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Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe

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On 03/06/2016 20:57, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> On Thursday, 2 June 2016 01:53:17 UTC+1, Alex W.  wrote:
>> On 01/06/2016 23:18, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, 1 June 2016 13:29:04 UTC+1, Wise TibetanMonkey,
>>> Most Humble Philosopher  wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 5:46:10 AM UTC-4, Malcolm
>>>> McMahon wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> When you're a small country, there really isn't any
>>>>> realistic option of complete independence. The best you can
>>>>> hope is to decide which gang you join.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's still no such thing as the "international
>>>>> community", it's more like the "international wolf-pack".
>>>>
>>>> That's the very reason the EU has lost its sense of morality.
>>>> Their land grab of Ukraine sounds like a coup.
>>>
>>> Flawed as it is, I think the EU represents the only credible
>>> route to creating a genuine international community other than an
>>> Empire, which tends to be the property of a single country with
>>> all other nations just subjects.
>>
>> If so, it's a sorry excuse for a solution.
>
> Got a better idea.

Look at EFTA and the EEA.

What brings people together, defuses tensions and avoids wars is common 
interests and common benefits.  This can be achieved by improving trade. 
  Free trade, harmonised industrial standards and the free flow of 
capital will deliver benefits for all without having to mess with trying 
to achieve political unity.

The persistent and fundamental problem with the EU is that it is driven 
by politics, not economics.  The money pit of agricultural policy and 
subsidies only exists because it is a political tool.  The Euro crisis 
only came about because of political decisions to let countries join the 
single currency which would have been deemed too high a risk for 
wonga.com .... and further political decisions to prop up those 
countries with hundreds of billions because their continued 
participation in the Euro was a political not an economic imperative. 
Unrestricted unqualified freedom of movement across the EU was not 
economic but political, too -- and we have a tidal wave of refugees and 
migrants as a result.  One central bank setting one single EU-wide 
interest rate was a purely political decision: it makes no economic 
sense whatsoever to do so for a collection of national economies with 
vastly diverging economic cycles and pressures.


>
>>
>> For a start, once you go down that route the only logical place is
>> "ever closer union" -- federation, in other words.  This imperative
>> puts paid to the idea of an "international community".
>>
>
> It's not really any different from the compromises individuals make
> in being part of a civilisation. In any society there are pressures
> towards enforced conformity in some kind of balance with the drive to
> individuality and personal interests.

A community is not a union.  Where is the benefit of forcing the British 
Isles to abandon a millennium of legal traditions in favour of a 
continental approach rooted in the Napoleonic code -- or vice versa? 
Unrestricted freedom of movement and residence may sound good on paper, 
but in practice they put undue pressure on nations with high density 
such as the UK or the Netherlands -- pressure and tensions that cannot 
be relieved because there are no mechanisms for regulating such 
migrations.


>
>> Secondly, many of the difficulties experienced by the EU is the
>> simple fact that it is still structured along notions of a
>> community, giving ever larger numbers of nation equal say and
>> requiring either huge majorities or even unanimity for major policy
>> decisions.  This is quite unworkable in the long run.  There need
>> to be leaders.  Currently, this is Germany ... but they are, for
>> historical reasons, quite reluctant to take on the role and flex
>> their muscles as it is needful.
>>
>
> In all organisations de-facto leaders emerge, but the kind of power
> they exert varies.
>
>>
>>>
>>> It doesn't need to force any nation to join, they join for the
>>> prospect of economic benefits. The prospect of possible entry
>>> pressure nations towards standards of rule of law, democracy and
>>> open society which most of us consider essential. Plenty of
>>> people complain of a lack of democracy within the EU, but you
>>> need to understand it's a society composed of nations, more than
>>> of people, and its the national governments (in the council of
>>> ministers) who have the ultimate decision making authority. The
>>> hated commission is the civil service, ultimately they must
>>> implement the decisions of the council of ministers.
>>
>> I would beg to differ.  We are at a stage where the majority of
>> legislation passed by national governments is merely the
>> implementation of decisions and directives emanating from
>> Brussels.
>>
>> There is also the issue that nations are pressured towards certain
>>  standards of the rule of law ... but that they are admitted
>> without having achieved them.  Once in, this pressure to conform
>> largely falls away.  Human rights?  Ask a gypsy in Rumania or
>> Hungary.  Freedom of the press?  Ask a Hungarian journalist.
>> Government accountability and transparency?  Let's talk about
>> Greece.
>>
>
> And individuals cheat on social rules. But, for the most part, peer
> pressure pushes them back in line.

So let peer pressure do its job.  Why set and enforce artificial 
standards from above?


>
> As a last resort there's the ECHR.
>
> Look. I'm not saying the EU is perfect, I'm saying that pan=national
> organisations of this kind are the best bet to create a genuine
> international community.
>
> Without them, you are in the wolf pack, and a world of competing
> nations with WMDs is like a wolf-pack with guns. Doomed.
>

We have international bodies, international laws and international 
institutions.  They may often be less effective than one might wish, but 
by and large they do improve international affairs and cooperation.  And 
they do so without an international legislative body imposing rules.

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Thread

America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-05-30 09:23 -0700
  Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-05-30 09:43 -0700
    Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-05-30 10:07 -0700
  Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.mc74@googlemail.com> - 2016-05-31 08:37 -0700
    Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2016-05-31 11:06 -0500
      Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-06-01 10:07 +1000
    Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 13:49 -0700
      Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.mc74@googlemail.com> - 2016-06-01 02:46 -0700
        Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 05:29 -0700
          Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.mc74@googlemail.com> - 2016-06-01 06:18 -0700
            Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 09:05 -0700
              Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 14:44 -0700
            Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-06-02 10:53 +1000
              Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 20:31 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 10:04 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 16:55 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 17:02 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 17:40 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 12:34 -0700
              Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.mc74@googlemail.com> - 2016-06-03 03:57 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-06-04 10:38 +1000
            Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu> - 2016-06-02 15:30 +0000
              Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.mc74@googlemail.com> - 2016-06-03 03:43 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu> - 2016-06-03 10:58 +0000
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.mc74@googlemail.com> - 2016-06-03 04:10 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu> - 2016-06-03 12:20 +0000
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 05:23 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.mc74@googlemail.com> - 2016-06-03 05:49 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 06:24 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 06:27 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.mc74@googlemail.com> - 2016-06-03 08:57 -0700
  Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 17:16 -0700
    Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 17:42 -0700
      Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 17:51 -0700
  Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 17:53 -0700
  Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 12:39 -0700
  Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 12:41 -0700
    Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 13:43 -0700
      Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 13:58 -0700
        Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 17:30 -0700
      Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 17:25 -0700
        Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-04 04:31 -0700
          Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-04 04:50 -0700
            Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-04 04:59 -0700
          Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-06-04 16:49 -0700
            Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-04 19:50 -0700

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