Re: this should work

Newsgroups	comp.lang.perl.misc
Subject	Re: this should work
References	<krkm21$19jd$1@news.ntua.gr> <87txk0oioo.fsf@sapphire.mobileactivedefense.com> <spt3ba-i9r2.ln1@anubis.morrow.me.uk> <87ip0cgfli.fsf@sapphire.mobileactivedefense.com>
From	Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Organization	morrow.me.uk
Date	2013-07-15 14:07 +0100
Message-ID	<kp8dba-9591.ln1@anubis.morrow.me.uk> (permalink)

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Quoth Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com>:
> Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> writes:
> 
> > A variable is just a way of giving a value a name;
> 
> This is true for so-called 'functional programming languages' but Perl
> isn't one: There, a 'variable' is something like a deposit box
> (term?): A container which can be used to store 'stuff' of a certain
> kind (depending on the type of box) until it is again needed which can
> be 'addressed' in a convenient way (usually, by using an abstract name
> referring to the 'function' of this variable).

How is that different from 'just a way of giving a value a name'?

> > The whole point of lexical variables is to avoid the problems that
> > occur when uncontrolled and implicit data leakage occurs between
> > different parts of the program; having Perl ensure that values we no
> > longer need are properly disposed of as soon as possible is just
> > common sense.
> >
> > (And, again, this is not about efficiency, either of CPU or memory. It's
> > about making the code comprehensible.)
> 
> IMO, it is about making the code incomprehensible for the sake of
> 'efficiency', namely, to avoid the dreaded, mythological function call
> overhead, by cramming as many different algorithms into a single run
> of sequential code as seems remotely feasible instead of giving
> 'different things different names' and invoke them using these in
> higher-level control routines. If 'possible information leakage'
> becomes a problem, the constituent parts of 'the code' are way too
> large and do way too many different things.

We were discussing these two forms:

    for (...) {                         my $tmp;
        my $tmp = "/.../$_";            for (...) {;
        ...;                                $tmp = "/.../$_";
    }                                       ...;
                                        }

and you claimed the second was superior on grounds of efficiency. Sub
call overhead doesn't come into it.

> >> Do you think it was programmed to work around that because this is
> >> such a great idea? I don't. Especially since the computer can only
> >> work around the execution time penalty of this convention and not
> >> against the mess in the source code ("which of the 1,375 $i I
> >> encountered in the last 2000 lines of code is it this time?").
> >
> > Um, it's the one in the 'my' statement just above your cursor. That's
> > the whole point of tight scoping: except for the various kinds of
> > globals, which should not be created lightly and do require planning,
> > the scope of a single variable should not exceed one screenful of
> > code.
> 
> Except if 'screenful' is supposed to refer to 80x25,

Of course.

> it should
> usually be less: Some random 'screenful of code' I just looked at (148
> lines of text) contained five different complete subroutines whose
> bodies where (from top to bottome), 5 lines of text, 12 lines of text,
> 17 lines of text, 4 lines of text and 1 line of text.

Do you understand the meaning of 'should not exceed'?

> > If you are having to deal with code which has multiple variables with
> > the same name in nested scopes, some extending over hundreds of lines of
> > code, you have my sympathies. That is not a code style I am
> > advocating.
> 
> It's rather "multiple variables of the same type with the names spelled
> somewhat differently, eg mdmCommand, MdmCommand and MDMCommand, all
> supposed to contain the same thing, namely, the current MDM command,
> which occur (or in this case, occurred) in the same 'hundreds of lines
> of code' subroutine (Java method), with the number of different
> spellings presumably equal to the number of different people who added
> code to this particular method" (this is slight 'abstraction' of the
> actual situation, but IMO an honest one). And without the possiblity
> to 'declare variables on the spot' whenever one is needed, something
> like this couldn't occur.

Why are you talking about Java? Who (here) cares about Java? Everyone
knows it encourages poor programmers to write incomprehensible rubbish.

