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This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave

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  This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave a425couple <a425couple@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-08 08:14 -0700
    Re: This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> - 2026-10-08 18:15 -0400
      Re: This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave R Kym Horsell <kym@sdf.org> - 2026-10-09 00:46 +0000
        Re: This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> - 2026-10-08 21:13 -0400
          Re: This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave Daniel <me@fuhgitabutit.com> - 2026-10-12 19:38 -0700
            Re: This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave R Kym Horsell <kym@sdf.org> - 2026-10-13 03:30 +0000
              Re: This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> - 2026-10-13 10:08 -0400
              Re: This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave Daniel <me@fuhgitabutit.com> - 2026-10-13 09:57 -0700
                Re: This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> - 2026-10-13 16:08 -0400
                Re: This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> - 2026-10-14 10:11 -0400
                  Re: This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave R Kym Horsell <kym@sdf.org> - 2026-10-14 16:32 +0000
                  Re: This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave Daniel <me@fuhgitabutit.com> - 2026-10-14 14:14 -0700
                    Re: This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave R Kym Horsell <kym@sdf.org> - 2026-10-18 05:25 +0000
                      Re: This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> - 2026-10-18 07:10 -0400
                        Re: This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave R Kym Horsell <kym@sdf.org> - 2026-10-18 19:53 +0000
                          Re: This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> - 2026-10-18 18:01 -0400
                            Re: This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave R Kym Horsell <kym@sdf.org> - 2026-10-19 00:23 +0000
                              Re: This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 08:04 -0400
                                Re: This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:33 -0400
                  Re: This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> - 2026-10-14 18:42 -0400
                    Re: This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave Daniel <me@fuhgitabutit.com> - 2026-10-17 10:40 -0700
                  Re: This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave Rockinghorse Winner <Rockinghorse@amgen.com> - 2026-10-18 02:38 +0000
                Re: This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave Rockinghorse Winner <Rockinghorse@amgen.com> - 2026-10-18 02:37 +0000

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#313700 — This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave

Really?

from
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2026/10/261003234013.htm

This mysterious hole on the Moon may open into a giant cave
Date:
October 5, 2026
Source:
Planetary Science Institute
Summary:
NASA has selected the GIMLI project to investigate whether the Marius 
Hill Pit opens into a vast underground cave or lava tube. Using radar, 
seismic sensors, gravity measurements, and cameras, researchers will 
search beneath the lunar surface and estimate the size of any hidden 
void. Such caves could preserve clues to the Moon’s volcanic history and 
potentially provide protected shelters for future astronauts.
Share:

FULL STORY
NASA Hunts for a Hidden Moon Cave
The Marius Hills Pit (MHP) on the surface of the Moon. MHP will be 
studied by PSI-led GIMLI, through the NASA PRISM program, to investigate 
a possible lava tube beneath the surface. Credit: NASA/GSFC/Arizona 
State University

NASA has chosen a proposal led by the Planetary Science Institute to 
determine whether a potentially large cave stretches underground from 
the opening of a pit on the Moon. If such a cavern exists, it could 
eventually offer astronauts natural protection from radiation and the 
dramatic temperature changes experienced on the lunar surface.

The project will receive funding through NASA's Payloads and Research 
Investigations on the Surface of the Moon (PRISM) program. PRISM sends 
scientific instruments to the lunar surface aboard spacecraft supplied 
by providers participating in the Commercial Lunar Payloads Services 
(CLPS) initiative.

GIMLI Will Probe Beneath the Moon

The selected project, known as the Geophysical Instruments for Marius 
Lunar pit Investigation, or GIMLI, is led by PSI Associate Director and 
Senior Scientist Than Putzig. PSI is working with Honeybee Robotics, 
which will construct much of the mission's equipment and 
instrumentation. The instruments will travel aboard a lander and rover 
supplied through the CLPS initiative. PSI's work will also be conducted 
in partnership with the Norwegian Space Agency.

"GIMLI represents the type of ambitious planetary science that PSI was 
built to pursue," said PSI Director and CEO Amanda Hendrix. "Than and 
his team are taking a scientific question we've been studying from orbit 
and have developed a way to investigate it directly on the Moon. We're 
excited to have PSI leading this effort and to be partnering with NASA 
and Honeybee Robotics to learn more about the Moon and its volcanic past."

Scientists studying the Moon from orbit have found compelling evidence 
that caves and lava tubes could be hidden beneath its surface. GIMLI 
will concentrate on the Marius Hill Pit (MHP), a large opening located 
within one of the Moon's most volcanically varied regions. Like other 
pits identified on the Moon, MHP could provide an entrance into 
underground structures created by ancient volcanic activity.

Rather than relying only on observations from above, GIMLI will give 
researchers an opportunity to examine MHP directly from the lunar surface.

Radar and Seismic Sensors Will Search for a Lava Tube

"It's long been a desire of mine to reintroduce intentional 
active-source seismic methods to planetary science, as it has 
essentially not been done since the Apollo astronauts conducted the 
first seismic surveys on the Moon," shared Putzig. "Combining that 
method with ground-penetrating radar and gravity measurements makes it 
all the more exciting, as these methods together will allow us to get a 
much better understanding of subsurface properties -- including the 
anticipated detection of a lava tube extending away from the Marius 
Hills pit."

