Re: Reference

References	(15 earlier) <87mwh475bc.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <mailman.7833.1394053296.18130.python-list@python.org> <87bnxk73gb.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <mailman.7837.1394054791.18130.python-list@python.org> <5317c2d5$0$29985$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Date	2014-03-06 11:50 +1100
Subject	Re: Reference
From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.7854.1394067013.18130.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

Show all headers | View raw

On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 11:35 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 08:26:22 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> Where's the complaints about circularity now? You're saying "But of
>> course id() returns the address, as long as we define the address as
>> 'whatever id() returns'.". Unimpeachably logical and utterly unhelpful.
>
> That last sentence is wrong. There is nothing logical about just making
> up arbitrary definitions in this way. He could invent *any* definition,
> each more ridiculous than the last:

I mean logical in the sense of pure logic.

If all spam is edible-food
And if this-can is spam
Then this-can is edible-food

The opening premise is false (I wouldn't want to eat a punctured can
that's been sitting around for a few months), but it's still perfectly
logical. The conclusion is guaranteed to be true as long as the
premises are.

In that sense of the word, the statement is indeed logical. That
doesn't stop it from being wrong, but it is logical.

If the 'is' comparison is reflexive,
And if three is four,
Then four is three.

Perfectly logical.

He's saying that the address of an object is simply "whatever id()
returns for that object". Since Python doesn't currently have any
other concept of object addresses, that definition isn't in conflict
with anything. Then he says, look! the id() function returns the
object's address. Well, duh, that's how you defined the address. It's
logical. Of course it returns "the address", since "the address" has
been defined as what it returns. But it doesn't achieve anything to
prove that.

ChrisA

Thread

Reference "ast" <nomail@invalid.com> - 2014-03-03 10:42 +0100
  Object identity (was: Reference) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-03 21:00 +1100
    Re: Object identity (was: Reference) "ast" <nomail@invalid.com> - 2014-03-03 11:21 +0100
  Re: Reference "Mark H. Harris" <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-03-03 05:09 -0800
  Re: Reference Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-03-03 14:29 +0000
  Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-03 07:52 -0800
    Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 08:10 +1100
    Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-03 15:24 -0600
    Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 08:31 +1100
    Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-03 21:35 +0000
      Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-04 00:07 +0200
        Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 09:18 +1100
          Re: Reference Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-03-04 11:10 +0000
            Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 11:48 +0000
              Re: Reference "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2014-03-05 00:25 +0000
    Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-03 15:51 -0600
    Re: Reference Jerry Hill <malaclypse2@gmail.com> - 2014-03-03 17:02 -0500
      Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-04 00:22 +0200
        Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 09:27 +1100
        Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 09:33 +1100
        Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 04:52 +0000
          Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 16:24 +1100
            Re: Reference "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2014-03-05 01:08 +0000
              Re: Reference Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-03-04 21:09 -0500
                Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 19:36 -0800
                Re: Reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 21:08 -0700
                Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 20:31 -0800
                Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 15:32 +1100
                Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 20:47 -0800
                Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-05 05:06 +0000
                Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 21:47 -0800
                Re: Reference alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 16:01 +1000
                Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 22:10 -0800
                Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 17:22 +1100
                Re: Reference alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 16:28 +1000
                Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 12:24 +0000
                Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 12:21 +0000
                Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 17:20 +1100
                Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 09:40 -0800
                Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-05 12:12 -0600
                Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 05:33 +1100
                Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-05 18:19 +0000
                Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 22:23 +0200
                Re: Reference Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-03-05 20:31 +0000
                Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 22:46 +0200
                Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 08:07 +1100
                Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 08:10 +1100
                Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 21:34 +0000
                Re: Reference Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-03-05 18:00 -0500
                Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-06 03:01 +0000
                Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 22:03 -0800
                Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 17:26 +1100
                Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 17:32 +1100
                Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-05 08:24 -0600
                Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-05 18:29 +0000
                Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 22:34 +0200
                Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 08:01 +1100
                Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 23:14 +0200
                Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-06 08:26 +1100
                Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 23:50 +0200
                Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-06 00:35 +0000
                Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-06 11:50 +1100
                Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-06 17:46 +0000
                Re: Reference Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-05 15:33 -0600
                Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 08:37 +1100
                Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-06 02:52 +0200
                Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-06 12:05 +1100
                Re: Reference alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-03-06 12:12 +1000
                Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 21:46 +0000
                Re: Reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-05 08:23 +0200
                Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 22:33 -0800
                Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 17:40 +1100
                Re: Reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 12:35 +0000
                Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 23:45 +1100
          Re: Reference Jerry Hill <malaclypse2@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 10:19 -0500
            Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 15:42 +0000
              Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 03:02 +1100
                Re: Reference Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-03-04 11:14 -0500
              Re: Reference MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-03-04 17:12 +0000
            Re: Reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 08:24 -0800
          Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 02:25 +1100
          Re: Reference Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2014-03-05 14:37 +0100
      Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 03:59 +0000
    Re: Reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-04 09:17 +1100
      Re: Reference Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-03-03 18:02 -0500
        Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 10:09 +1100
        Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 04:38 +0000
  Re: Reference Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-03-03 13:48 -0500
    Re: Reference Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 03:45 +0000
    Re: Reference Alexander Blinne <news@blinne.net> - 2014-03-04 13:55 +0100
      Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 01:06 +1100
        Re: Reference Alexander Blinne <news@blinne.net> - 2014-03-04 22:53 +0100
          Re: Reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 09:01 +1100

csiph-web