Re: this should work

From	Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.perl.misc
Subject	Re: this should work
Date	2013-07-11 14:27 +0100
Message-ID	<87d2qpcjma.fsf@sapphire.mobileactivedefense.com> (permalink)
References	<krkm21$19jd$1@news.ntua.gr> <100720131549354102%jimsgibson@gmail.com> <krlk2f$2e7e$1@news.ntua.gr> <krlorb$4k3$1@reader2.panix.com>

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tmcd@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) writes:
> In article <krlk2f$2e7e$1@news.ntua.gr>,
> George Mpouras  <nospam.gravitalsun.noadsplease@hotmail.noads.com> wrote:

[so-called 'aliasing in for loops']

>>it is a perl bug or bad behavior , should change.
>
> I don't like it -- it's an "action at a distance spookiness" effect
> that I've found little use for.  I just work around it.

[...]

> "Misfeature" or "bad design":

I think a discrepancy between your 'mental model' of 'Perl execution'
and the way it actually works exists here: In perl, values are always
represented as SVs ('scalars') and a SV is a pretty complex object,
copying of which may be 'expensive', eg, the following perl code:

---
use Devel::Peek;

my $s = 'string';
my $ss = $s;

Dump($s);
Dump($ss);
---

causes a the string assigned to s to be copied to a newly, dynamically
allocated area of memory, as can be seen in the output generated when
running this code:

---
SV = PV(0x603b78) at 0x621188
  REFCNT = 1
  FLAGS = (PADMY,POK,pPOK)
  PV = 0x61b9f0 "string"\0
  CUR = 6
  LEN = 8
SV = PV(0x603c38) at 0x6211b8
  REFCNT = 1
  FLAGS = (PADMY,POK,pPOK)
  PV = 0x617a10 "string"\0
  CUR = 6
  LEN = 8
---

Because an SV is not really a 'value' in the sense of, say, a C
integer or pointer, it is always passed 'by reference' into
syntactical constructs which work with 'lists of SVs' such as map { },
for ( ) { } or subroutine calls and it is up to the user to copy the
'argument SV' in case an independently modifiable copy of the original
thing is actually needed for some reason (perl supports, supported or
was supposed to support COW-sharing of 'SV string bodies' in some
circumstance or at some point in the in the past, but except 'somebody
worked on that in the past', I don't really know any details about
that). That's similar to the way Java handles this where complex
objects are always passed 'by reference', just that Java also has
'primitive types' which are passed by value and Perl doesn't.