To investigate what lies underground, GIMLI will combine ground 
penetrating radar, seismic sensors, and a gravimeter. Cameras will also 
photograph the lunar surface and the exposed walls of the pit. Used 
together, these instruments will search for a possible underground void 
extending from MHP and, if one is detected, help scientists estimate its 
dimensions.

Honeybee Robotics, a Blue Origin company, will be PSI's commercial 
partner on the project. The company will provide project management 
services and construct instrumentation for the active source seismic 
system, the gravimeter, and the cameras. Honeybee Robotics will also 
help integrate the scientific instruments onto the lander and rover. 
Along with PSI, it will lead instrument operations after the spacecraft 
reaches the lunar surface.

Even No Cave Would Reveal New Lunar Geology

The mission could still produce important discoveries even if 
researchers find no cave or lava tube. Its measurements could help 
address another major question: How did the Marius Hill Pit form?

By examining the material surrounding and beneath MHP, scientists could 
gain new clues about the pit's origin as well as the geology and 
volcanic history of the wider region.

The team also plans to study more than the possible underground 
structure. The surrounding area has experienced a long history of 
volcanic activity, and the walls of MHP expose layers of regolith and 
lava flows that normally remain buried. Examining these layers could 
show how lava once moved across and beneath the lunar landscape and 
whether individual eruptions were separated by long intervals.

Lunar pits are valuable not only because their walls expose otherwise 
hidden geology. Any underground spaces connected to them could also 
preserve evidence of the volcanic processes that helped shape the Moon.

A Window Into the Moon's Volcanic Past

"Confirming a substantial lava tube would give us an insight into how 
volcanism operated on the Moon," explained Gareth Morgan, PSI Senior 
Scientist and Deputy Principal Investigator on the GIMLI program. "Lava 
tubes are a common feature of basaltic volcanism on Earth, so 
identifying them on the Moon means we could use knowledge of such 
terrestrial caves to better understand lunar history."



In addition to PSI and Honeybee Robotics, the GIMLI team includes 
Co-Investigators from Boise State University, Johns Hopkins University, 
the Lunar and Planetary Institute, and the University of Oslo. The 
Norwegian Space Agency will provide the ground-penetrating radar.

RELATED TOPICS

Materials provided by Planetary Science Institute. Note: Content may be 
edited for style and length.

Cite This Page:
MLA
APA
Chicago
Planetary Science Institute. "This mysterious hole on the Moon may open 
into a giant cave." ScienceDaily. ScienceDaily, 5 October 2026. 
<www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2026/10/261003234013.htm>.

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#313702

"a425couple"  wrote in message news:prOxS.172151$U_e2.43509@fx24.iad...

Such caves could preserve clues to the Moon’s volcanic history and
potentially provide protected shelters for future astronauts.

---------------------------
Arthur Clarke and Stanley Kubrick transformed cavemen into astronauts in 
"2001", now NASA would reverse it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sentinel_(short_story)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood%27s_End

This mostly clarifies the movie:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001:_A_Space_Odyssey_(novel)

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#313703

Jim Wilkins:
|"a425couple"  wrote in message news:prOxS.172151$U_e2.43509@fx24.iad...
|Such caves could preserve clues to the Moon???s volcanic history and
|potentially provide protected shelters for future astronauts.
|---------------------------
|Arthur Clarke and Stanley Kubrick transformed cavemen into astronauts in 
|"2001", now NASA would reverse it.
|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sentinel_(short_story)
|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood%27s_End
|This mostly clarifies the movie:
|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001:_A_Space_Odyssey_(novel)


Even Pluto is suspected of having a buried liquid water ocean.
Charon is suspected of at least once having a subterranean ocean.
If KBO's are similar, and given the other gas giants have a dozen
moons suspected of current salty oceans, it may turn out to be
living underground is normal and Earth is the odd guy out having 
lots of action on the surface.

-- 
First possible evidence of Planet Nine found in infrared data
The News International, 5 Oct 2026 13:43

[Negative Feedback!]
Hurricane Isaias Shuts In 1.28 Million Bpd of Gulf Oil Production
[About 2/3 of normal output] 
OilPrice.com, 9 Oct 2026 07:10
Hurricane Isaias has knocked 1.28 million barrels per day of U.S. Gulf
oil production offline, up from just 185,120 bpd two days ago as
operators clear personnel from the storm's path.

Exxon Stocks Decrease as Supreme Court Tests Climate Shield
Yahoo Finance, 8 Oct 2026 23:46 
The court heard arguments on October 5 in Suncor Energy v. Commissioners of 
Boulder County, docket 25-170. Exxon and Suncor argue that federal law 
blocks Boulder's state claims. Boulder argues it ...

[Single Point of Failure:]
NT government departments hit by massive network outage
ABC News, 8 Oct 2026 at 8:51pm
A massive network outage interrupted all government departments in
the Northern Territory today, affecting services from hospital to
police systems.

