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Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe

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On 01/06/2016 23:18, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> On Wednesday, 1 June 2016 13:29:04 UTC+1, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
> Humble Philosopher  wrote:
>> On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 5:46:10 AM UTC-4, Malcolm McMahon
>> wrote:


>>>
>>> When you're a small country, there really isn't any realistic
>>> option of complete independence. The best you can hope is to
>>> decide which gang you join.
>>>
>>> There's still no such thing as the "international community",
>>> it's more like the "international wolf-pack".
>>
>> That's the very reason the EU has lost its sense of morality. Their
>> land grab of Ukraine sounds like a coup.
>
> Flawed as it is, I think the EU represents the only credible route to
> creating a genuine international community other than an Empire,
> which tends to be the property of a single country with all other
> nations just subjects.

If so, it's a sorry excuse for a solution.

For a start, once you go down that route the only logical place is "ever 
closer union" -- federation, in other words.  This imperative puts paid 
to the idea of an "international community".

Secondly, many of the difficulties experienced by the EU is the simple 
fact that it is still structured along notions of a community, giving 
ever larger numbers of nation equal say and requiring either huge 
majorities or even unanimity for major policy decisions.  This is quite 
unworkable in the long run.  There need to be leaders.  Currently, this 
is Germany ... but they are, for historical reasons, quite reluctant to 
take on the role and flex their muscles as it is needful.


>
> It doesn't need to force any nation to join, they join for the
> prospect of economic benefits. The prospect of possible entry
> pressure nations towards standards of rule of law, democracy and open
> society which most of us consider essential. Plenty of people
> complain of a lack of democracy within the EU, but you need to
> understand it's a society composed of nations, more than of people,
> and its the national governments (in the council of ministers) who
> have the ultimate decision making authority. The hated commission is
> the civil service, ultimately they must implement the decisions of
> the council of ministers.

I would beg to differ.  We are at a stage where the majority of 
legislation passed by national governments is merely the implementation 
of decisions and directives emanating from Brussels.

There is also the issue that nations are pressured towards certain 
standards of the rule of law ... but that they are admitted without 
having achieved them.  Once in, this pressure to conform largely falls 
away.  Human rights?  Ask a gypsy in Rumania or Hungary.  Freedom of the 
press?  Ask a Hungarian journalist.  Government accountability and 
transparency?  Let's talk about Greece.


>
> National governments simply wouldn't join if the EU was another route
> for the people of their nations to override them, to go over their
> heads.

Governments and their people are persuaded to join by the prospect of 
easy access to the fleshpots of the EU.  Once in, they discover that 
they are expected to hand over large portions of their sovereignty and 
self-determination.  This is what a fair proportion of the EU 
electorates object to.

Nor is this helped by a nasty habit of national governments to join up 
without bothering to fully explain not only the benefits but also the 
costs of membership.

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America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-05-30 09:23 -0700
  Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-05-30 09:43 -0700
    Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-05-30 10:07 -0700
  Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.mc74@googlemail.com> - 2016-05-31 08:37 -0700
    Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2016-05-31 11:06 -0500
      Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-06-01 10:07 +1000
    Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 13:49 -0700
      Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.mc74@googlemail.com> - 2016-06-01 02:46 -0700
        Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 05:29 -0700
          Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.mc74@googlemail.com> - 2016-06-01 06:18 -0700
            Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 09:05 -0700
              Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 14:44 -0700
            Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-06-02 10:53 +1000
              Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 20:31 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 10:04 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 16:55 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 17:02 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 17:40 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 12:34 -0700
              Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.mc74@googlemail.com> - 2016-06-03 03:57 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-06-04 10:38 +1000
            Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu> - 2016-06-02 15:30 +0000
              Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.mc74@googlemail.com> - 2016-06-03 03:43 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu> - 2016-06-03 10:58 +0000
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.mc74@googlemail.com> - 2016-06-03 04:10 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu> - 2016-06-03 12:20 +0000
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 05:23 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.mc74@googlemail.com> - 2016-06-03 05:49 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 06:24 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 06:27 -0700
                Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.mc74@googlemail.com> - 2016-06-03 08:57 -0700
  Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 17:16 -0700
    Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 17:42 -0700
      Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 17:51 -0700
  Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 17:53 -0700
  Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 12:39 -0700
  Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 12:41 -0700
    Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 13:43 -0700
      Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 13:58 -0700
        Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 17:30 -0700
      Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 17:25 -0700
        Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-04 04:31 -0700
          Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-04 04:50 -0700
            Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-04 04:59 -0700
          Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe Kurt Kurt <passerby31416@gmail.com> - 2016-06-04 16:49 -0700
            Re: America was sneaky in expanding NATO into Eastern Europe "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher" <thetibetanmonkey@gmail.com> - 2016-06-04 19:50 -0700

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