Ben

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this should work "George Mpouras" <nospam.gravitalsun.antispam@spamno.hotmail.anispam.com.nospam> - 2013-07-11 01:08 +0300
  Re: this should work Jim Gibson <jimsgibson@gmail.com> - 2013-07-10 15:49 -0700
    Re: this should work George Mpouras <nospam.gravitalsun.noadsplease@hotmail.noads.com> - 2013-07-11 09:42 +0300
      Re: this should work tmcd@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) - 2013-07-11 08:02 +0000
        Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 12:45 +0100
          Re: this should work George Mpouras <nospam.gravitalsun.noadsplease@hotmail.noads.com> - 2013-07-11 15:03 +0300
            Re: this should work "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet3@hjp.at> - 2013-07-11 14:52 +0200
              Re: this should work George Mpouras <nospam.gravitalsun.noadsplease@hotmail.noads.com> - 2013-07-11 16:01 +0300
                Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 14:29 +0100
        Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 14:27 +0100
          Re: this should work Peter Makholm <peter@makholm.net> - 2013-07-11 15:50 +0200
      Re: this should work Jürgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com> - 2013-07-11 03:34 -0700
        Re: this should work George Mpouras <nospam.gravitalsun.noadsplease@hotmail.noads.com> - 2013-07-11 13:55 +0300
          Re: this should work Peter Makholm <peter@makholm.net> - 2013-07-11 13:57 +0200
          Re: this should work Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2013-07-11 09:10 -0400
            Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 21:35 +0100
    Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 10:32 +0100
      Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 12:51 +0100
        Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 13:42 +0100
          Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 16:23 +0100
            Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 17:17 +0100
              Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 18:08 +0100
              Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 21:48 +0100
          Re: this should work Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> - 2013-07-11 10:32 -0700
            Re: this should work Jürgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com> - 2013-07-11 10:48 -0700
              Re: this should work "George Mpouras" <nospam.gravitalsun.antispam@spamno.hotmail.anispam.com.nospam> - 2013-07-11 21:38 +0300
              Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 23:08 +0100
            Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 18:48 +0100
              Re: this should work Charles DeRykus <derykus@gmail.com> - 2013-07-11 12:03 -0700
                Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 22:02 +0100
                Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 23:06 +0100
                Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-12 01:04 +0100
                Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-15 13:41 +0100
                Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-15 14:07 +0100
                Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-15 15:05 +0100
                Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-15 21:02 +0100
                Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-15 23:58 +0100
                Re: this should work tmcd@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) - 2013-07-15 17:23 +0000
                Re: this should work Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@chromatico.net> - 2013-07-15 15:40 -0400
              Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 21:58 +0100
                Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 23:17 +0100
                [OT] scoping Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2013-07-12 07:50 +0000
                Re: [OT] scoping aka 'new holes in old shoes' Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-12 11:53 +0100
                [OT] engineering Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2013-07-15 11:37 +0000
                Re: [OT] engineering Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-16 21:49 +0100
                Re: [OT] engineering Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2013-07-17 09:27 +0000
                Re: [OT] engineering Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-17 15:53 +0100
                Re: [OT] engineering Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2013-07-22 10:36 +0000
                Re: [OT] engineering Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2013-07-23 06:43 -0400
                Re: [OT] engineering Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2013-07-22 10:38 +0000
                Re: [OT] engineering Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2013-07-26 10:09 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet3@hjp.at> - 2013-07-12 14:58 +0200
                Re: [OT] scoping Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-12 15:50 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2013-07-12 13:34 -0400
                Re: [OT] scoping Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-12 22:04 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-13 13:13 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping John Black <jblack@nospam.com> - 2013-07-13 20:01 -0500
                Re: [OT] scoping Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-14 03:24 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping "Dr.Ruud" <rvtol+usenet@xs4all.nl> - 2013-07-14 10:49 +0200
                Re: [OT] scoping Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-14 13:13 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping "Dr.Ruud" <rvtol+usenet@xs4all.nl> - 2013-07-14 17:02 +0200
                Re: [OT] scoping Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-14 22:21 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping "Dr.Ruud" <rvtol+usenet@xs4all.nl> - 2013-07-15 02:21 +0200
                Re: [OT] scoping Xho Jingleheimerschmidt <xhoster@gmail.com> - 2013-07-14 17:04 -0700
                Re: [OT] scoping Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-15 14:12 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping tmcd@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) - 2013-07-14 15:11 +0000
                Re: [OT] scoping "Dr.Ruud" <rvtol+usenet@xs4all.nl> - 2013-07-14 17:34 +0200
                Re: [OT] scoping Xho Jingleheimerschmidt <xhoster@gmail.com> - 2013-07-14 15:34 -0700
                Re: [OT] scoping Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-15 14:27 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping John Black <jblack@nospam.com> - 2013-07-14 23:48 -0500
                Re: [OT] scoping Martijn Lievaart <m@rtij.nl.invlalid> - 2013-07-13 12:14 +0200
      Re: this should work David Harmon <source@netcom.com> - 2013-07-11 10:02 -0700
        Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 22:04 +0100
          Re: this should work David Harmon <source@netcom.com> - 2013-07-12 09:34 -0700
            Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-12 18:16 +0100
        Re: this should work "Dr.Ruud" <rvtol+usenet@xs4all.nl> - 2013-07-12 15:44 +0200
          Re: this should work David Harmon <source@netcom.com> - 2013-07-12 15:53 -0700
  Re: this should work Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2013-07-11 09:14 -0400
    Re: this should work "George Mpouras" <nospam.gravitalsun.antispam@spamno.hotmail.anispam.com.nospam> - 2013-07-11 19:45 +0300

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