Drones hit Yandex site in first major attack on Russian data hub
Reuters, 8 Oct 2026 09:02

'I'm not bragging': Trump makes last-minute play for Nobel Peace Prize
USA Today, 7 Oct 2026 22:42

Quantum computing shortcut makes particle collisions easier to simulate
Phys.org, 7 Oct 2026 09:51

[Amplification!]
First observation of quantum spins shifting a centimeter-scale 
object in the lab
Phys.org, 7 Oct 2026 21:50

[Low IQ Is Contagious!]
Scientists discover a human brain gene that can jump through DNA
ScienceDaily, 4 Oct 2026 13:49

[Protect The Hive!]
Viewing honey bee colonies as superorganisms could reshape beekeeping practices
Phys.org, 7 Oct 2026 13:48

1,000-mile-long cloud that forms and vanishes on Mars every day obeys 
'exotic physics' never seen on Earth
Live Science, 7 Oct 2026 19:47

[Correcting The Record:]
James Watson Suggested Rosalind Franklin Missed the DNA Double Helix. Her 
Notes Say Otherwise
Gizmodo, 7 Oct 2026 13:46

Scientists identify a crocodile they never knew existed
The Washington Post, 7 Oct 2026 19:42

How climate extremes are pushing Chicago's lake, rivers, and underground
water system to the limit
TDC on MSN, 8 Oct 2026 02:25
Chicago's massive underground water storage network was built to handle the
worst storms, but record lake levels and ...

Fossil of 'platypus-like' animal from dinosaur era unearthed in China
ABC News, 8 Oct 2026
Scientists have found the earliest-known fossil of a mammal-like
animal that lived more than 160 million years ago in the
mid-Jurassic period and may have hunted fish and salamander.

South Korean megachurches investigate suspected cyberattacks affecting
hundreds of thousands
Fox Business, 7 Oct 2026 13:00

[Not Preparing To Use Biological Weapons!]
Russian Plague Scare: WHO Seeks Details About Reported Second Illness As
Trump Plans Putin Call
Forbes, 7 Oct 2026 14:27

Quantum interactions may have locked early universe's fields into
existing energy states
Phys.org, 6 Oct 2026

Bacteria regulate collective behaviour by mechanosensing cell-cell collisions
Nature, 6 Oct 2026 07:16

Primordial magnetic fields may ease the Hubble tension - ScienceDaily
UA.NEWS, 5 Oct 2026

[Self-similarity!]
Scientists uncover recurrent patterns within chaotic quantum behavior
Phys.org, 5 Oct 2026 17:42

Scientists discover 57 new marine species lurking in the depths of the
South Atlantic
FOX Weather, 4 Oct 2026 17:10

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#313704

"R Kym Horsell"  wrote in message 
news:11a9dhr$17b2$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com...

Jim Wilkins:
>>>

Even Pluto is suspected of having a buried liquid water ocean.
Charon is suspected of at least once having a subterranean ocean.
If KBO's are similar, and given the other gas giants have a dozen
moons suspected of current salty oceans, it may turn out to be
living underground is normal and Earth is the odd guy out having
lots of action on the surface.

-------------------------------------

Earth is already strange for maintaining a high concentration of a reactive 
gas, oxygen.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6014580/

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#313705

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> "R Kym Horsell"  wrote in message
> news:11a9dhr$17b2$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com...
>
> Jim Wilkins:
>>>>
>
> Even Pluto is suspected of having a buried liquid water ocean.
> Charon is suspected of at least once having a subterranean ocean.
> If KBO's are similar, and given the other gas giants have a dozen
> moons suspected of current salty oceans, it may turn out to be
> living underground is normal and Earth is the odd guy out having
> lots of action on the surface.
>
> -------------------------------------
>
> Earth is already strange for maintaining a high concentration of a
> reactive gas, oxygen.
>
> https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6014580/

It's a critical component for the cycle of life on earth.

-- 
Daniel
sysop  | air & wave bbs
finger | info@bbs.airandwave.net

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#313706

|"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
|> "R Kym Horsell"  wrote in message
|> news:11a9dhr$17b2$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com...
|> Jim Wilkins:
|> Even Pluto is suspected of having a buried liquid water ocean.
|> Charon is suspected of at least once having a subterranean ocean.
|> If KBO's are similar, and given the other gas giants have a dozen
|> moons suspected of current salty oceans, it may turn out to be
|> living underground is normal and Earth is the odd guy out having
|> lots of action on the surface.
|> -------------------------------------
|> Earth is already strange for maintaining a high concentration of a
|> reactive gas, oxygen.
|> https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6014580/
|It's a critical component for the cycle of life on earth.
|Daniel

Even more interesting, the salinity of some of the oceans on various moons
is beleived to be within striking range of Earth's oceans.

E.g. last guess I saw for Enceldus was 4-40 g/kg with Earth std around 35.
Salinity and dissolved oxygen in liquid water are inversely related no 
matter where thay are which may hint that DO in Enceledus' ocean is also 
in ballpark range of Earth, maybe even higher (if less saline than 35%%).

I'm hoping to ask someone that knows, eventually. :)

-- 
Microscopic wormholes possible in theory
UOL.DE, 24 Jun 2026
In a new study, Oldenburg physicists show that microscopic, traversable
wormholes could ...

  How Wormholes Are Secretly Shaping Our Reality - Popular Mechanics
  Popular Mechanics, 17 Nov 2025
  Scientists say microscopic wormholes could explain discrepancies in
  cosmological constants and affect our ...

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Phys.org, 12 Oct 2026 10:41

[Barney Hendrickson (Bjarni Herj?lfsson) Day!]
Vikings Reached North America 500 Years Before Columbus, Archaeology Confirms
GreekReporter.com, 13 Oct 2026 02:33

  Inuit figurine: A 700-year-old Indigenous carving of a European made
  a century before Columbus
  Live Science, 12 Oct 2026 15:01

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to dismiss
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UFO reports keep returning for reasons that are more complicated than they
first appear. A small number of cases continue to ...

