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Groups > comp.lang.python > #67688
| References | (3 earlier) <lf2sjk$7d4$1@ger.gmane.org> <20140303155112.46e34ff8@bigbox.christie.dr> <mailman.7666.1393884138.18130.python-list@python.org> <87siqy7whs.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <53155c15$0$2923$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-03-04 10:19 -0500 |
| Subject | Re: Reference |
| From | Jerry Hill <malaclypse2@gmail.com> |
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.python |
| Message-ID | <mailman.7720.1393946366.18130.python-list@python.org> (permalink) |
On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 11:52 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote: > If your intention is to treat None as a singleton sentinel, not as a > value, then you ought to use "is" to signal that intention, rather than > using == even if you know that there won't be any false positives. In all of the years I've been on this list, I don't think I've seen more than one or two cases of someone deliberately treating None as a singleton sentinel. In most cases, they're either checking the return value from a function or using it as a default argument to a function to force some default behavior when no parameter is passed. I'm pretty sure you're going to say that the latter use is exactly where you should us 'is' instead of '=='. Respectfully, I disagree. For a beginning python user, identity checking is an attractive nuisance. The only time most beginners should use it is when comparing to None. But, as soon as they are taught that there are two comparison operators, I start to see 'is' cropping up in more and more places where they ought to use '=='. And the problem is that sometimes it works for them, and sometimes it doesn't. Sure, students eventually need to understand the difference between identity and equality. My problem is that by enshrining in python custom that the only correct way to compare to None is with 'is', we have to explain that concept way early in the teaching process. I can't count the number of times that a thread has completely derailed into identity vs equality, then into interning of strings and small integers, and suddenly the thread is 40 messages long, and no one has actually talked about the code that was originally posted beyond that issue. In approximately zero cases, have I seen code where 'is' versus '==' actually made any difference, except where the 'is' is wrong. I've also never seen the supposedly ever-present boogie man of an object that mistakenly compares equal to None, much less seen that object passed to functions with None-based sentinels. I feel like 'is' is an operator that ought to be saved for an advanced course. Out of curiosity, do you think we should be doing truth checking with 'is'? True and False are singletons, and it seems to me that the justification for idenity versus equality should be just as strong there, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone even suggest that. -- Jerry
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Reference "ast" <nomail@invalid.com> - 2014-03-03 10:42 +0100
Object identity (was: Reference) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-03 21:00 +1100
Re: Object identity (was: Reference) "ast" <nomail@invalid.com> - 2014-03-03 11:21 +0100
Re: Reference "Mark H. Harris" <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-03-03 05:09 -0800
Re: Reference Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-03-03 14:29 +0000
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-03 07:52 -0800
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 08:10 +1100
Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-03 15:24 -0600
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 08:31 +1100
Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-03 21:35 +0000
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-04 00:07 +0200
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 09:18 +1100
Re: Reference Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-03-04 11:10 +0000
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 11:48 +0000
Re: Reference "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2014-03-05 00:25 +0000
Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-03 15:51 -0600
Re: Reference Jerry Hill <malaclypse2@gmail.com> - 2014-03-03 17:02 -0500
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-04 00:22 +0200
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 09:27 +1100
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 09:33 +1100
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 04:52 +0000
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 16:24 +1100
Re: Reference "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2014-03-05 01:08 +0000
Re: Reference Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-03-04 21:09 -0500
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 19:36 -0800
Re: Reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 21:08 -0700
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 20:31 -0800
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 15:32 +1100
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 20:47 -0800
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-05 05:06 +0000
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 21:47 -0800
Re: Reference alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 16:01 +1000
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 22:10 -0800
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 17:22 +1100
Re: Reference alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 16:28 +1000
Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 12:24 +0000
Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 12:21 +0000
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 17:20 +1100
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 09:40 -0800
Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-05 12:12 -0600
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 05:33 +1100
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-05 18:19 +0000
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 22:23 +0200
Re: Reference Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-03-05 20:31 +0000
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 22:46 +0200
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 08:07 +1100
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 08:10 +1100
Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 21:34 +0000
Re: Reference Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-03-05 18:00 -0500
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-06 03:01 +0000
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 22:03 -0800
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 17:26 +1100
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 17:32 +1100
Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-05 08:24 -0600
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-05 18:29 +0000
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 22:34 +0200
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 08:01 +1100
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 23:14 +0200
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-06 08:26 +1100
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 23:50 +0200
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-06 00:35 +0000
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-06 11:50 +1100
Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-06 17:46 +0000
Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-05 15:33 -0600
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 08:37 +1100
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-06 02:52 +0200
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 12:05 +1100
Re: Reference alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-03-06 12:12 +1000
Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 21:46 +0000
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 08:23 +0200
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 22:33 -0800
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 17:40 +1100
Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 12:35 +0000
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 23:45 +1100
Re: Reference Jerry Hill <malaclypse2@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 10:19 -0500
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 15:42 +0000
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 03:02 +1100
Re: Reference Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-03-04 11:14 -0500
Re: Reference MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-03-04 17:12 +0000
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 08:24 -0800
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 02:25 +1100
Re: Reference Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2014-03-05 14:37 +0100
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 03:59 +0000
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 09:17 +1100
Re: Reference Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-03-03 18:02 -0500
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 10:09 +1100
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 04:38 +0000
Re: Reference Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-03-03 13:48 -0500
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 03:45 +0000
Re: Reference Alexander Blinne <news@blinne.net> - 2014-03-04 13:55 +0100
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 01:06 +1100
Re: Reference Alexander Blinne <news@blinne.net> - 2014-03-04 22:53 +0100
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 09:01 +1100
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