Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #233754

Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix

From	cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross)
Newsgroups	alt.folklore.computers
Subject	Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix
Date	2026-01-29 14:06 +0000
Organization	PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID	<10lfpgb$q55$1@reader2.panix.com> (permalink)
References	<10lb6d7$3she5$1@dont-email.me> <87h5s6pajm.fsf@rpi3> <10lc9ai$6dsr$2@dont-email.me> <87y0lheeuj.fsf@atr2.ath.cx>

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In article <87y0lheeuj.fsf@atr2.ath.cx>,
jayjwa  <jayjwa@atr2.ath.cx.invalid> wrote:
>Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>> I do find it odd that he was taught to use “cat” to look at files --
>> surely the “more” command was already available at the time, and
>> provided the screenful-at-a-time display that he clearly felt was
>> lacking.
>
>And what of "pg"? Everyone is taught "cat" but no one mentions "pg". It
>had to have been around back then. My Linux verson is util-linux, but my
>Sun/illumos one has a man page dated 1996. 

The article people are talking about was published in Datamation
in November, 1981.  One can reasonably expect that the article
must have been written before that; perhaps mid 1981.

The `more` command was written by Dan Halbert in 1978, and first
distributed in 3BSD, in late 1979; probably around 18-20 months
before Norman's article was written.

Norman mentions that he is using 4BSD on a VAX, and aludes to
`more`, but doesn't name it explicitly: he describes it having
advantages including, "a richer and more intelligent set of
system programs (including a list program, an intelligent screen
editor, an intelligent set of routines for interacting with
terminals according to their capabilities)".  In context, he
used the term "list" to mean "display the contents of a file";
not "list" as in the `ls` command (which is, maybe ironically, a
specialized program to list the contents of directory files), so
we may surmise that here he is referring to `more`, `vi`, and
either `termcap` or `curses`, respectively.

All that said, his criticism is mostly aimed at "Unix" circa 7th
Edition; perhaps unfair in 1981, but not excessively so, since
it would still be extremely common.  He seems to refer to this
as "standard" Unix.

Much of the reaction seemed defensive, but Mike Lesk's rebuttal
in a sidebar in the original Datamation appearance is sound
where Norman takes his argument to excess, and well worth a
read: http://www.bitsavers.org/magazines/Datamation/198111.pdf
(Note that Lesk also mentions both `pg` and `more`.)

Some of Norman's criticism was good and remains relevant: lots
of us have suffered greatly due to a misplaced glob character,
and that's something he points out specifically.

I can't help but think that his criticism isn't so much about
Unix the operating system, but more about the shell, programming
libraries, and names of standard commands.  But one of the
enduring strengths of Unix was that _all_ of those things could
be changed.  Nothing has ever stopped a site from creating an
`/altunix/bin` directory full of differently named programs that
do whatever it is that Norman would want, including a different
shell with different behavior with respect to globbing and so
on.  This is in contrast to other systems of the day, where
doing such a thing would have been much harder (often because
commands were built into the command interpreter, which couldn't
be changed, even if it was a separate program).

>> As for dealing with files with strange characters in their names --
>> the “dsw” command he mentioned is not needed any more, and I don’t
>> think anything like it even exists on current *nix systems.
>
>It probably stood for "delete stupid words", or possibly, the initials

"Delete From Switches": you could use the console switches on
the PDP-7 to toggle in a number; the command would read that
many entries from the directory file you gave it (`.` by
default), and then print out the file name it found at that
offset and issue a prompt.  If you responded in the affirmative,
it would generate a core file that, if ran (yes, you could run
core files on PDP-7 Unix) would delete the file.  It was a way
to delete files with unprintable/typeable characters in the
filename.

Later, once moved to the PDP-11, it just did the unlink directly
instead of the weird core file business.  Once the `rm` command
grew the `-i` option, it was unnecessary and eventually removed.