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ABC News, 12 Oct 2026 at 1:00pm
Clocks occasionally go backwards for a second to keep Earth time in
sync with the stars. But the powers that govern time measurement
are about to vote to end the practice.

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ABC News, 12 Oct 2026 at 1:43pm
Questions arise after US police were kept in the dark about a false
murder tip-off by AI model Claude.

[Never Forget!]
Quantum 'birthmarks' hold lasting traces of a system's past
Phys.org, 11 Oct 2026 21:22

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Earth.com, 30 Sep 2026

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New York Post, 11 Oct 2026 12:19
US intelligence officials who witnessed a bizarre parade of orange orbs --
including smaller objects that allegedly emerged ...

Trump suggests `Ocean of Americas' as new name for Atlantic or Pacific
The Washington Post, 11 Oct 2026 11:30

[The GFC but with oil!]
Supreme Court climate case could bankrupt oil companies, send gas prices
soaring, experts warn
Fox News on MSN.com, 11 Oct 2026 07:15
Energy experts warn the Supreme Court's Suncor v. Boulder case could trigger
thousands of climate liability lawsuits that ...

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Nikon disqualifies the winner of its prestigious science
competition for using AI after microscopy experts questioned the
accuracy of the clip on social media.

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Big Think, 6 Oct 2026 12:41
[Everything will be fine until it starts jumping up on the benches and
pooping and pissing everywhere].

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Ars Technica, 10 Oct 2026 06:29

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  It's Now Throwing Its Entire Access to Space Into Question
  Futurism, 2 Oct 2026 12:42

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as Member of a New Species
AOL.com, 10 Oct 2026 00:36

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Phys.org, 9 Oct 2026

Discovery marks the first detection of variable water clouds outside of the
solar system
Phys.org, 9 Oct 2026 22:35
[7.5 LY].

[Illegal Gathering!]
Florida Climate Week brings focus to environmental challenges and ocean research
WPBF Channel 25, 10 Oct 2026 08:53
Florida Climate Week unites scientists, environmentalists, and local groups
to address climate issues and educate the public ...

Man fined $10k for illegal dump that left $3m clean-up bill
ABC News, Sat 10 Oct 2026 at 7:58am
The illegal dump in Melbourne's outer north prompted a significant
clean-up effort, leading to criticism that environmental laws are
failing to deter illegal dumping.
[The local govt charges property owners $1000 pa to keep nearby
streets cleared of piles of tires, old coolers, baby beds, exercise
machines and stolen shopping trolleys].

Big dogs die younger, and scientists now know why
The Telegraph, 8 Oct 2026 19:01

A 73% average decline in wildlife populations: an overview of the 2026
Living Planet Index report
Our World in Data, 8 Oct 2026 02:58
[But bluefin has made a comeback so everything is fine!]

[The Pipes Canna Take The Heat Captain!]
New Mexico pipeline incidents on the rise as EPA plans regulatory rollbacks
for oil and gas
Yahoo, 9 Oct 2026 14:35
Two natural gas pipelines ruptured in opposite corners of New Mexico on
Tuesday, the latest in a growing number of such ...

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#313708

"R Kym Horsell"  wrote in message 
news:11ak8ld$gvb$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com...


Even more interesting, the salinity of some of the oceans on various moons
is beleived to be within striking range of Earth's oceans.

E.g. last guess I saw for Enceldus was 4-40 g/kg with Earth std around 35.
Salinity and dissolved oxygen in liquid water are inversely related no
matter where thay are which may hint that DO in Enceledus' ocean is also
in ballpark range of Earth, maybe even higher (if less saline than 35%%).

---------------------------------------

This shows the varying solubility of oxygen in fresh and sea water with 
pressure and temperature.
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/oxygen-solubility-water-d_841.html#gsc.tab=0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemocyanin
"It has been noted that species using hemocyanin for oxygen transportation 
include crustaceans living in cold environments with low oxygen pressure. 
Under these circumstances hemoglobin oxygen transportation is less efficient 
than hemocyanin oxygen transportation."

Mr. Spock's blood had a scientific basis.
"Nevertheless, there are also terrestrial arthropods using hemocyanin, 
notably spiders and scorpions, that live in warm climates. The molecule is 
conformationally stable and fully functioning at temperatures up to 90 
degrees C."

I met Leonard Nimoy after a performance of his play about Vincent van Gogh 
and managed to ask only van Gogh questions, as I had read the book he based 
it on.
https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/198511.Dear_Theo

I stayed silent on Star Trek and handed him an unrelated book he wrote to 
autograph.
https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/549836-we-are-all-children-searching-for-love-a-collection-of-poems-and-photog
I can and regret not giving the \\// salute on leaving.

Given the chance I quiz TV writers who create content instead of the actors 
who repeat it.

