Re: [OT] engineering

From	Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.perl.misc, comp.programming, alt.food
Subject	Re: [OT] engineering
Date	2013-07-22 10:36 +0000
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<87d2qaubif.fsf@violet.siamics.net> (permalink)
References	(7 earlier) <877ggw2gnk.fsf_-_@sapphire.mobileactivedefense.com> <87mwpouk89.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> <8761wai616.fsf@sapphire.mobileactivedefense.com> <87a9llv8n2.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <878v15z35d.fsf@sapphire.mobileactivedefense.com>

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

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>>>>> Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> writes:
>>>>> Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> writes:

 > The text below is only remotely concerned with software engineering

	It's still concerned with food, though, which I'm having a kind
	of a lifelong interest in.

[...]

 >>> Minus some obvious misconceptions (eg, the 'off the shelf' food is
 >>> designed by 'food engineers' to be 'soundly nutrirional', ie,
 >>> contain everything fashion currently demands that it should and
 >>> not contain anything fashion demands that it currently mustn't,

 >> The nutritional requirements of an average healthy adult are more or
 >> less well-known (check, e. g., [1]), and do not depend much on
 >> "fashion," whatever one's misconceptions may be.

 >> [1] http://www.iom.edu/Global/News%20Announcements/~/media/Files/Activity%20Files/Nutrition/DRIs/DRI_Summary_Listing.pdf

 > I'm sorry if I didn't pay proper respect to your preferred
 > (mis-)conception, but there are simply to many of them, even when
 > just counting 'current' ones which include books of
 > impressively-looking tables.

	While I understand the importance of doubt, I'd like to point
	that in this case, these "impressively-looking tables" are based
	on the very same kind of scientific evidence as that a surgeon
	or a rocket engineer rely upon.

	Sadly, the conventional wisdom puts more trust in glossies that
	it does in the Institute of Medicine publications.

 > Prior to Mad Cow Disease, nutrional requirements of cows were already
 > well-known.

	Isn't it stretched a bit?  It sounds as if prions were once
	thought as a constituent of a healthy cow diet, and then, -- all
	of a sudden, -- were found not to be.  (While in reality, the
	"health benefits" of prions are as dependent on "fashion," as
	are those of the most of cyanides, dioxins, or strychnine.)

 > Do we really have a surge of ideologically blinded suicide bombers
 > nowadays?

	Somehow, it was my understanding that the family of a suicide
	bomber will at times receive support from those "authorizing"
	the bombing.  Therefore, it indeed may have more to do with the
	"diet" than with the "ideology."

[...]

 >>> while less sophisticated people like me get by somehow with
 >>> vegetables, meat, spices

 >> (... Except that all of the above were "engineered," one way or the
 >> other.)

 > Indeed.  I remember an old joke which went roughly like this:

[...]

 > With the help of a suitable set of definitions, any term can be
 > interpreted to mean anything, at the expense of rendering meaningful
 > communication impossible (which may be desired).

	Yet another joke I recall says that one doesn't ask questions to
	a programmer, for the answer will be true, precise, and useless
	in practice.

	But the fact is: the varieties grown on the fields of today are
	"better" (at least when it comes to the yield; and the
	difference may easily be of an order of magnitude) than those
	cultivated a century ago; and it's likely that those that will
	be grown a century from now will be "better" still.

	So, the choice is: to wait, or to use what's available right
	now?

 >>> and tools to prepare these in some completely 'unscientific' way),

 >> The "food engineers" of today have learned that they have to make
 >> food "tasty", not "healthy," in order to succeed.  Which more or
 >> less corresponds to what I may otherwise call an "unscientific" way.

 > The purpose of 'the sense of taste' is to enable distinction between
 > 'healthy' and 'unhealthy' things one could possibly eat.  It works
 > better for horses because these tend to approach the matter
 > empirically and with an unprejudiced mind, something humans,
 > especially humans wielding statistics, rarely do.

	The evolution (which gave the horse its "sense of taste" -- as
	well as all the other senses) is as wise as it's blind.  And, if
	it's so easy to fool the eye with an optical illusion, shouldn't
	it be at least remotely possible to fool one's sense of taste?

	Why, it was my understanding that it's what at least some of the
	pesticides do: use a toxin which is "tasty" to its victim.
	(Something that, they argue, is the ultimate goal of the
	"fast food" industry of today.)

 >>> I have no idea what this was supposed to mean.

 >> My point is simple: if the deadline is today, one has to forget
 >> about "science" (be it Wirth's, Borlaug's, or someone's else), and
 >> use whatever "ingredients" available to solve the task at hand.  Be
 >> it a program, or a dinner.

 > That just a convenient justification the proverbial old poodle uses
 > in order to defend against the supposition of having to learn new
 > tricks: Whatever the benefits might be, I've got no time for this
 > ATM, I'm to busy performing the old ones, constantly working around
 > their deficiencies, and won't ever have any time for that, either.

	And it's quite natural, and happens in just every field of human
	activity.  To paraphrase, it takes a touch of genius to do
	otherwise.

	I'd like to also respond to the other argument here.

 > According to my experience, writing 'bad' code (for a suitable
 > definition of 'bad') doesn't take less time than writing 'good' code
 > (for a suitable definition of 'good')

	... It sounds as if the time required to learn to write "good"
	code was somehow assumed to be zero or negligible, while I
	sincerely doubt that it really is.