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this should work "George Mpouras" <nospam.gravitalsun.antispam@spamno.hotmail.anispam.com.nospam> - 2013-07-11 01:08 +0300
  Re: this should work Jim Gibson <jimsgibson@gmail.com> - 2013-07-10 15:49 -0700
    Re: this should work George Mpouras <nospam.gravitalsun.noadsplease@hotmail.noads.com> - 2013-07-11 09:42 +0300
      Re: this should work tmcd@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) - 2013-07-11 08:02 +0000
        Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 12:45 +0100
          Re: this should work George Mpouras <nospam.gravitalsun.noadsplease@hotmail.noads.com> - 2013-07-11 15:03 +0300
            Re: this should work "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet3@hjp.at> - 2013-07-11 14:52 +0200
              Re: this should work George Mpouras <nospam.gravitalsun.noadsplease@hotmail.noads.com> - 2013-07-11 16:01 +0300
                Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 14:29 +0100
        Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 14:27 +0100
          Re: this should work Peter Makholm <peter@makholm.net> - 2013-07-11 15:50 +0200
      Re: this should work Jürgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com> - 2013-07-11 03:34 -0700
        Re: this should work George Mpouras <nospam.gravitalsun.noadsplease@hotmail.noads.com> - 2013-07-11 13:55 +0300
          Re: this should work Peter Makholm <peter@makholm.net> - 2013-07-11 13:57 +0200
          Re: this should work Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2013-07-11 09:10 -0400
            Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 21:35 +0100
    Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 10:32 +0100
      Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 12:51 +0100
        Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 13:42 +0100
          Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 16:23 +0100
            Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 17:17 +0100
              Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 18:08 +0100
              Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 21:48 +0100
          Re: this should work Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> - 2013-07-11 10:32 -0700
            Re: this should work Jürgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com> - 2013-07-11 10:48 -0700
              Re: this should work "George Mpouras" <nospam.gravitalsun.antispam@spamno.hotmail.anispam.com.nospam> - 2013-07-11 21:38 +0300
              Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 23:08 +0100
            Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 18:48 +0100
              Re: this should work Charles DeRykus <derykus@gmail.com> - 2013-07-11 12:03 -0700
                Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 22:02 +0100
                Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 23:06 +0100
                Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-12 01:04 +0100
                Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-15 13:41 +0100
                Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-15 14:07 +0100
                Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-15 15:05 +0100
                Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-15 21:02 +0100
                Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-15 23:58 +0100
                Re: this should work tmcd@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) - 2013-07-15 17:23 +0000
                Re: this should work Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@chromatico.net> - 2013-07-15 15:40 -0400
              Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 21:58 +0100
                Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 23:17 +0100
                [OT] scoping Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2013-07-12 07:50 +0000
                Re: [OT] scoping aka 'new holes in old shoes' Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-12 11:53 +0100
                [OT] engineering Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2013-07-15 11:37 +0000
                Re: [OT] engineering Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-16 21:49 +0100
                Re: [OT] engineering Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2013-07-17 09:27 +0000
                Re: [OT] engineering Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-17 15:53 +0100
                Re: [OT] engineering Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2013-07-22 10:36 +0000
                Re: [OT] engineering Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2013-07-23 06:43 -0400
                Re: [OT] engineering Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2013-07-22 10:38 +0000
                Re: [OT] engineering Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2013-07-26 10:09 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet3@hjp.at> - 2013-07-12 14:58 +0200
                Re: [OT] scoping Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-12 15:50 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2013-07-12 13:34 -0400
                Re: [OT] scoping Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-12 22:04 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-13 13:13 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping John Black <jblack@nospam.com> - 2013-07-13 20:01 -0500
                Re: [OT] scoping Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-14 03:24 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping "Dr.Ruud" <rvtol+usenet@xs4all.nl> - 2013-07-14 10:49 +0200
                Re: [OT] scoping Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-14 13:13 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping "Dr.Ruud" <rvtol+usenet@xs4all.nl> - 2013-07-14 17:02 +0200
                Re: [OT] scoping Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-14 22:21 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping "Dr.Ruud" <rvtol+usenet@xs4all.nl> - 2013-07-15 02:21 +0200
                Re: [OT] scoping Xho Jingleheimerschmidt <xhoster@gmail.com> - 2013-07-14 17:04 -0700
                Re: [OT] scoping Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-15 14:12 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping tmcd@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) - 2013-07-14 15:11 +0000
                Re: [OT] scoping "Dr.Ruud" <rvtol+usenet@xs4all.nl> - 2013-07-14 17:34 +0200
                Re: [OT] scoping Xho Jingleheimerschmidt <xhoster@gmail.com> - 2013-07-14 15:34 -0700
                Re: [OT] scoping Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-15 14:27 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping John Black <jblack@nospam.com> - 2013-07-14 23:48 -0500
                Re: [OT] scoping Martijn Lievaart <m@rtij.nl.invlalid> - 2013-07-13 12:14 +0200
      Re: this should work David Harmon <source@netcom.com> - 2013-07-11 10:02 -0700
        Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 22:04 +0100
          Re: this should work David Harmon <source@netcom.com> - 2013-07-12 09:34 -0700
            Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-12 18:16 +0100
        Re: this should work "Dr.Ruud" <rvtol+usenet@xs4all.nl> - 2013-07-12 15:44 +0200
          Re: this should work David Harmon <source@netcom.com> - 2013-07-12 15:53 -0700
  Re: this should work Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2013-07-11 09:14 -0400
    Re: this should work "George Mpouras" <nospam.gravitalsun.antispam@spamno.hotmail.anispam.com.nospam> - 2013-07-11 19:45 +0300

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