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#313709

R Kym Horsell <kym@sdf.org> writes:

> |"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
> |> "R Kym Horsell"  wrote in message
> |> news:11a9dhr$17b2$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com...
> |> Jim Wilkins:
> |> Even Pluto is suspected of having a buried liquid water ocean.
> |> Charon is suspected of at least once having a subterranean ocean.
> |> If KBO's are similar, and given the other gas giants have a dozen
> |> moons suspected of current salty oceans, it may turn out to be
> |> living underground is normal and Earth is the odd guy out having
> |> lots of action on the surface.
> |> -------------------------------------
> |> Earth is already strange for maintaining a high concentration of a
> |> reactive gas, oxygen.
> |> https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6014580/
> |It's a critical component for the cycle of life on earth.
> |Daniel
>
> Even more interesting, the salinity of some of the oceans on various moons
> is beleived to be within striking range of Earth's oceans.
>
> E.g. last guess I saw for Enceldus was 4-40 g/kg with Earth std around 35.
> Salinity and dissolved oxygen in liquid water are inversely related no 
> matter where thay are which may hint that DO in Enceledus' ocean is also 
> in ballpark range of Earth, maybe even higher (if less saline than 35%%).
>
> I'm hoping to ask someone that knows, eventually. :)

Our moon having subsurface water would be a shocker to me. Though if it
did, it would have come from earth, so earth-like salination ratios
wouldn't be surprising.

The other moons, not so much. I mean, everything formed out of the same nebula
after all. So if a subsurface water ocean were seriously present on
Enceladus would it surprise you that it, too, is salinated?

Isn't this all conjecture though? Many things scientists have
predicted about our solar system turned out differently. I've adopted a
'wait-and-see' attitude and lean on no assumptions or hypothesis.

Speaking on salination, I wasn't expecting Mars soil to be as hostile to
organic life as it is.  Watching the character grow potatoes with
martian soil in "The Martian" had me laughing out loud in the
theater. My wife glared at me.

-- 
Daniel
sysop  | air & wave bbs
finger | info@bbs.airandwave.net

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#313710

"Daniel"  wrote in message news:87pkxd7d3v.fsf@fuhgitabutit.com...

Speaking on salination, I wasn't expecting Mars soil to be as hostile to
organic life as it is.  Watching the character grow potatoes with
martian soil in "The Martian" had me laughing out loud in the
theater. My wife glared at me.

-- 
Daniel

-----------------------------------------
Sodium chlorate used to be sold as a weed killer. Most chlorates and 
perchlorates are quite soluble. A distillation apparatus that passes the 
condensate through the soil and back into the boiler can use solar heat and 
a small amount of scarce water to efficiently transfer the salts from the 
soil into the boiler. When dried they are a convenient and storable source 
of oxygen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_oxygen_generator

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Solid_Rocket_Booster
"The primary propellants were ammonium perchlorate as the oxidizer along 
with aluminum powder and PBAN as fuel."

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#313711

Le 2026-10-13 à 12:57, Daniel a écrit :
> R Kym Horsell <kym@sdf.org> writes:
> 
>> |"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
>> |> "R Kym Horsell"  wrote in message
>> |> news:11a9dhr$17b2$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com...
>> |> Jim Wilkins:
>> |> Even Pluto is suspected of having a buried liquid water ocean.
>> |> Charon is suspected of at least once having a subterranean ocean.
>> |> If KBO's are similar, and given the other gas giants have a dozen
>> |> moons suspected of current salty oceans, it may turn out to be
>> |> living underground is normal and Earth is the odd guy out having
>> |> lots of action on the surface.
>> |> -------------------------------------
>> |> Earth is already strange for maintaining a high concentration of a
>> |> reactive gas, oxygen.
>> |> https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6014580/
>> |It's a critical component for the cycle of life on earth.
>> |Daniel
>>
>> Even more interesting, the salinity of some of the oceans on various moons
>> is beleived to be within striking range of Earth's oceans.
>>
>> E.g. last guess I saw for Enceldus was 4-40 g/kg with Earth std around 35.
>> Salinity and dissolved oxygen in liquid water are inversely related no
>> matter where thay are which may hint that DO in Enceledus' ocean is also
>> in ballpark range of Earth, maybe even higher (if less saline than 35%%).
>>
>> I'm hoping to ask someone that knows, eventually. :)
> 
> Our moon having subsurface water would be a shocker to me. Though if it
> did, it would have come from earth, so earth-like salination ratios
> wouldn't be surprising.

When the Moon was formed, Earth didn't have oceans yet. Then, initially, 
the salinity was pretty low.
So, we should NOT expect the salinity of eventual Lunar water to be 
similar to that of the modern Earth.

> 
> The other moons, not so much. I mean, everything formed out of the same nebula
> after all. So if a subsurface water ocean were seriously present on
> Enceladus would it surprise you that it, too, is salinated?

Here again, the subsurface water of Mars and the moons of the Solar 
system is NOT expected to be similar to what we found here on Earth. 
After all, they where formed in vastly different regions of the 
protoplanetary disk, regions with vastly different chemical composition. 
Different salinity, from different salts. Also, different isotopic ratio.

> 
> Isn't this all conjecture though? Many things scientists have
> predicted about our solar system turned out differently. I've adopted a
> 'wait-and-see' attitude and lean on no assumptions or hypothesis.
> 
> Speaking on salination, I wasn't expecting Mars soil to be as hostile to
> organic life as it is.  Watching the character grow potatoes with
> martian soil in "The Martian" had me laughing out loud in the
> theater. My wife glared at me.
> 

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#313712

Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca>:
|Here again, the subsurface water of Mars and the moons of the Solar 
|system is NOT expected to be similar to what we found here on Earth. 
|After all, they where formed in vastly different regions of the 
|protoplanetary disk, regions with vastly different chemical composition. 
|Different salinity, from different salts. Also, different isotopic ratio.

