischer Imperativ'.
>
> this means roughly: an activity is justified, if you could (in
> principle) release a law, that demands doing this by everybody all the
> time.
>
> And theft - for instance - is illegal, because stealing by everybody all
> the time would create a state, where all the people have nothing.
>
> And killing is not allowed, because the equivalent law would leave no
> survivors.
Actually, it would by definition leave at least one survivor.
Moreover, there is a world of difference between making theft or killing
legal and forcing us to engage in these acts. Just because it may be
legal to kill a gypsy does not mean we have to kill them. Just because
it may be legal to take another man's bicycle does not mean we are
obliged by law to do so.
>
>>>
>>> And usual people may not take part, even if the state allows this.
>>>
>>> To demand participation makes matters worse, since it demands from
>>> innocent people to commit a crime.
>>
>> To start with, it is a fair assumption that no-one is innocent. We all
>> break the law.
>>
>> This makes "innocent" not only a term devoid of intrinsic meaning, but
>> also a direct emotional appeal rather than a factual description that is
>> part of a cogent argument.
>
> If someone has not committed a crime, the person is innocent.
>
> The state creates laws, which make clear to the people, what is allowed
> and what is not.
>
> These laws should be clear, easy to understand and universally valid.
Dream on.
Two words: tax law.
>
> And they should match the ethics and moral of the people and what they
> believe is right or wrong.
Which they do not, and effectively cannot do. Any law has to be
drafted, debated, amended, debated again, voted on and ratified. This
can easily take years ... for every single law. In the time that a
proposal has become the law of the land, the facts on the ground as well
as the moral consensus of the people may well have moved beyond that,
making the law outdated and possibly even inappropriate.
Not to mention those fast-developing situations where a law may not
exist to cover new situations, such as most problems involving the
internet or bio-ethical concerns.
>
> This is so, because then less activities are criminal, since usual
> habits are also legal.
Not automatically, by a far shot. The official speed limit on British
motorways is 70MPH, or 115KPH -- but the police do not bother to enforce
speeding below 80-85MPH, making our driving behaviour formally illegal.
The same applies to pedestrians crossing any street other than at any
official pedestrian crossings (aka "jaywalking") ... and yet, that is
what we all of us do on a habitual basis.
>
> Now the question is, what kind of crimes would require death penalty?
>
> In Germany we do not have such punishment at all.
>
> But in other nations we have crimes like murder, which are punished by
> death.
>
> Now we need to estimate, which degree of deviation from somehow accepted
> standards of behaviour would justify such a punishment.
>
> Certainly there are a lot of misconducts, we would not punish by death.
> But which would we punish this way?
>
> Most likely only those crimes, that are totally unforgivable and all
> others not.
>
> If now - besides murder - false parking is also punished by death, than
> something is wrong with the state and it's laws.
Something would be wrong with that state, yes.
But it would be a moral issue, and a political one -- but not
necessarily a legal one.
As you are German (I presume), you should be familiar with this
situation. After all, the Nazis' Machtergreifung was morally abhorrent
but formally legal and above board.
>
> That would actually be a 'state crime', since punishment and crime have
> no rational connection. In such a case, all participants are also
> criminals.
As I have pointed out to Attila: we are all criminals. In this day and
age, it is quite impossible for any citizen not to break some law in
some fashion.
>
>> Moreover, we still all participate in the punishment of wrongdoers. In
>> Western societies, the exercise of justice is delegated to the state but
>> is always undertaken in the name of the people. You can go into any
>> German court and you will never hear a criminal verdict read out that
>> does not begin with the sentence "Im Namen des Volkes ergeht folgendes
>> Urteil". The difference to communal participation is merely one of
>> direct versus indirect action.
>>
>
> Well, laws and legal procedures are necessary. And judges speak in the
> name of the people.
>
> But judges do not commit unjustified violence against innocent people.
> It is their profession to bring justice.
No, it is not. It is their remit to enact the law -- not dispense
justice. Law ("Recht") and justice ("Gerechtigkeit") are NOT the same
thing.
This is actually the root of the Anglo-Saxon jury system which you so
disparage. The judge can only speak to the law. He can only deliver a
verdict in accordance with the law. A jury, by contrast, can deliver a
verdict of justice which may or may not accord with the law. This is
the one thing that Roman/Napoleonic jurisprudence cannot do: they are
bound by law to enact the law, whatever the circumstances. A British or
American jury could have convicted Armin Melwes, the cannibal from
Rothenburg, of his crime even though there was no law against
cannibalism at the time (they had to make do with desecration of the
corpse, or "Störung der Totenruhe"). Conversely, a jury can -- and has
done so -- exercise justice and act in conformity with the moral
consensus in defiance of the law of the land in cases where the law
requires conviction and punishment from a judge, such as clear cases of
assisted suicide.
>
>>>
>>> In case the state (illegally) demands it, the participant acts against
>>> certain ethical principles and is only committing a sin.
>>
>> Where a state which enjoys the legitimacy of public approval institutes
>> such laws and procedures, they cannot be illegal. You may well regard
>> them as immoral, but that is a different matter altogether.
>
> Actually I do not agree.
>
> I'm German and we had extensive problems with 'state sponsored terror'
> in Germany.
>
> This terror was in fact legal the sense of being allowed by law.
>
> But how will you judge - for instance - the destruction of Lidice?