>of the programmer's name. TOPS-10 has DELFIL, which was so kindly
>pointed out to me, to delete directories out of [1,1] which are normally
>not killable via "del". 
>
>> Oh, and that weird “ed” editor is still available as part of the GNU
>> tools, for those who really want to use it. Thankfully it is far from
>> the only choice available -- and I’ve certainly never felt the need to
>> come close enough to touch it with a ten-foot pole.
>.sos ed.txt
>Creating ED.TXT
>00100   /bin/ed is a bit like TOPS-10's "sos" or maybe TOPS-20's "edit"
>00200   but ever so slightly less user-friendly. I recall DOS had a 
>00300   scrolly editor so that you didn't have to use "edline" but 
>00400   I've since forgotten its name. Maybe it was just "edit". This
>00500   was around the time Turbo Pascal and Quick BASIC were out.
>00600   $
>*e
>[DSKB:ED.TXT]

`ed` (pronounced "e-d", or "ee dee", by the way, not as in "Ed")
came from QED on the Berkeley timesharing system (it's amazing
how much stuff came from that system) and has been recreated in
multiple places (e.g., `qedx` on Multics).

Dennis Ritchie went into some of the history of ed here:
https://www.nokia.com/bell-labs/about/dennis-m-ritchie/qed.html

	- Dan C.