Sure. But then the Earth's oceans are not "just one thing".

A 2025 est of Ganymedes salinity at ~50%% doesnt rule out regions
of salinity similar to E esp given its suspected "club sandwich" structure.

For the Earth (an old WOD9) we see the following interesting regions:

depth    lat     ratio min(sal)/avg(sal)
(100m)   (10d and not grouping N&S together)
|   11 |    4 |    0.62330384182344 |
|   20 |    4 |   0.620882163742088 |
|    9 |    4 |   0.619603300378824 |
|    8 |    4 |   0.616046281499838 |
|   14 |    4 |    0.61599515818166 |
|   16 |    4 |   0.612630353056356 |
|   12 |    4 |   0.608055231163081 |
|   10 |    4 |   0.605150447041379 |
|    6 |    4 |   0.603832548098389 |
|    7 |    4 |   0.498507270146948 |
|    5 |    4 |   0.494197540122744 |
|    4 |    4 |   0.492992333939598 |
|    3 |    4 |   0.480627217032949 |
|    2 |    4 |   0.462208082695531 |
|    1 |    4 |   0.440590693031169 |	ice meltwater
|    4 |    5 |   0.257681779546106 |	"
|    3 |    5 |   0.255749050925219 |	"
|    2 |    5 |   0.189146741117398 |	"
|    2 |    6 |   0.158388333679298 |	"
|    1 |    6 |   0.101053140729499 |	"

With an avg ~35%% we see large regions (temp ignoring the presence of 
meltwater) where salinity can be e.g. 18%% if not lower.

It's not very obvious what influence the subterranean aspect,
the sandwitching, and 10x depth scale in the case of G might
have on the range of salinity but it might be even more varied than above.

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#313713

Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> writes:

> Le 2026-10-13 à 12:57, Daniel a écrit :
>> R Kym Horsell <kym@sdf.org> writes:
>> 
>>> |"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
>>> |> "R Kym Horsell"  wrote in message
>>> |> news:11a9dhr$17b2$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com...
>>> |> Jim Wilkins:
>>> |> Even Pluto is suspected of having a buried liquid water ocean.
>>> |> Charon is suspected of at least once having a subterranean ocean.
>>> |> If KBO's are similar, and given the other gas giants have a dozen
>>> |> moons suspected of current salty oceans, it may turn out to be
>>> |> living underground is normal and Earth is the odd guy out having
>>> |> lots of action on the surface.
>>> |> -------------------------------------
>>> |> Earth is already strange for maintaining a high concentration of a
>>> |> reactive gas, oxygen.
>>> |> https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6014580/
>>> |It's a critical component for the cycle of life on earth.
>>> |Daniel
>>>
>>> Even more interesting, the salinity of some of the oceans on various moons
>>> is beleived to be within striking range of Earth's oceans.
>>>
>>> E.g. last guess I saw for Enceldus was 4-40 g/kg with Earth std around 35.
>>> Salinity and dissolved oxygen in liquid water are inversely related no
>>> matter where thay are which may hint that DO in Enceledus' ocean is also
>>> in ballpark range of Earth, maybe even higher (if less saline than 35%%).
>>>
>>> I'm hoping to ask someone that knows, eventually. :)
>> Our moon having subsurface water would be a shocker to me. Though if
>> it
>> did, it would have come from earth, so earth-like salination ratios
>> wouldn't be surprising.
>
> When the Moon was formed, Earth didn't have oceans yet. Then,
> initially, the salinity was pretty low.
> So, we should NOT expect the salinity of eventual Lunar water to be
> similar to that of the modern Earth.
>
>> The other moons, not so much. I mean, everything formed out of the
>> same nebula
>> after all. So if a subsurface water ocean were seriously present on
>> Enceladus would it surprise you that it, too, is salinated?
>
> Here again, the subsurface water of Mars and the moons of the Solar
> system is NOT expected to be similar to what we found here on
> Earth. After all, they where formed in vastly different regions of the
> protoplanetary disk, regions with vastly different chemical
> composition. Different salinity, from different salts. Also, different
> isotopic ratio.
>
>> Isn't this all conjecture though? Many things scientists have
>> predicted about our solar system turned out differently. I've adopted a
>> 'wait-and-see' attitude and lean on no assumptions or hypothesis.
>> Speaking on salination, I wasn't expecting Mars soil to be as
>> hostile to
>> organic life as it is.  Watching the character grow potatoes with
>> martian soil in "The Martian" had me laughing out loud in the
>> theater. My wife glared at me.

Does it matter if the oceans were on the surface? It came from
underground anyway - as do the minerals.