>
> Do you really claim, that execution of hostages was legal, because the
> laws said so?
>
> So we cannot allow the state to allow terror.
Of course it was legal. It was not moral or ethical. This is the
difference you seem unable to grasp.
And yes, this is a very serious and thorny issue with which nations and
the international community as a whole has been grappling for a long
time now. Developing mechanisms for stopping or at least addressing the
moral -- not legal -- crimes of that period were the major impetus
behind a whole raft of international treaties, agreements and
conventions on human rights, conduct in war and legitimate behaviour by
nations. We realised we could no longer allow states to act with
perfect impunity and total sovereignty when it comes to these issues.
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Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-18 04:26 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-18 16:15 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-18 11:29 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-19 09:59 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-19 03:25 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Wisely Non-Theist <aaa@bbb.ccc> - 2016-09-18 20:56 -0600
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft hhyapster@gmail.com - 2016-09-19 00:37 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-19 00:48 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-19 16:11 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-19 15:28 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-20 11:37 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-19 23:11 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-21 12:12 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-21 03:57 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-21 19:14 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-21 10:37 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-22 09:28 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-09-22 00:12 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-22 03:50 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-22 18:17 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2016-09-22 02:19 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-22 10:13 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-23 12:37 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-23 14:59 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-24 10:35 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-25 05:55 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-25 05:13 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-25 19:20 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-25 17:16 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-26 06:44 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-09-25 22:40 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-26 17:56 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-26 23:09 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-27 19:02 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-27 20:23 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-28 10:18 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-28 03:34 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-28 11:41 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-28 20:34 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-28 04:48 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Bob Officer <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-09-28 18:10 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-29 10:07 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-29 08:04 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-27 06:43 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-27 19:06 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2016-09-27 05:08 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Dreamer In Colore <dreamerincolore@hotmail.com> - 2016-09-27 20:28 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-09-28 01:17 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Olrik <olrik666@gmail.com> - 2016-09-27 23:55 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-09-28 15:04 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Dreamer In Colore <dreamerincolore@hotmail.com> - 2016-09-28 16:06 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-09-29 00:03 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Olrik <olrik666@gmail.com> - 2016-09-29 00:38 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Olrik <olrik666@gmail.com> - 2016-09-29 00:37 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-09-29 15:48 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Olrik <olrik666@gmail.com> - 2016-09-29 23:59 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-28 11:50 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2016-09-27 22:30 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-09-28 14:58 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Dreamer In Colore <dreamerincolore@hotmail.com> - 2016-09-28 16:07 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Dreamer In Colore <dreamerincolore@hotmail.com> - 2016-09-28 16:02 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-09-27 10:07 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft hhyapster@gmail.com - 2016-09-27 18:10 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-19 16:08 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-19 08:53 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-19 15:36 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-20 17:27 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-20 10:33 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2016-09-20 09:40 -0500
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-21 03:58 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-21 12:05 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-21 04:10 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-09-19 20:31 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-19 23:14 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-09-20 00:15 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-20 11:51 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-19 23:14 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-20 23:38 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-09-20 22:31 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft hhyapster@gmail.com - 2016-09-21 01:20 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Serigo <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-09-21 05:43 -0500
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-09-21 14:27 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Serigo <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-09-21 10:09 -0500
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-09-21 11:07 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-21 04:16 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-21 21:42 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-21 16:22 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-22 10:11 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-22 08:34 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-09-21 23:55 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft hhyapster@gmail.com - 2016-09-22 17:50 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-22 17:37 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-22 22:23 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-23 12:38 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-25 06:20 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2016-09-22 02:28 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-22 22:11 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Les Hellawell <les@shant.tell> - 2016-09-22 22:25 +0100
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-23 04:36 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-23 16:18 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Olrik <olrik666@gmail.com> - 2016-09-23 02:38 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-23 18:20 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-23 09:30 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-23 18:17 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2016-09-23 02:31 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-24 10:47 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2016-09-23 18:43 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-24 04:29 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-24 17:29 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Wisely Non-Theist <aaa@bbb.ccc> - 2016-09-23 23:20 -0600
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-09-23 16:16 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-23 15:05 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Bob Officer <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-09-24 02:22 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-09-24 16:26 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Bob Officer <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-09-25 05:32 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-09-25 15:50 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Bob Officer <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-09-25 21:42 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-09-26 01:05 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2016-09-22 15:30 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2016-09-22 18:14 -0500
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2016-09-21 17:36 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "%" <persent@gmail.com> - 2016-09-21 17:55 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Bob Officer <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-09-22 01:16 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-22 04:02 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-22 17:41 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-22 10:18 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-23 11:26 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-23 04:51 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2016-09-22 22:53 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-23 16:35 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Bob Officer <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-09-24 02:22 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Cloud Hobbit <youngblood2949@gmail.com> - 2016-09-24 17:08 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2016-09-24 18:33 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Cloud Hobbit <youngblood2949@gmail.com> - 2016-09-24 19:39 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2016-09-22 22:52 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2016-09-23 09:53 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Les Hellawell <les@shant.tell> - 2016-09-23 12:52 +0100
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2016-09-23 21:49 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-21 09:30 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2016-09-20 20:12 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft John Ritson <j.ritson@hotmail.co.uk> - 2016-09-21 21:47 +0100
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