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Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-27 20:15 +0000
  Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-27 15:58 -0500
    Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix jayjwa <jayjwa@atr2.ath.cx.invalid> - 2026-01-27 21:00 -0500
      Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-28 03:24 +0000
        Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-27 21:41 -0700
          Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-28 04:45 +0000
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-28 05:26 +0000
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-28 08:00 -0700
              Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-28 23:47 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 00:47 +0000
        Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-01-28 12:07 +0000
          Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-28 13:37 +0000
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-28 15:21 +0000
              Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Adam Sampson <ats@offog.org> - 2026-01-28 19:54 +0000
              Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-28 23:45 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 00:56 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-28 20:29 -0700
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-29 16:09 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-29 19:32 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-29 20:40 +0000
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-28 15:55 +0000
              Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-28 18:31 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-28 14:10 -0500
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-01-28 16:26 -0500
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 00:59 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-28 22:26 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-29 06:54 -0500
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-29 14:50 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-30 13:04 -0800
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-31 15:10 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-31 11:59 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-31 16:39 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-31 20:56 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-02-02 10:36 -0800
              Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-29 14:39 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-29 16:01 +0000
              Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-01-30 17:19 +0000
          Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-28 08:11 -0700
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-28 14:15 -0500
          Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-28 22:25 +0000
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 00:52 +0000
      Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-28 04:19 +0000
      Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-28 06:55 -0500
        Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-28 12:01 +0000
      Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-28 15:51 +0000
        Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-28 16:14 -0800
          Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-29 06:30 +0000
        Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-29 15:34 +0000
          Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-29 19:32 +0000
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-29 12:49 -0700
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 20:01 +0000
              Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-29 22:56 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-30 00:58 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-01-30 23:49 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-31 04:55 +0000
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-29 23:48 +0000
              Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-30 07:35 -0700
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-30 11:29 -0500
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-30 19:18 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-30 12:22 -0800
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-30 22:26 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-31 05:04 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-31 04:58 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-31 06:59 -0500
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-31 18:10 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-31 19:39 +0000
              Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix jayjwa <jayjwa@atr2.ath.cx.invalid> - 2026-01-30 13:57 -0500
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-30 21:11 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-01-30 18:59 -0500
      Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Beej Jorgensen <beej@beej.us> - 2026-02-02 02:22 +0000
    Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Daniel <me@sc1f1dan.com> - 2026-01-27 21:32 -0800
      Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-28 06:11 +0000
        Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-28 07:07 -0500
          Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-29 06:30 +0000
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 15:28 +0000
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-29 17:14 +0000
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-01-30 17:32 +0000
              Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-30 13:03 -0700
              Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-30 21:18 +0000
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-31 11:30 +0000
              Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2026-01-31 19:22 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-31 21:08 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-31 22:52 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-01 01:37 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-01 05:44 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-01 06:15 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-01 06:23 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-01 06:50 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-01 06:58 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-02-01 17:56 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-02-01 07:38 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-02-01 07:24 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-02-01 08:28 -0500
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-02-01 19:48 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-02-02 11:44 -0500
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-02-02 19:49 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Beej Jorgensen <beej@beej.us> - 2026-02-03 19:40 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-02-04 00:58 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Beej Jorgensen <beej@beej.us> - 2026-02-05 05:52 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2026-02-04 11:08 +0100
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-02-01 08:18 -0500
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-02-01 08:16 -0500
            ed (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2026-02-02 15:31 +0000
              Re: ed (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-02-02 17:36 +0000
                Re: ed (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-02-02 20:19 +0000
                Re: ed (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-02-02 20:46 +0000
                Re: ed (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-02 21:01 +0000
        Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix jayjwa <jayjwa@atr2.ath.cx.invalid> - 2026-01-28 14:07 -0500
          Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Adam Sampson <ats@offog.org> - 2026-01-28 19:40 +0000
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-28 17:30 -0500
          Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-28 20:19 +0000
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-28 13:50 -0700
              Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-28 22:13 +0000
              Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-29 06:30 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 15:24 +0000
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-29 06:30 +0000
              Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-29 07:59 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-29 19:32 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-29 20:48 +0000
                less is *not* really more or less like more? (was: Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-30 09:51 +0000
                Re: less is *not* really more or less like more? (was: Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-30 19:18 +0000
              Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-01-30 15:14 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-30 15:50 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-30 18:46 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-30 20:56 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-01-31 13:10 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-30 21:15 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-01-31 13:14 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-31 20:57 +0000
          Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2026-01-28 21:50 +0000
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-28 22:24 +0000
              Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 01:19 +0000
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-28 17:32 -0500
              Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 01:42 +0000
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-29 14:34 +0000
            pg (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2026-02-02 15:39 +0000
          Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-28 17:27 -0500
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 01:17 +0000
          Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-29 14:06 +0000
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-29 12:42 -0700
              Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-30 11:01 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-30 07:44 -0700
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-30 15:48 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-30 12:55 -0800
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-31 16:47 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-02-05 10:35 -0800
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-09 13:10 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-02-16 15:49 -0800
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-30 21:18 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-31 07:40 -0700
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-31 17:58 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2026-01-31 19:44 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-01 15:09 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-02-01 08:12 -0500
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-31 21:05 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-31 22:52 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-01 01:35 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-02-01 06:32 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-01 06:49 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-02-02 09:47 -0800
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-02-01 00:40 -0700
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-01 08:59 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-01 15:06 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-02-01 12:54 -0700
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-01 19:57 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-02-01 14:21 -0700
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-01 21:31 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-02-02 17:33 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-02 18:10 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-02 18:08 +0000
                Re: PC/IX, was Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-02-03 02:29 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-03 03:24 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-03 10:56 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-03 21:19 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-02-03 21:55 +0000
                "POSIX" ACLs (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2026-02-04 13:47 +0000
                Re: "POSIX" ACLs (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-02-04 15:41 +0000
                Re: "POSIX" ACLs (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2026-02-05 13:33 +0000
                Re: "POSIX" ACLs (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-05 16:13 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-04 18:16 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-04 20:39 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-02-03 15:02 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-02-03 15:22 -0700
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-03 22:32 +0000
                fucking lies [was Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix] Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-02-04 15:29 -0500
                Re: fucking lies [was Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix] cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-04 21:47 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-02-04 15:41 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-02-04 23:43 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-02-05 02:07 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-05 09:05 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-02-05 14:55 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-02-05 10:42 -0700
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-02-01 19:55 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-02 18:05 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-02-04 15:07 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-02-04 09:01 -0700
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-04 19:34 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-02-04 19:37 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-04 20:41 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-04 19:20 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-02-04 19:36 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-04 21:46 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-02-05 15:12 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-02-01 08:12 -0500
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-31 18:19 +0000
          Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-29 20:57 +0000
          Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-30 10:03 +0000
      Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-28 08:06 -0700
        Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-28 14:38 -0500
          Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-28 20:34 +0000
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-28 17:36 -0500
          Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 00:36 +0000
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-01-29 08:43 +0000
              Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-29 15:36 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-29 11:46 -0500
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-29 19:32 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 19:58 +0000
      Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-29 06:30 +0000
        Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-29 12:15 +0000
          Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-29 19:32 +0000
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 19:55 +0000
              Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-30 09:56 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-30 19:02 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-30 11:32 -0800
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-31 05:10 +0000
                Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-02-05 03:04 -0400
              Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-31 11:40 +0000
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix "Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-m6d-this> - 2026-01-31 08:35 -0800
          Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-30 11:59 -0800
          Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-31 11:36 +0000
    Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-01-28 22:26 +0000
      Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-28 20:26 -0700
      Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-30 09:46 +0000
        Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-30 19:18 +0000
          Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-01-31 16:25 +0000
    Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-29 11:22 +0000
  Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-27 16:02 -0800
    Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-28 01:52 +0000
      Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-28 16:12 -0800
        Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-29 00:28 +0000
          Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-30 13:07 -0800
            Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-30 21:21 +0000
        Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-29 14:36 +0000
  Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-28 00:29 +0000
    Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-28 16:11 -0800
      Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 00:54 +0000
  Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-29 11:20 +0000

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