-- 
Daniel
sysop  | air & wave bbs
finger | info@bbs.airandwave.net

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#313718

Daniel <me@fuhgitabutit.com>:
|Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> writes:
|> Le 2026-10-13 ?? 12:57, Daniel a ??crit??:
|>> R Kym Horsell <kym@sdf.org> writes:
|>>> |"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
|>>> |> "R Kym Horsell"  wrote in message
|>>> |> news:11a9dhr$17b2$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com...
|>>> |> Jim Wilkins:
|>>> |> Even Pluto is suspected of having a buried liquid water ocean.
|>>> |> Charon is suspected of at least once having a subterranean ocean.
|>>> |> If KBO's are similar, and given the other gas giants have a dozen
|>>> |> moons suspected of current salty oceans, it may turn out to be
|>>> |> living underground is normal and Earth is the odd guy out having
|>>> |> lots of action on the surface.
|>>> |> -------------------------------------
|>>> |> Earth is already strange for maintaining a high concentration of a
|>>> |> reactive gas, oxygen.
|>>> |> https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6014580/
|>>> |It's a critical component for the cycle of life on earth.
|>>> |Daniel
|>>> Even more interesting, the salinity of some of the oceans on various moons
|>>> is beleived to be within striking range of Earth's oceans.
...
|Does it matter if the oceans were on the surface? It came from
|underground anyway - as do the minerals.

Ah, well. This is just one of the many big flies in this ointment.:)

The AI's I'm using here have been spinning tires trying to
figure out what a model of e.g. Ganymede salinity might looks like
by analogy to what they can figure out from the approx 40,000 databases
they have access to.

Their best guess today (possibly overtuned in the next 10 seconds if 
they find something new out) is a subterranean ocean of any great depth 
might have fresher water in the mid depths even with a rocky roof and 
a rocky bottom.

It's suspected G has several layers of rock/water and who knows if
any of these might be connected to allow complex mixing. Another big fly.

On earth it's not so much a matter that ocean salinity maxes out "at the 
rock" but the variation in salinity decreases with depth, at least on 
the ocean. If you look at the table of salinity by depth for Earth
you see pretty much the average from 0 to 5km down is 34-35%% but
the stddev at each depth changes sometimes radically. The polar seas
and the surface in general has the greatest variation, but there are some
bands at depth where variation is large as well.

The programs have pointed out the situation seems to be the opposite in 
lakes and caves -- presumably a starter mental model for a subterranean sea.
From the 1000s of datapoints they gathered (data going down to 4 km -- 
way more than the deep parts of L Baikal) from what they "deduce" must 
be lakes and caves (the database doesnt say exactly what the sample is 
a sample of -- you have to go by location and some guesswork) the avg 
salinity as well as the salinity variation changes with depth but seems 
to follow the opposite pattern to the ocean.


"LAKE/CAVEWATER by depth":

[random 25% sample of table:]
Depth	Av salinity	Model estimated
(100m)	(%%)		av salinity
0.1	0.135872	0.146777
0.85	0.150476	0.144902
0.95	0.22		0.144654**(model much too low)
1.01	0.226667	0.144505**(model much too low)
1.1	0.121959	0.144282
1.3	0.1275		0.143789
1.5	0.12		0.143296
2.25	0.156897	0.141466
2.7	0.15		0.140378
2.9	0.13125		0.139898
5.1	0.122447	0.13472
15.1	0.1		0.113494
25.1	0.1		0.0956131
38.1	0.1		0.076511*(model a little too low)

MODEL:
y = 1.47029183e-01*exp(-1.71442651e-02*x)
T-test: P(beta<0.000000) = 0.999748
Rank test: calculated Spearman corr = -0.670169
|r| > rc (0.432000 2-sided) at 1%; reject H0 (independence)
r2 = 0.27571185

I.e. the best model they can justify (the 2 stat tests say the model
found is statistically significant) for salinity of cave and lake water
salinity is an exponential that decreases with depth.
The model predicts salinity tends to 1/2 every 4km down outside the oceans.

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#313720

"R Kym Horsell"  wrote in message 
news:11b1l97$1qm4$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com...


Ah, well. This is just one of the many big flies in this ointment.:)

The AI's I'm using here have been spinning tires trying to
figure out what a model of e.g. Ganymede salinity might looks like
by analogy to what they can figure out from the approx 40,000 databases
they have access to.
-----------------------------------

NaCl is unusual in that temperature has almost no effect on its solubility 
in water. The presence of ammonia complicates it, by reducing the solubility 
of ionic salts except for metal ions that form a soluble complex with 
ammonia.

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#313722

Jim Wilkins:
||Ah, well. This is just one of the many big flies in this ointment.:)
||
||The AI's I'm using here have been spinning tires trying to
||figure out what a model of e.g. Ganymede salinity might looks like
||by analogy to what they can figure out from the approx 40,000 databases
||they have access to.
||-----------------------------------
|
|NaCl is unusual in that temperature has almost no effect on its solubility 
|in water. The presence of ammonia complicates it, by reducing the solubility 
|of ionic salts except for metal ions that form a soluble complex with 
|ammonia.

There will be many surprises.

While the simple model posted predicts low salinity for e.g. 
Lake Vostok it gives no hints about the methane deficit 
(i.e. despite calthrates in the cap) or the super saturation 
of oxygen (50x) even looking at ocean data from regions around 5kpsi.

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#313723

"R Kym Horsell"  wrote in message 
news:11b384e$2f7d$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com...

Jim Wilkins:
|The presence of ammonia complicates it, by reducing the solubility
|of ionic salts except for metal ions that form a soluble complex with
|ammonia.

There will be many surprises.

