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Groups > comp.lang.python > #67894
| From | Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> |
|---|---|
| Subject | Re: Reference |
| Date | 2014-03-05 18:00 -0500 |
| References | (13 earlier) <55d6a455-1856-4fd6-ac4b-c277ff7e2bd1@googlegroups.com> <53176aac$0$29985$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <87r46g75t9.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <lf81iu$rti$1@reader1.panix.com> <87iors74re.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> |
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.python |
| Message-ID | <mailman.7848.1394060483.18130.python-list@python.org> (permalink) |
On 3/5/2014 3:46 PM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>:
>
>> Wrong. If the two objects are not the same, then they will have
>> different ID values. If the ID values are the same, then you've only
>> got one object.
>
> Ok, that circularity again.
Every deductive system starts with some undefined terms. These, along
with axioms or postulates, are how circularity is avoided. There
typically is a choice as to which concepts are taken as primitive and
which are defined in terms of them. In Python, one could take 'object'
and the notions of same versus different object as primitive.
> Say I implement Python. Say I returned a random number for id(),
In CPython, the int id of an object is arbitrary, somewhat haphazard,
and effectively random in the colloquial sense of the term.
> how would that violate the language spec?
It obviously does not as long as the 'random' id obeys the id axioms of
persistence and uniqueness.
> I think the discussion spawned from the problem of teaching programming
> students the right idea of values and objects. A teacher would like to
> bring in advanced concepts last, but Python seems to force you to get
> them at the very beginning.
Kids learn the notion of object persistence quite early (first year, I
think). Kids also learn that there are multiple ways of referring to one
and the same person or object, and that some references ('teacher') can
be rebound to a different person or object.
--
Terry Jan Reedy
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Reference "ast" <nomail@invalid.com> - 2014-03-03 10:42 +0100
Object identity (was: Reference) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-03 21:00 +1100
Re: Object identity (was: Reference) "ast" <nomail@invalid.com> - 2014-03-03 11:21 +0100
Re: Reference "Mark H. Harris" <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-03-03 05:09 -0800
Re: Reference Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-03-03 14:29 +0000
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-03 07:52 -0800
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 08:10 +1100
Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-03 15:24 -0600
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 08:31 +1100
Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-03 21:35 +0000
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-04 00:07 +0200
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 09:18 +1100
Re: Reference Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-03-04 11:10 +0000
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 11:48 +0000
Re: Reference "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2014-03-05 00:25 +0000
Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-03 15:51 -0600
Re: Reference Jerry Hill <malaclypse2@gmail.com> - 2014-03-03 17:02 -0500
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-04 00:22 +0200
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 09:27 +1100
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 09:33 +1100
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 04:52 +0000
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 16:24 +1100
Re: Reference "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2014-03-05 01:08 +0000
Re: Reference Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-03-04 21:09 -0500
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 19:36 -0800
Re: Reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 21:08 -0700
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 20:31 -0800
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 15:32 +1100
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 20:47 -0800
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-05 05:06 +0000
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 21:47 -0800
Re: Reference alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 16:01 +1000
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 22:10 -0800
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 17:22 +1100
Re: Reference alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 16:28 +1000
Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 12:24 +0000
Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 12:21 +0000
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 17:20 +1100
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 09:40 -0800
Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-05 12:12 -0600
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 05:33 +1100
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-05 18:19 +0000
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 22:23 +0200
Re: Reference Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-03-05 20:31 +0000
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 22:46 +0200
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 08:07 +1100
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 08:10 +1100
Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 21:34 +0000
Re: Reference Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-03-05 18:00 -0500
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-06 03:01 +0000
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 22:03 -0800
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 17:26 +1100
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 17:32 +1100
Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-05 08:24 -0600
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-05 18:29 +0000
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 22:34 +0200
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 08:01 +1100
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 23:14 +0200
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-06 08:26 +1100
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 23:50 +0200
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-06 00:35 +0000
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-06 11:50 +1100
Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-06 17:46 +0000
Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-05 15:33 -0600
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 08:37 +1100
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-06 02:52 +0200
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 12:05 +1100
Re: Reference alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-03-06 12:12 +1000
Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 21:46 +0000
Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 08:23 +0200
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 22:33 -0800
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 17:40 +1100
Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 12:35 +0000
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 23:45 +1100
Re: Reference Jerry Hill <malaclypse2@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 10:19 -0500
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 15:42 +0000
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 03:02 +1100
Re: Reference Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-03-04 11:14 -0500
Re: Reference MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-03-04 17:12 +0000
Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 08:24 -0800
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 02:25 +1100
Re: Reference Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2014-03-05 14:37 +0100
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 03:59 +0000
Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 09:17 +1100
Re: Reference Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-03-03 18:02 -0500
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 10:09 +1100
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 04:38 +0000
Re: Reference Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-03-03 13:48 -0500
Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 03:45 +0000
Re: Reference Alexander Blinne <news@blinne.net> - 2014-03-04 13:55 +0100
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 01:06 +1100
Re: Reference Alexander Blinne <news@blinne.net> - 2014-03-04 22:53 +0100
Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 09:01 +1100
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