Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ?

From	rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Newsgroups	comp.os.linux.misc
Subject	Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ?
Date	2026-03-08 21:44 +0000
Message-ID	<n168u7FoahkU4@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	<V8ycnZvJx85o3DD0nZ2dnZfqn_qdnZ2d@giganews.com> <n15v43Fnb2vU1@mid.individual.net> <wwvh5qqf65y.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>

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On Sun, 08 Mar 2026 19:54:49 +0000, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
>> On Sun, 8 Mar 2026 05:31:16 -0400, c186282 wrote:
>>> Alas Python is no longer "real" ... lives in a horrible "virtual
>>> environment" that seems to lock out a lot of useful stuff "for your
>>> safety".
>>
>> I started using venvs long ago but it is getting more painful. One
>> thing I've started doing is
> 
> If c186282 actually means venvs, and doesn’t want to be in one, then
> ‘deactivate’ is all they need.
> 
> However, the idea that Fedora 43 pushes Python into a venv by default
> does not pass the sniff test (and doesn’t seem to be true in the
> container image, which has what looks like a perfectly normal Python
> 3.14).
> 
> Perhaps they have confused it with something else.

'pip3 install ruff' on Fedora gets 'defaulting to user installation 
because normal site-packages is not writable'. 

Ubuntu is more verbose.

$pip3 install ruff
error: externally-managed-environment

× This environment is externally managed
╰─> To install Python packages system-wide, try apt install
    python3-xyz, where xyz is the package you are trying to
    install.
    
    If you wish to install a non-Debian-packaged Python package,
    create a virtual environment using python3 -m venv path/to/venv.
    Then use path/to/venv/bin/python and path/to/venv/bin/pip. Make
    sure you have python3-full installed.
    
    If you wish to install a non-Debian packaged Python application,
    it may be easiest to use pipx install xyz, which will manage a
    virtual environment for you. Make sure you have pipx installed.
    
    See /usr/share/doc/python3.13/README.venv for more information.

note: If you believe this is a mistake, please contact your Python 
installation or OS distribution provider. You can override this, at the 
risk of breaking your Python installation or OS, by passing --break-
system-packages.


$ sudo apt install python3-ruff
[sudo: authenticate] Password: 
Package python3-ruff is not available, but is referred to by another 
package.
This may mean that the package is missing, has been obsoleted, or
is only available from another source

Error: Package 'python3-ruff' has no installation candidate


https://peps.python.org/pep-0668/

https://packaging.python.org/en/latest/specifications/externally-managed-
environments/#externally-managed-environments

says it clearer:

"This specification defines an EXTERNALLY-MANAGED marker file that allows 
a Python installation to indicate to Python-specific tools such as pip 
that they neither install nor remove packages into the interpreter’s 
default installation environment, and should instead guide the end user 
towards using Python Virtual Environments."


You don't necessarily have to use a venv if what you're doing is covered 
by the standard Python packages but there is a strong attempt to herd you 
into a venv.

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Thread

Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-03-08 05:31 -0400
  Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-08 18:57 +0000
    Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-08 19:54 +0000
      Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-08 21:44 +0000
        Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-08 22:05 +0000
          Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-09 00:27 +0000
            Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-03-08 21:14 -0400
              Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-09 02:47 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-03-09 02:59 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-03-09 00:23 -0400
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-09 03:55 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-03-09 00:28 -0400
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-03-09 08:16 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-09 13:59 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-03-10 02:49 -0400
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-10 08:47 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-03-10 06:14 -0400
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-03-10 14:55 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-03-10 13:03 -0400
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-03-10 17:09 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-03-11 02:48 -0400
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-11 07:32 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-11 08:40 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Gilmeh Serda <gilmeh.serda@nothing.here.invalid> - 2026-03-13 06:07 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-03-13 02:48 -0400
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-03-11 11:58 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-10 17:56 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-03-10 18:13 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-10 23:51 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Piergiorgio Sartor <piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used@nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de> - 2026-03-10 19:14 +0100
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2026-03-11 17:14 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-03-11 20:19 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Piergiorgio Sartor <piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used@nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de> - 2026-03-11 21:51 +0100
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-11 21:35 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-12 02:14 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-12 02:11 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-12 10:39 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-12 20:51 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-03-13 09:34 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-13 21:49 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-03-13 23:28 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-14 01:17 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-03-14 03:21 -0400
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-14 12:23 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-14 19:18 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-10 19:36 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-10 18:26 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-03-09 00:03 -0400
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-09 08:59 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-09 08:52 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-09 16:34 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-09 22:17 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-03-10 02:38 -0400
              Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-09 08:41 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-09 09:45 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-03-10 06:21 -0400
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-10 18:24 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-03-11 04:20 -0400
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-03-11 18:52 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-11 19:39 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-03-11 20:14 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-11 23:00 +0000
                Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-03-10 15:02 +0000
            Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-09 01:36 +0000
            Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-09 08:36 +0000
          Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-09 01:34 +0000
            Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-03-08 22:11 -0400
              Re: Defeat Python "Virtual Environment" in Fedora ? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-09 08:26 +0000

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