-- 
FSF associate member #7257

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this should work "George Mpouras" <nospam.gravitalsun.antispam@spamno.hotmail.anispam.com.nospam> - 2013-07-11 01:08 +0300
  Re: this should work Jim Gibson <jimsgibson@gmail.com> - 2013-07-10 15:49 -0700
    Re: this should work George Mpouras <nospam.gravitalsun.noadsplease@hotmail.noads.com> - 2013-07-11 09:42 +0300
      Re: this should work tmcd@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) - 2013-07-11 08:02 +0000
        Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 12:45 +0100
          Re: this should work George Mpouras <nospam.gravitalsun.noadsplease@hotmail.noads.com> - 2013-07-11 15:03 +0300
            Re: this should work "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet3@hjp.at> - 2013-07-11 14:52 +0200
              Re: this should work George Mpouras <nospam.gravitalsun.noadsplease@hotmail.noads.com> - 2013-07-11 16:01 +0300
                Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 14:29 +0100
        Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 14:27 +0100
          Re: this should work Peter Makholm <peter@makholm.net> - 2013-07-11 15:50 +0200
      Re: this should work Jürgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com> - 2013-07-11 03:34 -0700
        Re: this should work George Mpouras <nospam.gravitalsun.noadsplease@hotmail.noads.com> - 2013-07-11 13:55 +0300
          Re: this should work Peter Makholm <peter@makholm.net> - 2013-07-11 13:57 +0200
          Re: this should work Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2013-07-11 09:10 -0400
            Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 21:35 +0100
    Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 10:32 +0100
      Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 12:51 +0100
        Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 13:42 +0100
          Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 16:23 +0100
            Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 17:17 +0100
              Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 18:08 +0100
              Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 21:48 +0100
          Re: this should work Keith Keller <kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> - 2013-07-11 10:32 -0700
            Re: this should work Jürgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com> - 2013-07-11 10:48 -0700
              Re: this should work "George Mpouras" <nospam.gravitalsun.antispam@spamno.hotmail.anispam.com.nospam> - 2013-07-11 21:38 +0300
              Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 23:08 +0100
            Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 18:48 +0100
              Re: this should work Charles DeRykus <derykus@gmail.com> - 2013-07-11 12:03 -0700
                Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 22:02 +0100
                Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 23:06 +0100
                Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-12 01:04 +0100
                Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-15 13:41 +0100
                Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-15 14:07 +0100
                Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-15 15:05 +0100
                Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-15 21:02 +0100
                Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-15 23:58 +0100
                Re: this should work tmcd@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) - 2013-07-15 17:23 +0000
                Re: this should work Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@chromatico.net> - 2013-07-15 15:40 -0400
              Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 21:58 +0100
                Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-11 23:17 +0100
                [OT] scoping Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2013-07-12 07:50 +0000
                Re: [OT] scoping aka 'new holes in old shoes' Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-12 11:53 +0100
                [OT] engineering Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2013-07-15 11:37 +0000
                Re: [OT] engineering Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-16 21:49 +0100
                Re: [OT] engineering Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2013-07-17 09:27 +0000
                Re: [OT] engineering Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-17 15:53 +0100
                Re: [OT] engineering Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2013-07-22 10:36 +0000
                Re: [OT] engineering Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2013-07-23 06:43 -0400
                Re: [OT] engineering Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2013-07-22 10:38 +0000
                Re: [OT] engineering Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2013-07-26 10:09 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet3@hjp.at> - 2013-07-12 14:58 +0200
                Re: [OT] scoping Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-12 15:50 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2013-07-12 13:34 -0400
                Re: [OT] scoping Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-12 22:04 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-13 13:13 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping John Black <jblack@nospam.com> - 2013-07-13 20:01 -0500
                Re: [OT] scoping Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-14 03:24 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping "Dr.Ruud" <rvtol+usenet@xs4all.nl> - 2013-07-14 10:49 +0200
                Re: [OT] scoping Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-14 13:13 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping "Dr.Ruud" <rvtol+usenet@xs4all.nl> - 2013-07-14 17:02 +0200
                Re: [OT] scoping Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-14 22:21 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping "Dr.Ruud" <rvtol+usenet@xs4all.nl> - 2013-07-15 02:21 +0200
                Re: [OT] scoping Xho Jingleheimerschmidt <xhoster@gmail.com> - 2013-07-14 17:04 -0700
                Re: [OT] scoping Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-15 14:12 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping tmcd@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) - 2013-07-14 15:11 +0000
                Re: [OT] scoping "Dr.Ruud" <rvtol+usenet@xs4all.nl> - 2013-07-14 17:34 +0200
                Re: [OT] scoping David Harmon <source@netcom.com> - 2013-09-15 16:16 -0700
                Re: [OT] scoping Xho Jingleheimerschmidt <xhoster@gmail.com> - 2013-09-15 19:23 -0700
                Re: [OT] scoping Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-09-16 10:46 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping Xho Jingleheimerschmidt <xhoster@gmail.com> - 2013-07-14 15:34 -0700
                Re: [OT] scoping Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-15 14:27 +0100
                Re: [OT] scoping John Black <jblack@nospam.com> - 2013-07-14 23:48 -0500
                Re: [OT] scoping Martijn Lievaart <m@rtij.nl.invlalid> - 2013-07-13 12:14 +0200
      Re: this should work David Harmon <source@netcom.com> - 2013-07-11 10:02 -0700
        Re: this should work Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> - 2013-07-11 22:04 +0100
          Re: this should work David Harmon <source@netcom.com> - 2013-07-12 09:34 -0700
            Re: this should work Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> - 2013-07-12 18:16 +0100
        Re: this should work "Dr.Ruud" <rvtol+usenet@xs4all.nl> - 2013-07-12 15:44 +0200
          Re: this should work David Harmon <source@netcom.com> - 2013-07-12 15:53 -0700
  Re: this should work Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2013-07-11 09:14 -0400
    Re: this should work "George Mpouras" <nospam.gravitalsun.antispam@spamno.hotmail.anispam.com.nospam> - 2013-07-11 19:45 +0300

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