-------------------------------------------

Explorers might be surprised and delighted  to discover an ammonia water 
ocean rich in dissolved silver salts, which unexpectedly explode when 
extracted and dried.

https://www.medicalalgorithms.com/handling-of-ammoniacal-silver-stain-in-the-histology-laboratory

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#313724

Jim Wilkins:
|||The presence of ammonia complicates it, by reducing the solubility
|||of ionic salts except for metal ions that form a soluble complex with
|||ammonia.
||
||There will be many surprises.
|Explorers might be surprised and delighted  to discover an ammonia water 
|ocean rich in dissolved silver salts, which unexpectedly explode when 
|extracted and dried.
|https://www.medicalalgorithms.com/handling-of-ammoniacal-silver-stain-in-the-histology-laboratory

You can validate any lab procedures here:

Scientists Collected Deep-Sea Rocks. They Spontaneously Combust
ScienceAlert, 11 Oct 2026
Scientists investigating the possibility of a 'gold rush' on the bottom of 
the ocean have hit upon an unforeseen #
 

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#313725

"R Kym Horsell"  wrote in message 
news:11b3ntq$2reu$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com...

Jim Wilkins:
|||The presence of ammonia complicates it, by reducing the solubility
|||of ionic salts except for metal ions that form a soluble complex with
|||ammonia.
||
||There will be many surprises.
|Explorers might be surprised and delighted  to discover an ammonia water
|ocean rich in dissolved silver salts, which unexpectedly explode when
|extracted and dried.
|https://www.medicalalgorithms.com/handling-of-ammoniacal-silver-stain-in-the-histology-laboratory

You can validate any lab procedures here:

Scientists Collected Deep-Sea Rocks. They Spontaneously Combust
ScienceAlert, 11 Oct 2026
Scientists investigating the possibility of a 'gold rush' on the bottom of
the ocean have hit upon an unforeseen #

--------------------------------
Freshly mined coal can also oxidize enough to spontaneously combust. Due to 
a miners' strike RMS Titanic had to take whatever was available.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/coal-fire-may-have-helped-sink-titanic-180961699/

The Smithsonian isn't immune to sensationalism. Survivor Frederick Barrett 
reported that leakage into that by-then-emptied bunker was much less than in 
the space ahead between coal bunkers where he had been standing when the 
seawater surged in through an opened hull plating rivet seam. He called the 
leak into bunker 6 "like an ordinary fire hose." The observed aft end of the 
gash and extent of flooding was half way between the first and second 
funnels.

I have only the broad overview of chemistry (and physics) from a BS degree. 
After graduation the Vietnam draft forced me into military and aerospace 
electronics, which I liked and stayed in for my career.

I hope the misconceptions of chemistry common in news articles reflects the 
general low technical educational level of the media and not that of the 
practicing astronomers, scientists and engineers who made and reported the 
discoveries. In electronics at least expertise tended to be very deep but 
narrow. I really shouldn't be the one who notices and calls attention to 
these "unforeseen" things, like naturally occurring dimethyl sulfide, or the 
experimental error behind Rossi's E-Cat.

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#313726

"Jim Wilkins"  wrote in message news:11b50uq$21i0u$1@dont-email.me...

> Survivor Frederick Barrett
reported that leakage into that by-then-emptied bunker was much less than in
the space ahead between coal bunkers where he had been standing when the
seawater surged in through an opened hull plating rivet seam. He called the
leak into bunker 6 "like an ordinary fire hose." The observed aft end of the
gash and extent of flooding was half way between the first and second
funnels.

---------------------------------

The Titanic is notable for the extreme level of detail available on line as 
well as the confusion of the inquests which unlike crimes received unbiased 
eyewitness testimony. The Senators conducting the US inquiry didn't 
understand marine terminology or practice or ask the right questions, the 
British inquiry whitewashed the inadequacy of lifeboat requirements. The US 
one resembled the Challenger inquiry where only Feynman recognized and 
demonstrated the problem, with an O ring in his glass of ice water.

The ship had been designed to carry 64 instead of 16 boats but doing so 
would raise the embarrassing question of why other large liners needed so 
few. The original designer retired when his number was reduced. The new 
Welin davits of greater capacity and complexity apparently caused confusion 
and delay to the deck hands, the ship went under before the last two spare 
lifeboats could be launched.

The coal bunkers were on the forward and aft sides of the crosswise 
watertight bulkheads and extended to the insides of the hull. Bunker 6 had 
been emptied the previous night to use up the smoldering coal and thus the 
inside and leak were visible.

Since his duty station had flooded Barrett was sent up to help launch and 
crew the lifeboats, which he did until the cold disabled him.

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#313714

"Kualinar"  wrote in message news:11ao2iu$1ht2r$1@dont-email.me...

Here again, the subsurface water of Mars and the moons of the Solar
system is NOT expected to be similar to what we found here on Earth.
After all, they where formed in vastly different regions of the
protoplanetary disk, regions with vastly different chemical composition.
Different salinity, from different salts. Also, different isotopic ratio.

---------------------------
https://spaceplace.nasa.gov/all-about-uranus/en/
"Uranus is made of water, methane, and ammonia fluids above a small rocky 
center."

Ammonia and methane levels can be high in the absence of gaseous oxygen, and 
both dissolve in water, significantly changing its properties.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane_clathrate

Ammonia greatly reduces the freezing point of its solutions with water.
https://www.tannerind.com/PDF/green-aqua-amm.pdf

Life might exist in water containing them, for instance hydrogen sulfide is 
as poisonous to us as cyanide yet some Earth bacteria produce it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_sulfide

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